What EVERYBODY is missing about the 47%

[BlueStreak]

It shouldn't surprise anybody that Romney holds commoners in contempt. That' isn't news.

The issue that I haven't heard a single person talk about is the 47% number. Obviously Romney's implication is that the 47% is people like that lazy black welfare queen -- the same woman that Reagan demonized.

But the big issue is that Romney's arithmetic doesn't add up, just like everything else that comes out of Romney's mouth. We all know that most African-Americans are not lazy, shiftless, or dependent on the government. But just for sake of argument, let's say every last African-American is in that group that earns Romney's contempt. Well, that is only 13%. That still leaves another 34% and most of them are white. And guess what? A good percentage of them are the Christian fundamentalists that Romney is trying to court.

But the arithmetic is actually a lot worse than that.

47% of what? 47% of Americans. That isn't 47% of working people. It isn't 47% of working-age Americans. It isn't even 47% of people over 18 years old. It is 47% of all Americans.

So that 47% includes 3-year-olds. How much tax should they be paying to not have Romney's contempt?

It includes the elderly. How much should an 85-year-old Alzheimer's victim pay in income tax in order to get any compassion from Mr. Romney.

It includes students. How much tax should the 21-year-old full time medical student pay in order to not be considered shiftless and lazy by Mr. Romney.

It includes the disabled. It includes the unemployed. It includes parents who choose to stay at home to raise children. They don't pay any tax. They are part of the 47% freeloaders according to Mr. Romney.

Why is this bullshit going without a challenge? I have heard this for months and I have yet to hear one public figure challenge the 47% number. What will it take to get Democrats off their butts and challenge this stuff?

[valerief]

1. I just posted this. Well, partially.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021364858

[BlueStreak]

5. Thank you. At least there is one person out there who sees through this bull..

[Tx4obama]

2. And it includes OUR TROOPS overseas who are Obama supporters.

And all the Democrats in Congress and other political offices.

And even our Supreme Court Justices - the ones that support Our President.

Yes, Romney was talking about ALL of the Obama supporters.

Me, you, everyone!

[BlueStreak]

7. Point of clarification

I'm not in the military and I'm not under Social Security yet. But I think military income is taxable. Is that correct? And are Social Security benefits taxable?

And I would point out that there are a lot of rich people who inherited virtually all their money, and they often show some capital gains but little or no income subject to income tax.

[Tx4obama]

10. The way I heard him say what he said was ...

that he was talking about ALL of Obama supporters.

America:
47% of Democrats support Obama
5 - 7 percent Independents
the rest are the republicans that support Romney.

Anyway, bottom line is Romney is a ass and should be disqualified.

[BlueStreak]

15. He mixed up the two groups "Obama supporters" and "the shiftless class"

I've listened to his talk about 10 times. He seems to equate the two. He seems to be saying 47% of Americans are lazy, shiftless and dependent on the government, and these are the Obama base. My job is to get "my 47%" and then win a majority of the ones who are left over.

That isn't exactly what he said, but that's the way it came across to me.

In other words, nobody who works for a living would ever vote for Obama.

[dkf]

3. No it's 47% of tax units which I suppose is per tax return.

Kids will be included on their parents return.

[BlueStreak]

4. He said "47% of Americans"

[valerief]

6. Right! nt

[BlueStreak]

8. And this is my point. We are letting these bastards get away with an absurd claim

We should not correct their facts by saying, "well what they probably meant was this ..."

No, our job is to call out the lies and the absurdities of WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAY. If ROmney wants to revise his claims, then so be it.

[dkf]

13. Well he is citing a statistic which refers to tax units.

[BlueStreak]

16. He is MISQUOTING the statistic then.

He twice quoted the statistic and never mentioned tax units. He clearly said "47% of Americans."

It is not our job to excuse or perfect his statements. What he said was enormously misleading, and intentionally so.

[Indpndnt]

19. And he didn't clarify his statements in tonight's emergency press conference.

He definitely said what he meant and it had nothing to do with "tax units." He meant all Americans, as you said. His remarks were "off the cuff," meaning they weren't scripted. They came from his 'heart.'

[dkf]

21. That wasn't for public consumption. It was for people who probably already know what it represents.

[BlueStreak]

25. How do you know what Romney meant?

His meaning seemed clear enough. He said it twice. "47% of Americans".

And what difference does it make? The statistic wasn't the essence of his argument. His argument is that about half of the American public is freeloaders just leeching off the people like Romney and his billionaires who really make America great.

Regardless of how the 47% number might be defined with precise accuracy, right-wingers have been running around with this meme that "47% of Americans pay no taxes" and it is high time they be called out on it.

[dkf]

26. Listen to it again...

He said his message of lower taxes isn't going to appeal to people who already pay no federal income taxes...that Obama already had them and that is why he is writing them off.

This was an analysis on who he thought he could get to vote for him.

[BlueStreak]

32. So on that basis, you are saying what he really meant was ...

"47% of eligible voters pay no income tax."

He didn't say that. He can clarify what he meant. He said "47% of Americans". Until he amends that, that is his statement.

You are not adding anything to anybody's understanding by saying "he probably should have said ..." He DID say -- twice -- 47% of Americans. And then he went on to say 48%, 49%. Clearly he was NOT citing a specific study. He was generalizing.

[kestrel91316]

28. STOP. DEFENDING. ROMNEY.

[dkf]

29. I can't handle reading stuff that is off in its assumptions.

I feel this need to set things straight or it drives me nuts.

[musicblind]

30. dkf is actually correct on this. There is a study that claims that.

And the study claims it per tax unit... it doesn't mean the study is right, or that what Romney said is right.

What Romney said was awful, but dkf is not defending what Romney said. This person is defending the accuracy about the source of Romney's quote.

Here is a link: http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/26/pf/taxes/income-tax/index.htm

What Romney ACTUALLY hides is that if you include payroll taxes then that number drops to 18%... a huge difference.

[BlueStreak]

33. There is a study that counts the number of mosquitoes in Africa

Romney did not cite this study. He said "47% of Americans", then he talked about 48% and 49%. He clearly was not citing a specific study. He was generalizing.

[renaissanceguy]

67. Right. That's a very bold "fact"

...to state without really checking the details behind it. He is so out of touch!


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.619026493

[k2qb3]

9. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone...

This is a fairly standard republican talking point, in the depths of the recession 47% of filers didn't have a federal income tax burden.

For most people, the payroll tax is the vast majority of their tax burden, workers actually pay both sides of it, so it's a 15%ish flat tax on the first $110K of earned income, an incredibly regressive tax structure.

Many people also pay capital gains taxes, like Mitt Romney for instance.

The income tax pays for about a third of the federal budget, in the years where the 47% applies we borrowed more money than we collected in income tax.

[qwlauren35]

63. Please explain payroll tax.

Is there another name for it? Is this the social security/medicare tax? I have never seen a "payroll tax" on my W-2 or my pay stub. I'm sorry to be so ignorant, but this REALLY confuses me.

[thecentristword]

11. 47% still pay PROPERTY TAXES, PAYROLL TAXES, SALES TAXES, LOCAL TAXES, STATES TAXES, etc. etc.

F**k u Romney!

[pansypoo53219]

17. that's what i told my fux gnews meme epal.

but she said that WASN'T ENOUGH!!!!

[veuillez31]

46. Obviously we are speaking of Federal taxes

Don't cloud the issue.

[BlueStreak]

12. FINALLY, Krystal Ball cracked open the 47% number

On The Last Word.

Good job Krystal. Rachael is off her game. She usually nails the important issues like this.

Maybe she will devote a few minutes to this tomorrow.

[BlueStreak]

20. Kudos to E. J. Dionne. He also broke it down on the Ed Show

He specifically mentioned seniors on social security, retired military on veteran's benefits, and students going to school on loans so they will have a nice income later (and play millions in income taxes).

[BlueStreak]

65. And Jon Stewart broke down the 47% effectively. Rachael and Laurence, we're still waiting.

[BlueStreak]

70. Barbara Boxer was OUTSTANDING on TRMS tonight

She was so calm and collected, and just went through the issues in a reasonable, non-hysterical way.

She nailed the 100,000 troops that are in the 47%
She called attention to the seniors that are in the 47% and reminded everybody they paid a lifetime for the benefits they are now receiving, and paid income taxes over a lifetime.
She specifically talked about a disabled person for whom just getting dressed in a major undertaking. They don't think of themselves as victims, but people with a shred of humanity try to help. [I editorialized a little there.]

And then she beautifully turned this all back to Romney's own tax returns.

It was brilliant and she never raised her voice a bit. It was almost as if she was showing pity in Romney, although she was not condescending. Pity is the right tone for this man now.

Great job, Barbara!!!

[BlueStreak]

71. President Obama gave a great rundown on the 47% in his Univision town hall

See http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/09/obama-47-percent-mitt-romney.php

This 47% thing is huge. Everybody related to it. I don't think it is going away soon -- not before the first debate, at least.

And Obama added the element of freeloaders in the 1%. There is plenty more ore to mine there. "You want to talk about taxes? Let's talk about how the 1% abuse the system. And by the way, where are your tax returns, Governor Romney?"

[BlueStreak]

14. How many likely Romney voters might be in that 47%

Let's see if the Obama campaign can find a way to wake up some of those Romney supporters.

[WallaceRitchie]

18. Romney in-fighting

If Mitt didn't pay any taxes for 10 years, does this mean he won't even be voting for HIMSELF?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

22. Romney picked the number out of a hat

[abumbyanyothername]

31. No he didn't

47% is a specific statistic floated around by the Republicans as being the % of Americans that don't pay taxes.

As pointed out above in this thread, the number is not precisely correct, and even if restated to be correct is highly misleading as it draws from 2009 data when the economy was in free fall thanks to he who name shall not be said.

And as pointed out above in this thread, many of that 47% of filers actually does pay Social Security and Medicare taxes along with excise taxes on tires, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol and firearms.

But this number is something that is tied to a specific data point.

[BlueStreak]

34. He also said "48%" and "49%". What study was he citing in those instances?

He was not citing any study. He was generalizing. His point was half the people in this country are shiftless, lazy, government dependents and they all vote for Obama.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

40. Romney probably pays less taxes than the 47

[treestar]

23. It includes people who are running a business but just scraping by

It includes people who lost their jobs during a recession.

[BlueStreak]

24. Good point. And remember, that 47% number was at the worst of the Bush meltdown.

Three were probably a lot of people running restaurants, car dealerships, hair salons, lawn care services, and many other kinds of businesses that either went out of business entirely or else lost money in 2009. Does that make them shiftless moochers just looking for a handout? I don't think so.

The real moochers were the ones one Wall Street that got trillions in interest free loans from the Fed. And ironically, you can bet than many of them didn't pay any Federal income tax either, because they knew how to move their money to tax havens like Romney did.

[doc03]

27. You guys don't get it many white Americans think nobody pays income tax

but them and everyone else is on welfare. That message works for them with much of white America and they think it is a winning issue for them.

[Delphinus]

37. Ooh,

good insight there.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

35. It also includes people with low-paying jobs

You're a single mom with two kids and you earn $35,000 per year

Take off $8,500 for the Standard Deduction, so we're down to $26,500.
Take off $11,100 for the Personal Exemption (3), so we're down to $15,400.

That's $15,400 in taxable income, for a tax of $1,706.

But with the Child Tax Credit of $1,000 per child, it elminates the tax liability. And so even though you're working 8 hours a day at a job that pays nearly $17 per hour, you're a lazy, whining victim who won't take responsibility for your life.

[BlueStreak]

38. Thank you for that analysis

That is very helpful and puts a big part of that 47% into perspective.

Any chance you could do the same thing for active military. This page has some examples of pay:
http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/military-benefits-overview.html

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

39. It's a similar story for the military...

Basic Pay is taxable income. But Basic Pay is rather low, and that's supplemented by Housing and Meal Allowances. But Housing and Meal Allowances are not taxable income. If you're an E3 (Private First Class) with four years service your Basic Pay is about $24,000. If your single or married with a kid on that pay, you're not going to be paying any taxes.

Bear in mind that if you're deployed to Afghanistan, your Basic Pay will be considered Combat Pay, which is also not taxable income.

So most of our enlisted personnel are a pack of whiners who suck at the government teat.

[veuillez31]

47. Sorry Jeff your Wrong

$35,000
with 2 children gets a $4,500 check
$2,300 for the first child and 1,200for the 2nd plus 1,000.
Thus - they get back much more than they paid.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

69. Not exactly sure where you're getting your information....

The taxpayer would have a refund from the additional child tax credit, but nowhere near that large. There would also be about $1,200 in EITC. Total refund of about $1,600ish.

But the point is, she wouldn't be paying any federal income taxes.

[Xyzse]

36. It Also Includes Some Military

Which through Mitty's acceptance speech and explanation of, that he doesn't really care about.

[veuillez31]

41. How do you challenge the facts

47% do not pay taxes.
57% collect food stamps
43% have some kind of medicaid benefits
People that work FT that earn over $50,000 pay 98%of the taxes.

[Bjorn Against]

42. You call those facts?

You don't honestly believe 57% of Americans are on food stamps do you? I am sure 47% who you claim don't pay taxes would love for you to explain to them what is being taken out of their paychecks.

[veuillez31]

48. It is a true statement

Please look it up.
They are advertsing for more.

[Bjorn Against]

53. No it is not a true statement

I did look it up, about 15% of Americans receive food assistance your number was nearly quadruple that. As far as the 47% of Americans not paying taxes that is also completely false, nearly all Americans pay taxes. You are referring to only one tax, the federal income tax and the bulk of people who don't pay federal income tax are students, elderly retirees and people who serve in the military.

[BlueStreak]

50. You are wrong on all counts

when you say "taxes" that is manifestly not true. If you changed that to "federal income taxes" it would be closer to being true, but that is a direct result of the structure BUSH put in place.

Regarding food stamps and Medicaid, you aren't even close. We have a population of 300,000,000 and the number of people receiving benefits under these programs is around 50,000,000 in both cases. I'm not good with math, but I'm thinking 50/300 is not 57%% or even 43%.

Other than those items, you demonstrated a great understanding of the issues.

[veuillez31]

43. It comes out but they get it back in April

I do tax returns.
Most people <$50,000 pay 15 in taxes and get 5,000 back

[Bjorn Against]

51. You claim most people receive a tax return more than triple what they pay in?

My god you are clueless. I would love to see your source to back up such a ridiculous assertion.

[veuillez31]

56. I didn't say most people you did

I said most people do not pay federal income tax
Not all get that much back but many do.
You only get it is you worked a little.
It's called the working tax credit.
I can tell your young and impressionable by you
constant swearing.. real classy....your parents must be proud.

[Bjorn Against]

62. Oh yes you did say most people...

These are your exact words...

"Most people <$50,000 pay 15 in taxes and get 5,000 back"

On edit: My constant swearing? Seriously? Where have I said a single swear word in this thread?

[veuillez31]

44. 1500 that is

[Bjorn Against]

49. And I am sure you were screaming about the debt when the Republicans created it

Fact: the national debt has increased at a greater rate when Republicans were in office than under Democrats. A big chunk of the current debt is a direct result of the cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Bush tax cuts for the rich.

Your claim that 31 million illegal immigrants receive free health care was pulled straight from your ass.

The claim that 41,000 doctors are retiring because of Obamacare is also ridiculous, I would love to see your citation for that number.

[veuillez31]

52. I work in Healthcare

My little hospital delivers 200 illegals per year free of charge
Get out you calculator
That doctor # comes straight from the healthcare advisory board in DC.
Check it out on their website.

[Bjorn Against]

58. I took out my calculator...

It tells me that 200 is less than 30,000,000 and even if you spread it across the whole country it is still less.

I see you hold multiple jobs that you use to claim credibility however, in post 43 you worked on taxes and now you work in health care. Interesting how your occupation changes depending on the issue you are talking about.

I did not see anything on the Health Advisory Board's website that says 41,000 doctors were leaving the profession because of Obamacare but that would represent a huge portion of the nation's doctors and I think we would be hearing a lot more about this if it were true. Provide a link to prove your claim.

[elleng]

68. No, you deliver 200 American citizens.

[Bjorn Against]

60. You do realize that most of that increase in debt is a result of Bush policies don't you?

The Bush tax cuts, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Medicare part D and the bank bailouts added huge amounts to the debt and they continue to cost us.

[BlueStreak]

64. This thread is about the 47% claim and who is in that 47%. Please stay on topic.

If you want to discuss other items, please start threads on those.

Thank you.

[xfundy]

57. Wow.

Lots of newbies in this thread. Asserting themselves. Making claims.

Just sayin'.

edit: clarity

[bkkyosemite]

59. No one in the main stream media today said

anything about Mrs. Romney calling the 47% "you people"...that shows such contempt in itself.

[bkkyosemite]

61. And it seems that Romney's 47%

includes him. By the way Mr. Romney where is those taxes? Like you know like you made your VP candidates show their 10 years in vetting. Cough them up.

[BlueStreak]

66. Nice try. He ain't givin' that up.

But let's look at his argument he gave to his fellow mega-millionaires.

People who pay no Federal income tax are slackers who have a problem with personal accountability.
But we know that 2/3 of that group pay payroll taxes, and therefore are paying an effective federal tax rate significantly higher than the 13% we already know Romney paid in 2010.

So Romney is more of a slacker with personal accountability problems than 2/3 of that 47%