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Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:04 AM

 

But, but .. "Americans would NEVER elect a Democratic Socialist as President!!!!!"

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Reply But, but .. "Americans would NEVER elect a Democratic Socialist as President!!!!!" (Original post)
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 OP
CaliforniaPeggy Dec 2015 #1
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #4
draa Dec 2015 #5
Eric J in MN Dec 2015 #8
neverforget Dec 2015 #11
1monster Dec 2015 #13
JDPriestly Dec 2015 #21
senz Dec 2015 #23
CorporatistNation Dec 2015 #2
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #3
roguevalley Dec 2015 #32
mythology Dec 2015 #6
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #9
FloridaBlues Dec 2015 #58
tazkcmo Dec 2015 #60
Jim Lane Dec 2015 #62
Uncle Joe Dec 2015 #15
Scuba Dec 2015 #54
Yallow Dec 2015 #7
akbacchus_BC Dec 2015 #14
akbacchus_BC Dec 2015 #10
pa28 Dec 2015 #12
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2015 #16
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #17
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #18
Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #20
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #26
Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #29
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #30
Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #31
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #38
Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #40
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #41
Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #44
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #46
Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #51
SCantiGOP Dec 2015 #82
roguevalley Dec 2015 #33
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #37
cascadiance Dec 2015 #76
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #83
cascadiance Dec 2015 #86
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #91
cascadiance Dec 2015 #92
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #93
Scuba Dec 2015 #56
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #84
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #24
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #34
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #35
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #39
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #42
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #45
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #48
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #49
Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #52
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #64
Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #73
Rose Siding Dec 2015 #87
treestar Dec 2015 #67
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #71
cascadiance Dec 2015 #77
treestar Dec 2015 #66
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #72
AZ Progressive Dec 2015 #22
Drunken Irishman Dec 2015 #25
AZ Progressive Dec 2015 #53
treestar Dec 2015 #69
FloridaBlues Dec 2015 #59
Name removed Dec 2016 #94
jmowreader Dec 2015 #19
Zynx Dec 2015 #27
NanceGreggs Dec 2015 #28
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #36
NanceGreggs Dec 2015 #43
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #47
NanceGreggs Dec 2015 #50
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #68
NanceGreggs Dec 2015 #88
underthematrix Dec 2015 #57
treestar Dec 2015 #70
JunkyardAngel83 Dec 2015 #89
redstateblues Dec 2015 #61
Scuba Dec 2015 #55
brooklynite Dec 2015 #63
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #75
redstateblues Dec 2015 #78
99th_Monkey Dec 2015 #79
redstateblues Dec 2015 #80
Ferd Berfel Dec 2015 #65
Gothmog Dec 2015 #74
redstateblues Dec 2015 #81
NuclearDem Dec 2015 #85
brooklynite Dec 2015 #90

Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:14 AM

1. Now, I've always had huge respect for FDR.

However, it wasn't because the people loved him so much that caused him to be reelected over and over.

That may have been part of it, but mostly it was because we were in WWII and it was thought unwise to "switch horses in mid-stream."

I mean, really.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:29 AM

4. If I was looking for a plausible excuse to entirely miss the point of the OP

 

that would be a good choice.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:31 AM

5. I agree with this as well. WW2 was the reason.

I think the OP was trying to have a little fun though. I don't believe he meant much with this OP anyway so it's ok.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:37 AM

8. FDR won 3 presidential elections before the US entered WWII. (NT)

NT

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:38 AM

11. The 1940 election was for his 3rd term and his 4th in 1944.

We didn't enter WW2 until 1941.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:53 AM

13. He was first elected in 1932; second time was 1936; third time was 1940.

All of those elections were before the US was involved in WWII. He was only reelected once after we entered the War. That time WWII was probably a major factor, but you can't say that about the first three times.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:49 AM

21. My mother was born in 1916. She lived through the Great Depression.

FDR insured that her family and other families, especially my dad's survived and that the kids could go to school.

People kept voting for Roosevelt because they adored him like no president has ever been adored.

To her dying day, my mother adored FDR.

Don't believe the Republican mythology that has been created to downplay just how much Americans loved FDR. The truth is that most Americans worshiped him.

Most of them, unfortunately, are no longer living to call out all the lives about why they kept voting for FDR.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:06 AM

23. His sole wartime election was not war-based.

 

Wikipedia describes it thus:

Roosevelt replaced {Vice President} Wallace with Missouri Senator Harry S. Truman, best known for his battle against corruption and inefficiency in wartime spending. The Republicans nominated Thomas E. Dewey, the liberal governor of New York. The opposition lambasted FDR and his administration for domestic corruption, bureaucratic inefficiency, tolerance of Communism, and military blunders. Labor unions, which had grown rapidly in the war, threw their all-out support behind Roosevelt. Roosevelt and Truman won the 1944 election by a comfortable margin, defeating the Dewey and his running mate John W. Bricker with 53.4% of the popular vote and 432 out of the 531 electoral votes.[266][page needed] The President campaigned in favor of a strong United Nations, so his victory symbolized support for the nation's future participation in the international community.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:24 AM

2. FDR Was Certainly One of If Not Our MOST Beloved President EVER...

He worked on behalf of the people as did his wife Eleanor... This was over and above the fear of changing Presidents in mid stream.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:26 AM

3. +10 well said. nt

 

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:00 AM

32. absolutely people don't know very much about our own

history. they voted for him because they loved him. The war was secondary.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:34 AM

6. Did FDR call himself a socialist?

 

Also are we in the middle of a great depression?

And was there a poll in 1932 where half of respondents said they wouldn't vote for a socialist?

I get that presidential elections only come around every 4 years but it's really hard to extrapolate a lot from an elections 75-85 years ago as relevant to today.

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Response to mythology (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:38 AM

9. FDR did what we both know he did, and was called a "socialist" for doing it.

 

Bernie's doing what he's doing, fighting for the same things FDR fought for (and
was dearly loved by the American electorate for doing it) and the more people know
about Bernie, the more they love him as well, for many of the same reasons.

It's called genuinely fighting tooth & nail for what TPTB call 'the little people'.

Ignore this ^ or rationalize it away if you like, but we both know it's true.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 07:01 AM

58. He may have been called socialist but he was and his family were registered Democrats

Nice spin tho we all know republicans call us socialists doesn't mean FDR was a registered socialist
By the way Bernie is no FDR or Obama if you love him so much stop trying to make him into other people!!!!

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Response to FloridaBlues (Reply #58)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 07:35 AM

60. Personally, I don't "love" Sanders.

I do, how ever, have a great deal of respect for him. I trust him to do exactly what he says. I always clearly understand his positions of which I do "love" 99% of. I can say none of the above for HRC because she is dishonest, inconsistent in her public statements and actions, and untrustworthy due to the first 2 reasons.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 08:46 AM

62. Quite right.

 

Here's a good article on how the Republicans tried to use the "socialism" charge to defeat Social Security, and how FDR handled them: "President Barack Obama could learn from Franklin D. Roosevelt".

It wasn't just FDR -- the Republicans also cried "socialism" when LBJ got Medicare through.

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Response to mythology (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:14 AM

15. Income and wealth disparities are similar to the late 1920s just before the Great Depression






We recently experienced the Great Recession, if our policies don't dramatically improve I see no reason as to why a Great Depression won't happen again, I also see no reason to wait until that happens before we act.

Furthermore times have changed since the Cold War when the movie "It's A Wonderful Life" was demonized as Communist Propaganda by the McCarthy Era Witch hunts.



Did Vladimir Putin Just Endorse Donald Trump?

The Russian president heaped praise on the Republican front-runner during his annual press conference.

Putin, during the three-hour spectacle in which he took questions from hundreds of reporters, singled out Republican front-runner Donald Trump for praise.

"He is a very flamboyant man, very talented, no doubt about that," Putin said. "He is an absolute leader of the presidential race, as we see it today. He says that he wants to move to another level of relations, to a deeper level of relations with Russia. How can we not welcome that? Of course we welcome it."

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015-12-17/did-vladimir-putin-just-endorse-donald-trump



With the nation getting over our WWII and Cold War PTSD, growth of the Internet and Putin's bromance with Trump I see little upside with the Donald or Republicans in general attacking Bernie on the bogeyman "socialist" label.

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Response to mythology (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 06:29 AM

54. ...

 

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:35 AM

7. We Need Another Roosevelt, Not Another Clinton

 

Nothing against the big dog....

America needs fundamental change, like Roosevelt enacted.

Appeasing Wall Street, and begging for crumbs just won't cut it this time.

It's not like our current president had anyone prosecuted, no matter how many felonies they committed...... I really doubt Hillary would do it either.

Wall Street Banker = Above All Laws

Welcome to Amerikka.

We have always been at war with Eurasia.

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Response to Yallow (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:58 AM

14. I agree with you, America has had enough of the bushes and the Clintons.

They are old news! Mind you, I dislike Trump with a vengeance and Cruz is not an option!

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:38 AM

10. You never know! Mr. Sanders is honest and am sure

intelligent Americans understand that his philosophy is to help Americans get back on their feet. Please do not get me wrong, President Obama did more and beyond, inspite of the GOP disagreeing with him all of the time. President Obama, in my eyes as a Canadian, is the best President after President Kennedy. I really do not care for Bill Clinton, Black America adored him but he never did squat to help Black Americans. He instituted laws that adversely affected Black and gay people. I never did like Bill Clinton.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:39 AM

12. When you represent working Americans they will vote for you.

When you triangulate time after time they will stay home and you will lose at the local level, the state level and the national level and you will go the way of the Whigs.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:18 AM

16. He was elected for LIFE.

 

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:32 AM

17. FDR was not a Democratic Socialist. He never claimed to be a Democratic Socialist.

 

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:43 AM

18. If you keep saying that, over and over, you might make it "true"

 

not.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:47 AM

20. Semantics become some antics with some. Kick. Nt.

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:38 AM

26. It's not semantics. It's refuting an outright lie.

 

FDR never claimed to be a socialist. FDR never ran as a socialist. Bernie has. There is a huge difference. Calling FDR a Democratic Socialist is an absolute lie - he was never a socialist. Ever. Not at any point in his career.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:45 AM

29. Wow. Ok. Labels and actions....

FDR was absolutely hellbent against socialism said no one ever except Drunken Irishman on DU.

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:46 AM

30. You guys are good at putting words in people's mouths.

 

It's pretty remarkable. Never once said FDR was hellbent against socialism. Only said he wasn't a socialist. He wasn't. Claiming he is a socialist is as disingenuous as saying Obama is one.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:59 AM

31. Democratic socialist. Again semantics. Nt.

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:22 AM

38. Not semantics. It's a lie.

 

He never claimed to be a socialist or a Democratic Socialist. There is not one quote, or admission, from FDR in that regard. Bernie has a) openly run as a Democratic Socialist and b) considers himself one today.

FDR, at no point in his life, or political career, ever called himself, or ran as, a Democratic Socialist. Ever. Stop lying.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #38)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:28 AM

40. Ok, don't think I ever said he did.

Actions and labels.... put it this way. I could never say I am a vegetarian but meanwhile I haven't eaten meat in 20 years. Am I a vegetarian? Well I never said I was. I haven't eaten meat in 20 years but I never advertised or marketed myself as a vegetarian. Make sense?

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #40)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:31 AM

41. It's still wrong...

 

If you don't consider yourself a vegetarian you're not a vegetarian.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:39 AM

44. Aha! Semantics!

Cheers.

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:44 AM

46. It's not semantics. I don't think you understand what that word means.

 

Just because you call someone something doesn't make 'em so. Or Obama would be a Muslim Kenyan Socialist.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:56 AM

51. No, you can't willy-nilly claim something out of thin air.

However, you can attribute labels based upon actions and observable reality. I may have never announced to the world that I am asthmatic but I weaze on occasion and have been hospitalized and diagnosed as such. I never said I was though so the disease disappears? Okey doke. Say when George Bush claims to be a Christian, well his actions prove otherwise to most. FDRs actions prove he was a democratic socialist whether he claimed the moniker or not. Actions and labels. I admit it is subjective but we have to be honest with ourselves.

Did he ever claim to be a democratic socialist in those terms specifically? I don't think he did. Were his actions closely aligned with the behavior of one? Yes, I think that argument can be easily made.

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #51)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 07:20 PM

82. Give up, Drunken Irishman

Don't engage in a battle of wits when your opponent is obviously not armed.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:02 AM

33. read about his opposition. FDR didn't have to say it. Everyone against him did

you make socialist sound like its a bad thing. my grandpa was a socialist. I'm a socialist. I am also a labor union member, several and believe in the common good. That for me is all I need in my leadership, caring for the common good. Bernie is the only one who does.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:20 AM

37. And they say the same about Obama...

 

FDR didn't ever claim to be a socialist. Bernie has. That's a huge difference. FDR never considered himself one.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:46 PM

76. Hitler and the Nazis had "socialist" in their name. Does that make them in the sense of the word?..

 

NO!!!!!

The movement/philosophy that socialism is defined as is what defines it, not just that someone labels themselves as one without any basis for doing so. Bernie has basis for calling himself a *democratic* socialist, as he knows the definition of both of those terms, and he tries to be accurate to make it clear that he's NOT a communist that many who don't look at the real meanings of words confuse that with. If all they look at is labels, then why aren't the Koch brothers called out as communists, since their father made a big chunk his money with noted communist Joseph Stalin?

Bernie has noted that Eisenhower's actions in supporting a higher top margin income tax rate of 90% makes him more of a socialist than Bernie is in that area, even if Eisenhower might not have *labeled* himself a socialist.

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #76)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 07:30 PM

83. lol just stop it.

 

FDR was not a Socialist. He was not a Democratic Socialist. He was opposed by the Communist and Socialist parties in America because of it. He was a Democrat. There is no comparison.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #83)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 07:49 PM

86. You're right a "democrat" is a member of a political party. There is no comparison...

 

... between a member of a party (especially when that party's mission has been hijacked by corporatist corrupters in recent years) and a political PHILOSOPHY (NOT a party label these days) of being a "socialist" or a "capitalist", or for that matter a "fascist" or "communist".

Though perhaps one reason why FDR in his day avoided the term socialist describing anything he or his people did as members of the Democratic Party was in THOSE DAYS there was a more active "Socialist Party" then that was pushing the Democrats more towards their policies when Democrats were looking to get majority support. So in those days being a "democrat" and a "socialist" was being members of two different parties.

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #86)

Tue Dec 29, 2015, 10:14 PM

91. You're right. I am right.

 

Glad you admit it. FDR was not a Democratic Socialist. He was a Democrat. He was always a Democrat. He was a registered Democrat in every election he ran. He ran for Vice President as a Democrat. He ran for governor as a Democrat. He ran for president as a Democrat. You can't compare that to Sanders who, up until this year, was an independent and self-admitted socialist. FDR never admitted such a thing. He was not a socialist. He was not a Democratic Socialist. Saying he was is a lie - 100%.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #91)

Wed Dec 30, 2015, 03:16 AM

92. FDR can be Democrat and have SOCIALIST PHILOSOPHY just like Eisenhower arguably was socialist too!

 

... even if he were a registered Republican.

You CAN be a Democrat and have socialist philosophies, even if the corporatists pay you to say otherwise here.

And NO, Bernie, though he calls himself a Democratic Socialist, is NOT a member of the Socialist Party.

As I noted, there was a strong Socialist PARTY in FDR's day... So, when speaking of it as a party rather than a philosophy could cause different connotations in FDR's day than today.

Come back when you understand that Bernie was saying he is a "Democratic Socialist" in his philosophy, not a member of that party, since it doesn't exist here. And arguably, other Democrats share that philosophy more, and many traditional Democrats would respect their candidates if they have more of that philosophy than the corporate serving borderline fascist approach that many other Democrats have today that had them lose in elections in states where propositions to raise the minimum wage (more what Democratic Socialists would want!) won in those same states in the same election.

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #92)

Thu Dec 31, 2015, 01:43 AM

93. That does not make him a Democratic Socialist.

 

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 06:33 AM

56. He never called himself that, but his enemies did and his policies were exactly that.

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 07:31 PM

84. And Obama's enemies call him socialist too...

 

Doesn't make him a socialist.

FWIW, many Socialists opposed the New Deal because they felt it was a give away to corporate America.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:35 AM

24. It is true. Show me a quote where he claimed to be a socialist.

 

Bernie has openly claimed to be one - FDR never claimed such a thing. Stop putting words into dead politicians mouths.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:04 AM

34. Politifact: Obama right that Roosevelt was called a socialist and a communist

 

Does this allay any of your "concerns" about "putting words into dead politicians mouths"?
The president was accused of being "a socialist, not a Democrat." His plan was described as "undisguised state socialism." One critic, who controlled some powerful media outlets, suggested that communists had infiltrated the president's administration.

Those are some of the attacks that Franklin Delano Roosevelt faced in the 1930s — attacks cited recently by President Barack Obama to emphasize that he's not unique.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/22/barack-obama/obama-roosevelt-socialist-communist/

If not, then perhaps you should take that up with with President Obama. (202) 456-1111

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:19 AM

35. Uh...Obama has been called a socialist and a communist...

 

So, by your logic, that makes him one? Are you seriously not grasping the difference between being called one and calling yourself one? FDR was called a socialist - THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS CALLING YOURSELF A SOCIALIST.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:25 AM

39. Bernie "calling himself a Socialist" takes the issue head-on, and guess what?

 

Most of "the little people" are smart enough to not give a rat's ass about labels & semantics,
but rather care much more about the real issues effecting their well being, as the FDR quote I
shared illustrates.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:32 AM

42. We're not debating what the little people think...

 

FDR never claimed to be a Democratic Socialist. Calling him one unfairly characterizes his political philosophy and it's the wrong thing to do - especially since many socialists of that era did NOT support FDR, in fact, running their own candidate, Norman Thomas, in the 1932 election (as did the Communist Party and Socialist Labor).

Read what Norman Thomas had to say about FDR and the New Deal just to get the view of what true socialists thought of his administration.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #42)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:39 AM

45. Boo Hoo

 

If saying that is so "wrong" then feel free to alert the OP.

Otherwise, meh.

There IS a powerful truth embedded in this meme that clearly upsets you, and it is NOT
about whether FDR self-identified as a "Democratic Socialist".

We both know this, so please stop with the bickering about mere semantics.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #45)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:44 AM

48. I'm not going to alert. But it's wrong. It's factually wrong.

 

It's no different than when the right call Obama a fascist.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #48)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:52 AM

49. Your concern is duly noted.

 

Sorry, but not sorry.

The larger truth embedded in the meme stands much taller than mere
bickering about labels & semantics, like it or not.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #49)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:58 AM

52. Yep.

Went to read the whole thread again and it seems you and I have been arguing the same thing.

Cheers!

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Response to Juicy_Bellows (Reply #52)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:18 PM

64. Like my gf, just said: 'if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck... "

 

Thanks for weighing in on the thread.

Quite a frantic swarm of "concern", all about one little FDR meme. Must have his
some kind of raw nerve.

I do think the more FDR comparisons & similarities are brought into public view, the
better Bernie will fare in the elections, maybe even more in the GE.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #64)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:16 PM

73. Yeah, like an ice cold slurpee right before a root canal!

More FDR comparisons can only help.

Cheers!

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #64)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 10:34 PM

87. Not the first time BS and camp have tried to co-opt Dem achievements.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:31 PM

67. Disagree about most of the little people

that's why the right uses labels like "socialist" and "Muslim" for Obama. They know he is neither, but they know they can stir up a good segment of the voters with the suggestion.

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Response to treestar (Reply #67)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:16 PM

71. But you are making my point. Obama was one thing. Bernie is quite another.

 

Obama denies & shrugs-off being labeled 'socialist'; whereas Bernie says "Hell yah I'm a socialist"

You're right of course that the RWers trot out "socialist" and "Muslim" to slime Obama, but here's
where that ends. Bernie embraces & celebrates his socialist leanings and it's turning all that crap
around, calling it out, laughing at it; and many voters (even 25% of Vermont GOP voters),
are beginning to wakeup enough to look past the labels to see they've been bamboozled into voting
against their own best interests, and are not falling for it anymore.

Increasingly, voters of all stripes outside of Vermont (where Bernie is most known and loved) are
coming to know and love Bernie, are coming to see that his brand of socialism is as American as
FDR eating apple pie, and are becoming impervious to being manipulated & intimidated into voting
against their own best interests.

When Bernie first announced, I might have been more inclined to agree with you, that the 'socialist'
thing was a non-starter; but the way he takes it head-on unapologetically is turning all that around,
and it is not hurting him one bit anymore. The fact that Bernie is running a lot stronger
against ANY one from the clown car now than Hillary, amply illustrates this point, as does his ability to
attract GOP cross-over voters.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:49 PM

77. He also strongly asserts "democratic socialist" as the term that describes himself...

 

... so people are less confused about how a government sets up a system of socialism so that it can't be confused with other systems like the Nazis and the Communists that weren't democratic but also called themselves "socialist" too.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:29 PM

66. Then find a speech or piece of writing

where FDR called himself that.

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Response to treestar (Reply #66)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:29 PM

72. FDR was then, Bernie is now. Completely different milieu.

 

In FDR's day, you're right that it would have been political suicide for him to openly self-identify as
a socialist; but history lends perspective when hind-sight reveals that "oh my, actually I LOVE my
Social Security, and I WANT a decent livable wage, and if that's socialism, then who cares?"

You know that FDR was accused of being a socialist, and while he couldn't fully embrace it like Bernie
can, he did famously say -- in defense of his 'socialist' ideas -- "I welcome their hatred" referring to
greedy Oligarchs who despised him.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:55 AM

22. See this and tell me that FDR was not a Democratic Socialist

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Response to AZ Progressive (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:36 AM

25. Watched. Didn't hear once FDR say anything about socialism or claimed to be a Democratic Socialist.

 

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 05:43 AM

53. What he said is pretty much in line with Democratic Socialism

Deny it all you want but anyone else seeing that video that knows what Democratic Socialism is would agree that what he is saying is pretty much Democratic Socialism.

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Response to AZ Progressive (Reply #53)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:33 PM

69. Still he did not use that label on himself as Bernie has

and so the argument that the right wing would use that, in the hypothetical where Bernie is this year's Democratic nominee, against him in their usual right wing way, and even have Bernie saying so, whereas they don't have that for Obama or FDR.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 07:04 AM

59. Thank you but reality doesn't exist here!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #17)


Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 02:46 AM

19. Fox News wasn't in business when Roosevelt was in office

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:42 AM

27. FDR made some political compromises that make Hillary Clinton's look downright puny.

Of course, that spoils the narrative.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 03:45 AM

28. He never claimed to be a socialist ...

... nor did he ever identify himself as such. Bernie has.

Not understanding the difference makes you incredibly politically naive.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:20 AM

36. FDR was accused of being a "socialist" by his political foes.

 

Yet FDR wore it as a badge of honor, refusing to bicker about semantics, but rather
redirecting the discussion to issues important to 'the little people' i.e. income inequality,
decent wages, etc..

FDR was accused of being "a socialist, not a Democrat." To which he rebutted;
"The American people will not permit their attention to be diverted from real issues to fake issues which no patriotic, honorable, decent citizen would purposefully inject into American affairs."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/22/barack-obama/obama-roosevelt-socialist-communist/

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:33 AM

43. I repeat ...

... he never called himself a socialist, nor identified himself as such. Bernie has.

Again - if you don't understand the difference, you are incredibly politically naive.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #43)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:44 AM

47. Bickering about semantics does not overly interest me.

 

What DOES interest me, is the powerful truth embedded in the meme/OP.

When a politician TRULY addresses the real issues voters actually care about -- as did
FDR and as does Bernie -- then guess what? They WIN elections, over and over, just
like Bernie has done in Vermont for decades, with as much as 25% of GOP voters happy
to support him.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:54 AM

50. If you think ...

... this comes down to "semantics" - well, as I said, you are obviously and incredibly politically naive.

And if you think Vermont voters are representative of the other 49 states - well, need I repeat myself on the topic of your political naivete?

I think the point has been made. And I'm not surprised that you've missed it.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:32 PM

68. The condescension is getting very thick ..agh, it's hard to breath.

 

Name-calling me "naive" over and over takes absolutely nothing away from the important truth
conveyed in the FDR meme.

We've had this conversation already, about Vermont being/not-being "representative" of the nation.
You've added nothing to that, and I'm not inclined to re-haggle all over again; except to say that
it is an incontrovertible fact, that (D, I or R, it matters not) the MORE voters know about Bernie,
the more support he gets from voters, Vermont is where he's best known.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 28, 2015, 03:56 AM

88. I thought calling you "naive" ...

... was actually the polite way of putting things.

And I don't believe we've ever had a conversation about Vermont - you're thinking of someone else.

You're also waaaay off-topic at this point. FDR never identified himself as a socialist. BS has. And if you think that doesn't have consequences, you're again being incredibly - uh, "naive".

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 06:34 AM

57. Have you read the actual history or watched the American Experience vids on his amazing presidency

Even FDR had to bend to politics. There was no straight line from policy to implementation. It was very very tough and there were trade-offs.

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Response to underthematrix (Reply #57)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:34 PM

70. +1

In the actual presidency 85 years ago, the BS supporters of DU today would be talking "betrayal" for the compromises.

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Response to underthematrix (Reply #57)

Mon Dec 28, 2015, 04:34 AM

89. Thank you!

 

Good grief.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 08:41 AM

61. Words have meaning.

FDR never called himself a Socialist. Bernie has. That's a huge difference.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 06:30 AM

55. Americans have rejected socialism over and over again, right?

 

Oh wait, no they didn't...

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 09:42 AM

63. I see...FDR was a "Democratic Socialist" because an internet graphic says so...

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #63)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:36 PM

75. FDR's political foes incessantly accused him of being a Socialist, just like Obama's have. n/t

 

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #75)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 05:07 PM

78. You've twisted yourself into a pretzel

by trying to prove something you can't. FDR did not call himself a Socialist. Obama did not call himself a Socialist. Bernie did. Stop making stuff up.

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Response to redstateblues (Reply #78)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 05:15 PM

79. Oh please. I'm not even trying to "prove" FDR "called himself a Socialist".

 

In FDR's day, you're right ... it would have been political suicide for him to openly self-identify as
a socialist; but history lends perspective when hind-sight reveals that "oh my, actually I LOVE my
Social Security, and I WANT a decent livable wage, and if that's socialism, then who cares?"

You know that FDR was accused of being a socialist, and while he couldn't fully embrace it like Bernie
can, he did famously say -- in defense of his 'socialist' ideas -- "I welcome their hatred" referring to
greedy Oligarchs who despised him.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #79)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 06:17 PM

80. Glad you've given up on that. It didn't work

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 01:21 PM

65. Mic drop - K&R

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 04:29 PM

74. Good luck with this concept

Sanders may look competitive now but the Kochs and the RNC will bury Sanders in several hundred million dollars of negative ads using the terms "socialist" and "socialism." Neither term polls well now and these terms will be radioactive after this much in negative advertising.
From Pew http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/little-change-in-publics-response-to-capitalism-socialism/



The word ‘socialism’ triggers a negative reaction for most Americans, but certainly not for all. Six-in-ten (60%) people say they have a negative reaction to the word, while just 31% have a positive reaction. Those numbers are little changed from April 2010....

By contrast, socialism is a far more divisive word, with wide differences of opinion along racial, generational, socioeconomic and political lines. Fully nine-in-ten conservative Republicans (90%) view socialism negatively, while nearly six-in-ten liberal Democrats (59%) react positively. Low-income Americans are twice as likely as higher-income Americans to offer a positive assessment of socialism (43% among those with incomes under $30,000, 22% among those earning $75,000 or more).



From Gallop http://www.gallup.com/poll/125645/Socialism-Viewed-Positively-Americans.aspx

PRINCETON, NJ -- More than one-third of Americans (36%) have a positive image of "socialism," while 58% have a negative image. Views differ by party and ideology, with a majority of Democrats and liberals saying they have a positive view of socialism, compared to a minority of Republicans and conservatives.



....Socialism

Socialism had the lowest percentage positive rating and the highest negative rating of any term tested. Still, more than a third of Americans say they have a positive image of socialism.

Exactly how Americans define "socialism" or what exactly they think of when they hear the word is not known. The research simply measures Americans' reactions when a survey interviewer reads the word to them -- an exercise that helps shed light on connotations associated with this frequently used term.

There are significant differences in reactions to "socialism" across ideological and partisan groups:

A majority of 53% of Democrats have a positive image of socialism, compared to 17% of Republicans.
Sixty-one percent of liberals say their image of socialism is positive, compared to 39% of moderates and 20% of conservatives

The Kochs will have great deal to work with if Sanders is the nominee.

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #74)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 06:44 PM

81. Stop using corporatist, Oligarchical polling data

to make the word Socialism look like it has negative connotations. Everybody knows that being a self avowed Socialist would be a big plus in the GE. Surely the opposition wouldn't use it against Bernie.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Sun Dec 27, 2015, 07:45 PM

85. Bernie Sanders is not Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and 2016 America is not 1932 America.

 

If you'd pick up a history book, you'd know that.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Original post)

Mon Dec 28, 2015, 08:18 AM

90. Remember when Sanders made a "major policy speech" on Democratic Socialism?

Not so effective?

The fact that you're still trying to sell the concept months later reinforces a previous comment of mine: if you have to spend time explaining why Democratic Socialism isn't bad, you've already lost the argument.

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