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Sat Nov 21, 2015, 06:54 PM

 

Bernie Sanders Allows He'd Lose The Democratic Primary If Held Today

Sanders allows he'd lose Democratic primary if held today



By MEG KINNARD
Associated Press
NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) - Bernie Sanders acknowledged on Saturday that he'd lose the Democratic primary to Hillary Rodham Clinton if the election were held now.

"We started way, way, way down," the Vermont senator told reporters while campaigning in North Charleston, South Carolina. "I think you're going to see us picking up a lot of steam here in South Carolina. ... I will not deny, if the election were held today, we would lose."

Sanders said that he started his campaign with much lower name-recognition than front-runner Clinton and is still working to introduce himself to voters.






Read more: http://www.wsmv.com/story/30576282/sanders-allows-hed-lose-democratic-primary-if-held-today#ixzz3sAYqYJGN



http://www.wsmv.com/story/30576282/sanders-allows-hed-lose-democratic-primary-if-held-today

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Reply Bernie Sanders Allows He'd Lose The Democratic Primary If Held Today (Original post)
bravenak Nov 2015 OP
Scootaloo Nov 2015 #1
CoffeeCat Nov 2015 #2
pangaia Nov 2015 #3
Gothmog Nov 2015 #52
CoffeeCat Nov 2015 #59
Omaha Steve Nov 2015 #64
SunSeeker Nov 2015 #4
bravenak Nov 2015 #5
DCBob Nov 2015 #6
bravenak Nov 2015 #7
NurseJackie Nov 2015 #8
bravenak Nov 2015 #9
zalinda Nov 2015 #12
bravenak Nov 2015 #13
zalinda Nov 2015 #42
bravenak Nov 2015 #44
zalinda Nov 2015 #48
bravenak Nov 2015 #66
zalinda Nov 2015 #71
bravenak Nov 2015 #74
Adrahil Nov 2015 #88
mythology Nov 2015 #27
Gothmog Nov 2015 #53
bravenak Nov 2015 #67
Cali_Democrat Nov 2015 #10
bravenak Nov 2015 #11
Number23 Nov 2015 #46
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #14
bravenak Nov 2015 #15
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #18
bravenak Nov 2015 #19
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #21
bravenak Nov 2015 #23
upaloopa Nov 2015 #80
Adrahil Nov 2015 #90
tk2kewl Nov 2015 #16
bravenak Nov 2015 #24
MineralMan Nov 2015 #17
bravenak Nov 2015 #20
MineralMan Nov 2015 #22
okasha Nov 2015 #25
bravenak Nov 2015 #26
SusanCalvin Nov 2015 #28
Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #29
bravenak Nov 2015 #30
Ron Green Nov 2015 #31
bravenak Nov 2015 #34
Cha Nov 2015 #32
bravenak Nov 2015 #33
Cha Nov 2015 #35
bravenak Nov 2015 #36
Cha Nov 2015 #37
bravenak Nov 2015 #38
Cha Nov 2015 #39
bravenak Nov 2015 #40
Cha Nov 2015 #41
bravenak Nov 2015 #47
Gothmog Nov 2015 #54
Cha Nov 2015 #70
Gothmog Nov 2015 #97
brooklynite Nov 2015 #43
bravenak Nov 2015 #45
John Poet Nov 2015 #49
bravenak Nov 2015 #84
Alfresco Nov 2015 #50
Kentonio Nov 2015 #51
bravenak Nov 2015 #85
Alfresco Nov 2015 #86
bravenak Nov 2015 #91
Alfresco Nov 2015 #95
bravenak Nov 2015 #96
99Forever Nov 2015 #55
bravenak Nov 2015 #68
99Forever Nov 2015 #72
bravenak Nov 2015 #73
99Forever Nov 2015 #77
bravenak Nov 2015 #79
GitRDun Nov 2015 #56
Kentonio Nov 2015 #57
GitRDun Nov 2015 #58
Kentonio Nov 2015 #61
GitRDun Nov 2015 #62
Kentonio Nov 2015 #63
GitRDun Nov 2015 #65
NurseJackie Nov 2015 #60
bravenak Nov 2015 #69
AtomicKitten Nov 2015 #75
bravenak Nov 2015 #76
AtomicKitten Nov 2015 #78
bravenak Nov 2015 #81
AtomicKitten Nov 2015 #82
bravenak Nov 2015 #83
brooklynite Nov 2015 #89
LoveIsNow Nov 2015 #87
bravenak Nov 2015 #92
FloridaBlues Nov 2015 #93
bravenak Nov 2015 #94

Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 06:55 PM

1. Election's not held today though.

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #1)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:01 PM

2. Obama started out exactly the same way...

Obama was down in every single national poll, by large margins at this point during the 2008 primary season.

He was down in Iowa for the longest time. At this time, during the Iowa caucuses (8 weeks before to the caucuses) Obama was down by 15. And Obama eventually won the Iowa caucuses; Hillary came in third.

Obama didn't even begin to consistently beat Hillary in national polls until late spring of 2008. Even after he'd won Iowa, and came close in NH--Obama was still losing most national polls.

It can happen. Bernie can win this. He's gathering steam as we speak. Doing better in national polls, and in the most important polls (Iowa, NH) he's improving daily.

This is a fight to the end.

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:22 PM

3. And what.

Bored?

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 10:42 AM

52. Sanders is not a Barack Obama

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #52)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:23 PM

59. Sanders is following the same Iowa trajectory as Obama...

No one said that Sanders was Obama. But if you look at 2008, and what happened--we're seeing the exact same dynamics play out.

--Sanders and Obama were both polling at 4 percent in the spring that preceded the Iowa caucuses.

--Both Sanders and Obama are polling 8-14 points behind Hillary during the October before the Iowa caucuses (depending which poll you look at).

--Hillary Clinton was leading in ALL national polls, and ALL state polls against Obama--during this time in the 08 Dem primary process.

The dynamics of Iowa are 2008 vs 2016 are nearly identical. Support for Hillary is soft in Iowa. Voters are looking for any reason to vote for someone else, because she just simply doesn't play well here. The results of the 08 caucuses (Clinton 3rd place) validate this. Sander's 35 percent support in Iowa--when his campaign is barely off the ground around here, is also proof of strong and growing support here that could blossom into a win.

That is why she came in third in Iowa. When there are viable alternatives--especially attractive candidates on the left--there's trouble for her in Iowa.

Anything could happen in Iowa. It did it 08, why not 2015?


These factors are also important:

Bernie has the advantage, even though Clinton is ahead in the Iowa polls because Hillary has peaked and Sanders hasn't. He is still introducing himself to people.

Sanders was attracting very large Iowa crowds and he has since backed off. I imagine he's waiting to go full throttle with campaign events later in the campaign. The trick to winning the Iowa caucuses is peaking at the perfect time. When he fills indoor venues (in December/Jan) with 10,000+ people--something Hillary will be unable to do, the optics will harm her and really punch a hole in her "inevitability."

This is exactly what happened with Obama, in 2008. I saw all of this up close and personal, in 2008. I'm seeing the same situation repeat again.

Ground games are also important as well. I would say Sanders has the advantage people ground games are always fueled by young people. Obama's ground game in 2008 was unprecedented. Hillary's was incredibly weak. I had Obama supporters at my door weekly. I saw one Hillary supporter the entire caucus season. Younger supporters translates into more bodies willing and able to brave Iowa winters and canvas door-to-door.

You also have to remember that when Iowa caucus goers show up to caucus, if a candidate does not have a threshold percentage of support--those supporters have to join another candidate camp or sit it out. This happened with Richardson in 08. This could happen in a large percentage of Iowa's 1,600+ precincts. If he continues to poll around 5-6 percent, most precincts will see O'Malley joining another candidate camp. The bulk of those O'Malley supporters will go to Sanders. O'Malley supporters are again, looking for an alternative to Clinton, and most likely someone to the left of her. This could give Sanders another bump (2-3 percent, possibly).

This gives Sanders a real advantage in the numbers that won't show up until caucus evening. We'll just have to wait and see what happens to O'Malley's numbers.

There are no absolutes. I don't have a crystal ball. Nor am I suggesting that Sanders is Obama.

However, it is undeniable that the polls, the psychology of the Iowa electorate, Iowa Clinton fatigue (and this is her second time campaigning in Iowa, so it's worse this year) the upcoming optics of the Sanders campaign the remaining time he has to convince voters---could easily swing this race to Sanders.

Iowa is certainly not the most important state. However, it is the first to vote and if Sanders wins (and I definitely think he will, based on what I've witnessed and experienced during 4 caucus cycles) Clinton's inevitability goes out the window (just like it did in 08) and we've got a tight primary Democratic battle on our hands--just like in 08.

And we all know how that ended.


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Response to Gothmog (Reply #52)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 05:00 PM

64. Obama had one speech voted present a lot and still beat Hillary


We all know about Bernie and how he votes.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:38 PM

4. I guess those big rallies haven't introduced him to voters.

Or maybe they have. And that's the problem.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #4)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:39 PM

5. Other people introduce new people to him. Hence, the poll numbers.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:44 PM

6. Blowout comes to mind.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:50 PM

7. Yep. I do not see this changing.

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 08:12 PM

8. The undecideds will find their candidates in

proportions that are very similar to the existing distribution. Hillary will be the winner, Sanders will be the loser. No doubt in my mind.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #8)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 08:18 PM

9. Yep. I think most of them will go to Hillary. I see this over by March.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #9)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:00 PM

12. Wait, wasn't it supposed to be over by the end of summer? eom

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Response to zalinda (Reply #12)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:04 PM

13. I said March

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:10 AM

42. But his surge was supposed to die out

what happened?

Z

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Response to zalinda (Reply #42)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:23 AM

44. It is dead.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #44)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 06:04 AM

48. Then why do you keep trying to beat a dead horse? eom

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Response to zalinda (Reply #48)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 06:30 PM

66. The dead horse is the campaign?

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #66)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 06:57 PM

71. If you think the campaign is so dead

why do you keep beating up on it?

Z

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Response to zalinda (Reply #71)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:02 PM

74. Because I do not like his campaign style or management style, thx

 

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Response to zalinda (Reply #42)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:03 PM

88. It died out.

 



Bernie's surge is over, and has been for a while. Bernie needs some kind of game changer to win at this point, I think.

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Response to zalinda (Reply #12)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 10:50 PM

27. It was never going to be entirely over until at least some voting has occurred

 

It would be silly of somebody running second to drop out at this point.

Well Ben Carson should, but that's because he shouldn't be running at all.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 10:43 AM

53. It should be over by Super Tuesday

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #53)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 06:32 PM

67. Yep. Paartaay!

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 08:19 PM

10. What? I thought he's winning all 50 states right now.....

 

So even Bernie doesn't believe in online click bait polls?

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 08:21 PM

11. I guess they forgot to tell him he was WINNING!

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:35 AM

46. And his black support has TRIPLE DOUBLED now according to those same laughable, 100% wrong sources



At some point, you'd think that people who are always wrong/uninformed/clueless about black people would just stop trying to speak for black people.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:25 PM

14. If he was the nominee he would win the general today, because he leads all Repulbicans

 

Hillary on the other hand loses to them all. Do the math.

If Hillary gets the nod, the GOP wins the general. Why? Given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat that acts like a Republican, voters especially independents will choose the real Republican every time.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:29 PM

15. Well, I'm glad he won't be the nominee anyway.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #15)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:33 PM

18. So you would rather have a Republican win?

 

Why does this not surprise me? You will most likely get your wish. Lucky you!

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #18)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:36 PM

19. I want Sanders to lose to Hillary.

 

And then her to win. I only vote democratic. Ever.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:38 PM

21. She will lose the general

 

And you are fine with it.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #21)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:41 PM

23. She will win. I am VERY PLEASED that he will lose the primary, though.

 

Planning a night out.
I do not like his community organizational skills,

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:11 PM

80. Funny if Bernie is not in the lead we wait until

the election
If he is in the lead we count today is if it represents the election outcome.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:04 PM

90. Cite please.

 

I haven't seen any consistent polling that Bernie beats every GOP candidate while Hillary loses to them all. Please post the data.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:31 PM

16. And the Red Sox would have lost the '04 ALCS if the series were only 3 games

 

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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #16)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:42 PM

24. As long as he loses the primary to Hillary she will win the general.

 

I predict his numbers go DOWN.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:32 PM

17. Always a realist, now and for the future.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #17)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:37 PM

20. He will be a fighter when he goes back to the Senate.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #20)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:39 PM

22. Again, as always.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 10:32 PM

25. He's neither stupid nor delusional.

I think a lot of the out of control emotion among his fans comes from showing off for each other on the net. If X makes the reasonable statement that Sanders is doing better than he was in July because he's visibly attracted a cadre of supporters, then Y has to inflate that to blame the "old fashioned scientific polls" for concealing his allegedly higher numbers, and Z declares he's winning all across the map according to a self-selecting media poll that permits single individuals and bots to vote multiple times.

Interesting crowd dynamics.

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Response to okasha (Reply #25)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 10:37 PM

26. Like a wild game of telephone.

 

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Response to okasha (Reply #25)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 10:56 PM

28. I too have issues with some of his supporters.

Unfortunately, since I do want him to win the primary and think he can win the general.

But it's all speculation until the votes are in. I try to stay out of horserace mode and just do what I can.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 10:57 PM

29. Sanders knows the polls are accurate.

Think about that.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #29)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 10:59 PM

30. I know. He is plenty sane. He knows which way the wind is blowing.

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 11:17 PM

31. He tells the truth, unlike more craven politicians.

This is why his candidacy is so important, and such a rare opportunity.

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Response to Ron Green (Reply #31)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 01:28 AM

34. And he will be a fighter when he goes back to the Senate!!!!

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 01:16 AM

32. Ya think, bernie?! And, if he keeps saying dumb stuff like..

"I'm not running because I think it's my turn.." he's not ever getting anywhere.

Nobody thinks it's their damn turn.. everyone is working hard and has been for years.

You're right, brave.. I think he seriously lacks any community organizing skills.. not the way he's turned off so many of President Obama Supporters. That's just unnecessary. The cover up is worse.. because then it just highlights what he did.. again. He should have owned it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1107&pid=26215

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Response to Cha (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 01:27 AM

33. Sometimes I clap after I read your posts.

 



Like right now. Nuff said! You can drop that mic at any time!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 01:45 AM

35. Rofl! thank you, brave..

That means a lot coming from you.

I was just reading that "berni winning twitter" thread.. where they were accusing you of being a "troll" because damn insults are all they're made of.

Oh oh.. I see the OP got a HIDE for calling you a troll.. You won the thread!





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Response to Cha (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 01:49 AM

36. I did not know that. I may have put the op and others on ignore.

 

I can only see like 20 posts on that thread now, lol!

You saw all those insults? To some that proves how bad of a bully I am that people are compelled to insult me one by one.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #36)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:06 AM

37. Yes, I was at your "funeral" incognito..

Actually wasn't yours at all.. they just wanted it to be. Turned out to be somebody else's..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=835903

yeah, it proves who the bullies are.. and how strong and brave you are.

LMAO! Yes, they really had to get down with their bully bad selves calling you a "troll" ad nauseam to prove what a "bully" you are..

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Response to Cha (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:09 AM

38. And all those Insults!!! Insulting me makes me look so bad.

 

I have no idea why anyone expects me to appreciate that and return kindness for it or take a 'break for me sanity'. I'm way saner than to think calling somebody names will make them shut up. Won't make me shut up.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:45 AM

39. Yeah, don't be so "mean", bravenak.. think of

their sensibilities after they spent months raging on #BLM and tearing you apart because you left Bernie.

It's just like they expect the AA community to appreciate sanders after how they treated #BLM post Netroots Nation and Seattle. And, how BS has treated President Obama..

They get nothing.

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Response to Cha (Reply #39)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:59 AM

40. All these two wrongs don't make a right admonishments are funny too.

 

They never say squat to them when they attact or insult me, but get all in high dudgeon if I
in response to the foolishness.

Somebody called me the New Sid Dithers.

That was the only nice thing said about me all day from them.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #40)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:08 AM

41. the new Sid Dithers.. they're clueless that it's a high compliment. Sid is seriously on to them.

in yours and Dither's honor~



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Response to Cha (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:42 AM

47. Awww, you think they meant to insult me?

 

Too bad. He is way more awesome than them.

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Response to Cha (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 10:45 AM

54. The "it is my turn" line is dumb-this concept has never applied to Democratic primary process

The "it is my turn" concept is a GOP primary concept and has never applied to the Democratic primary process. Democrats have never cared about whose turn it was. Sanders is in effect trying to apply a GOP primay process concept to the Democratic primary process and that implication is simply dumb

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #54)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 06:46 PM

70. Glad you agree.. somebody is advising him badly or it was his own diumb thing to say.

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Response to Cha (Reply #70)

Mon Nov 23, 2015, 10:00 AM

97. Democrats are not Republicans and we have a very different process

Implying that Democrats are using a Republican process is insulting

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:22 AM

43. So those millions of hidden voters don't exist?

Who would have guessed?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #43)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:24 AM

45. LOL

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 06:09 AM

49. And if worms had machine-guns,

 

birds wouldn't fuck with them.

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Response to John Poet (Reply #49)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:22 PM

84. He does not appeal to most voters. Thanks.

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:12 AM

50. He is starting to prepare his followers for the inevitable.

An easier let down.

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Response to Alfresco (Reply #50)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:28 AM

51. Really sad

 

That people are so unused to an honest politician, that they can't help reading their own biases into what is actually said.

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Response to Alfresco (Reply #50)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:23 PM

85. I agree

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #85)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:01 PM

86. I expect him to tamper expectations more and more...

as the primaries approach.
Otherwise he may have a raging horde on his hands.

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Response to Alfresco (Reply #86)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:05 PM

91. You know, this just shows what a good guy he is, imo.

 

He will be hell on wheels back in the Senate. That is my prediction. He can run that place after this.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #91)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:13 PM

95. But will he join the Dem. party?

If he does he would have a chance to get a lot more things done.

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Response to Alfresco (Reply #95)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:17 PM

96. He did change his affiliation to dem this month.

 

I hope he keeps it that way. That's all we can do is wait and see. If he does? Him and Warren can be Tag Team Champions, lol.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 10:51 AM

55. So what's your fucking point?

Are they holding primaries today and not telling anybody?

Stinkbait much?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 06:45 PM

68. My point is that Bernie sees the writing on the wall, thx.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #68)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 06:59 PM

72. You have no fucking clue what Bernie sees.

Perhaps you should stop pretending you do.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #72)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:02 PM

73. I see that he allows that he would lose the campaign

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #73)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:06 PM

77. Is there a primary or caucaus being held today?

Didn't see that memo. You would think it would make the news somewhere.

Got a link to that?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #77)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:08 PM

79. Did I say that?

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 11:29 AM

56. Objectively speaking, currently he deserves to lose

Both Sanders campaign and his supporters have led SEPARATE, but similarly one-dimensional campaigns:

The Sanders campaign began and still leads with the income inequality issue. Most other issues are explained or solved in part by fixing income inequality. This worldview is the reason he comes off as "insensitive" or "tin-eared" in some circles. It's my view that because of this limited worldview and unnecessary petty criticisms of the President, he gains no trust among many democratic constituencies.

From a broad perspective (meaning not all), the non-campaign Sanders support is one-dimensional as well. Hillary Clinton is "evil" (take your pick as to why, corporate shill, untrustworthy, etc.) and Bernie will save us (despite the fact that he has few political allies, people of color don't like him in large numbers, etc.)

Neither of these one dimensional approaches is inspiring in the least. Barack Obama inspired me. He made me feel like we're all in this together and we can do better. The Sanders' messages aren't inspirational in the least...they merely show me the enemy.

Nowhere in the Sanders message do you see a meaningful narrative on what a great job he did as mayor in Burlington. There is a massive story there that should be told.

Nowhere in the Sanders message do you see a laundry list of Senate amendments that Bernie got pushed thru that helped people. Rolling Stone called him the amendment king!

If you can't inspire people to vote for you, you are going nowhere. Both Sanders and his supporters have 2 huge stories they could be telling...but they'd rather point their collective fingers and tell me who to hate, distrust. It's pathetic.

Even more pathetic is the current whining narrative about how horrible Hillary supporters are on DU, when just a couple months ago, the Sanders crew was ruthlessly attacking posts that were in the slightest bit negative about BS. The proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

I have not made my final decision yet. I believe Hillary is a flawed candidate....but Sanders is seriously flawed too. I can go to the mall and see a rainbow of skin colors...and know that mostly the white ones like Bernie....not too inspiring....and it's their fault...both the campaign and his supporters.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #56)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 11:43 AM

57. There is vitriol coming from both directions, and it would be hypocritical to ignore it.

 

A quick scan through the Hillary forum shows a mountain of unpleasantness and bile thrown towards anyone supporting Sanders, and plenty of that bleeds over into DU: P as well. There's also plenty towards Hillary supporters too, which probably means we all need to take a look in the mirror rather than this insistence that the other side are the guilty party.

Here's one tip though, if you genuinely dislike negative attitutes towards other candidates, then maybe you might want to avoid using words like 'pathetic' when you're speaking about people.

As for the campaign strategy, it's taken him from 3% to 35% in just 7 months, so regardless of whether it attracts your vote, it is difficult to make an argument that it hasn't been effective. He has actually become far less one dimensional recently in response to the advice he got from BLM, which is why his speeches on justice focus on a lot more than just the economy. It's always going to be the leading issue of his campaign though, for the very good reason that it's why he's running, and also why he's become a serious candidate. This is an issue that affects hundreds of millions of Americans, it DESERVES to be the lead issue.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #57)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 12:27 PM

58. You miss most of the points

Income inequality can be a lead issue, but when it becomes the focal point of your worldview, is presented as a panacea, you have a problem, no matter how good your intentions.

Using the word "pathetic" was about the whining, not the people. And no one is asserting guilt...I am asserting cause and effect. The cause was one-dimensional strategy, the effect is SBS is losing at this point.

To say that there was an equal amount of vitriol from both sides ignores what actually happened on DU. As Bernie began to get more than just micro support, there were tidal waves of vitriol coming from the BS folks here. Nothing compared to what the HRC folks did. Ask around in the AA group and see what they say, lol. In fact many HRC supporters left to another site because it was so bad on DU. Further, the vitriol is not nearly as important as the tactics / strategy.

The message from the Sanders side was one-dimensional...that's what's important. It is much more persuasive to demonstrate Sanders effectiveness as a city administrator (went from a dump to "best small city" in 8 years...his people ran that town for 31 of 32 years after he left) and record in the Senate helping people than to spew HRC sucks posts.

Lastly, if the message was or is so darned good, there would be more than just support from white people. If the goal is to plateau in the 30% range, you are correct, the strategy was effective. While I agree he is trying to be less one-dimensional, the problem is many don't believe that message. That's why he has plateaued in the polls.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #58)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:22 PM

61. It is a panacea for a huge amount of problems in America.

 

Not for all of them sure, but its at the very heart of many of the troubles harming the country. It should be the focal point of most peoples worldview, because it is genuinely that important. With crime, education, housing, debt and many more it sits at the centre of these issues.

As for the HRC/Sanders vitriol, there was plenty of that in both directions despite how much you might want to revise that particular history. For every person critisizing Hillary, there was another calling Sanders supporters deluded and naive. Maybe you need to spend a little time in the Hillary group and see exactly how much respect is shown there for their fellow Democrats. It's a damn sight more vicious than the Sanders groups is, a place where the criticism is usually reserved for the candidate rather than calling opposition supporters deluded, insane, stupid, sexist, racist and god knows what else. That's been the chief difference here, Sanders supporters have chiefly attacked a politician and Clinton supporters have chiefly attacked supporters of a politician. How exactly do you expect people to react to that kind of thing? Again Sanders supporters are far from blameless, and a lot of the 'Why don't AA voters get it?!' stuff has been tone deaf and idiotic, but there's mud flying both ways.

As for message, you can keep repeating what he should be doing, but the simple fact is that his strategy so far has been effective. For an outside chance candidate like Sanders to focus on the job he did as mayor would do nothing more than reinforce impressions that he was a small time candidate. It would also leave an easy opening for Clinton to just respond with 'Well Bernie, you did a great job up there in your little town in Vermont, but running the country is a much bigger job'. Hell even O'Malley could just respond with 'Burlington? Great, but Baltimore was a bit more of a challenge'.

As for your last point, his message is good enough that from 3% of the Dem vote, he's now polling around 35% and rising. His support is also rising among non-white voters as he gets increased name recognition and learns to tailor his message to different communities. That's exactly why he brought in strong qualified people to head up his AA and Latino efforts, and that is starting to pay off, as his rise from 6% to about 21% amongst AA voters in South Carolina shows. Now if you want to be lazy, you can point at that 21% and say 'Only 21%? Pathetic, how can he win when he's so low?' but to understand his campaign you have to realize where he started, how completely unknown he was to most voters and consider the momentum that is continuing to drive his campaign across the country.

It may well not be enough to catch Hillary, she's an extremely skilled political operator and has a very impressive campaign machine, but up until now he's outperforming the most optimistic forecasts for his candidacy. Despite what he said the other day, he almost certainly isn't going to win South Carolina, but then again he doesn't need to. If he picks up at least 2 out of Iowa, NH and Nevada and turns out a respectable defeat in SC then the race is wide open.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #61)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 04:47 PM

62. Think what you like

Raising worker pay does not:

Keep from moving jobs overseas.
Take immigration off the table as a key issue.
Do anything about climate change.
Keep police from disproportionately targeting minorities for search, arrest and indiscriminate killing.
Keep the flow of illegal drugs into the country.
Close Guantanamo.
Provide infrastructure that allows us to be more competitive.

I can list a hundred others. Income inequality can be a lead, but it's not nearly as dominating as the Sanders crew makes it out to be. That's why the poll numbers suck.

I won't comment further on your need to "balance" the vitriol. You are entitled to your own reality.

I've also heard the name recognition meme tons here on DU and elsewhere. There have been multiple debates, he's going nowhere in minority communities...no matter how much anyone wishes it were so.

As far as what states he'll win, I'd be surprised if he won a single state with the message currently being projected....and I'm NOT saying I won't vote for him. The messaging is so damned inept it's really hard to believe they could screw it up this bad. People want to vote for a vision, not a one-dimensional view of who their "enemy" is.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #62)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 04:56 PM

63. Thank you, I usually do and I'll continue doing so.

 

I'm not sure why you just picked a list of things that aren't directly affected by this, it seems like rather an odd thing to do. Especially after I clearly said that it wasn't a cure all for every issue, which would be silly of course. Comically though you've managed to pick a list of issues which Sanders has also addressed most of directly with solutions for exactly how he wants to fix them.

You keep repeating this stuff about his poll numbers 'sucking' though, and that's what I find really strange. For the candidate who started on 3%, his poll numbers are incredible and increasing steadily. His last month has been superb quite frankly. Making up 17 points on Hillary with AA voters in one month is not exactly 'going nowhere'.

Please continue with the 'inept campaign', 'won't win a single state' stuff though, it's good for a laugh if nothing else. People have been lecturing for months on how he's doing everything wrong, and how no-one likes angry etc etc. So far he's making them all look like fools.



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Response to Kentonio (Reply #63)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 05:30 PM

65. Well...at least you are not the only one laughing.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #56)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:57 PM

60. Wow.

This could be an OP.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #56)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 06:46 PM

69. +1

 

Best post in this thread.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:04 PM

75. It's not being held today, so no worries.

 

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #75)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:05 PM

76. Soon. Over by march. Then, PARTAY!

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #76)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:06 PM

78. Hope she's planning for AFTER Super Tuesday. She blew that due to arrogance last time.

 

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #78)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:13 PM

81. Yep. This time she snagged as many endorsements and delegates that she could.

 

Non stop shoring up her base, GOOD RELATIONSHIP with the black community where others FAILED due to outreach issues. And with LATINOS she is doing amazing where OTHERS FAILED to discuss issues in a way that is important to them. I am one of those cuspers. Too black to be latino, but too much latino to not get asked 'what are you' in spanish and then have to speak spanish to assure them I am black. Having a spanish name and knowing the language and having biological connections to a community helps guage what they are going to do. HILLARY FTW!!!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #81)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:14 PM

82. Hope this time she's not so cranky when they switch to Bernie.

 

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #82)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 07:17 PM

83. They won't.

 

Our communities do not like certain things about his campaign and nobody cares what we want so.... No Bernie. Thanks. Noting to appeal to black voters in that group, hispanics are not interested for the most part. If we see a lack of diversity, we will not even give it a second look. Maybe a side eye.

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #78)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:04 PM

89. I'v already reported on Robby Mook's campaign strategy

...and the fact that they know they have to compete more aggressively in Caucus States. So, no worries.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:02 PM

87. So he's in touch with reality?

Are we Sanders supporters supposed to be offended by this?

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Response to LoveIsNow (Reply #87)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:07 PM

92. Offended? Hell no! Proud of what a damn good guy he is!

 

And watching to see him put the BERN to Republicans when he tears them to pieces in the Senate.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:08 PM

93. Maybe he's starting to feel his Bern due to low polling numbers and flat trend lines.

Let alone his own peers in Washington aren't lining up behind him. He has been campaigning for almost 7 months people know who he is and have heard his message. At this point doesn't seem to be working.

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Response to FloridaBlues (Reply #93)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:11 PM

94. It happens.

 

Nothing wrong with calling it a day and moving on to the next battle. He did good, better than expected. But there are thing that are needed to win, he did not start early enough on building a winning coalition. Not enough planning or outreach.

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