2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumOnly Bernie Sanders Can Prevent Donald Trump From Sitting in the Oval Office
Well, this is interesting.
I cherry picked the snippets, the whole article is an interesting read.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/only-bernie-sanders-can-prevent-trump_b_8367286.html
Hillary Clinton is a polarizing figure for both Republicans and many progressives. Even with polls extolling Clinton's lead within the Democratic Party, underlying data shows that low voter turnout could result in a GOP victory. A CBS News article titled Hillary Clinton still leads Democratic race http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-hillary-clinton-still-leads-democratic-race/ undermines its own title by stating some inconvenient truths regarding favorability numbers:
Just under half of Democratic primary voters nationwide say they would enthusiastically support Clinton if she became the party's nominee. Twenty-seven percent would support her with some reservations and another 11 percent would only back her because she is the nominee. Fourteen percent would not support her in a general election.
In order for any Democrat to win in 2016, a nominee can't have "fourteen percent" of Democratic voters staying home on Election Day and not supporting Clinton in an election. Since there are progressives supporting Bernie Sanders who make me look like Huma Abedin, the possibility of a mutiny of progressives on Election Day, if Clinton is the nominee, isn't just hyperbole. Also, it doesn't bode well for Democrats when "twenty-seven percent would support her with some reservation" and "11 percent would only back her" to prevent a Republican in the White House.
Already, polls show Bernie Sanders beating Trump by a wider margin than Clinton http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/bernie-sanders-defeats-trump-by-a-wider-margin_b_8345156.html . I explain in detail why Sanders can defeat Trump in this YouTube segment. Furthermore, while Sanders showed immense class in saying "Enough of the emails!" Trump would harp endlessly on every scandal and controversy (real or fabricated) associated with both Clintons.
Against Bernie Sanders, Trump would be on the defensive. Everyone knows the reality show host never worries about finances or cares about wealth inequality, or other issues that endear a candidate to the average voter. Bernie Sanders, because he's the antithesis of Trump, would shine in any televised debate and offer voters a clear choice. Because he energizes progressives and the Democratic Party, Bernie Sanders is the only hope for Democrats in 2016. From Supreme Court nominees to the future of our country, only Bernie Sanders can prevent Donald Trump from making historic decisions in the Oval Office.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)How does that translate to defeating repubs in the general?
He's got about 4 months and a tremendous win on Super Tuesday before he could be in the general.
I don't see that happening. A lot if chicken counting while still eggs here I think.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)We are still four months out from the first primary.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)at this stage of the race, Hillary had a huge lead against Obama too
We're talking in a general matchup here against GOP rivals, not primaries
George II
(67,782 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)thesquanderer
(11,954 posts)But *if* he does, he polls strong for the general.
Lots of people haven't even heard of him yet, and yet he polls about as well as HRC does against the Republicans, and sometimes better (i.e. against Trump).
See http://www.270towin.com/2016-polls/2016-general-election-matchups/
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)revive this post in five months.
DrBulldog
(841 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)with the bankers and billionaires I can't imagine. I guess they like to hitch their wagons to the bigger bullies, the big corporations that run America. In 1770 they would have been Loyalists, afraid to fight for freedom and liberty. How they can turn their backs on the problems of poverty, etc. in this country and support corporate profits is Democratic. They seem to welcome the oligarchy.
Support Sen Sanders the Peoples' Choice and turn away Goldman-Sachs.
Politicub
(12,163 posts)Glitter. Lots of glitter.
BainsBane
(53,003 posts)Ever glitter a pumpkin?
Politicub
(12,163 posts)But the night is young.
Indeed, glitter is awesome.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)It doesn't but we all know that including Bernie backers.
Super tuesday will settle this once and for all.
zappaman
(20,605 posts)FloridaBlues
(3,993 posts)zappaman
(20,605 posts)heads up
(55 posts)Socialism is when the workers own the means of production, not the government. Not sure why Anyone would vote for a corporatist.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Reter
(2,188 posts)n/t
thesquanderer
(11,954 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)for the republican's.
Sorry, needs to be said.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)DrBulldog
(841 posts)And so they won't vote for Hillary. But there IS someone they are already very hungry to vote for . . .
SharpProgress
(23 posts)I get it. We all want Bernie to win.
But have you even taken even a moment to think about demographics in a Hillary vs Trump/Carson election?
Woman's vote: HRC
Black Vote: HRC
Hispanic Vote: HRC
It's not like in a presidential election Dems are just going to stay home. She beats every Republican in heads up polling.
As I say in all these threads, this is nothing more than fear mongering, and is without a reasonable basis for the drawn conclusion.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)SharpProgress
(23 posts)Is wrong.
The article says that Bernie polls better, while both Hillary and Bernie are beating Trump. The difference in the polling: 3% and within the polling margin of error.
As I said, this thread is a misrepresentation of the facts. You know this. Stop acting like a Republican. The sky is not falling.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)I'm acting like a Republican? LOL I wasn't aware I was against national healthcare, a minimum wage and other such thing but hey, if you say so, ok then.
Meanwhile. This. http://www.accidentalsocialist.com/new-poll-sanders-is-a-better-general-election-candidate-than-clinton/
Response to SharpProgress (Reply #6)
olddots This message was self-deleted by its author.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)A CBS News article titled Hillary Clinton still leads Democratic race undermines its own title by stating some inconvenient truths regarding favorability numbers:
From the OP.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)MineralMan
(146,192 posts)He'll eliminate himself at some point. Think Marco Rubio. Trump won't be in it at the end, I'm certain.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Did you see the Carson numbers from Iowa today? Just wow.....
emulatorloo
(43,982 posts)A huge percentage of Iowa Republican caucus voters are hard-core evangelical. This year the evangelicals are enamored w Carson. Just a little context to put those numbers into perspective.
onenote
(42,381 posts)One moment you're suggesting that poll numbers this far out shouldn't be relied on (citing the example of Clinton v. Obama at this stage) and the next moment you're relying on this week's numbers showing Carson ahead of Trump as evidence that Trump (or Carson) is a serious candidate.
emulatorloo
(43,982 posts)And Club For Growth is planning a massive ad buy to take Trump down. But who knows maybe Trump can survive that.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)You laugh
I'll read.
Have a nice day
http://www.politicususa.com/2015/10/19/republican-attacks-backfire-bernie-sanders-leads-tied-carson-trump.html
http://crooksandliars.com/2015/07/cnn-poll-bernie-sanders-leads-all
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/05/1427855/-Bernie-Sanders-Most-Electable-Clinton-Implodes-Against-GOP-in-IA-and-NH-Polls
http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/sanders-outperforms-clinton-general-election-match-ups-ia-nh-n438491
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/23/1437597/-Wisconsin-poll-shows-Walker-fail-and-possible-Bernie-strength
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)It is the certain knowledge that Sanders will never be president.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Awful. lol
Next?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I will never agree to government control of the means of production.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)It's 100% made-up horse shit from the right wing.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Government control of the means of production is the very basis of all forms of socialism.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Socialism created the very internet you are currently using. Ever heard of DARPA?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Prior to his run for the Senate he mostly did so without the "Democratic" qualifier.
By definition, he supports government control of the means of production. He needs to say no more than the fact that he is a Socialist.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Why are you using republican tactics on a Democratic website?
Can't you rely on honest arguments to promote your candidate?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Government control of the means of production is the very basis of ALL FORMS of Socialism.
Maybe you need to brush up on what Socialism is.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)You're playing a "Poe"! Went right over my head at first
Well-done!
NRaleighLiberal
(59,940 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)built upon the Scandinavian model.
You're repeating RW talking points.
However some who are currently running are against a $15/hr minimum wage and say it's "too much" and are in league with Wall Street and served as a atty to Monsanto
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)He listed himself as a straight up Socialist in the House as a representative from Vermont.
Furthermore, support of government control of the means of production is the basis for ALL FORMS of Socialism.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)We can do that.
The 90s, like when Hillary supported DADT, NAFTA, DOMA and all of those yummy things?
Ya, let's talk about the 90s shall we?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)And I believe you are confusing Bill Clinton for Hillary Clinton. They are two separate people, you know.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Let' s start here.
TRUE!
Barack Obama on Sunday, February 24th, 2008 in Lorain, Ohio
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/feb/25/barack-obama/clinton-has-changed-on-nafta/
She supported her hubbies little pet project, NAFTA
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)Check her donor roll. Yeah, I'd much rather have someone who doesn't give a crap about me than someone who DOES. I have principles, you see!
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)and twice on Sundays.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)...remember?
pinebox
(5,761 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)saturnsring
(1,832 posts)hell be label a socialist who wants us to be like Denmark which has a 60% tax rate. he will be crushed in the general
pinebox
(5,761 posts)The happiest place on earth to live? Ya let's do that! I'm game! Free health care, college (they actually PAY kids to go to school) paid vacation. less working hours, a living wage. Let's do that!
saturnsring
(1,832 posts)b/c middle America is not going to vote for a socialist whom they media will say is going to raise their taxes to 60% to pay for it a socialist agenda t
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Democratic Socialism calls for private ownership of production.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)You are red baiting
kristopher
(29,798 posts)EVERY COUNTRY (except the likes of Somalia) controls the means of production.
In a healthy society You have to balance Who the production is benefitting. A noted anthropologist pointed out a previously overlooked division in the sphere of "economy". There is a "political economy", which serves the needs of extra-group activity such as defense and external trade, and the "domestic economy" which serves the inner needs of the group in areas such as education, housing, and provision of food.
While there is obviously overlap, when the economic mechanism tilts to one extreme or the other, it is dysfunctional. There is near universal agreement that our system is tilted to an unacceptable extreme. If you deny that, then frankly you aren't worth talking to because there is no place for even the most basic meeting of minds.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Because "government control of the means of production" is not what Sanders is talking about.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)It seems so
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Pick one http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251716331#post20
And they're all saying the same thing. In a general, Bernie does better against GOP opponents than Hillary.
onenote
(42,381 posts)I'm a Bernie supporter, but I'd never rely on anything H. A. Goodman writes. He is motivated by one thing and one thing alone: he hates Clinton.
That's why in the months preceding the article you quote, Goodman wrote an article explaining why he was going to vote for Rand Paul. Then he wrote one entitled "How O'Malley, Webb and Warren can Save the Democrats from Clinton."
It wouldn't surprise me that if Clinton gets the nomination Goodman discovers reasons why we should be voting for Trump.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)You should maybe check the Google. Seeing as how several sources are reporting this, not just one.
onenote
(42,381 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)onenote
(42,381 posts)The reality is that it's too early to make such judgments. Way way way too early.
Look back at 2008. At this stage, several of the polls had Clinton doing better against McCain than Obama. It went back and forth over the next several months.
If Bernie can take some primaries early on, as I hope he does, it will solidify his standing against the repubs. But if he can't overtake Clinton, he will begin to fall off against the repubs -- you can count on it.
So rather than try to make a case based on who can win the General, we should be making the case on the merits of Bernie's positions. Quite honestly, any Democrat -- Bernie or Clinton -- will have a difficult time in the General if the Democrats don't unite behind the nominee and get on with the hard work that is essential for winning an election.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)You would think it would at leave give you pause.
Nowhere does that say it's okay to encourage discussion with people promoting right wing viewpoints. If you quit bringing in right wing sources, like Ann Coulter, then perhaps you wouldn't get so much flak about the Hillary hating crap you post here.
Just Sayin....
emulatorloo
(43,982 posts)Citing Goodman and Ann Coulter (as you did the other day) as 'truth tellers' is a very poor strategic choice on your part.
I want Bernie to win as you do. If you have other sources (which you do) cite them first.
This is strategic tactical advice I am giving you. Of course you are free not to take it.
Undecided primary voters and persuadable/soft HRC primary supporters do not want to hear the opinions of Rand Paul mouth-pieces or duplicitous right-wing commentators.
Using them is a good way to instantly alienate those potential Bernie voters.
That does nothing to help get more people to stand for Bernie on caucus and primary day.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)I'll cite whom I wish. This isn't a "No! I want you to write it this way!" lit forum.
And yet you're calling out a fellow Bernie supporter? Ya that's a win win there isn't it now? lol
emulatorloo
(43,982 posts)As I said you are free to continue down your path, but in my opinion it is counter-productive to your goals.
Have a nice afternoon.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)will be easier to beat'.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)for example he is against the TPP, he has expressed potential support for a single-payer type system for healthcare, he's turning down super PAC money., He's going to have a tremendous amount of crossover appeal to independents and conservative Democrats. Especially those who are ambivalent about Hillary or out right hate her. Hillary will not be able to overcome what ever presidential candidate they come up with. Bernie will crush any of them easily. His biggest problem is hrc in the primary, not the general election Republican. Which is kind of ironic and discouraging, but I still think he's going to take it all the way.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)as if he isn't playing the game the rest of the GOP are already employing....and that is to damage Hillary as much as possible, play it quiet with Sanders, in order to help Sanders along the Primary way. The GOP are going out of their way to ignore Sanders. One day Trump slipped up and pounced on Sanders, and then remebered that Sanders was supposed to be assisted and not hurt in the Primaries. Notice that nothing has been said since? Once the GOP goes full throttle on Bernie, the numbers will swing wildly and the Bernie will have been repsonsible for ushering in the era of Trump.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)he could never withstand the shit that has been hurled at hillary for 20+ years. He looks good because they are helping his look good in the famous polls that Bernie Supporters hate, except when the talking points are convenient.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Sanders if you think he has never been attacked by anyone. He handles Repubicans better than anyone I have ever seen, as his long record of doing so, demonstrates.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)and held to a much gentler, kinder standard of political attacks.
AND Trump isn't going to get the GOP nod, so there is that.
emulatorloo
(43,982 posts)It really defies logic. He's a liar.
I have no fucking clue who he really wants to run against. All I know is that I wouldn't believe a word he said even if his tongue came notarized.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)on DU. Bernie is trashing him in polls, and he knows it.
I guess now those scientific polls are no longer scientific, or whatever.
emulatorloo
(43,982 posts)As if they are paragons of truth. They are notorious for lying. He's a duplicitous jerk.
The polling looks great for Bernie. Let's leave Trump quotes to the gullible Freepers.
Of course you should do whatever you want, I am simply expressing my opinion about Donanld Trump's lack of credibility.
Have a nice afternoon.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)would never be disingenuous about such a thing.
zappaman
(20,605 posts)I don't.
moobu2
(4,822 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)That's awesome, I wonder what all the others authors say too? Fascinating.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251716331#post20
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)WI_DEM
(33,497 posts)Now Carson is the flavor of the week. He is tops over Trump in two new polls out of Iowa. Trump's support, I'd say, is a mile wide and only an inch deep. If he loses Iowa he'll see his support collapse everywhere.
p.s.
I think any democrat we nominate could beat Trump or any Republican.
DFW
(54,055 posts)The probability that the Republican Party will run Donald Trump as their nominee for POTUS is in fractions of a per cent IMHO. Therefore, how Trump would fare against Bernie, Hillary, or the Jolly Green Giant is of little consequence.
We're not gonna find out, not that we cared all that much in the first place (I hope!).
Gore1FL
(21,032 posts)Any of our potential nominees can beat him in a general.
Persondem
(1,936 posts)He just pissed of the whole state of Iowa with a dumbass tweet.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)DrBulldog
(841 posts)He alone already has about 2/3 support from the 75,000,000 millennials in this country, of which only 10% voted in the last federal elections.
If no house of Congress can be carried by the Democrats, then what does it matter who's elected? Bernie has already told you that! Just four more years of diatribe and stagnation will ensue.
The millennials will never vote for Hillary. She will just sit in the Oval Office with a weak smile for four years unable to do anything - or worst yet, to give up and cave to the Republicans.
Robbins
(5,066 posts)Dems don't care.they are in such ahurry to vote clinton.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Lukewarm enthusiasm from the Democrats means low voter turnout, plus less than tepid support from independents (barely 27 percent of independents hold a favorable view of Clinton), plus rabid hate from the right and everyone else is an equation for losing the GE.
No coattails for other Democrats, no majorities in Congress and a Commander in Chief that no one trusts and who actually represents the 1% (as soon as the primaries are over) and that the Republicans will spend all their energy tying into knots.
At this point, the only candidate that can bypass this dumbfuck scenario is Sanders.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)LOL
on edit-isn't
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)Don't take DSB's word for it. Check IA and NAT'L aggregate polling...
Most of his campaign rests on him bragging about leading in the polls...Once he loses this bragging/talking point his descent will be precipitous.
moabfan
(48 posts)Clinton's performance has nothing to do with the current issues at hand.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)of President Hillary Clinton's White House???? How rude!
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,110 posts)Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)Sanders, but she has better that a 50%-50% chance against Trump.
Sanders matches better (for us) with Trump ; but Clinton matches OK, too.
GoneOffShore
(17,309 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)When Donald Trump quits the race on or before the "SEC Primary" can we all agree Mr. Goodman is a political novice who should be opining about anything but politics?
Thank you in advance.
Quixote1818
(28,904 posts)He will be lucky to get 20%. He has almost no chance unless a big scandal hits the Democratic candidate.