So I was talking about porn with some young women ... (WARNING! This is a HoF thread!)

[redqueen]

And they were saying some of the same things I've seen posted here -- how uncomfortable they are around men, wondering if abuse porn or rape porn or rosebud porn is something the guy jacks off too, etc.

And it hit me that we see all these complaints from men who can't get dates, who have no success with women, and these guys are probably entirely clueless about just how many women have giant walls of doubt and suspicion built up. Not just because of misogynist porn (let alone the violent kind) but also the amount of women who've either known other women who were involved with abusive men or were abused themselves, the amount of casual sexism and misogyny that we all see every day, that they probably don't even notice or even participate in themselves...

Anyway I just thought it was interesting, and given the similarities between what some of them were saying and what women here have said.

Also: If you don't know what rosebud porn is, I would advise you DO NOT GOOGLE ROSEBUD PORN. Someone in the discussion did and ... I'm just glad I didn't. I'll just leave it at that.

[seabeyond]

1. (WARNING! This is a HoF thread!)... lmFao. accommodate my ass. now, i will read. nt

[redqueen]

2. I'm taking responsibility!

[xulamaude]

5. It is your duty after all!

[seabeyond]

6. ya, well, did you? i challenge that. i see no note telling eveyrone to NOT rec. hey wait....

i need to go back and rec. just cause i can. lol

[redqueen]

33. Fuck no I won't try to protect their precious eyes.

I stated that it is a HoF thread, they can fucking well avoid it if they want based on that.

I'm reminded of the cries of ENTRAPMENT! and Passing Fair's utterly hilarious post about that.

[seabeyond]

34. dont know that i saw. probably. i know she did a funny. ya, fuck it. nt

[ismnotwasm]

57. Bwahahahaha

Like HoF is worse than rosebud porn

Of of course to some it probably is, giving how attractive I've sure 'some' find those images

[Squinch]

70. Yeah, but I'm rec-ing anyway! Even though I'm not supposed to.

[1StrongBlackMan]

3. Rosebud Porn??? ...

Never heard of it.

Thanks for the advisory not to do the google; but can you give a Brother a hint?

[redqueen]

8. Yeah, I'll send you. a PM.

It's very disturbing, though, I warn you.

[1StrongBlackMan]

10. Okay ...

and I'll wait til I get home to open it.

[JustAnotherGen]

36. It's really nasty 1Strong

Once you see that and know what it means - you can never ever eveeeeeeeeeeer undo it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. please PM me or I will HAVE to google it. I can't just let that alone, rq.

curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back.

I am thinking children or else the Rosebud from the movie but, that really doesn't make sense ...

[redqueen]

19. Ok...

but remember, you asked.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. I am in wound care.

pretty good at detaching ...

[redqueen]

22. Some of the women in my radfem groups are nurses...

I've heard them start talking about certain types of uses of stomas, and quickly tune them out.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

25. oh yeah ... it takes a lot to gross me out. that is why when I think:

DUDES, are you fucking kidding me? That is GROSS!! Because TRUST Me = I KNOW GROSS.

I live with disgusting every single day.

My professional live could be described as Medical Porn Video -- on Steroids, even.

That is why when Nina Hartley started talking about wanting to give her patients a Happy Ending...

uhm, excuse me. but. WTF.

that is just stupid for so many reasons.

[redqueen]

28. Yep

exactly... gross is gross, and it isn't 'kinkshaming' to say so. It seems like there's a constant effort to push the boundaries of eroticizing injury and suffering and protecting it from any and all criticism by labeling it a 'kink'.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. exactly. -

not to mention: all the medical reasons. not to mention: what NURSE has the TIME to give a Happy Ending EVEN if she wanted to.

sheesh Louise. are you fucking kidding me.

whatever, Nina. you lost me at that point.

The men might think you are dazzling them with your brilliance but, I suspect you of baffling them with bullshit.

[xulamaude]

41. "I suspect you of baffling them with bullshit"

which is so, so easy to do. lol

[Squinch]

72. Oh, my god! It's about certain stomas?

[redqueen]

91. No, not a certain type of stoma...

at least not that I know of.

A particular kind of use of stomas.

[Squinch]

92. I looked up the urban dictionary. Ugh.

[BainsBane]

66. I'd guess it has to do with deflowering a virgin

edit: given the responses in the subthread, I must be wrong about that.

[MuseRider]

4. I was just going to google it

so thanks for the warning. I will have to stay with my suspicion then.

I have heard similar things mostly from the young women my sons date or know well who are FB friends.

[redqueen]

12. I hope more women speak up about these things.

I think the "sex pozzie" crap, while mostly well-intentioned, ended up shaming a lot of women from speaking their mind about these things, and it has led to a disastrous lack of honest, open dialogue between people. It looks like that's changing now though thank goodness.

[seabeyond]

14. dines heard it across the nations at colleges, years ago. attacked as dworkinnite. voice silenced.

it is out there. the young are tired of the adult mess.

[geek tragedy]

7. generally speaking, just about every man is going to have some exposure

to teh pr0n and will have some measure of unhelpful thoughts/images swimming around in his brain. Good luck trying to conduct a study, for instance, finding men who haven't been exposed to this stuff during their developmental years.

The ability/skill to process that stuff out and prevent it from shaping attitudes and behavior towards women is an absolute necessity today amongst men, if they're to avoid going down the path of misogyny etc.

I'm totally with women who have the discomfort you discuss.

As far as the guys who can't get dates, etc, generally they're clueless about themselves moreso than anything. Listening--not just hearing, but listening is the one thing just about all of them could work on. They're so clueless they don't realize they don't have a clue because they don't know how to find the numerous clues that get handed to them.

[redqueen]

13. Well said.

Especially liked this part:


"They're so clueless they don't realize they don't have a clue because they don't know how to find the numerous clues that get handed to them."

[nomorenomore08]

97. I don't know how old you are, but sadly I think many of your assumptions about younger folks

are probably correct. Lack of real human connection is certainly part of the problem as well - and the prescribed gender roles that still exist in some form, simply add another layer of alienation to the whole mess.

And I say this as a 29-year-old who "never got dates" and still managed not to turn into an MRA...

[geek tragedy]

98. Going through dry stretches doesn't turn people into MRAs, thankfully, otherwise

the ranks of MRAs would be swelling in the manner of orcs before a Tolkien battle scene.

[nomorenomore08]

101. Ha! That's a good one. I'll bet they'd like to think they really have that much support, though.

It's the classic "most people secretly agree with me" assumption that every bigot makes.

[seabeyond]

9. my youngest niece said no to porn. if man does porn, she does not do him. my oldest niece

tried to go with the flow. at the point of not getting her sex, and hubby encouraging her to like rape porn, (she was raped and saw nothing of value or excitement in watching rape), she has sinced dumped his ass and has a no porn rule.

and there you go.

i told my boys, be no porn dudes and you will have a huge advantage. just saying.

[geek tragedy]

15. Your boys will be grateful men some day. nt

[seabeyond]

16. works both ways and we already are, lol. but, ya. they are only beginning to see all the

advantages in being aware.

[redqueen]

17. The saddest thing about this, to me,

is how few mothers seem to be talking to their daughters about this. It seems most of these young women learned by experience how misogynist and even brutal porn is.

[seabeyond]

20. i dont know redq, just seems like that is not doing our job. i had a mother tell me.... she has to

learn the real world. really... is that what we really do as parents. throw kids out and not influence, teach and nurture allowing them to learn the "real world" in this manner. and whose real world. not mine.

[redqueen]

23. I agree, it's a complete abdication...

but one done out of fear I think, often as not.

[seabeyond]

29. nothing bothers me. all conversation, and thinking is a must, is welcome. nt

[xulamaude]

27. I think that a lot of mothers haven't a clue as to what's going on

porn-wise. What's the average age of mothers of teenage daughters? I'm sort of an 'old' mom having had mine at 34 but still the advent of the internet (and the superwide distribution of porn thereby) was a totally new thing to us. I didn't have internet until my daughter was almost 3 years old.

I wouldn't know what kind of depraved shit was going on out there unless I was an active (radical) feminist, frankly, and how many moms fit that bill?

Yeah, most girls are having to learn it the hard way.

[redqueen]

30. Clearly we need millions more radical feminist moms!

[seabeyond]

32. but. and i agree. i was 33 and 36. but, part of parenting is being informed. i like to be a step

or two or a mile ahead of the kids, to help navigate and inform. if they have no info, they are unaware, the will be blindsided. so really... being ignorant is not an option. not in our house. but then, i think you are right. too many people are fine with porn (who do not use it) and then i tell them the shit and they are no longer fine with it. aghast, can you believe.

[redqueen]

37. Exactly, they've been told for decades that porn is great! All consenty and awesome!

Women love it too now!

Only after digging do they realize that even the most successful actress wouldn't want her daughter to do it, and that she feels guilty for recruiting other women into it.

Only after being clued in to what pornographers say, and what they actually produce, do they realize they've been lied to.

[CrispyQ]

50. This.

I watched two porn flicks when I was 17. That was back in the 70s. What I've read here about current porn, it is not what it was back then. I think many, many women don't have a clue how oppressive, violent & disgusting today's porn is.

[xulamaude]

59. My family thought itself pretty hip and artsy

when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s. We had a subscription to Playboy for years and years and they went directly to the single 'bathroom reading' rack in the house, The Joy of Sex was on the bookshelf along with Our Bodies, Ourselves.

My brother had penthouse and hustler in his room - not sure where he got those - which I found completely repulsive.

I worked very closely with a porn addict in the early 90s who was horrifyingly abusive to women all the while thinking he was the super smooth ladies man...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. At some point ... would this be a good film to discuss ...

The Accused (1988)
Sarah Tobias goes to her local bar and is gang-raped by three men. The district attorney on the case is Katheryn Murphy who wants to prove that although Sarah had taken drugs that night and was acting provocatively while in the bar, this is no reason for her to be so brutally attacked and the men responsible should be brought to justice.

more at link:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094608/

From what I understand "It was so brutally hard to film for Foster that she passed out several times filming it. It was very tough and emotional for the actors who had to rape her in that scene as well. There were many times were they just had to take a break during each take."

[redqueen]

24. Definitely.

The true story behind that case was worse than what was depicted.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

26. I have no doubt ... I, for one, would be interested in the

Male actors on set and what they took away from the experience.

Here might be a good place to start:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=actors+in+the+accused+comments+on+the+rape+scene&pc=MOZI&form=MOZLBR

[JustAnotherGen]

35. Rec #5

To the front page with you!

[seabeyond]

38. you're ornery. i LUV... lol. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

39. And full of mischief

[seabeyond]

40. i have done this already, but think it appropriate for you too, and a fav.

#grinch%20gif%20360x270

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. I thought it took 10. Did it change?

[seabeyond]

43. glass flowing over, on its way, wink. lol. ya. 10.

[JustAnotherGen]

44. Look

I really hope 1strng does NOT - I may need to send him a PM on this - I repeat does NOT mar his beautiful mind by googling this. He actually LIKES women. He's been a stellar example and father for a young woman out and about in this world but . . .

I kind of hope some of the misogynists around here do. Because once you know what it is - you can like never ever UNKNOW it. Like seriously. For realz. Wooooord.


So may this get kicked up over and over and over again so their porn experience is ruined for ever!

[seabeyond]

45. i had it whispered, but...

with imagery. you are right. can never unsee.

ya.

i hear ya.

[ismnotwasm]

46. First thing I DID was google rosebud porn.

I've seen pictures like that before, but I see the gone and made it into 'kink'.

And to be fair, I checked the male Gay version of it, because if there's one thing I'm sick of, it's the ridiculous "I'm gay so how can I objectify women" red herring pro-porn argument. Porn is a corrupt industry, and because of our gender dialectic, women are objectified the day they're born and being Gay is still actually illegal in many places and yes pornography has it's part in this. It's NOT freedom. It's a reflection of what is.

Porn has the potential to be erotic, fun and exiting. Instead as I'm fond of saying, it's consumeristic corporate sex no better than shopping a Wallmart and ultimately boring as hell. Which is why images get more destructive, 'kink' is more and more popular, and our sexual imagination is stunted. A sizable portion of women still fake orgasms for instance.

And So, although I've taken care patients with objects that needed to be surgically removed from their anus, because of what I actually do-- not very often. I've taken care of surgical vaginal, urethral, rectal or bladder prolapse repair. As far as I know, these prolapse's are not sexually related, but untrained sexual activity or extreme stretching is an easy recipe for such things. I wonder where the actors go for repair? Because repair they'll need.

And yes some men masturbate to extreme porn; lovely, Isn't it?

Or To have violent, degrading images swirling through your brain when you're "making love" to your partner, because that's what corporate sex has taught you.

Suckers.

[CrispyQ]

53. Outstanding post. --nt

[nomorenomore08]

99. Exactly. It's not the "sex" part that's the problem, never has been. It's everything *but* the sex

so to speak. It's the violence and ugliness and, really, all-around soullessness of so much pornography. I can't claim not to be interested in erotic materials - I think the great majority of human beings are, on some level - but even the fairly vanilla stuff I can actually bring myself to watch isn't very "erotic."

[smirkymonkey]

105. +1000

[intaglio]

47. Pro-tip Google "Urban dictionary rosebud"

And do not lapse from this true path again.

[intaglio]

48. For what it's worth I suspect that live porn of all sorts may be dying

At some point CGI animation will take over.

In Dragon Age - Origins one of the plot lines to follow allowed various characters to have sex. I'm sure that somebody will have "improved" on that. Of course it will allow persons on limited scope to say that, "Nobody was harmed by it," completely ignoring the damage it does to personal interactions, just like the real thing.

[ismnotwasm]

49. Yes

Because the world isn't complete without tentacle penises. (yes that's a " thing&quot

[intaglio]

51. I've always thought that the best body mod for a man

would be the prehensile penis

Just a thought ...

[ismnotwasm]

54. Well, It could have its advantages I suppose

[Jackpine Radical]

61. I can't say the idea really grabs me.

[ismnotwasm]

86. ...

[Jackpine Radical]

52. I got no clue what rosebud porn is--

and I'm happy to heed your warning.

[seabeyond]

55. lol lol. i hear ya, dude. nt

[ismnotwasm]

56. Put it this way

"Rosebud" is a misnomer.

[Jackpine Radical]

58. I thought Rosebud was a sled.

I was starting to form visions of…
Nevermind.

[ismnotwasm]

60. It's better this way

[xulamaude]

62. There are a couple of 'clues' in this thread that can

help you to put it together if you want to. That's what I did.

Having done a lot of reading and investigating of porn in the past 6 years or so, I have found that no matter how bad I can imagine something to be it's always way, way worse. The unfortunate part of it is that I am no longer surprised by anything the male mind can cook up to gratify mankind's 'need' for sexual gratification.

Soul-killed a little at a time perhaps, but not surprised.

[Jackpine Radical]

63. I don't want to know very badly. Or at all. I'm not into gross.

I've spent most of my professional life dealing with psychopathology, and sewers don't interest me.

[ismnotwasm]

64. ...

[BainsBane]

76. I have my own gross interests

but they don't involve porn. I was watching an extraction of a subcranial epidermoid cyst. Disgusting but fascinating at the same time.

[Squinch]

79. This is kind of interesting. I wonder how many of us who frequent HoF are medical professionals.

It seems like a lot.

[BainsBane]

81. I'm not

I just found the video interesting in a gross way.

[Squinch]

82. I'm having a little chuckle here:

"Hey, BainsBane, it's Friday night! What are you going to do?"

"Well, I thought I'd catch that new video about the subcranial epidermoid cyst!"



I can't make fun, though. I can't get enough of the history of the bubonic plague. Go figure.

[BainsBane]

85. What's even worse

or maybe not, is that I've decided to do something like that rather than see this guy who's been jerking me around.

[Squinch]

87. Which is more fun?

This is actually a useful benchmark. If the video is more fun, you know it's time to move on.

And sometimes, you realize that the video wins, hands down!

[BainsBane]

89. Yeah, that's where it's at

I know some men think women like them better when they are disrespectful, but that certainly isn't the case with me, not anymore. In this case, I started out being really interested in this guy, but as he's been inconsiderate, I just can't bring myself to care enough to bother. It's not even that I'm mad. I'm not mad. I just lose interest.

[Squinch]

90. That's always been an accurate indicator for me. If I say I'm going to be somewhere at a given

time, or that I will do something, I follow through.

If a man doesn't return the favor, I know it isn't going to work. Even when I was younger, and fell head over heels and relaxed my rule for a while, it never worked out for very long. Inconsiderate is just too much waste of my time.

[smirkymonkey]

103. Same here. No matter how attracted I am to a man in the beginning, if he proves himself over time

to be insensitive, self-absorbed, rude, inconsiderate or sexist, I completely turn off. He could be the most gorgeous guy in the world but if his character doesn't measure up he might as well be a troll.

[seabeyond]

65. that would be the point. too many of us do not want to wallow in the sewer and those in it want all

to participate. like innately knowing the damage insisting we all participate. keep it in the sewer and i am fine. but they wont and dont. they need every one else to be a part.

[Squinch]

78. .

Now you've given me a visual of Orson Welles. This isn't good.

[BainsBane]

67. It's so bad no one can even say what it's about?

No way I'm googling that stuff on my work computer.

[ismnotwasm]

68. Well I can I'm not shy

Last edited Fri Dec 20, 2013, 06:43 PM - Edit history (1)

It's basically extreme anal fisting and penetration with abnormally large implements , with pictures of the results of such activity.

[BainsBane]

71. again, the whole point is "sex" without any satisfaction for the woman

to use and violate rather than share or please. Is it any wonder some of these men feel so confused about consensual vs. nonconsensual sex?

[ismnotwasm]

83. Exactly

I just reread " The story of O" -- which has body modification like anal stretching on it. The tragedy of O, is for a short time she is satisfied with her submission, gains a sense of security from it, but seems to wants to dominate women, interestingly enough. I think there is one mention of her pleasure in the book. In the end however-- she fails, like a bird that couldn't fly and only is left with the desire to die.

[nomorenomore08]

104. I truly don't see how any of this is arousing. I've seen tons of explicit material but I hate

anything violent or abusive - it just turns me off completely. And I'm pretty sure all of my close male friends feel the same way. So where the hell is the audience for this shit? Probably the kind of guys who indulge in gang rape a la Steubenville...

[xulamaude]

73. Or that was my other choice...

but both most undoubtedly exist.

[Jackpine Radical]

93. A

aaaaaaaaack!

[xulamaude]

69. RQ will please correct me if I'm wrong but:

this is about (penile) penetration of surgically/artificially created orifices. Think colostomy stoma or puncture wound.

There - I said it

[BainsBane]

74. That is totally different from what Ism just said

So who is right? Edit: Looking at the urban dictionary, it appears ism may be right.

[xulamaude]

75. See my above... nt

[ismnotwasm]

80. I know about such things

I'm rarely shocked.

I remember when "skull fucking" was a big joke ( had to do with removing an artificial eye)

Many of these things have existed for a long time, in underground mags and the like, but now with the internet, it gets 'normalized" as kink-- rather than the dangerous sexual practices they are. Professionals would have a hard time stopping damage. Some of the more responsible SMBD sites have explicit warning NOT to try certain things as they can cause permanent injury.


There have been colostomies found to have venereal diseases such as gonorrhea, so yes that too is very much a "thing"

[xulamaude]

84. Either, or - normalized as kink...

So, with the rosebud (anal penetration damage) porn it's the image of the damage itself that is the... 'turn on'... or the actual inflicting of the damage?

Dumb question, I guess - probably a two-fer...

[ismnotwasm]

88. I don't think that people think of the physical damage

I think because I'm a nurse - it's the first thing I see.

To the porn purchaser or watcher-- they've objectified the object-- it is no longer human (although they will deny this)and therefore damage isn't a consideration.

On the other hand, there are true misogynists who are no doubt delighted with "giving the B*****" what's coming to her"

[redqueen]

96. If you look at the text descriptions,

and the comments, its definitely misogyny.

In a thread in GD, I posted some links to discussions of rape and abuse on porn sets, and there too you see the abject hatred for these women.

It is horrifying.

[redqueen]

95. Explanation below (you've been warned)

Rosebud porn is pornography which shows anal sex in which the recipient has a prolapsed rectum.

The subject of stoma-fucking was a side topic which came up in a conversation among some nurses in a radical feminist group. Totally different conversation than the one mentioned in the OP.

Both conversations made me lose a little more faith in humanity. It's like every time I think I've heard about every sick, injurious way men like to get off... Someone shows up and tells me nope, no, here's yet another one!

[seabeyond]

100. guys like to pretend this is out there shit. it is not out there shit. this stuff is the norm

cause what use to be the norm doesnt get the men off. that have to continually escalate. like all addicts. listening to the jensen tape i only got to 45 minutes. but he had a lot to say on this shit... and i literally mean shit. ass to mouth to make women literally eat shit. not about any added stimulation, all to denigrate and humiliate. and then the suggestion this does not effect who a man is and how he sees women is total fuckin stupid bullshit.

[smirkymonkey]

106. Oh man, that is just sick!

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

[xulamaude]

108. Thank you for your clarification -

although "thank you" is sort of weird and... wrong given the subject matter...

Apparently there IS no end to the wrongness of porn. As business. As entertainment. As free speech.

But to each their own, right???

[boston bean]

77. Citizen Kane is all I can think of....

[Jackpine Radical]

94. As in #58 above.

[Warpy]

102. Well, Google is a bad idea for a lot of stuff

Urban Dictionary is a little better, giving definitions instead of examples.

And yes, a lot of things build mistrust. Ugly forms of porn are certainly one. Street harassment is another. The constant drumbeat that women are generally unacceptable unless they conform to an impossible ideal is another.

Pretty soon if it all keeps piling up we'll be on a par with Japan, where both sexes are finding little inducement to pair up.

[nomorenomore08]

107. Sad world, when people can't even get together in the most basic human ways...