Ralph Nader: Hillary Clinton a “corporatist” and “militarist”

[JRLeft]

While speaking at a D.C. bookstore, former Green Party presidential candidate and consumer advocate Ralph Nader criticized Hillary Clinton for not being the same person she was “at 30 years old,” also calling her a “corporatist” and “militarist.”

“I think Hillary is not the Hillary of when she was 30 years old,” he told his listeners. “She made peace with the power structure and she is a deep corporatist and a deep militarist. One can almost forgive the corporatism. She moved to New York with Bill because that’s where the power is and Wall Street, but her militarism is absolutely shocking.”

Nader also took to criticizing her decisions as Secretary of State, particularly regarding the War in Libya.

“She almost singlehandedly did the uh, Libyan War. The Defense Department was against it, [Robert] Gates; She persuaded the White House that it was an easy topple without knowing that in a tribal society with nothing to replace it you would have a civil war, sectarian killings spilling into Africa, weapons everywhere, Mali, central Africa and she’s being accused of Benghazi. The big thing is the huge amount of geography that has been destabilized because of the Libyan overthrow.”

Read more at the link: http://rare.us/story/ralph-nader-hillary-clinton-a-corporatist-and-militarist/

[JoePhilly]

1. Ah, this groundhog appears.

[leveymg]

29. If a friend of my enemy condemns my enemy that makes him what?

A man who doesn't know how to drive an oversteering rear-engined car. Why are we still wasting our time on this?

[enid602]

87. Sancho Panza?

But for Bernie, however this is an endorsement nonetheless. Do I sense a little bromance here? A possible VP pick, maybe? I can just see them doing a cross country whistle stop in a '61 Corvair, stopping occasionally to fight windmills.

[pengu]

150. Sanders doesn't like Nader

They're not on very good terms at all. There's zero chance he'd be the VP pick.

[sabrina 1]

265. Correction, they don't agree on some things. Eg, Nader thinks Sanders should not have run

as a Democrat, Bernie disagrees. People can disagree without disliking each other.

[MADem]

151. His groundhog buddy popped up a few days ago.

Susan Sarandon was an ardent Naderite. This cycle she's found a new idol, and furthermore, she wants us all to know what she won't do with her fiddly bits....

[sabrina 1]

263. Lol, speaking of groundhogs. Btw, she proved him right just today when she undermined President

Obama's successful peace initiatives with Iran, thank the gods, no war there as the neocons dream of.

So I guess she at least agrees with Nader on the militarization part.

[JRLeft]

264. Complete confirmation.

[onehandle]

2. Ralph Nader Admitted Wanting To Elect George W. Bush in 2000

Ralph Nader 2000 Campaign Interview:
Will Ralph Nader become Al Gore's worst nightmare?

Of more immediate interest, at least to Al Gore, are Nader's respectable poll numbers: 7 to 10 percent in California as of June, 6 percent nationally. If California tips Green enough, Bush could win the state and the whole damn election.

Which, Nader confided to Outside in June, wouldn't be so bad. When asked if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: "Bush."

http://www.outsideonline.com/1837851/ralph-nader-2000-campaign-interview

And he succeeded...

Nader flew back and forth between California and Florida, finally spending the most of the last few weeks in Florida, and fulfilling his goal of a Bush Presidency.

[MBS]

62. thank you.

I always thought that that was his preference, but hadn't seen actual confirmation before. (Certainly, his campaign alone did enough damage in itself).
Nader deserves thanks for increased car safety and other progress in consumer issues.

But his messing with the 2000 election (and later elections) has done damage to this country.

And I'm tired of his bitterness. Enough already.Please go away, Ralph. Or at least shut up.

[SusanCalvin]

67. Bingo. nt

[JudyM]

276. Ugh. I had not read that before.

[Gman]

3. This from the guy

Who has the blood of everything from 9/11 to Afghanistan to Iraq to even ISIS on his hands due to his ego.

[Ned_Devine]

61. If you think it was for his ego, you missed the big picture

[Downtown Hound]

240. No, I'm sure it was because he thought he had a real chance of winning.

[Hoyt]

4. Thanks Ralph, you are the old fool who made a bundle trashing the best car I ever had, Corvair.

Not to mention giving us george war bush.

[onehandle]

9. I often rode in a neighbor's Corvair when I was a kid.

Didn't die.

Not even once.

[Hoyt]

17. It was a very cool car, small for the time, with good gas mileage. Very different from large gas

guzzlers of the time.

[jmowreader]

99. All rear-engine cars have the same problem Corvairs have

And that is, A car with the engine behind the driver needs more tire in the back than it does in the front. You can get there two ways: by putting bigger tires in the back (as you see with top fuel dragsters, rear-engine Porsches, and Lamborghinis) or by inflating the rear tires to higher PSI than the front ones, like aircooled VWs and Corvairs. The problem was, no one who dealt with Corvairs knew that - they said to do it in the owner's manual but a lot of people ignored it. Volkswagen was different: when the car came out, they gave their dealers very specific instructions to tell their customers just how critical this was. Volkswagen Bugs are just as capable of killing their passengers as Corvairs are if you fuck up the air pressure, but Volkswagen's leadership in this held down the carnage to a reasonable amount.

Seriously guys, I could never figure out what the product development people at GM were thinking when they invented the Corvair. I can understand the impetus: the Germans were eating GM's lunch with the Beetle. Problem is, the customer was buying Beetles because they are:

* cheap to buy
* cheap to run
* easy to fix
* fun to own

and GM thought the customer was buying Beetles because:

* engine is in the back

A lot of people claim the Edsel was Detroit's Greatest Marketing Blunder. Nope, it was the Corvair. A car like the Nova, but with a cast-iron engine in it, would have been better than the Corvair.

[OnyxCollie]

81. Supreme Court Justice Ralph Nader.

I've seen DUers blame Senator Nader for the Iraq war, too.

[MADem]

153. Well, if his preference in Bush v. Gore was Bush, that's a fair accusation.

He's no mastermind, but he's like the little girl in the Shake n Bake commercial...he "hepped."

[DVRacer]

250. Omg the room is spinning

I agree with you on something. My chest feels tight right now. Lmao Hoyt I read your posts shaking my head most days feeling like you have experienced very little of the real world. Then you say something like this and totally redeem yourself. Please take this with the lightheartedness it was intended.

[Hoyt]

254. That's funny. Having lived in 8 decades, I bet I've eerienced more than you and learned from it. :)

[Bleacher Creature]

5. Why would that vile person think anyone cares what he has to say?

The fact that he didn't retreat in shame into a cave and never utter another word in public again should tell you everything you need to know about Ralph Nader.

[JRLeft]

6. What did he say that wasn't true?

[elleng]

23. Thanks.

[JRLeft]

24. Your welcome. The man is telling the truth.

[elleng]

27. Yes he is,

and always has.

[JRLeft]

34. The responders to my post know this too; which is why they are attacking the messenger and not the

message.

[dorkzilla]

75. It's always easier to be intellectually dishonest

Than to tell the honest truth, or admit it when it's staring down at you.

[JRLeft]

77. So true.

[Bleacher Creature]

45. Fine. I'll play.

His "claims" are all name calling and generalities. How can an insult be "true" or "false"? I think Nader is an asshole, but as much as I'd like for that to be the objective truth, I know it's all subjective.

I have absolutely no idea what "militarist" or "corporatist" is supposed to mean. Has Clinton supported military intervention in the past? Yes, and so have a lot of good people (including Sanders). Has she made some mistakes? Again, yes. And again, so have a lot of good people. When that crosses the line into Ralph Nader's magical definition of "militarist" is anyone's guess.

That said, I don't care what he has to say. Ralph Nader could go around speaking the most inane details about the weather 24/7, and I still don't want to hear his voice ever again. He has lost all credibility and is never getting it back.

[JRLeft]

46. A militarist is a warhawk and a corporatist, is someone who is

owned by industries. She owned by Monsanto, Walmart, MIC, financial services industry, etc.

[MADem]

158. What is a "warhawk and a corporatist?" More buzzwords! She isn't "owned" by anyone.

That's just silliness. She has enough money to do her own thing. When you have to drag in WALMART, where she was a token board director a million years ago, and of whom she's been critical in the intervening years, to "prove your point" it's clear you're not arguing from facts. The "etc." is a clue, too.

smh!

[still_one]

179. If some are looking to alienate Democrats, they certainly are doing a good

job by aligning with Nader.

This doesn't surprise me though, since there are also threads which post links from extreme right wing, anti-abortion, and anti-choice sites to defend the attacks on PP.

If they continue with this kind of nonsense, the same threats some have made regarding that they would not vote for Hillary if she is the Democratic nominee, could very easily motivate some non-Bernie supporters to take a similar stance if Bernie is the nominee.

If enough on either side decide that course, then we all lose

[MADem]

197. Really--it makes no sense!

It's like the whole Paulbot snuggling, I don't get that either.

[still_one]

200. Lol

[MADem]

157. Good post.

One thing this election cycle has taught me is that we have a cadre of generalists who like to fling buzzwords without understanding their meaning or even having a set sense of what they are saying. I always thought our crowd was smarter, now I realize we might not be--we're just on the other side of the issues.

I think Ralph needs to shut up, too--he's already Wrecked It.

I often wonder what life would have been like after eight years of a Gore Presidency. I'll bet the air in LA would be cleaner...! I think we probably would have rehabilitated Saddam and forced him into a box. Hard to know...

[JRLeft]

266. Hillary proved him right today.

[CorporatistNation]

51. Hello There... Nothing Here Can Be Disputed.. K and R!

She shows poor judgement at nearly every occasion where judgement of some kind is required. Clinton Inc. IS DANGEROUS! !

[FlatBaroque]

260. Not a darn thing.

Nothing like some good ole DU Nader Derangement Syndrome.

[840high]

56. He did not lie.

[delrem]

112. He's not vile, unless you think the US electoral system is vile.

His advocacy work has been a positive contribution.
Compared to any Republican, he's a bloody saint.
Compared to Hillary Clinton he's ... well, yes, he's preferable. But then just about anyone except a Republican is.

Laser focused hate-sessions aren't productive.

[Maedhros]

235. There's no reason to have ill feelings toward Nader.

That you do so means you are behaving in a very petty manner, and thus you belong on the ignore list.

/bye.

[Empowerer]

7. Who cares what he thinks about anything?

[leftofcool]

8. Ralph Nader is an arrogant idiot. Nice of you to drag him to DU.

[JRLeft]

11. What did he say in the article that wasn't true?

[brush]

188. He's a huge hypocrite. Pls read the link

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#hypocrite

[TheCowsCameHome]

10. The four-year cicada is back?

Damn. How time flies.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

12. I'll say it--Nader is correct. Now everyone can get back to obliterating the messenger. nt

[JRLeft]

13. Funny how none of them have refuted the man.

[brush]

189. Here you go

He's a huge hypocrite. Many of the very things he rails against, he does.

Pls read the link:

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#hypocrite

[Recursion]

262. While I am not a Nader fan, that does not debunk Nader's point

Nader may well be a hypocrite, but being a hypocrite doesn't mean your claims are wrong; just that your actions are out of sync with those claims.

[brush]

192. He's quite the hypocrite

Pls read this link:

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#hypocrite

[JRLeft]

258. Nothing on that site refuted Hillary being a corporatist.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

210. Nader is indeed correct on this one.

Been watching the Clintons since 1991. Closely. Have done a 180 from hardcore fan to realizing they are part and particle of what is wrong with the Democratic Party of today. I would opportunistic, to Nader's observation.

[Eugene]

14. Shocking militarism? Interesting words from a man who helped inflict George W. Bush on the country

and the whole world.

[JRLeft]

16. Are you denying her militarism?

[wyldwolf]

252. no more, no less than any Democratic president of the last 100 years

[99Forever]

19. That simply isn't true. But you knew that.

How about you now try addressing the topic he raised?

That is, if you can.

Step up to the plate and take a swing at it. (Or just keep sniping from the locker room.)

[brush]

191. Read this link about hypocrite Nader

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#hypocrite

[99Forever]

202. Screw that.

I don't do requests for shoot the messenger spinners that don't FIRST address the topic.


Try again.

[brush]

204. Okay, stay uninformed about hypocrite Nader.

Your choice.

[99Forever]

207. I choose the person with actual credibility.

Who hasn't had to "evolve" to be on the liberal side of issues.

[brush]

208. Hillary notwithstanding, you really should read it and find out about Nader.

[99Forever]

215. No I will not read your smear propaganda.

Is that clear enough for you comprehend?

[brush]

216. It's not smear propaganda. There are quotes from former employees of his . . .

that tried to start a union on the staff of one of his magazines for the low pay and long hours.

He squashed them with the typical hardball corporatist tactics that he rails against.

But suit yourself. Stay uninformed. Nader is not the hero many seem to think.

[99Forever]

219. Just give it up.

No means no.

[brush]

233. God! Talk about inflexible.

[99Forever]

241. Dog! Talk about incoherent.

[Vincardog]

245. It is easier to ignore the ones who won't reason.

[99Forever]

247. I personally love to...

... watch them flail about flabbergasted that someone has the audacity to not play their horseshit games.

[840high]

57. Stop lying.

[MisterP]

66. that man is called Jeb Bush

[artislife]

125. Why? Isn't anyone who meets the criteria allowed to run?

Ross Perot split the vote which allowed Clinton to win. Do you hate him?

I voted for Bill, but Nader had a right to run.

[Vincardog]

246. Aren't you conveniently forgetting the SCOTUS and their illegal unconstitutional role?

[Recursion]

269. Well, even granting that, it's not a refutation of his argument

I mean, being a hypocrite doesn't mean you are wrong.

A better avenue is probably trying to unpack what "corporatist" actually means.

[BooScout]

15. Ralph Nader???

Bwhahahahahaha

[oasis]

18. Nader's agenda remains the same as in 2000. Hand the WH over to the GOP.

That slimy crackpot has not ounce of credibility.

[Gothmog]

22. Roe v. Wade is one vote away from being history

Nader can accomplish the gutting of the Voting Rights Act, Citizens United and the elimination of Roe v. Wade

[oasis]

25. His pathetic attempt at becoming "relevant" again.

[JRLeft]

74. What did he say that was wrong?

[oasis]

107. If you vouch for his word, that's on you. Personally I

don't give a damn what that POS slime bag says now, or has ever said.

[Gothmog]

20. Nader is a sad person who no one pays any attention to now

[KingFlorez]

21. KingFlorez: Nader a "crackpot" and "senile"

Yes, I said both of those things and I am not sorry.

[JRLeft]

26. Is Hillary not a militarist and a corporatist?

[cantbeserious]

32. History Will Not Remember One Fondly

eom

[still_one]

28. LOL

[cantbeserious]

30. Know Thy Enemy - Oligarchs, Corporations, Banks And Their Media Minions And MIC Henchmen

HRC is a pawn of the The System.

[brush]

193. And so is Ralphie boy. A huge hypocrite. Pls read this link

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#hypocrite

[cantbeserious]

211. An Enemy To Whom - Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks - More Power To Him

eom

[brush]

213. I see you didn't read it

He does many of the things he criticizes others for, including the oligarchs, corporations (his huge stock holdings) and banks.

[cantbeserious]

217. I Did - All Accusations - A Character Assassination Piece

eom

[MH1]

31. Oh yeah, that's gonna help.

Go away, Ralph.

[cantbeserious]

33. Ever More Anti-Ralph Obfuscation

eom

[JRLeft]

35. Notice no one is denying what he said.

[cantbeserious]

36. With Anti-Ralphers - It's All About Ad Hominem - Never The Facts

eom

[JRLeft]

37. Blind hate without reason.

[cantbeserious]

38. Roger That On All Accounts And Particulars

eom

[JRLeft]

39. It's absolutely ridiculous, unreasonable, unsubstantiated garbage.

[brush]

194. Here are some facts on Nader himself. He's a huge hypocrite and does many of the things . . .

he rails against. Pls read the link.

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#hypocrite

[cantbeserious]

212. All Accusation - No Substance

eom

[brush]

214. I see you didn't read it either

[cantbeserious]

218. I Did - All Accusations - A Character Assassination Piece

eom

[RandySF]

40. *sigh*

We've reached the bottom of the barrel.

[JRLeft]

41. What did he say that was incorrect?

[Adrahil]

42. Fuck Ralph Nader.

Don't go away mad, Ralph, just go away. And take your ego with you.

[JRLeft]

43. I will ask you, what did he say that was incorrect?

[rjsquirrel]

155. He opened his stupid mouth

instead of crawling into a hole and shutting the hell up.

Any "democrat" who listens to a thing Nader says has Stockholm Syndrome or is a secret right winger.

[Adrahil]

168. The fact that he is speaking. Shut up Ralph.

I'm sick of bozos like him undermining the Democratic party through hyperbole and overstatement. Screw him.

[JTFrog]

44. Fuck Nader. n/t

[Renew Deal]

47. Ralph Nader: Responsible for all of the corporatism and militarism since 2001.

[JRLeft]

48. Actually that would be corporate democrats and republicans.

[Renew Deal]

49. Actually, no. It's people like you that claim there is no difference between the parties.

[JRLeft]

52. No democrats who sell out to multinational corporations are the problem.

People like you who won't vote for someone better and someone willing to change the system are the problem. That is why wages are stagnant and jobs are sparse.

[Renew Deal]

54. I voted for Gore in 2000. Did you?

[JRLeft]

60. Yes I did. I wish I didn't now, he was part of the problem.

[Renew Deal]

64. You saw the outcome of 8 years of Bush and you now wish you hadn't voted for Gore?

That statement speaks for itself.

[JRLeft]

68. Yeah, we needed real change 15 years ago after the damage Bill Clinton left behind.

[okasha]

117. Sure. Bill stole the W from your keyboard.

[JRLeft]

120. Deregulation, Nafta, telecommunications act, etc. Let's not pretend he didn't have a hand in the

economic collapse of 2007-2008.

[okasha]

124. Let's not pretend

that eight years of Bush and Republicans weren't the cause of that collapse. You're way too fond of Rattus rattus.

[JRLeft]

128. It was a combination of Congress and 4 presidents.

[baldguy]

147. It was the Republicans, and Nader helped them do it.

And it seems you're setting up Sanders to do it again. People who help Republicans gain power & get into office can't continue to claim to be progressive heroes.

Thankfully, Bernie's plans so far are apparently elsewhere.

[artislife]

129. Why?

There have been others who have run beside the Dems and the Repubs and yet they aren't blamed.

Is it because the election was stolen? Nader didn't do that. Is it because Gore didn't fight it? Nader didn't do that either.

[LanternWaste]

273. I pretend the ineffectual are too powerful also--

I pretend the ineffectual are too powerful also-- it really helps us believe what suits our biases to do so, and from that unstable, unsupported premise, we can make up anything we want to.

[ronnykmarshall]

50. From the asshole that helped elect George W Bush

Go to hell you son of a bitch and the assholes that voted for you in 2000.

[JRLeft]

53. It's Nader's fault Gore couldn't carry his own state?

[Gore1FL]

58. Gore won in 2000

Nader made FL possible to steal. He played into their hands and we got Bush.

This has nothing to do with Gore winning TN. He didn't need to win TN. He won Florida.

[artislife]

131. It wasn't the butterfly ballots?

And the hanging chads?

[Gore1FL]

163. If the votes were actuallyu counted accross FL Gore won

No need to count chads or butterfly ballots. Do you really want to rehash this discussion?

[artislife]

166. Not really

But blaming Nader for running is wrong. The loss of the election had to do with other realities.

I voted for Gore and was mad at my boss for voting for Nader, but I have had time to reflect. I used to call that election a silent coup and still think it was. If there had been no Nader, it still would have happened.

[Gore1FL]

172. Nader was a factor. That's my point. n/t

[artislife]

174. Not as nearly big as everyone likes to pin on him. That was my point.nt

[brush]

195. Nader is not worth defending

He's a huge hypocrite and does many of the things he accuses others of. Read this link:

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#hypocrite

[artislife]

196. I am defending the idea of a Nader.

The two party strangle hold wouldn't be so bad if our party didn't try to force their pick instead of us deciding who to pick.

Nader didn't lose the election. I did not and would not vote for him. But he had every right, yup constitutional and otherwise, to run.

[TekGryphon]

229. Wrong.

If there had been no Nader, there would have been no Bush.

Nader made it a razor-thin election that could be decided by a court. Without Nader, the margin would have been a solid win for Gore.

You have to engage in some seriously deluded conspiracy theories to think that the Republicans would still have stolen Florida or the election without Nader.

[artislife]

230. You have to be against real democracy to think only two parties can choose who runs for office. nt

[TekGryphon]

231. Thank you, Captain Non-Sequitur

What other neat tricks can you do?

[artislife]

234. I will give you a Ross Perot and Bill Clinton win to finish. nt

[JI7]

126. Nader couldn't carry his own state either , but his goal was for BUsh to be President

so he still got what he was going for.

so i guess he got one up over gore on that.

[iandhr]

55. If Ralph Nader had any moral fiber left in his body...

... he would crawl under a rock and never show is face in public again.

[George II]

63. It was only inevitable that the weasel who virtually elected george bush would show up....

....to bash Democrats.

The clown has no conscience.

[SusanCalvin]

65. I have no interest in Nader's opinion regarding the Democratic primary.

Or anything else regarding party politics.

[Ned_Devine]

70. This thread was a great chance for me to figure out who to put on my ignore list

After all was said and done, there are only three responses on this thread that I can see. These anti Nader HRC people make it so easy for me to delete them.

[morningfog]

72. Those who blame Nader for the 2000 theft are morons and

Lack critical thought. They also give bush ligitimacy with that bullshit. Takes shit for brains to not understand that.

[JudyM]

79. Um, what?

[artislife]

133. I think he posted "shit for brains" not sure...better reread...

Sorry a little levity...

[JudyM]

161. Ha, yep. Nt

[JRLeft]

80. Yep they've forgotten the election was stolen.

[JudyM]

84. True end result, but would it have been such a close skirmish if Nader hadn't taken votes?

Nader swung both FL and NH to Bush.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

[JRLeft]

85. Nader didn't force those people to vote for him.

[JudyM]

162. Of course not. The fact remains: he threw the election to Shrub without having a snowball's chance

of winning.

There wouldn't have been the need to do a recount.

[SusanCalvin]

100. I do not blame him for the 2000 theft.

I still don't give a rat's ass about his political opinions.

[Nyan]

73. I'm putting a few on my list right now. nt

[brush]

198. Read this and tell me if you're still pro-Nader. He's a huge hypocrite

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#hypocrite

He under pays and overworks his workers and has even busted their attempts to form a union.

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#hypocrite

[MariaThinks]

71. i loved nader until his attacks against Gore and the Democratic party

now I have nothing but contempt for this self indulgent fool

[ViseGrip]

76. What's the big deal? This much is true!

[Nyan]

78. Wow...Missing the point much?

Pay attention to what Nader said about Libya bombing, people. And Clinton's role in it, which is absolutely abhorrent.
And no. Nader doesn't get to take the blame than the Bush family and Gore.
It's reactionary, and cowardice to go after him.
Jeb and George rigged the election together, and Gore didn't put up a fight when he should have.
It's all been very convenient for them to have 3rd party candidate to take the blame for everything.

[Maedhros]

238. Hey - authoritarians react very negatively when the object of their adulation and obedience

(the Party) is defied.

[redstateblues]

82. Thanks for the Iraq war Ralph

[JRLeft]

83. You should thank Hillary, Nader didn't vote for Iraq.

[pnwmom]

86. No, but Nader got 95,000 Florida voters to vote for him instead of Al Gore.

Lying about there being no differences between the two candidates, claiming that Gore and Bush were Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

And if a small fraction of Nader's dupes had voted for Gore instead, he would have had a solid win, out of the reach of the Supreme Court.

So we can thank Nader for his helping Bush get elected and everything he did after that.

[JRLeft]

90. Those people made the decision, not Nader.

[pnwmom]

92. If Nader hadn't been running, most of the voters said to pollsters they would have voted for

Gore over Bush.

They chose to vote, but he was the one who decided to fun, and to campaign his hardest in the swing states -- even while many of his supporters were urging him not to.

[progressoid]

220. Hell, half of the registered Democrats in Florida didn't even bother to vote.

There are lots of reasons Gore lost.

If the Natural Law party, the Workers World party, the Libertarians, the Socialists, etc had voted for Gore...

If the butterfly ballot (designed by a Democrat) hadn't been used and given Pat Buchannan over three thousand votes...

If Katherine Harris and Choice Point hadn't illegally purged thousands of minority voters...

If over 200,000 Democrats hadn't voted for Bush...

Yes, Nader is an asshole, but the blame lies in many places. I suppose he's an easier punching bag though.

[pnwmom]

223. Nader was the SINGLE progressive who took 95K FL votes that Nader could

have recommended be cast for Gore -- as many of his supporters were urging him to. They didn't want him to campaign in the swing states, but he campaigned there the hardest.

Each of your 200K controlled only one vote. Nader diverted 95,000.

[progressoid]

226. See? It's easier to punch Nader than 200,000 Democrats.

[pnwmom]

228. Each of them deserves one punch; he deserves 95,000.

Most of those "Democrats" were people who had switched parties during the Reagan era -- the famous Reagan Democrats -- and never changed their registrations.

No one expected them to vote for Gore.

[redstateblues]

91. A bunch of Naderites in FL did

Bush would have never been elected without Nader and his"not a dimes worth of difference" once again: Thanks for the Iraq war Ralph and the people in FL that voted for him.

[JRLeft]

93. Hillary voted for the war, you're thanking the wrong person.

[redstateblues]

97. I love to hear Naders defenders

Try to deny that his narcissistic run had far reaching catastrophic effects.

[betsuni]

88. Blah, blah, blah, blah, corporatist. Blah, blah, blah, Wall Street.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, militarist.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, war.
Tra la la la, tra la la la la, both parties are the same.
Tra la la la, tra la la la la, WE GET IT, YOU DO NOT LIKE HILLARY CLINTON.

Same song every day.

[JRLeft]

95. Progress, you admit she's a corporatist and a warhawk.

[pnwmom]

89. And in Nader's execrable judgment, Al Gore and Bush were Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Nader was either a self-serving liar or profoundly stupid.

In either case, progressives should have learned to ignore his political opinions long ago.

[Bleacher Creature]

96. I disagree with your assessment of Nader.

I think he was both.

[pnwmom]

103. LOL n/t

[brush]

201. Heehee!

[one_voice]

94. Yeah, I remember when...

he had the bright idea of recruiting billionaires for a 3rd party run in 2016. And when he told Janet Yellen she should let her husband tell her how to do her job.

And this shit:

“This is the problem of women trying to overcompensate in becoming more aggressive and macho so they are not accused of being soft on the need to kill and war, right? Instead of taking the tradition of women of peace, and turning into a muscular waging of peace of conflict and prevention, she did the reverse, and Albright did the reverse and Anne Marie Slaughter did the reverse and some of Obama’s advisers did the reverse.”

WTF? is that. Maybe we should pop out babes while we're ironing hubby's shirt. Fuck that noise & fuck Nader.

[JRLeft]

98. It's better she slaughter innocent women and children

than to be peaceful?

[one_voice]

101. I'm pretty sure I was clear in my post..

and I know I didn't say that shit. No wonder you're a fan of Nader.

[JRLeft]

102. You basically implied it.

[one_voice]

105. Where did I imply

and I quote:

one_voice (16,530 posts)
94. Yeah, I remember when...

he had the bright idea of recruiting billionaires for a 3rd party run in 2016. And when he told Janet Yellen she should let her husband tell her how to do her job.

And this shit:

“This is the problem of women trying to overcompensate in becoming more aggressive and macho so they are not accused of being soft on the need to kill and war, right? Instead of taking the tradition of women of peace, and turning into a muscular waging of peace of conflict and prevention, she did the reverse, and Albright did the reverse and Anne Marie Slaughter did the reverse and some of Obama’s advisers did the reverse.”


WTF? is that. Maybe we should pop out babes while we're ironing hubby's shirt. Fuck that noise & fuck Nader.

JRLeft (3,741 posts)
98. It's better she slaughter innocent women and children

than to be peaceful?

I implied no such thing. What I implied what was Nader was a sexist asshole.

Bye now.

[pnwmom]

104. It's better that no one listen to sexist idiots who have already given us seriously

poor advice.

[JI7]

106. fuck this sexist asshole who dismissed Roe V Wade as not being important

[DonCoquixote]

108. Ralph

I can giuve you credit for what you have done, but the fact is, YOU, yes YOU, and all the people that voted for you, are responsible for this. Go ahead and rattle about the Reagan Democrats in Florida, the fact is, if you did not come to Florida for the express purpose of trying to be a spoiler, Bush would never have been president. period. The numbers do not lie, they did nto lie, and they never will lie no matter how many people flip themselves into pretzels forgetting that they could have stiopped it, but chose not to because they wanted an ego high.

GO TO HELL, Ralph.

[LexVegas]

109. Fuck Nader. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. There is an interesting dynamic in this thread.

Mr. Nader offered his opinion on Ms. Clinton and many posters offered their opinion of Mr. Nader. Opinions are subjective in nature, yet only the former's opinion is treated as being sacrosanct.

[JRLeft]

113. No one disproved his opinion.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

114. It's an opinion. You can't disprove an opinion.

It is my opinion Sugar Ray Leonard would have easily dispatched of Floyd Mayweather Jr. the way he dispatched of his father, Floyd Mayweather Sr.

That is an opinion that can no more be verified or refuted than Mr. Nader's opinion(s) about Ms. Clinton.

[JRLeft]

115. His opinion is a fact, she's a corporatist and warhawk. Those are proven facts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. Those appellations are subjective, ergo:

Subjective is the opposite of objective, which refers to things that are more clear-cut. That Earth has one moon is objective — it's a fact. Whether the moon is pretty or not is subjective — not everyone will agree. Facts are objective, but opinions are subjective.
subjective - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/subjective

[JRLeft]

118. They're not subjective at all. Unless you are blinded by fanaticism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

122. Let's see if we can move the ball here

The predicate:

Subjective vs Objective
Subjective information is one person's opinion. In a newspaper, the editorial section is the place for subjectivity. It can be based on fact, but it is one person's interpretation of that fact. In this way, subjective information is also analytical.

Student research papers are usually subjective, in that the writer formulates a thesis statement and uses sources that support that thesis. Bear in mind that there is usually another equally valid viewpoint that can be supported with other sources.

Objective information reviews many points of view. It is intended to be unbiased. News reporters are supposed to be objective and report the facts of an event. Encyclopedias and other reference materials provide objective information

https://www.lib.odu.edu/genedinfolit/1infobasics/subjective_vs_objective.html

I will make two statements and you can please tell me which statement is objective and which statement is subjective:

Hillary Clinton was born on October 26, 1947.

Subjective or objective ?

Ralph Nader is a vainglorious megalomaniac whose ill thought out candidacy gave us eight years of George Walker Bush and two unwinnable wars.

Subjective or objective?

Thank you in advance.

[OnyxCollie]

138. Correlation or causation?

Hillary Clinton voted to give George W. Bush permission to attack Iraq.

Correlation or causation?

The Supreme Court decided that the state of Florida could not come up with a timely, consistent manner of counting ballots, thereby ending the vote count and handing the Presidency to George W. Bush.

Correlation or causation?

"Ralph Nader is a vainglorious megalomaniac whose ill thought out candidacy gave us eight years of George Walker Bush and two unwinnable wars."

Correlation or causation?

Thank you in advance.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

139. Answers in bold

Hillary Clinton voted to give George W. Bush permission to attack Iraq.

Correlation or causation? You actually gave me an incomplete hypothetical. It's actually more of a statement.

The Supreme Court decided that the state of Florida could not come up with a timely, consistent manner of counting ballots, thereby ending the vote count and handing the Presidency to George W. Bush.

Correlation or causation? For elaboration please see previous answer.

"Ralph Nader is a vainglorious megalomaniac whose ill thought out candidacy gave us eight years of George Walker Bush and two unwinnable wars."

Correlation or causation?

Thank you in advance.

Did the candidacy of Ralph Nad(i)r sic lead or did it not lead to the sequela of events that led to the election being decided by the Supreme Court?

Thank you in advance.

Respectfully,
DSB

[OnyxCollie]

141. Hillary's Iraq war vote is correlation?

Nader's responsible for the Iraq war, but Hillary isn't? Bullshit.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

142. You asked my opinion. I gave it to you, Now you disrespect, dismiss, dehumanize, and denigrate me.

Hillary's Iraq war vote is correlation?


Nader's responsible for the Iraq war, but Hillary isn't? Bullshit.




-OnyxCollie

You asked my opinion. I gave it to you, Now you disrepect, dismiss, dehumanize, and denigrate me. I used to think empathy was the sine qua non of liberalism. That is what made us different from right wingers, used to.






Respectfully,
DSB

[OnyxCollie]

143. Aww.

The ROFL smilie is a dehumanizer.

Maybe Hillary Clinton thought that Saddam Hussein had stockpiled ROFL smilies when she voted for the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002, giving George W. Bush the authority to invade Iraq, eliminate Saddam, and create a political vacuum which led to the creation of ISIS.

Or, maybe it was the prospect of creating new business opportunities in Iraq.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

144. "The ROFL smilie is a dehumanizer."

Aww.
The ROFL smilie is a dehumanizer.

-OnyxCollie

Is laughing at someone and dismissing his or her opinions as "bullshit" an effective method of validating other human beings and letting them know they are worthy of respect?

Is or is not treating other human beings with love, kindness and respect a laudable goal?

Thank you in advance.


Respectfully,
DSB

[OnyxCollie]

145. I have no respect for those who push false narratives.

Or those who try to blame Ralph Nader for everything through some Rube Goldberg concatenation, while exempting those with the legitimately-recognized authority who are truly responsible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

152. I am sorry you feel the need to disrespect me, regardless of your rationalization.

SIGH

[OnyxCollie]

171. You are mistaken.

I'm not disrespecting you; your actions are not worthy of respect.

That's your problem.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

173. That is a distinction without a difference.

But it is easy to disrespect people on the internet.

Out of the blue you engaged me in a global discussion on correlation, causation, opinion, fact, subjectivity, and objectivity and when I gave you a response you didn't like you insulted me. It is what it is.

I am not walking away from this discussion until you apologize or withdraw from our tête-à-tête.


The choice, sir or madame, is yours.

[OnyxCollie]

176. No, it's not.

Respect is earned, not given.

If you're so easily upset, delicate flower, stay off of message boards.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

178. More insults...

No, it's not.
View profile
Respect is earned, not given.

If you're so easily upset, delicate flower, stay off of message boards.

-Onyx Collie

More insults and now a command. The latter is making me shudder while the former is making me sad.




Respectfully,
DSB

[OnyxCollie]

180. Demand? More like a suggestion.

Here's another suggestion: Keep ginning up the faux outrage and playing the victim, it suits you well.

Here's a demand: Don't bother responding. I'm putting you on ignore.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

181. Others can read it...

No, it's not.
View profile
Respect is earned, not given.

If you're so easily upset, delicate flower, stay off of message boards.

-Onyx Collie

OnyxCollie
180. Demand? More like a suggestion.
View profile
Here's another suggestion: Keep ginning up the faux outrage and playing the victim, it suits you well.

Here's a demand: Don't bother responding. I'm putting you on ignore.

-OnyxCollie

I can't put my finger on the discordance between the two responses but I know it's there.

Respectfully,
DSB

[NurseJackie]

182. Wow.

It appears that you are the one who first engaged DSB. When you didn't like his responses, you insulted him, put him on ignore to immediately shut-down the conversation. The word "unfair" doesn't seem quite right, but it's pretty close (and one that should pass jury scrutiny.)

If you're so easily upset, delicate flower, stay off of message boards.

... or just putting people on ignore is a much easier option, eh?

[OnyxCollie]

183. Responding to those who push false narratives and smears

is my civic duty, but engaging in volley of posts with someone who borrows RW tactics of feigning outrage and playing the victim instead of defending his position is a waste of my time, as is explaining my actions to cohorts of said poster.

Welcome to ignore.

[NurseJackie]

184. HA!

Welcome to ignore.

You're not the first... and you certainly won't be the last.

[1StrongBlackMan]

186. The only action DSB has performed has been the writing of his opinion ...

Unless you are shocked that DSB can type and/or put together a sentence, or otherwise communicate his opinion, this is nothing that would seem to enter the realm of respect/disrespect. (Given the context of the exchange, that seems unlikely)

So ... Don't you mean ...

You are not disrespecting DSB; his OPINIONs are not worthy of respect?

(which would put you squarely in the camp of disrespecting his opinion; and therefore, him)

[OnyxCollie]

187. I started reading your post, but then I lost interest. nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

190. I'm not surprised ... Oh Respectful One. eom.

[NurseJackie]

232. I won't say what I'm thinking...

... but it's funny as all get-out!

[1StrongBlackMan]

185. LOL ...

Where's that, "I don't think that word (those words) mean what he/she thinks they mean" thingy?

[leftofcool]

148. Here's your buddy Ralph

http://andrewtobias.com/column/apparently-im-not-the-only-one-who-thinks-ralph-nader-is-a-big-fat-idiot/

[delrem]

111. And the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. So? n/t

[okasha]

121. No.

That's how Earth rotates. The sun doesn't move.

Note the difference between unthinking cliches and facts.

[delrem]

123. Oh dear! A ditherer!

You'd have got me but relative to any observer on earth, for whom the terms "east" and "west" apply, the sun rises in the East.

Bloody idiots!
Jeez christmas! The stupidity of some people with their "gotcha's".

[okasha]

127. Well, that certainly went right over your head.

Try again.

[delrem]

130. What, to debate with someone who disputes the fact that the sun rises to the east?

No.
I don't think so.

[okasha]

132. I'm not debating with you, sweetie.

I'm making fun of you.

[delrem]

134. Well, you're certainly doing your thing, "sweetie".

Jeez.

[Lil Missy]

135. fuck nader

[senz]

137. Never thought I'd see the day that Nader seems behind the times.

I thought everybody knew by now that Hillary is a corporatist and militarist. Her supporters adore her for it and the rest of us don't. Maybe Nader should read DU more often?

He says, "The big thing is the huge amount of geography that has been destabilized because of the Libyan overthrow." He mentions "weapons everywhere" following the destabilization of Libya; did any of those weapons come of Hillary's agreements with weapon sellers while SOS? An even bigger "thing" is the massive destabilization and death that followed the Iraqi invasion, which she voted for. But she is far more directly responsible for Libya than Iraq. Poor Obama; I wonder how much he regrets having to give her the SOS position? Glad he has Kerry now.

Hillary is the queen of bad judgement. Not what we need in a president.

[joshcryer]

140. She made "peace" when she wrote "An Analysis of the Alinsky Model."

I thought this was common knowledge? Clinton has, for some 40 years, been political, in the system, part of the status quo, an overachiever, big time political wonk.

As far as blaming Clinton for Libya, had the UN not got involved, then Libya would unquestionably look like Syria right now. Syria did not have any major defections, there was no large territory taken in the early phases of the war, and it still resulted in 250k dead civilians. R2P was invoked for the first time in Libya and it resulted in a much less unstable scenario to where it's safer than a lot of Latin American countries.

Anyone who blames the UN for the actions in Libya must explain how Libya would be better than Syria when Syria had no major military defections but Libya did. When Syria had no major arms depots raided but Libya did. When Syria had no besieged cities freed from outside sources but Libya did (Misrata).

[Beacool]

146. Nader trying to become relevant.

He already did enough damage in 2000. I have zero interest in any opinion he may have on any issue.

[baldguy]

149. I don't know what's more annoying and troubling:

Nader poking his head up to attack a Democrat like some malignant groundhog, or the supposed "progressives" defending him.

Fuck Nader.

[MADem]

159. ^^^^^^^This!!!!!!!^^^^^^

[Bobbie Jo]

175. It's a toss up.

Oh yeah, Fuck Nader.

[Beacool]

225. Hear, hear!!!

[rjsquirrel]

154. Ralph Nader

is a misogynist and a paranoiac.

[FloridaBlues]

156. Seriously who cares what ole Nader thinks at this point

Nader lost his credability long time ago.

[Vattel]

160. I am not a Nader fan, but he is right about Libya.

That debacle is another foreign policy blunder by Clinton.

[NCTraveler]

164. Fuck the George Bush stooge Nader. nt.

[MineralMan]

165. Ralph Nader's Opinion Is Irrelevant in This Election.

That is all I will say about Ralph Nader, out of respect for the sensibilities of many on this website.

[raouldukelives]

167. What a meltdown.

Some blame Nader, some blame those who were in power and others blame those who put them into power.

And they are all right.

Some much more so than others in my mind. But hey, that is only because I rely on empirical evidence.

[JRLeft]

169. The Nader hate is outrageous.

[Skwmom]

170. The truth hurts. n/t

[DisgustipatedinCA]

244. The "truth" you're referring to does not in actuality hurt.

The "truth" you're referring to is that Ralph Nader, in the eyes of most of DU, is an asshole election stealing non-relevant so-and-so. And while you're free to think that, the actual "victim" here, if there is such a thing, is the truth that Nader told. Because Clinton is a militarist and a corporatist. So you can give the trite response "truth hurts", but there's only really one truth that has been suppressed in this thread.

[Skwmom]

248. Nader didn't steal the election. The Democrats lost it.

The Democrats would have won the election if Bill Clinton hadn't sold out the middle class, working class, and poor. Why do you think he lost so many seats in Congress?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

249. You're preaching to the choir.

I was listing the DU commonly-agreed-upon attitude about Nader. I don't hate him. I don't love him. He has a voice like everyone else, and a right to run for President. And he was right about Hillary when he said she's a corporatist and a militarist.

[jeepers]

177. So irrational and embraced by so many

An idea sold to us by both the democratic and republican parties to distract us while they pulled off a political coup that brought perpetual war and financial ruin down on all of us as the investors made billions. And we are focused on the shiny object a third party run by an American icon. The willfull ignorance expressed here by so many is shamefull.

[Skwmom]

199. They label anyone who tells the truth an extremist. n/t

[Maedhros]

237. It's Tea Party behavior, only from Democrats. [n/t]

[baldguy]

221. The Clinton hate is outrageous.

Really.

[olddots]

203. ignore bait threads have taken over for flame bait threads

Ah the internet evolves .

[NurseJackie]

205. Oh Ralph, Ralph, Ralph ...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

206. He's right.

[WDIM]

209. There is no denying that. nt

[Sheepshank]

222. trash this Bush loving Nader and horse he rode in on. n't

[TekGryphon]

224. The man who gave us 8 years of Bush isn't who I need lectures from.

Fuck you, Nader. You're one of the few people I can name who the world would be far better off if you had never been born.

[redstateblues]

227. Thanks for Bush and the Iraq War

Without Nader voters in FL there would not have been no Bush Presidency and no Iraq War-Bottom line. "Not a dimes worth of difference" ?

[Maedhros]

236. Those who fixate their hatred on Nader for the 2000 election results

are the shallowest of political thinkers, best ignored. They are interested only in lashing out at a designated external enemy, having been led by the nose to do so by Democratic Party apparatchiks working to deflect blame from the incredibly poor performance of their candidate.

It's so staid and boring that I have no time for refuting it anymore.

[Downtown Hound]

242. It's almost as pathetic as those that refuse to acknowledge his role in electing Bush as president

Actually, no. It's really not anywhere near as pathetic as that.

[R B Garr]

239. LOL, Ralph Nader has as much credibility as Dick Cheney

ZIP. Wrong on everything that matters.

[99Forever]

243. He's more credible than Hillary Clinton.

[R B Garr]

253. Nice try. The rest of us lived through his 2000

bullshit and see how laughable his campaign lies were.

Anyone who can buy Ralphie's lies has no credibility judging Clinton, so I'll laugh at your slice and dice little videos.

[R B Garr]

257. How lame.

[Downtown Hound]

259. NOT handed the most powerful position in the world to an overly privileged sociopath

and caused untold death, misery, and destruction. That right there gives him a 1up on Nader.

[EdwardBernays]

251. Hillarys Campaign manager

Owns a lobbying firm that represents arms manufacturers and Saudi Arabia.

That's who she choose to represent her.

[JRLeft]

261. Hillary provided Ralph with confirmation today.

[brooklynite]

267. I guess "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

[JRLeft]

268. Turns out he was right.

[Empowerer]

270. Funny how the same people who believe that anyone who has done anything they don't agree with at any

point in their lives is forever tarnished and unworthy of any consideration or respect, now cite Ralph Nader as a credible source and ally because he shares their loathing of Hillary Clinton, while shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Sure, he almost single-handedly delivered this country eight years of Bush-Cheney, but other than that, he's a really great guy . . ."

[JRLeft]

272. It wasn't the supreme Court? By the way Nader was right.

[bigwillq]

271. Yup.

Good for you, Ralph.

[olddots]

274. but. but. but

NADER lost us the 2000 election .

[JRLeft]

278. Biggest lie ever. The Supreme Court cost us the election.

5 justices selected Bush.

[DefenseLawyer]

275. Ralph needs to give back all the money he's taken from Republicans

in all his sham campaigns since 2000. Until then he can pipe down.

[Mike Nelson]

277. Nader should...

...shut up, lose the envy - and, then, he might be applauded for the early activisms. Alas, he's not interested.