Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 11:24 AM Oct 2015

Campaign "donations" and plutocracy.

One can pretend that 100 Goldman Sachs employees (such as Timothy Geithner before he was appointed Secretary of the Treasury) making the maximum contribution is no different than 100 John or Jane Does making contributions, but that doesn't make it so. The employees of Big Banks/Pharma/Ag/etc. know full well that the company's interests are their interests. They know who butters their bread, so to speak.

Of course the contributions come from individuals, as corporations are made up of individuals. But the interests of the individuals match the interests of the corporate entity to whom the candidate is then beholden. And the fact is that Clinton, like most politicians, gets a massive sum from Wall Street, no matter how you choose to spin it. Not only in the form of campaign contributions but also in the form of speaking fees. To suggest that doesn't then greatly influence policy is the height of naivete. Wall Street has far more influence on public policy than "we the people." In fact, pieces of federal legislation have actually been written by the likes of Citigroup. You may want to read that last sentence more than once if you don't fully grasp the extent to which the US is plutocratic. Now, when's the last time you or I were asked to write legislation?

Furthermore, there's a revolving door between industry and public office, between regulatory agencies and the regulated. For the wealthy in the US, bribery and corruption is essentially legal. And when employees of Beacon Global Strategies, for instance, are advisors to the Clinton campaign, you're a fool if you think that doesn't come with strings attached. When Corrections Corporation of America makes donations, you're a fool if you think that doesn't come with strings attached.

Lawrence Lessig to Bill Moyers:

"I mean, we have the data to show this now. There was a Princeton study by Martin Gilens and Ben Page. The largest empirical study of actual policy decisions by our government in the history of our government. And what they did is they related our actual decisions to what the economic elite care about, what the organized interest groups care about, and what the average voter cares about.

And when they look at the economic elite, you know, as the percentage of economic elite who support an idea goes up, the probability of it passing goes up. As the organized interests care about something more and more, the probability of it passing goes up. But as the average voter cares about something, it has no effect at all, statistically no effect at all on the probability of it passing. If we can go from zero percent of the average voters caring about something to 100 percent and it doesn't change the probability of it actually being enacted. And when you look at those numbers, that graph, this flat line, that flat line is a metaphor for our democracy. Our democracy is flat lined. Because when you can show clearly there's no relationship between what the average voter cares about, only if it happens to coincide with what the economic elite care about, you've shown that we don't have a democracy anymore."


Robert Jensen in this piece:

"No matter who votes in elections, powerful unelected forces—the captains of industry and finance—set the parameters of political action. Voting matters, but it matters far less than most people believe, or want to believe. This raises the impolite question of whether democracy and capitalism are compatible. Is political equality possible amid widening economic inequality? Can power be distributed when wealth is concentrated?

These questions remain unspeakable in mainstream political circles, even though the economic inequality continues to widen and the distorting effects of concentrated wealth are more evident than ever. The limited successes of the Occupy movement nudged this into view, but this impolite question must be central in our conversations, raised without sectarian rhetoric and with a clearer analysis of the foundational nature of the problem.

Let me be clear: I’m not suggesting that there is nothing democratic about the contemporary United States, nor am I suggesting that we live in a fascist state. It’s important to avoid rhetorical overkill. Rather, I’m simply recognizing that, counter to the mythology of the United States, no existing nation-state is a democracy in any deep sense. The question is, to what degree are the features of a society—not just the formal political process, but the economic and social structures as well—truly democratic. Formulating the question that way opens up a more meaningful discussion of those realities."



The US is oligarchic/plutocratic and has been for ages. All that said, let's be clear that Clinton is merely a symptom, not a cause. Far too much focus is put on individual politicians. It's the system, stupid. Clinton will likely be the next POTUS, and there's no doubt a Clinton presidency would be better than, say, a Rubio or Trump presidency. But corruption will still be the name of the game when it comes to US federal level politics.
15 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
1. Politicians represent those who pay them, period.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 11:56 AM
Oct 2015

If that happens to be a stack of Wall Street "individuals," it still holds. They should come with sponsorship stickers, like race cars.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
2. They represent certain people who pay them.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 02:54 PM
Oct 2015

100 John Does don't get represented in the way 100 Goldman Sachs employees do. That some wish to insist otherwise is both sad and stunning.

Many years ago William Least Heat-Moon wrote in Blue Highways about built-in obsolescence and said Ronald McDonald should be on the dollar bill and the national bird should be the Kentucky Fried Chicken. So, this isn't anything new, but the corporate takeover is far more comprehensive now. The Powell Memo was sort of the blueprint.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
3. Agreed. But a million "John Does?"
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 03:38 PM
Oct 2015

Elected leaders are supposed to pursue the common good. So we need to ensure they owe more to the "commoners," than to a few specific interests.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
7. But that won't be accomplished via campaign contributions.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 06:57 PM
Oct 2015

A million John/Jane Does can donate and "we the people" still won't have the influence that Big Banks/Pharma/Ag/MIC/etc. have. The candidate will gladly take your contribution, but you and I won't be invited to write legislation the way corporations are. You and I won't benefit from deregulation, tax loopholes, limited liability, bankruptcy protection, etc.

As Jensen wrote, "the captains of industry and finance set the parameters of political action." And, as Lessig points out, the plutocratic nature of our political system is empirically proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
9. It certainly could. If we establish
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 07:10 PM
Oct 2015

that you don't need X-PAC to win elections, X-PAC suddenly has a lot less influence.

Votes still determine elections. What's getting in the way is the idea that money = votes, and the fact that business interests will always be able to consolidate more money than individuals.

But get enough individuals involved, or even just show that corporate donations don't ensure election, and the game is up.

We're seeing some of this already. Fully purchased politicians like Scott Walker and Chris Christie can't get traction. Zillions in "dark money" has gone down the drain without dictating the outcome of elections.

If we demonstrate, just a few times, that policies and votes mean more than campaign dollars, or just that individual contributions are enough to support a candidate, we can break the spell. The Koch brothers can spend all the money in the world, and ALEC can write all the model legislation it wants, but if their "guys" get thrown out on their collective ears, they've lost.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
11. Money's influence on elections has been overstated.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 07:15 PM
Oct 2015

It's not meaningless, but it has been overstated, as numerous studies have shown. Money's influence on public policy, however, can't be underestimated. Money, as Jensen wrote, sets the parameters of political action.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
12. It's more that it's "how the game is played."
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 07:28 PM
Oct 2015

It's not that "some" legislation is written by corporations and lobbying firms. It's so commonplace it's practically the norm.

A lot of elected officials just get used to taking their orders from insiders, and don't even think of voters as part of the process.

A friend went to the Florida Legislature in Tallahassee, and related how a state senator seemed utterly flustered that a group of people, as opposed to lobbyists or lawyers or big-time donors were "asking for things." "Things" in this case were women's reproductive rights, in the form of opposition to a proposed "waiting period" for women seeking abortions.

She reminded him that those other people ask for things, from tax breaks to legislation, for their own benefit all the time.

He just kind of vapor-locked and stared at her. I think it had genuinely never occurred to him that regular human beings even had the right to argue for their own interests.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
13. Billions are at stake.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 10:15 PM
Oct 2015

"$10,000 in kick-backs" from a post below. LOL! These aren't mom and pop shops. These are trillion-dollar corporations/multinationals.

They write the damn laws.

They get bailed out (no strings attached debt forgiveness).

They get bankruptcy protection.

They get massive tax breaks.

They get zero-interest loans from the Fed.

They get deregulated.

They get limited liability protection.

They get cabinet posts.

Corporations and multinationals aren't people. They have far more rights than people. When's the last time John Q Public got to write legislation or got debt forgiveness or got to pollute at will thanks to deregulation? That intelligent people don't see this is too hard to believe. It's that they don't *want* to see it, like a kid doesn't want to believe there's no Santa. It's too disheartening, too overwhelming. So, they cling to absurd notions like the US being a democracy or the idea that $500,000 from Goldman Sachs employees has no more impact on policy than $500,000 from 25,000 John/Jane Does who each donate $20. Or the idea that amounts paid to a candidate for a speaking engagement has no influence on policy. Or the idea that campaign advisers from the likes of Beacon Global Strategies aren't influence peddling. Or the idea that people who go back and forth between regulatory agencies and industries that are to be regulated aren't essentially foxes watching the hen house. It's a level of denial on par with anthropogenic climate change denial or evolution denial. And when it comes from progressives, it's especially frustrating, because progressives - as a collective - are the only hope we have. Bribery and corruption has been legalized. For the economic elite, that is.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
4. The idea that individuals are going to donate $2700 to a campaign as a form of bribery is absurd.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 04:25 PM
Oct 2015

Especially bank executives. Say what you will about them, but one thing they are good at is calculating return on investment, and the return on investment of a $2700 campaign contribution, in terms of individual compensation, is tiny. Anyone who thinks that a $2700 contribution to a campaign is going to return more than $2700 to them personally does not work in finance.

This is why the difference between individual donations and corporate donations is so important. If an individual donates money to a campaign in the hopes of influencing policy, whatever tiny influence that donation might be able to buy would benefit an entire industry, so the fraction of the benefit that goes to them personally will be minuscule. A large corporation, on the other hand, could benefit quite a bit from influence on policy, which is why corporate donations to campaigns are illegal.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
5. The interest of the individual is the interest of the corporation.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 06:50 PM
Oct 2015

When the industry benefits, the individual employees (particularly at the upper level) benefit far more than you're suggesting. Pay goes up, bonuses go up, the ability to exploit deregulation goes up. What's absurd is suggesting that Clinton getting $500,000 from Goldman Sachs employees is no different, or has no more impact on policy positions, than Clinton getting $500,000 from 25,000 John/Jane Does. You'd be a fool to believe that. And campaign contributions are not the only form of influence peddling. Speaking fees, campaign advising and so-called charitable donations all represent forms of influence peddling.

Again, it's not just Clinton. Clinton is a symptom of a system that has legalized corruption and bribery. The Powell Memo was the blueprint, and Citizens United merely compounded a problem that already existed.

For cryin' out loud, the likes of Citigroup are writing federal legislation. Big Banks, Big Pharma, Big Ag, the weapons industry, the prison industrial complex et al. are writing our laws. The denial of this is maddening. I expect it from right wing "free market" types. Not from progressives. And I'm not bashing Clinton. I'm bashing legalized corruption.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
8. Completely missing the point.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 06:58 PM
Oct 2015

For an individual to contribute $2700 to a campaign with the expectation of getting at least $2700 back in terms of higher pay and bonuses would be truly stupid. First, $2700 isn't going to make any noticeable difference, and it's certainly not going to change anyone's policies. And even if it did accomplish some kind of bribery type influence, the effects of that would be spread over an entire industry with millions of employees.

Which means that, even if a $2700 contribution gets you something, let's say, $10,000 in kick-backs of some kind, the individual making the contribution would only see a few pennies of that. The rest of the kick-back would go to other people in the industry. For an individual to try to contribute a few thousand dollars to a campaign as a form of bribe is just stupid. And bankers know this better than anyone.

Like I said, this is why the difference between corporate contributions and individual contributions is so important. And it's also why corporate contributions to campaigns are illegal.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
10. Yes, you are missing the point.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 07:11 PM
Oct 2015

You can harp on the $2700 all you want (and ignore all other points, such as the fact that legislation is literally being written by these corporations), but the sum total from all employees is what matters, because that's what influences policy in the favor of entities such as Goldman Sachs. Those benefits (forms of deregulation, limited liability, bailouts, etc.) amount to BILLIONS in some cases, and those billions are then distributed. Yes, some get more than others, but everyone donating knows full well that when the company benefits they benefit in ways that far outweigh their pocket change donation. This is why it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that getting $500,000 from Goldman Sachs has no more influence on policy than getting $500,000 from 25,000 John/Jane Does.

That the economic elite have far more influence on public policy than the average voter is empirically proven. Deny that all you want, but it won't change the reality.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
14. You can't ignore WHO is giving the money. If that person is a CEO of a Wall Street Bank, it matters.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 10:19 PM
Oct 2015

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
15. And it's about much more than giving money.
Wed Oct 28, 2015, 12:37 AM
Oct 2015

Almost unimaginable corruption has been legalized. Chris Hedges interviewed John Ralston Saul, and I think it's crucial that people grasp what they discuss. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLNAlnQ4hvLtT60m2iHgSKw2uZsQ6hmOxQ&v=GCqKYftRVE8

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»Campaign "donations&...