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Sun Nov 15, 2015, 12:51 PM

 

1 Winner and 3 Losers from the Democratic Debate

Last edited Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:29 PM - Edit history (1)

the section on guns. Sanders is simply not where the Democratic base has been on this issue ever since the Newtown shooting in December 2012. Representing Vermont, he voted to immunize gun dealers from lawsuits, and voted against the Brady Bill, a major gun control law passed in 1993. But instead of straightforwardly saying, "I was wrong. I underestimated the damage that guns do in this country, and I will commit to tough measures going forward," he was extremely defensive, and repeatedly invoked his Vermont background. Here he is when asked if voting to immunize gun companies was a mistake:

BERNIE SANDERS: There are parts of that bill I agree with, parts I disagree. I am certainly, absolutely, willing to look at that bill again and make sure there's a stronger bill.

That's really, really weak sauce. So were his Rodney King-esque "why can't we all just get along" comments on the gun debate:

BERNIE SANDERS: I don't know the difference on guns between us. But I believe coming from a state that has virtually no gun control, I believe that I am in position to reach out to the 60% or 70% of the American people who agree with us on those issues. The problem, people all over this country — not you, secretary Clinton — are shouting at each other. And what we need to do is bring people together to work on the agreement where there is broad consensus and that's what I intend to do.



http://www.vox.com/2015/11/14/9737212/democratic-debate-winners-losers-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton

I'll just leave this here:
http://www.salon.com/2015/11/04/bernie_sanders_latest_racial_blind_spot_hillarys_right_on_gun_control_urban_vs_rural_really_means_black_vs_white/

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Reply 1 Winner and 3 Losers from the Democratic Debate (Original post)
bravenak Nov 2015 OP
99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #1
bravenak Nov 2015 #2
99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #5
bravenak Nov 2015 #8
99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #18
bravenak Nov 2015 #22
99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #26
bravenak Nov 2015 #27
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #101
99th_Monkey Nov 2015 #118
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #122
bravenak Nov 2015 #126
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #127
bravenak Nov 2015 #128
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #129
bravenak Nov 2015 #131
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #132
bravenak Nov 2015 #133
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #134
bravenak Nov 2015 #135
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #136
bravenak Nov 2015 #137
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #139
bravenak Nov 2015 #140
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #141
bravenak Nov 2015 #142
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #143
bravenak Nov 2015 #144
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #146
bravenak Nov 2015 #147
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #148
bravenak Nov 2015 #149
beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #150
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #157
Post removed Nov 2015 #156
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #155
bravenak Nov 2015 #161
sheshe2 Nov 2015 #166
bravenak Nov 2015 #167
sheshe2 Nov 2015 #168
bravenak Nov 2015 #170
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #78
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #83
bravenak Nov 2015 #90
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #95
bravenak Nov 2015 #96
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #99
bravenak Nov 2015 #100
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #102
bravenak Nov 2015 #105
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #106
bravenak Nov 2015 #107
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #112
bravenak Nov 2015 #119
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #120
bravenak Nov 2015 #124
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #110
bravenak Nov 2015 #111
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #113
bravenak Nov 2015 #115
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #121
bravenak Nov 2015 #125
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #138
bravenak Nov 2015 #145
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #151
bravenak Nov 2015 #152
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #153
bravenak Nov 2015 #154
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #158
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #159
bravenak Nov 2015 #162
Cha Nov 2015 #171
bravenak Nov 2015 #172
Cha Nov 2015 #173
bravenak Nov 2015 #175
Cha Nov 2015 #176
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #7
bravenak Nov 2015 #9
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #12
bravenak Nov 2015 #15
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #21
bravenak Nov 2015 #23
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #28
bravenak Nov 2015 #33
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #57
bravenak Nov 2015 #58
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #60
bravenak Nov 2015 #64
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #69
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #70
bravenak Nov 2015 #79
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #67
bravenak Nov 2015 #75
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #80
bravenak Nov 2015 #84
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #114
bravenak Nov 2015 #116
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #103
bravenak Nov 2015 #104
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #63
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #55
bravenak Nov 2015 #61
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #65
bravenak Nov 2015 #68
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #71
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #76
bravenak Nov 2015 #85
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #73
bravenak Nov 2015 #86
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #108
bravenak Nov 2015 #109
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #117
bravenak Nov 2015 #123
CountAllVotes Nov 2015 #17
Mass Nov 2015 #3
bravenak Nov 2015 #4
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #6
bravenak Nov 2015 #10
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #16
bravenak Nov 2015 #24
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #31
bravenak Nov 2015 #32
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #42
bravenak Nov 2015 #44
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #45
bravenak Nov 2015 #47
Evergreen Emerald Nov 2015 #11
bravenak Nov 2015 #13
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #72
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #82
bravenak Nov 2015 #87
Number23 Nov 2015 #91
bravenak Nov 2015 #93
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #97
bravenak Nov 2015 #98
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #19
99Forever Nov 2015 #29
Evergreen Emerald Nov 2015 #38
99Forever Nov 2015 #130
tammywammy Nov 2015 #169
Eric J in MN Nov 2015 #49
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #62
BumRushDaShow Nov 2015 #14
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #20
BumRushDaShow Nov 2015 #34
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #35
BumRushDaShow Nov 2015 #37
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #39
BumRushDaShow Nov 2015 #40
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #41
BumRushDaShow Nov 2015 #48
petronius Nov 2015 #43
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #46
BumRushDaShow Nov 2015 #51
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #59
BumRushDaShow Nov 2015 #81
BumRushDaShow Nov 2015 #50
petronius Nov 2015 #52
BumRushDaShow Nov 2015 #56
bravenak Nov 2015 #25
jamzrockz Nov 2015 #30
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #36
jamzrockz Nov 2015 #53
Armstead Nov 2015 #54
bravenak Nov 2015 #66
Armstead Nov 2015 #74
bravenak Nov 2015 #77
Armstead Nov 2015 #89
bravenak Nov 2015 #92
Number23 Nov 2015 #88
bravenak Nov 2015 #94
Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #160
bravenak Nov 2015 #163
sheshe2 Nov 2015 #164
bravenak Nov 2015 #165
Name removed Nov 2015 #174

Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 12:57 PM

1. If you're looking for 'weak sauce' look no further than Hillary's 9-11 excuse for taking Wall St. $$

 

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 12:58 PM

2. Or Bernie's excuses on guns.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:01 PM

5. Or Hillary's "I made a mistake" voting for the Bush/Cheney Iraq War -nt-

 

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:04 PM

8. Or Bernie refusing to ever admit that his vote for mass incarceration was devastating to my

 

community. Manditory minimums. Non violent offenders locked up for decades. He COULD address that issue. I do not expect him to since he cannot be wrong ever. Bill apologized.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:14 PM

18. Oh, you must mean the 1994 CLINTON Administration's Crime Bill, that Hillary crusaded for?

 

.. and then Bernie acted like a "Loyal Democrat" and voted for it, including it's Federal Assault Weapons Ban?

That bill?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_Enforcement_Act

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:20 PM

22. So you admit he was wrong? Good. I like living in reality. THEY ALL SCREWED UP!!! ALL OF THEM!!

 

Even him. See? I can admit that Bill and Hillary screwed my community. As did all who voted for it. Including the Senator. He will never address it and I will always give him my special side eye. No better than they are. Not on this issue. Nobody can discuss it from his side without bringing up Bill or Hillary. He is never wrong. Ever. Even if he voted for it and she merely supported it, she is somehow WAY MORE WRONG. So disingenuous. That's why I cannot abide the idea of letting this go unmentioned, constantly. Nobody admits anything, ever.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:24 PM

26. I did NOT say Sanders wasn't "wrong" to vote for Clinton's Crime Bill, I put it into context

 

Sorry for the double negative, but that said .. It's rather obvious that Sanders was wrong to vote for that.
I don't dispute that, and doubt that Bernie would either...

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:25 PM

27. Thank GOD!

 

Thank you, really. Finally a bit of sanity.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:36 PM

101. Bernie voted for it because of the Violence Against Women Act and ban on assault weapons:

Sanders opposed the Violent Crime Prevention Act of 1991 during his first year in the U.S. House of Representatives.

"All over the industrialized world now, countries are saying, ‘let us put an end to state murder, let us stop capital punishment’," Sanders said in a 1991 speech on the House floor. "But here what we’re talking about is more and more capital punishment."

The bill, which included provisions to authorize the death penalty as appropriate punishment for crimes involving the murder of a law enforcement officer, terrorism and drug trafficking, never reached the desk of President George H.W. Bush.

In 1994, however, Sanders voted in favor of the final version of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, a bill that expanded the federal death penalty. Sanders had voted for an amendment to the bill that would have replaced all federal death sentences with life in prison. Even though the amendment failed, Sanders still voted for the larger crime bill.

A spokesman for Sanders said he voted for the bill "because it included the Violence Against Women Act and the ban on certain assault weapons."

Sanders reiterated his opposition to capital punishment in 2015. "I just don’t think the state itself, whether it’s the state government or federal government, should be in the business of killing people," he said on a radio show.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/02/viral-image/where-do-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-stand-/




Bernie Sanders in 1991 on crime, punishment and poverty:




That poster has been told this repeatedly but doesn't seem to get it.

She's voting for someone who promoted the bill and bashing someone who only voted for it because it helped women and gun control.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #101)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:04 PM

118. Yep. .. and if Bernie had NOT voted for it, he'd be attacked as a "gun nut" even more-so

 

Whatever Bernie does, the Clinton Smear Machine gins-up some hair-brained
gotcha fabrication.

He's also being attacked for actually ... gasp! .. ATTENDING a fund-raiser for the
DSCC at Martha's Vineyard back in July. .. to raise money to make sure the
Democrats retain control of the US Senate. Can you imagine the attacks if
he has "snubbed" the event, he'd be "disloyal" ... it's cray cray.

If Bernie bought a package of Girl Scout Cookies, he'd be attacked because
they were made with "GMO Flour".

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #118)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:07 PM

122. And they would have said he was pro-violence against women.

Bashing someone who voted for the bill while supporting the person who promoted it - I don't think logic is the op's strong suit.


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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #122)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:14 PM

126. Now we just know he is pro mass incarceration. As shown by his vote in favor of it.

 

Who did that affect most of all? I guess we should just forget about them, then? Don't they matter at all? They are PEOPLE!!! Millions of black men lost. It saddens me.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #126)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:14 PM

127. If black lives matter so much why are you pro-death penalty?

The death penalty is inherently racist, I'm surprised you support it.

Seems illogical to me.


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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #127)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:18 PM

128. I think the entire system needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt.

 

What about you? Only care about the death penalty or do you actually care about the men getting convicted by all white or mostly white juries who do not get the death penalty? The ones locked up under the omnibus crime bill? Oh, I know, I'm racist against myself. Ummm hmmm. Yeah right.
http://www.salon.com/2015/11/04/bernie_sanders_latest_racial_blind_spot_hillarys_right_on_gun_control_urban_vs_rural_really_means_black_vs_white/

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Response to bravenak (Reply #128)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:22 PM

129. Obama discussed the difference between urban and rural gun use after Sandy Hook, is he racist?:

I have a profound respect for the traditions of hunting that trace back in this country for generations and I think those who dismiss that out of hand make a big mistake."

His comments come in the wake of the shootings last month in Newtown, Conn. The killing of 20 children in the town has spurred gun-control advocates to seek restriction on the ownership of certain firearms such as military-style assault rifles.

"Part of being able to move this forward is understanding the reality of guns in urban areas are very different from the realities of guns in rural areas. And if you grew up and your dad gave you a hunting rifle when you were ten, and you went out and spent the day with him and your uncles, and that became part of your family's traditions, you can see why you'd be pretty protective of that.

"So it's trying to bridge those gaps that I think is going to be part of the biggest task over the next several months. And that means that advocates of gun control have to do a little more listening than they do sometimes."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/01/27/170393072/gun-control-advocates-should-listen-more-obama-says


And your candidate slammed Obama and claimed she understood the gun culture:

Hillary hits Obama on faith, guns

Yesterday, Clinton hit Obama for calling Pennsylvanians "bitter," ground on which he fairly ably engaged.
Today, she's onto the other half of his San Francisco remarks, in which he linked economic frustration to clinging to religion and guns (the part he sought to walk back this morning in Muncie, Ind.).

"Sen. Obama's remarks are elitist, and they are out of touch," Clinton said. "The people of faith I know don't 'cling to' religion because they're bitter. ... I also disagree with Sen. Obama's assertion that people in this country 'cling to guns' and have certain attitudes about immigration or trade simply out of frustration. People of all walks of life hunt — and they enjoy doing so because it's an important part of their life, not because they are bitter."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/04/hillary-hits-obama-on-faith-guns-007747



There goes that logic of yours again.

And btw, I've always been anti-death penalty, unlike others who support it because it suits their agenda du jour.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #129)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:25 PM

131. Obama is Black

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #131)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:26 PM

132. No kidding. So why is it racist when Bernie mentions it but not when Obama does?

Or when your candidate campaigned on God Gunz and glory last time around?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #133)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:28 PM

134. Can you explain why citing urban/rural gun differences is racist only when Bernie discusses it?

And not when Obama and Hillary do the same thing.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #135)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:31 PM

136. Obama did it after Sandy Hook, how far back does it have to be to not be racist?

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #136)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:32 PM

137. It is never racist from Obama

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #137)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:33 PM

139. So citing the difference between rural and urban gun use is only racist when Bernie discusses it.

And only if it's recent.

Please explain the logic behind that rationale.

How is a fact not racist because of skin colour and/or chronology?

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #139)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:40 PM

140. Do rural folks not die from gun violence?

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #140)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:41 PM

141. If it's racist when one cites a fact how is it not racist when someone else does the same thing?

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #141)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:42 PM

142. It is racist when a black person say the n word?

 

It is racist when a white person does it? There is your difference. Taa daa!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #142)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:44 PM

143. Facts aren't slurs, how can citing a fact only be racist when Bernie does it?

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #143)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:49 PM

144. It was when she did it too. She stopped. He is still going with it.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #144)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:53 PM

146. Obama said the same thing in 2013. How are facts racist?

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #146)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:54 PM

147. He is black

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #147)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:55 PM

148. That doesn't explain how facts are racist. Please elaborate.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #148)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:56 PM

149. No

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #149)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:58 PM

150. Okay. n/t

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #150)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 06:14 PM

157. Just crazy

 

WOW!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #137)


Response to bravenak (Reply #131)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 06:10 PM

155. WTF does that matter

 

OMG, you might just want to stop digging

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #155)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 11:40 PM

161. Obama's race is germane to the discussion.

 

You really need to let it go.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #161)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 12:25 AM

166. Yikes!

I am with you sweetie.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #166)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 12:29 AM

167. Thank you!!

 

This was a strange conversation....

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Response to bravenak (Reply #167)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 12:31 AM

168. No shit.

Lot of that here tonight.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #168)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 12:36 AM

170. Guuuurllll, yes!

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:55 PM

78. Hillary has private prison lobbyists fundraising for her

 

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #78)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:59 PM

83. Pesky facts again

 

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #78)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:06 PM

90. How does that change the fact that Bernie voted for it? It doesn't. At least admit it was a bad vote

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #90)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:26 PM

95. Facts are stubborn things

 

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #95)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:28 PM

96. Yes. Like the fact the he voted for the omnibus crime bill. Stubborn fact.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #96)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:31 PM

99. Private prisons are doing her fundraising

 

Your outrage is misguided. Most likely intentionally.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #99)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:35 PM

100. And his vote helped fill those facilities up.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #100)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:46 PM

102. He seeks to BAN private prisons TODAY

 

Hillary has them doing her fundraising TODAY. You are taking both sides of the issue.

You need to make up your mind what is really important to you. Ending mass incarceration, or 'Hillary!'. Can't have both.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #102)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:55 PM

105. Well NOW he does. Millions already suffering.

 

Running for president may have helped him evolve

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Response to bravenak (Reply #105)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:56 PM

106. And NOW she doesnt

 

It's pretty simple and obvious.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #106)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:57 PM

107. She has time. He evolved. So can she. She does it often.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #107)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:00 PM

112. Way to often

 

She has no positions

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #112)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:05 PM

119. His are too rigid, uncompromising

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #107)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:05 PM

120. So you are hoping she evolves into Sanders position?

 

lol

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #120)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:11 PM

124. John Lewis'.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #100)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:59 PM

110. And she supported that legislation at the same time

 

Not to mention, her husband signed it. She references his administration all the time.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #110)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:00 PM

111. She did not have a vote

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #111)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:00 PM

113. She had an opinion and she stated it

 

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #113)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:03 PM

115. And his vote helped seal the deal.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #115)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:06 PM

121. Private prisons are sealing the deal

 

By doing her fundraising for her.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #121)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:11 PM

125. He helped fill them

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #125)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:33 PM

138. She fills them now

 

She takes their money now. She has them running her campaign now.

You are taking both sides of the issue.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #138)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:50 PM

145. She hold no public office

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #145)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:58 PM

151. She is running for president

 

Are you now arguing she isn't fit for office?



Hard to tell which side of the issue you are on. You seem to side with the private prison industry.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #151)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:59 PM

152. Umm hmmm

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #152)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 06:01 PM

153. If only there was a third side of the issue

 

that you could take. Then you would have a trifecta.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #153)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 06:03 PM

154. No need. He fills it up and she gets paid, right?

 

Maybe she'll donate to his campaign. I am not the one who is starry eyed over a politician. I know they are not regular people. I do not expect much.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #154)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 06:17 PM

159. Yes you are starry eyed

 

You are just against the one that is not the right....... or ........

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #159)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 11:40 PM

162. I like him even less after these interactions.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #162)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 01:56 AM

171. I know.. BS fans don't know the damage they do when they campaign in his name like this.

I've seen it too many times.. they started out liking Bernie and then his supporters just ruined it for him.

They like to ask "how can you change because of us.. you have to look at what sanders says.. etc etc.." well it's hard to differentiate between the two when he's being pushed hard down people's throats by personally attacking them.

And, many are hearing what sanders is saying and not liking it so much.

Thank you for your OP, brave..

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Response to Cha (Reply #171)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 02:02 AM

172. I just do not get it.

 

If the can see that people are just getting pissed, why continue? This i what I mean by Hillary changes hearts and minds. Her supporters do not chase you and try to force you to love her, they let others chase you right into her arms.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #172)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 02:33 AM

173. they can't help themselves.. they're just aggressive like a bull in china shop, not aware

of the breakage.

I do think Hillary has some of the nicest supporters on the whole.. we've been friends for years supporting President Obama on a mostly hostile democratic board because Obama isn't pure enough.

And here we are.. and chase you they did.

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Response to Cha (Reply #173)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 03:36 AM

175. I'm glad they ran me off!!

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #175)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 04:12 AM

176. lol Funny ol world..

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:03 PM

7. 9/11 and woman

 

Nice excuses

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:04 PM

9. Bernie on guns

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:11 PM

12. AWB, magazine size limits

 

And universal background checks. To bad that is not good enough.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:12 PM

15. The lack of empathy also bugs me.

 

I think a leader needs a deep understanding of the human factor.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:18 PM

21. Sure

 

Just like Hillary and her evolving positions bother me. I know it has not stopped and she will evolve far to the right for the general when she does not need to adopt Bernie's positions.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:21 PM

23. And he will never understand my pov.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:29 PM

28. Too bad, he is a good man that you give absolutely no credit

 

For anything. I think I know why too.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:40 PM

33. He can never admit a fault.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:42 PM

57. Bernie isn't the problem

 

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #57)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:43 PM

58. The rest of the world should change to suit him. I know.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #58)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:44 PM

60. Bernie isn't the problem

 

Bernie is sound, unlike many of his uninformed detractors.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #60)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:46 PM

64. He is perfection!!! We should genuflect, perhaps?

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #64)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:49 PM

69. He is consistent. It's that simple.

 

As opposed to those throwing turds at the wall, trying to see what sticks. Cuz, perfection and stuff...

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Response to bravenak (Reply #64)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:49 PM

70. No he is not

 

Just a lot better than the candidate from Wall Street that constantly evolves and has not set positions. Don't get to pissed when she evolves away from your positions.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #70)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:56 PM

79. I do not expect politicians to do what I want.

 

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #60)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:47 PM

67. There are at least two things

 

I can think of why she is so against Bernie but excuses her chosen candidate.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #67)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:54 PM

75. You think that hate letter sent to my home by someone who said they supported him colored my view?

 

Probably. And the nasty names his supporters call me regularly. I suppose I feel as if they think he would be fine with it since they do so with his name in full view, or wrote "GO BERNIE!!!" on the hate mail they sent me. That did have an effect seeing his name so proudly on that letter and knowing that that person was proud of what he was doing for his favorite candidate. Maybe I am wrong and he would be quick to say something and tell them to "knock it off!"
We will never know what would have been had that not occurred.
But my change of heart gets proven to be the best thing on a daily basis. I could not make excuses for that stuff day after day.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #75)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:57 PM

80. Yes we all know it is his fault

 

Not the person that sent the letter that may or may not have actually been a Bernie supporter.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #80)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:59 PM

84. Why should I not believe what they wrote?

 

I do not make up conspiracy theories. Face value for me. I believe they were who they say they were.

And no, I don't blame Bernie. But I do not like it. Or the nasty treatment at all. If it comes from a certain group it colors my view of the candidate. Did with Hillary08 and does with Bernie16

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Response to bravenak (Reply #84)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:03 PM

114. Hillary 16

 

Is the same as 08. Same way of using her surrogates to push the racist, sexist and Jewish smears.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #75)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:50 PM

103. It was an obvious smear against Sanders

 

Written by a Hillary supporter. Whomever wrote it is a moron when it comes to being a convincing propagandist.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #103)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:53 PM

104. Nice CT

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:46 PM

63. I do not think that is it but ok

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:41 PM

55. On which specific gun issue does she disagree with him?

 

Can you name one? He backed every proposal in Obama's gun control package after Sandy Hook.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:45 PM

61. I think the Brady bill

 

And his Rhetiric about urban and rural make me feel like urban mean black and rural means white. Which is how it is used by many many people. They even have 'urban' fiction and romance lines that mean just that! Don't like that.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #61)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:46 PM

65. Name a single gun issue on which she disagrees with him

 

Today. You cannot.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #65)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:48 PM

68. That does not change how his RHETORIC makes me feel slighted.

 

I find it offensive in a way. I hope it is just tone deafness and not pandering. I hope.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #68)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:51 PM

71. So you can't cite a difference

 

Tell us specifically what part of his 'rhetoric' slights (deliberately ignores) you.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #71)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:55 PM

76. She can't

 

She just can't support a person like him. She all but stated why in one of the replies, sad.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #71)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:01 PM

85. I told you. The urban rural dogwhistle that conservatives use. Bothers me.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #61)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:53 PM

73. It's been the Brady law for years

 

She said the same thing last time she ran for president about rural and urban. You are the only one injecting race into this so we actually now know why you are so against him. It is not his positions at all as they are virtually the same now.

Sad you had to inject racism into this.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #73)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:05 PM

86. She sure learned her lesson when she lost!!

 

If you do not know the urbam rural thing and why blacks may be sensitiv to it, let me know. I'm sure I can google up something to help.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #86)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:57 PM

108. She will change again

 

Not everything rural or urban is racial. Sometimes it it just a fact about differing population density. Too bad everything that you see has a racist tint.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #108)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:58 PM

109. Yeah. But that felt racial.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #109)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:04 PM

117. Well it was not

 

Same as when Hillary said almost exactly the same thing. Sometimes things just are not racial.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:14 PM

17. +1,000 !!!

n/t



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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 12:59 PM

3. Totally disagree with the author's opinion in general.

Because it is nothing else than an opinion that these three writers express.

I thought O'Malley was quite good. I liked Sanders's position and was very uncomfortable with Hillary Clinton's pandering. It remembered Bush sometimes.

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Response to Mass (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:00 PM

4. I agree with most of it.

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:02 PM

6. Of course that part about immunity for gun dealers is a lie

 

There are 6 exceptions and one just lost a lawsuit.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:04 PM

10. Ummm hmmmm. Why did he not say so then?

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:13 PM

16. Ask him

 

I read and understand the law. It is not what is being put out and misunderstood by low information people. It is not a 10 second soundbite.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:22 PM

24. I guess he won't be able to win us over since we are just so uninformed.

 

There is no way I could POSSIBLY read it if you posted it. Illiterate. I cannot read.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:33 PM

31. I have done my research

 

It is good to be knowledgeable on subjects that I comment on. Try doing it sometime, I know you can read and are a very smart lady. Too smart to be taken in by some talking points. I am sure you know things are more complicated than just a binary 1 or 0.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #31)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:39 PM

32. I am too jaded to believe in bull.

 

He has no actual plan. That is my problem too. Plus he is stuck on his pet issues. They are not my pet issues. She will do better on my pet issues.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:41 PM

42. Until she evolves

 

I just do not trust her and I think you will be very disappointed for supporting her so blindly.

I see not jaded enough to be taken in by her bull.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #42)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:45 PM

44. I do not believe anything he says.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #44)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:47 PM

45. Ok

 

I know why too

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #45)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:50 PM

47. Because his answers are too vague.

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:09 PM

11. What bothered me the most about Sander's statement was regarding the minimum wage

The moderator indicated that the leading economist wrote that 15 per hour would cause job loss. And Sanders responded that there are always consequences..as if blowing off the people who will lose their jobs. He was tone-deaf.

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Response to Evergreen Emerald (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:11 PM

13. The empathy gap is wide.

 

Everything is viewed from an analytical standpoint and the human factor is not a consideration, it seems. I do not like it.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:52 PM

72. Give a specific example of this

 

nt

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #72)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:57 PM

82. More crickets

 

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #72)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:05 PM

87. From Paris straight to stump speech.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #87)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:07 PM

91. I love that you were 'assigned' LITERALLY five minutes to respond before someone decided to chirp

in about crickets.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #91)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:09 PM

93. You know we have to be faster, smarter, better, etc.

 

Deliciously stupid things happen here.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #87)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:29 PM

97. So you cannot cite a single specific example

 

Perhaps you should have watched the whole debate?

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #97)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:30 PM

98. That was specific

 

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Response to Evergreen Emerald (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:15 PM

19. What bothered me most

 

Was Hillary having to invoke 9/11 and sexism in her non answer about her being to close to Wall Street and the 08 crash.

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Response to Evergreen Emerald (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:29 PM

29. Ahhh yes, a fucking "leading economist...

... wrote that 15 per hour would cause job loss." Republican speak much?

Same fucking bullshit that has suppressed a living wage for working people since St Ronnie Rayguns took office.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #29)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:51 PM

38. Yeah, you might want to look him up before you make snarky comments.

the economist whose article was discussed during the debate:

Alan Bennett Krueger is an American economist, Bendheim Professor of Economics and Public Affairs at Princeton University and Research Associate at the National Bureau of Economic Research.

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Response to Evergreen Emerald (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 05:22 PM

130. So what?

I'm supposed to be impressed by another over educated clown that keeps being wrong?

Fuck yes, that's gonna happen. Hold your breath while you wait.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #130)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 12:35 AM

169. "over educated clown"

I think that's the first time I've read someone on DU diss someone because they're "over educated"

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Response to Evergreen Emerald (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:01 PM

49. Sanders may believe that raising the minimum wage

...doesn't decrease overall employment but causes some businesses to have fewer workers and some to have more workers.

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Response to Evergreen Emerald (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:45 PM

62. The moderator repeated the Republican talking point

 

That they have been repeating since about 2000 when they stopped raising the minimum wage.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:11 PM

14. He refused to admit that he made a mistake. nt

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:16 PM

20. Since it was not a mistake

 

Why should he

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:45 PM

34. Not supporting the "Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act' ("Brady Bill")

(and voting against every one of its iterations including waiting periods and background checks) was not a mistake?

I expect maybe because it was part of the Democratic platform and he was never a Democrat yet suddenly he is running in a Democratic primary?

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:46 PM

35. He is for ubc

 

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:50 PM

37. After the fact? nt

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:15 PM

39. What counts is now from what I have been told

 

Of Hillary and her many more evolving positions. I see some seem to have a double standard. I wonder why?

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #39)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:24 PM

40. On the contrary

based on the majority of what gets rec'd to the front page and greatest page on DU - specific folks are not permitted to "evolve". And don't automatically assume I am a Hillary supporter. I am undecided but will vote for the nominee.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #40)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:39 PM

41. I never said you were a Hillary supporter

 

It is just funny when her many evolving positions are pointed out. We are told to respect her latest position only. In other words shut up and color. But they can use the double standard against Bernie and that is fine and should not be compared to Hillary. To criticize any of her positions is an attack or some kind of sexism.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:51 PM

48. There is too much hypocrisy, double-standards, and outright nonsense

being posted on DU right now and too little substantive fleshing out of policy issues. The criticism of Bernie devolves into insisting the critiquer is being "anti-semitic" or "ageist" or is a "paid troll" or "TurdWay" and other idiocy.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:45 PM

43. Not exactly. As far as I can tell, Sanders always supported (or at least

never opposed) background checks. What he did oppose was waiting periods.

At the time of the Brady Bill votes, the technology did not exist to perform instant background checks (it does now). The bills that Sanders voted against required waiting periods in the context of background checks, but I believe that even then he did vote for a bill mandating instant checks (although it would have have had to wait for the technology to catch up)...

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Response to petronius (Reply #43)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 02:48 PM

46. Watch those facts

 

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #46)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:15 PM

51. Read what the legislation did

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #51)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:44 PM

59. I have

 

And I also know a gun retailer just lost a legitimate lawsuit.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #59)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:57 PM

81. And my point was

that it wasn't just about "background checks" and his new-found vigor in support of them, which is apparently the argument du jour to skirt around Sen. Sanders' votes on what else was in there. And on a related note, his lecturing -

"Let me add to that, I think that urban America has got to respect what rural America is about, where 99 percent of the people in my state who hunt are law abiding people."


of much of the Democratic base who live in "urban America" was not particularly helpful nor would such "'splaining" endear a large chunk of urban voters to his camp.

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Response to petronius (Reply #43)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:12 PM

50. You apparently didn't read my post

and were so quick to jump on it. The word "includes..." should suggest that there were other things in there that he was apparently against. This was not just a "background check" law. It also included coming up with ways to bolster state tracking of criminals and crack down on gun theft (and in essence, straw purchases), as well as prohibiting sales to the deranged stalkers, mentally ill, and escaped criminals.

This is the final version that he still voted against.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #50)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:29 PM

52. My reply was specifically in response to "After the fact?" which itself--judging

by context--specifically referred to Sanders' support for UBCs. I did read your earlier post (which was not the one I replied to) and I do know what the Act included.

Your snark (if that's what you intended) is misplaced...

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Response to petronius (Reply #52)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:41 PM

56. My OP was about the entire law

and its provisions (with the examples of such that I posted), which are apparently slowly appearing in his policy positions in a piecemeal fashion. The universal background check provision (along with everything else in the various iterations of that bill and in its final version as law) were subsequently voted against by him, so his "support" was apparently not enough for him to vote for it then and perhaps work to "fix" what he had issues with. Regardless, you gave someone a laugh.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:23 PM

25. And it will forever be so.

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:30 PM

30. This was the part of the debate that

 

made me feel like Bernie's heart is not in the race. He could have easily defended himself and explained to the public that the so called immunity is no different from immunity granted to car, pharmaceutical, kitchen ware manufactures i.e. gives the immunity from lawsuits if a legal, non defective product they made was used to commit a crime.

Also this would have been his opportunity to tell the audience that the 95%+ polling showing that Americans support increased gun control was wrong that is why just about every election where a gun controller was against a 2nd amendment supporter, the 2nd amendment support came out on top, even in areas where Obama carried. The majority of Americans just don't wat anymore gun control laws and if we keep running on that platform, the more it increases our chances of losing elections.

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Response to jamzrockz (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 01:49 PM

36. The problem is he has stated that many times

 

But the other candidates lie about the law and people who have not researched the subject believe the 5 second soundbite lie. Too bad people actually do not research the subject anymore.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #36)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:36 PM

53. Hes going to need to find a way

 

to articulate his message in a way people will understand. I mean, this was one of the ways he was supposed to appeal to conservatives and he is going to easily give up on it? If he can't get his message out on this, wait till the republicans start misstating his whole wealth redistribution and socialist policy. If he thinks this is bad, wait till he wins the nomination.

Just listening to senator Clinton and even with the points where you don't agree with her, she either puts up a strong defense of her position or concede to it like she does with her Iraqi war vote. She gives you that feeling that she will be a strong leader, someone who won't back down when she is negotiating with the banks or other world leaders. I hate to say this but she just sounds and looks more presidential than Bernie. The average vote will go for Clinton if those 3 are the options available.

He has to stand strong, work of his debating skills and try talking about issues other than the economy. If he doesn't do that and fast, Senator Clinton will win take this primary easily.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:39 PM

54. Sanders believes every man, woman and child should be armed

 

Right

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Response to Armstead (Reply #54)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:47 PM

66. Where did it say THAT??!?!

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #66)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:54 PM

74. Obvious exageration

 

With a couple of exceptions - which don"t have anything to do with access to guns -- Bernie advocates the same goals and policies as Clinton. It s not like he's the reincarnation of Charlton Heston.

Heck he said in the debate that he is open to reevaluating the gun liability issue....but no "not good enough."

I think he could advocate that every gun in America be confiscated and it would still be "not good enough."

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Response to Armstead (Reply #74)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 03:55 PM

77. Or just say he made a mistake.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #77)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:06 PM

89. Does it matter? He might not think the vote was a mistake

 

He may have been speaking honestly - what a concept - when he there may be parts of the law that were right and some not.

People do sometimes have mixed feelings about things, you know.

And besides its a peripheral issue in the whole issue. Unless all guns are outlawed, it is not legally consistent to say gun manufacturers should be sued for making a product that is legal. Its tge people who use the guns that are liable.

Gun manufacturers are still liable for defective products or unlawful distribution.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #89)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:08 PM

92. It does matter. Just like his mass incarceration vote matters. Millions of black men. Lost.

 

Do they matter?

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:05 PM

88. "Sanders has pulled ahead in New Hampshire

Their own link in the article to the Real Clear Politics poll shows Hillary with 44% and Sanders with 41% in NH.

Is this another dramatic poll change in another short period of time or did something else happen??

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Response to Number23 (Reply #88)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 04:17 PM

94. I just keep thinking about the isidewith poll whenever they post something.

 

After that? I have nothing to dis uss with them about polls, ever. She was winning this morning and will probably still be winning tomorrow.




Have you ever had to explain to somebody what their race was even though you know they know what race they are, but then you feel bad cause maybe they actually did get themselves confused? I am using ignore from now on and forever. Too much. It's getting to be ridiculous. Okay. Waaaaaaaay past ridiculous.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #94)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 06:18 PM

160. Yes it is

 

The racism here sucks

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #160)

Sun Nov 15, 2015, 11:41 PM

163. Yes. Black folks are treated like crap, I agree.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #163)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 12:10 AM

164. +1000

Love you.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #164)

Mon Nov 16, 2015, 12:13 AM

165. Love you too!

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

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