Regarding the response to Dylan Farrow's letter:

[redqueen]

One thing that really jumps out at me is the way some people find it so easy to dismiss Dylan's statements, supposedly because of a lack of evidence; but then they will turn around and repeat all kinds of allegations about Mia - of making up lies and 'coaching' Dylan etc.

Apparently certain types of allegations are totally believable despite a lack of evidence.

And there seems to be a pattern here. One that plays out repeatedly, regarding allegations of certain types of crimes.

[Arugula Latte]

1. Yep. It's pretty sickening.

[boston bean]

2. Woody Allen married his wife's adopted daughter.

yuck, gross, disgusting, and tells me all I need to know. Sorry, if that offends anybody, but I'm offended by his actions.

Totally believe Dylan as well.

The guy is a disgusting pervert.

[Triana]

6. He is a disgusting pervert who should have gotten the Michael Jackson treatment

But oddly, he didn't. Is it OK when the pervert is white?

[PassingFair]

15. Point of fact: Mia Farrow and Woody Allen were never married.

She was never his "wife".

Still despicable behavior though.

[pnwmom]

28. It happened in 1992, which was part of it. People hadn't gotten used to hearing

about cases like this.But it came down to a decision of the prosecutor, who thought he had probable cause but that the girl was too fragile to get through a trial.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

32. I believe that in MJ's case, the fact that the victims were boys

Had a lot to do with it as well.


That's another pattern; more outrage and empathy for male victims.

Female victims aren't as believable.

[Triana]

39. Exactly my sentiments...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=35708

[BlancheSplanchnik]

55. yep…that was a good post.

women in the victim role, passive, pitiable, is normalized.

[redqueen]

41. re: Female victims aren't as believable.

You're exactly right and this is not a coincidence.

http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics/details/2013-11-how-we-teach-our-kids-that-women-are-liars

[BlancheSplanchnik]

49. females are also "expendable"

We die and are mourned by those who knew us.

If victimized, the same.

but also, there is a sense of inevitability when a girl or woman is harmed; you shrug your shoulders and say, "how sad". But the world hasn't stopped turning. Our sense of reality, as individual people making up the public, remains intact.

Compare that to the general sense of outrage at the shock of conventions upturned when a male is egregiously victimized, against his will. I firmly believe that had the scandal of the priesthood been mostly molestation of girls, the sense of disgust, urgency and shock shared by the public would have been very different.


And I just want to mention a cultural artifact that I think is important as an example of the normalization of violence against women---
Women being murdered, used, thrown away is a typical theme in many musical traditions. Blues, rock and Appalachian music have a long history of such themes. Maybe other genres do too.

I'm just listening to early 90's alt rock right now as I'm typing, and Led Zeppelin's "Gallows Pole" came on a few minutes ago.

In it, a man is sentenced to hang, but tries to avoid his fate with the hangman by bribes offered from his brothers. And then through the offer of sex with his sister.

There is much disagreement over the following lyrics; in my searches, they're given as follows in italics, but my ears tell me that the lyrics are actually "But now I laugh and pull so hard, see her swinging from the Gallows Pole

But now I laugh and pull so hard, she's swinging from the Gallows Pole
She's Swingin' on the gallows pole!" And this is repeated several times, being the end of the tune. I've been listening to this tune since 1972 or whatever it was when it came out, and I've always shuddered at those lyrics.

I don't think men can viscerally appreciate what it feels like to identify with the ravaged victims in song and story that are such an accepted part of our culture.


Hangman, hangman, turn your head awhile,
I think I see my sister coming, riding many mile, mile, mile.
Sister, I implore you, take him by the hand,
Take him to some shady bower, save me from the wrath of this man,
Please take him, save me from the wrath of this mad, man.

Hangman, hangman, upon your face a smile,
Tell me that I'm free to ride,
Ride for many mile, mile, mile.

Oh yes, you got a fine sister, She warmed my blood from cold,
She warmed my blood to boiling hot to keep you from the Gallows Pole,
Your brother brought me silver, Your sister warmed my soul,
But now I laugh and pull so hard, see you swinging from the Gallows Pole

But now I laugh and pull so hard, see you swinging from the Gallows Pole
Swingin' on the gallows pole!

Ah-ha-ha
Swingin'
Swingin' on the gallows pole!
See-saw marjory daw
See-saw knock at my door


But we are NOT honored. We may be tut-tutted over. We may provide a thrill, or we may even be a proxy (dieing for the sake of another, as in the song above). But honored as heroic or a loss to humanity by those who didn't know us personally, because of who we were or what we did? Rarely. Very rarely.

[redqueen]

50. Led Zeppelin - another example of being unable to enjoy the art after learning about the artists.

At least for me, anyway. I used to love their music. Now it's tainted with the knowledge of some of the things the men in the band did for fun.

And yes, its in most genres of music. People love to bash rap for misogynist lyrics as if its a new phenomenon.

[Scootaloo]

52. Well, the reason for bashing rap and not rock is pretty simple...

One only has to look at pictures of Jay-Z and Robert Plant to figure out what the difference might be.

[redqueen]

54. Same reason Charlie Sheen and Chris Brown faced very different reactions from the public nt

[whathehell]

103. Yes, your observations are correct and the injustice & inhumanity of it all

stirs a deep anger in me even as I read and write of it.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

119. yes, me too.

actually, that's why I don't hang out in HoF much...I mean, I always click when it comes up on the main page, but going directly there just gets me too upset.

[whathehell]

121. I feel the same way

when it comes to HoF.

In college, I considered going for a master's degree in Women's Studies but decided against it for the same reason.

[gaspee]

9. Oh, but they weren't "married"

That thread made me sick.

Basically, the jist of it is that they are going to stick up for Woody Allen no matter what. It's the all women are liars mentality.

No, he wasn't her legal father, but he'd been in her life since she was a small child in a father figure role. But he wasn't her "father"

I am still angry after reading that thread, hours later.

[Triana]

22. If men molest girls, it's accepted - made excuses for. If they molest boys, it's not.

I get that out of it too. When you look at how much society looks down upon men who sexually abuse boys as compared to how they often make excuses for when they abuse girls (or call the girls and women liars when they expose the abuse), there's definitely a double standard. Woody Allen is a disgusting creep. Moreso that he molested a child to whom he was a father figure. I don't care who he was married to. But I often wondered where the sheriff's office was to go search his home multiple times - I mean ransack it top to bottom, drag him through child molestation trial, and harass the shit out of him and his family for years -- because this had been known about him for years. HE got away with it. Why?

[redqueen]

26. I couldn't even read that thread.

I just couldn't.

I've seen enough commentary elsewhere to know it's just not a good idea.

[Squinch]

61. No don't. I haven't seen worse, both in content and in the

entitled tone of the people posting in it. It was like pulling up a rock and seeing the beetles scurrying around.

[historylovr]

100. Agreed.

I need a bath in the sewer after reading that thread.

[Squinch]

101. And new threads like it keep popping up.

[historylovr]

105. Thanks for the warning.

I think they'll go in the trash can. I had to put that one poster so vigorously defending Allen on ignore, because

Poor Dylan. She is a brave young lady to come forward with this, knowing the sort of reaction she would receive from just that sort.

[Squinch]

106. Yes on all counts.

[hollysmom]

56. no, they weren't married - it was a correction to some one who called Mia his wife.

we need to acknowledge facts if you want any legitimacy to an opinion, You just say, well they were sleeping together instead, maybe. Don't jump on someone for correcting a detail. That is not sticking up for Allen, they are sticking up for facts.

Look, I am a woman, but I also acknowledge I was not there and there are lots of weird things between those two, so I don't know. I have a cousin who suffers from recovered memories of her father raping her in the room she shared with her 2 sisters who claim that never happened. Now I know that is not enough to invalidate her memories, except it does make them questionable, that an some of her dates about him attacking her were for dates when he was out of the country on business for 6 months at a time, I question if her memories are more about feeling abandoned by him since my aunt was not a great mother and he was a great father and uncle. This whole recovered memories is not reliable. So does that make me a bad cousin? I think she needs a new psychologist. I know when I was dealing with problems, I had to shop around to find one who did not put words in my mouth and agree to discuss the problems I was having rather than how my parents screwed me up (if they did, I am the happiest ruined child. My friends always envied my parents for loving us) They were not perfect and not always right about things and I can accept that. They learned from their mistakes and I hope I do as well.

On topic. I can't accept Dylan's word without question because I know how people can be manipulated into having memories and I remember the video that her mother made public - she didn't file a complaint against Allen because she did not want to stress her daughter, but filming this video accusing Allen before she saw a professional sort of spoils the answer and then a very curious thing, Farrow's older (?) brother is in jail for molesting children, 32 counts, not sure what that means except she might have more intimate Knowledge and understanding of molestation.

basically, I don't know, so I can't judge, it could be either way. But what ever Dylan will pay the price. I neither defend no accuse Allen, I just don't know.

And I am a feminist.

[redqueen]

79. Wow. You really expect a woman to have dates memorized?

Fucking hell.

Guess what? People block things out. So her sisters "not remembering" isn't special or surprising at fucking all.

As for your expectation that she should have provided the dates of the attacks?

I don't even know what to fucking say to that. Sick. It makes me sick that you or ANYONE would expect that. And your random, vague shit about learning from mistakes? What the fuck? What the fucking fuck does that have to do with anything?

Fuck everything right now. Fuck the entire goddamn world.

[hollysmom]

104. She provided the dates - I never asked anything, I am just a witness to what I saw happening.

I was trying to explain 0 if you don't remember the whole false "recovered memories" you should look it up. Most of them turned out true, much like the facilitators for Autistic children that were found creating the words they say for them.

Grow up, People can disagree and not be evil. I am pretty sick of people deciding their interpretation is the only valid one and accusing me of all kinds of things for relating an example of something that happened to someone I was close to.

[redqueen]

110. Where are you getting "recovered memories" from? Dylan did not recover any memories.

THIS is the problem with all these 'but but but what if Dylan is lying?!?!?!?!?' comments.

Bending over backwards to give Woody the benefit of the doubt, and introducing all kinds of things re: Dylan's testimony that aren't relevant.

Rather obvious it is.

[hollysmom]

113. Why is it bending over backwards to just say you don't know?

where does accepting all children as not being misled or confused? No one is perfect, I don't condemn people without some sort of proof, If I met either protagonist, I would just listen, not judge.

I listen to people a lot. I also dealt with some weird stuff - when my brother was 8 I had some friends to play bridge at one point had to put my brother to bed, He was not happy and fought me. The next day he told my parents I had an orgy while they were gone. He didn't know what an orgy was but thought it would get me into trouble, Didn't work though It was other high school girls and my parents didn't believe him. That was a lie sort of but not because he didn't know what it meant. Does that mean I think Dylan lied - no. Do I think she did not know what it meant when she was 7 - yes, I think she did not know the impact. So I think she absolutely believes it now - yes. But did it happen exactly that way, that is the question.

[redqueen]

114. It is bending over backwards when you are grasping at straws, introducing entirely unrelated issues,

in the effort to frame Dylan's assertions as untrue. In order to frame her as delusional, a liar, etc.

It is. It's just a fact. And it's fucking nauseating.

[hollysmom]

117. who did that?

[bravenak]

90. Amazing.

She never claimed to have recovered memories. She accused him at the Tim and there was a big to do over it. These are not brand new claims, so the anecdotal evidence referring to your cousin do not apply at this time.

[redqueen]

93. See what I'm saying?

Why are they here?

Do they have to infect EVERYFUCKING THREAD WITH THIS SHIT?

[bravenak]

94. It's creepy as hell.

And if they don't know it they should.

[redqueen]

96. I have no tolerance for it. Tying yourself in knots trying to prove Dylan shouldn't be believed

is not the same thing as 'having a different opinion'.

I'm just going to start putting them on ignore, at least if they come in here and pull this fucking nauseating bullshit.

I wonder how many people now have pulled out the 'recovered memories' song and dance in their ongoing efforts to frame Dylan's experiences?

Do they even fucking hear themselves?

[bravenak]

97. They think they sound 'intelligent' and 'logical' by with holding judgement.

Then proceed to judge the hell out of the victim. At least I know who not to engage with. Who to ignore.

[hollysmom]

107. I amthe bad guy? you are judging me for things I did not say and I am the bad guy!!!

I am glad to know democrats can be just as bad as Freepers in judging their fellow posters. I did not say anything against Dylan I did not say she was never abused, just that memories are not sacred. I don't believe we should be judging anyone in this case just on a say so. Things happen. Please put me on ignore, but to paint me as a bad person and terribly wrong is just your opinion and not a very nice one either. I cannot believe the intolerance at this site. the I am right and everyone else is a mass murderer. Are you democrats or tea party people - string 'em up high.

An I disagree with you is really a better reply. And I am supposed to respect your judgement after this?

[BainsBane]

108. You have decided some event entirely unrelated to Dylan Farrow

is somehow relevant to her testimony of her abuse at Woody Allen's hands. Then you proceed to question the judgment of others, while calling them Freepers?

You know what I know? Tens of thousands of children are being abused in this country right now and no one stops it. Their abusers don't see jail time, and few ever will. You will say that doesn't prove Allen is guilty. True, it does not, but your story about some "friend "you have decided is untrustworthy doesn't prove anything other than your determination to use a very rare and unrelated event to defend Allen.

[hollysmom]

111. the only other place I have seen people be so insulting is in Freeperville.

well occasionally here, but not so many people jump on the insult bus.

my example was about people believing what they say even if it is not exactly accurate. I believe in Rashomon. An event happens and we all remember it in different ways. We give weight to different things.

If you don't think it is pertinent fine - but don't give me 10 lines of vomit and call me names and have other people agree. that is freeperville. That is not grown up.

On another thread someone just called another a pedophile because they said they can't just take the word of a child with out a little more information. Isn't that a little over the line?

[bravenak]

109. You did not have to respond.

I don't know why you think I was taking about you in particular. I have been reading responses of people accusing the child of lying, her mother of being vicious, brainwashing. That's what I'm taking about.
If you withhold judgement of the man, but rain judgements in the woman and child then I was talking about you.
I don't put people on ignore. You can ignore me just fine if you want to.
You may reply to things in the manner that pleases you, and I will do the same.
When you say things happen, by that I'm thinking you mean children get molested. I don't know why you are personalizing this as if I have somehow victimized you by saying,

97. They think they sound 'intelligent' and 'logical' by with holding judgement.

Then proceed to judge the hell out of the victim. At least I know who not to engage with. Who to ignore.

They withhold judging him, but judge her. Get it. They judge the child, not the man.

Sigh.....

[Dr Hobbitstein]

20. No he did not...

Woody and Mia were NEVER married and NEVER lived together. And, according to both Soon-Li and Mia, was NEVER involved in the life of Soon-Li until she was 19 years old... He was NOT a father figure to her at any time.

Edit to clarify: Not saying dating then marrying the daughter of your ex-girlfriend isn't creepy in it's own right, but there's no reason to embellish the story.

[pnwmom]

30. They maintained two residences, but they spent a lot of time together.

He stayed in the guest house on her property.

And he was a father figure to Soon-Yi's siblings, however he chooses to portray his relationship with Soon-Yi. And he was literally a father to Ronan, Moses, and Dylan. Ronan has written about how he felt learning that his father was involved with his sister.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

38. Like I said...

I'm not defending him, but even Mia and Soon-Yi have stated that he was NOT a father figure to her, but her adopted father was. It's still creepy, but there's no need to embellish is all.

I've read what Ronan has written. I've also read what Moses (who is very close with Allen and Soon-Yi, but estranged from Mia) has written. There's POSSIBLY more than meets the eye to all of this (I read both articles being circulated on DU). If Allen did those things, then he needs to be punished for them. If he did not, then so be it. Seeing as Allen is quiet on the subject (and has been since the early 90s), it makes him look guiltier by not addressing the situation.

Also of note is that Mia defended Roman Polanski during his trial, and apparently has a brother who was twice convicted for molestation.

Once again: Woody Allen is still creepy, and I am not defending him, just the facts surrounding the case. The whole Allen/Farrow clan are kind of creepy.

[pnwmom]

40. It's too late to prosecute him, I believe. So all that's left is individual people making up

their minds as to whom they believe.

And I believe the young woman.

[jeff47]

66. For child molestation. He could be charged with other crimes.

Child molestation is a sexual assault, after all. Felony Sexual Assault should still apply.

[cinnabonbon]

3. It's because it's so much easier to give

the benefit of the doubt to the person who did the crime, as opposed to the victim. Why, if they gave the victim the benefit of the doubt, can you imagine what would happen?

I mean if they think about it logically, what is the chance she is lying? How many percent of rape victims make false allegations? Since the percentage is so low, wouldn't it make sense to imagine that maybe, just maybe, it's a high chance she was one of the people telling the truth?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. I keep asking myself Why would one put theirself through all this public

-humiliation- if there were any doubt in their mind at all about what happened.

If there was any chance that it was a -false memory- at all.

Any doubt whatsoever in my mind (if I were Dylan) I would NOT issue a public statement.

I would continue in therapy and go on with my life as a private citizen.

This seems to give some credence for her -story- to me.

Definitely some dysfunction going on in that -family-

Just goes to show that money can not buy happiness or peace of mind.

[gaspee]

12. She probably can't

Have him prosecuted now, but a civil suit would be nice. Not for money, but for her chance to tell her story and to maybe see a little justice done.

But if the culture was ready to rip her apart as a 7 year old, what would it do to her as an adult woman. I can understand not wanting to be put through the meat grinder.

[jeff47]

65. False memories are not "doubtful" memories.

First, I have no idea what actually happened in this particular case and I'm not talking about this specific case.

But just because a memory is false does not mean the person having the memory has doubt.

We've all come across something in our lives where we were absolutely sure events unfolded in a different order, or at a different place. Sure, the situations were far less critical ("Wait, I thought we first met at the bowling alley&quot , but that same certainty can apply to far more critical events.

There's a famous study where groups of people was shown a video of a car driving around. Then the car crashed. People were asked a bunch of questions about the events in the video, and how sure they were about their answers. One of the questions was, "What color was the barn?". The majority answered red, and that they were sure of their answer.

There was no barn in the video.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

68. dude. when I use -()- around a word or group of words that should give you some

indication as to the fact that the terminology is some what questionable, to say the least.

kind of like using the "quotes" or the *asterisk* symbols.

ya dig?

and honestly, if that is all you came away with from my statement then we are done here.

very, very done.

I mean stick a fucking fork in me cause I am -so- done with the *conversation*.

[jeff47]

69. It's not a terminology issue.

You're using certainty of memory as proof that an event happened. Or at least certainty makes you think it is more likely to have happened. That isn't a good measure.

Does that mean Allen is innocent? No, he still could have done it. The only point I was making is that certainty of a memory is not a good measure of accuracy of that memory.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

71. No shit, Sherlock. N/t

[jeff47]

72. So you made a post...to say something you don't believe. (nt)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

73. No. But, you keep telling yourself that if it makes you

Feel good.

[jeff47]

74. Your point was certainty meant you believed her.

You're now claiming that isn't true. And you're angry about it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

98. U r funny. Bye now.

[redqueen]

77. You're really comparing an extraneous, meaningless detail

to whether or not one was molested?

Sure, you could compare the red barn experiment to whether or not there really was a white box on the floor of the attic, if Dylan had said there was a white box on the floor of the attic where she described the molestation as having taken place. You can NOT compare that to uncertainty over whether or not she was molested at all.

Or to put it another way - did any of the respondents say there was no car crash?

And to be completely open with my feelings about your little example: For fucking fuck's sake I seriously cannot believe this bullshit.

[jeff47]

89. Nope.

Those examples were used because they're reasonable accessible to everyone.

If you'd like, there's other stories where DNA testing proves a woman remembered the wrong person as her rapist. In all those cases, people hammered home "that is the guy" until she started remembering it that way.

There's other cases where people remember being molested as a child, which run into the problem of the molester being in another state during the attacks.

Sure, you could compare the red barn experiment to whether or not Dylan said there was a white box on the floor of the attic where she was molested. NOT to whether or not she was molested.

McMartin preschool students remembered being sexually abused. Problem is none of it happened. The fact that the accusations were the result of coaching did not come to light until the kids got fairly creative - remembering being force-fed fetuses set off alarm bells.

Was Dylan abused? I don't know. My caution comes from Mia Farrow's actions - She supports Polanski. That makes no sense to me if her own daughter was abused. OTOH, there have been cases where angry "spouses" have coached the children to remember abuse that did not happen, and that would fit with supporting Polanski. Couple that with the nanny that claims Mia tried to get her to lie about the case back when it was first investigated, and the story gets murky. Especially because that nanny's claims are coming through Allen.

But that caution does not mean I think Allen is a saint. It means I am not jumping on the "let's get Allen" bandwagon until more comes out. Hopefully there will be an investigation to clear up some of that murk.

[redqueen]

92. Here comes McMartin again.

Fucking hell I really should just stop reading this thread.

Cases where people are attacked by strangers and identify the wrong suspect ARE ALSO NOT ANALOGOUS.

And yes, you also expect children to remember the exact dates they were raped.

Amazing.

Fucking amazing.

I don't give a shit what Mia Farrow does. This isn't about Mia fucking Farrow.

But hey, the nanny said blah blah blah so let's treat Dylan's claims like "murk".

Fuck this, I'm done.

[jeff47]

95. Yeah, it sucks when someone has a different opinion.

And yes, you also expect children to remember the exact dates they were raped.

We're talking about off by years, not exact date. Including remembering other details that are false - such as living in the previous or next house.

I don't give a shit what Mia Farrow does. This isn't about Mia fucking Farrow.

"Angry spouse coaches child to claim abuse" happens often enough that social workers and police have procedures in place to try and separate those accusations from real accusations. As a result, Mia Farrow's actions become relevant - she was enraged about Soon Yi. Also, the accusations that she pressured a nanny to lie can't be ignored - that isn't to say they're true, just that they need to be investigated.

Here comes McMartin again.

Well, it's the poster child for false memories of sexual abuse. It's going to come up in any situation where someone claims recovered memories of sexual abuse.

But it's also illustrative of the difference of mis-remembering and lying. Some of the McMartin kids remember being abused so vividly that they have suffered the psychological scars of real abuse.

Dylan needs support and help, no matter what. Whether or not Allen needs to be locked up needs to be determined by an investigation to cut through the murk.

[LanternWaste]

99. It also sucks that more than 94% of abuse allegations turn out to be true.

It also sucks that more than 94% of abuse allegations turn out to be true, regardless of the smokescreens people throw up...

[shenmue]

5. In this country, people are innocent until proven guilty

If it's true, they should throw the book at him. Put him under the jail. But, everybody gets a day in court first.

[boston bean]

7. Many guilty people are never found guilty of a damned thing.

She has a right to tell her truth, and not be attacked over it.

Anyone hear "rape culture".... That's about all I can think of when I read some of these responses.

She's a liar, can't be believed for some reason or another.... RAPE CULTURE!

[shenmue]

8. I am not attacking her.

Nor am I saying that she should be attacked. I do encourage victims to come forward. I just also believe in the principles of our courts.

As I said, if Allen is found guilty, throw the book at him.

[boston bean]

11. Hard to do when people don't frickin believe women who have been molested, raped, assaulted.

Then it's real, easy peasy, to say he's not guilty because a court of law didn't try him or convict him.

And the wheels go round and round.

[gaspee]

13. Since most rapists

never get convicted, no wonder some people think it's not a cultural problem and or not actually happening. Well in the real world, the guilty walk free every day.

I believe her. Period.

[boston bean]

14. True that!

it's appalling that these facts are not taken into consideration.

[shenmue]

16. So let's just throw people in jail without a trial

Did I say I don't believe her? No.

[gaspee]

17. Well how about we start

By not calling women liars and crazy when they say this kind of shit happened to them as children.

[boston bean]

18. Who said to throw him in jail without a trial?

Certainly not I.

But it's pretty hard to bring someone to trial when people don't believe the victim.

[JustAnotherGen]

34. No

But I won't give him one thin red cent of my money. He's not the only sick twist in Hollywood - Kirk Douglas is a pig from hell too - won't watch his old movies and wouldn't buy one on DVD.

[AndreaCG]

53. My neighbor made a pass at me

When I was twelve. Asked me if I was still a virgin. Because I had recently been molested and threatened with rape on the subway, I knew what might come next and ran out of the apartment. My mother did not believe me for years. It took him decades to apologize. It really traumatized me and affected my dating habits for many years. And my story is minor compared to many women.

[pnwmom]

33. It's too late to prosecute him. This often happens in child sexual abuse crimes.

By the time the child has managed to deal with what happened to her, it's too late to bring charges.

Plus, it is a very difficult crime to prove, since it tends to occur without any witnesses.

So, yes, legally he's innocent. That doesn't mean we don't get to use our personal judgment in deciding how to feel about him. I believe the daughter, so I'd be happy if I never saw his face or heard his whiny voice again.

[truedelphi]

10. Thank you for stating that. n/t

[cinnabonbon]

19. None of us are jury or judge, though

We are not the ones condemning him. I bet he's not even going to trial.

What we're doing is supporting a victim, because she deserves to be believed to be innocent until the court day, too.

[BainsBane]

25. He can't be prosecuted

because of the statue of limitations. The girl is 30 now. All that can be done is for him to be shamed and ostracized.

[Squinch]

21. The "tone" of some of those posts is kind of amazing too.

They often boil down to: "You WILL not say that what she says is true, I FORBID it!"

It all comes slithering out.

As I said many times in that thread: if you want to know why so many people don't report sexual assaults, just read the dismissals and insults, and note the viciousness of the comments about the person reporting the assault, and about her mother. in that thread.

[BainsBane]

24. fuck, I haven't read that shit

I don't think I want to. I have noticed that some will stand behind virtually any sexual predator, unless he's a priest.

[Squinch]

59. No, don't wade in there. It isn't worth it. And that is a good point:

if we were talking about a priest, many of the same people would be outraged if the victim were assumed to be lying.

[JustAnotherGen]

31. +1 N/T

[BlancheSplanchnik]

35. so true. default assumption=women lie.

There are despicable people in that thread.

Woody Allen and people who assume women lie should be shamed and shunned.

[Squinch]

60. The desperation in the need to defend him was so overblown.

It spoke volumes.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

63. yes, i absolutely noticed that

Desperate to defend him.

Thanks for putting words to that.

[cinnabonbon]

83. Yeah, it's pretty disgusting to watch. nt

[BainsBane]

23. I read a really awful defense in the Daily Beast

by some guy who made a PBS show about Woody Allen. He spent most of the piece of everything but Dylan's allegations. It was repulsive.

I haven't been able to watch a Wood Allen movie since those allegations and his marriage to Soon Yi, which was itself thoroughly repulsive. It wasn't a deliberate boycott. I just have a visceral reaction so even when an old movie I used to love comes on TV, I cannot bring myself to watch it. The letter from Dylan proved my reaction was right. That poor girl. It's horrible that he still enjoys the standing he does in Hollywood, so much so that he got that lifetime award from the Golden Globes. He is no better than a pedophile priest.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

37. you could see a ravaged soul in the picture of her.

That is not a look you can fake. It is etched too deeply, through many many many years.

[CBGLuthier]

27. Some of us remember when the whole thing happened

We formed our opinions long before this was brought out again. I thought then and I think now that Mia Farrow is a disturbed woman who crossed a line in her hatred of Allen. I will say no more about this.

[pnwmom]

36. Maybe you should have waited to form your final judgment till you heard from the grown up girl.

That's what I decided, years ago. She was seven when this happened, and this isn't a case of recovered memories. This is something she reported then and is confirming now.

And she seems very credible to me.

[perdita9]

46. Did Mia Farrow enter into a sexual relationship with her adopted son?

No? Then that makes her more moral than Woody Allen.

[msanthrope]

47. I agree....and it's interesting that Mia's son, who is a therapist, backs Allen. nt

[Scootaloo]

51. I have no idea what happened... but i think RQ is referring to the responses here on DU

There has been spme really nasty stuff directed at Mia and Dylan, as well as any poster willing ot give them the benefit of hte doubt. There's the definite fel that because people are fans of his movies, that these women MUST be pathological scheming liars. Becuase of course, women are ALWAYS making up stories like this, I suppose...

[Squinch]

102. And just as interesting that the other ELEVEN living children back Dylan.

[BainsBane]

57. What does that have to do with Dylan's truthfulness?

I'm amazed that it no longer is enough to shame victims, but now shaming passes to the victim from her mother. Is that a result of genetics or osmosis?

I never knew what the deal was with those abuse allegations until I read Dylan's letter. I did, however, know that Allen married his girlfriend's teenager daughter, which is enough to tell me he is a pond scum. That someone like that would molest a child is hardly incredible.

[JustAnotherGen]

29. Thank you for posting this

I got really uncomfortable reading a thread today - and I couldn't put my finger on precisely why.

My husband threw out our Midnight In Paris DVD today. I wasn't aware of the Dylan sitchy at all until yesterday. The older daughter - yes. But a seven year old child .

And the more I thought about it - the angrier it made me that he "touched" my husbands "God" (Picasso). Picasso was a mysoginst for sure - but a sick twist?

That's sick. And the fact that the "reel" plays in that woman's head and caused her to turn on herself for so many years. . . It's unforgivable.

This isn't "uncovered false memories". She's lived with the horror of this since she was seven.

Case closed. The only artist he better make a movie about now is Walter Sickert - the sick twists deserve each other.

[redqueen]

42. Playing tapes... yes... that's something a lot of people live with.

It's not a choice, it's not 'wallowing in victimhood' as some callous people on this site have described it.

It is simply life.

This person had a lot of good things to say about these discussions, I think.

Some notes on Dylan Farrow, Woody Allen, and separating artists and their art

...

So what would you do then?

At the very least, I’d keep my mouth shut about it. People who are sharing their stories about being molested are already taking a huge step by saying anything about it in public—that the internets are full of assholes who get off on picking at other people’s scabs is a surprise to no one. There’s really no upside to talking about this when you’ve been a victim, other than to maybe help other people who have been victimized feel a little less alone. If you attack them, even on the level of “you need to think more deeply about this subject” (and fuck you for that condescension, by the way), then the message you send is two-fold. You tell the person you responded to that their experience doesn’t really matter, and you tell anyone else watching (because this is the internet, after all) that if they come forward, they’ll get the same treatment. You’re taking a shitty situation and piling on pain.

...

I was molested and I don’t have any problem with Allen’s/Polanski’s movies.

In all sincerity, I mean this: good for you. It’s always a good thing when you’re not reminded of being molested. Like I said above, neither of these filmmakers are triggers for me either. But, and this is important, my experience is not universal, and neither is yours. Just because you love some film doesn’t mean that it won’t trigger another person. You’d no doubt laugh at some of my triggers, which I will never mention online because, hello, internet assholes, but they can still shake me for hours if not days. These are things that would be background noise to most people, but to me, they’re linked to painful memories. So if someone says “this is a thing for me,” don’t react as though they’re ridiculous. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

Woody Allen was never convicted of anything

True. But most molesters aren’t. Mine wasn’t. Mine was never even accused. I didn’t tell anyone about mine until 14 years later, even though we’d lived more than 800 miles from the molester for 11 of those years and I hadn’t seen her for more than a decade. If that’s the standard you’re going to demand before you’ll take personal action, again, that’s up to you. Just don’t expect it of everyone else.

If there’s been a common theme to these answers, it’s this: it’s not about you. If people are sharing their stories, their pain about being molested, at least give them space if you can’t give them sympathy.

http://newindesmoines.tumblr.com/post/75338765875/some-notes-on-dylan-farrow-woody-allen-and-separating

[Tuesday Afternoon]

62. ^^^^ excellent Cut and Paste ^^^^ MUST READ ^^^^ thank you for posting it.

[cinnabonbon]

85. Oh wow, thank you for the link!

There’s really no upside to talking about this when you’ve been a victim, other than to maybe help other people who have been victimized feel a little less alone.

That was a good read.

[redqueen]

87. tumblr is an awesome website

So many people on it, of every type. Tons of antifeminist MRA shitlords - but also tons of feminists and feminist allies.

[cinnabonbon]

91. Oh, I know.

I've been so fortunate to find so many fantastic, intersectionally-minded feminist thinkers there. There are so many writers who can spell ideas out powerfully. I just love going there, because it's like diving into a treasure trove.

As long as you stay out of the MRA and anti!fem cesspool, that is. Some things are better left to its own, where they can fester by themselves. Thankfully most of them don't try to delve too deeply into the feminist part of tumblr.

[MarianJack]

43. I used to love Woody Allen's movies, but...

...I have no time, regard or respect for a child molester, except to see him strnug up by the balls!

PEACE!

[VA_Jill]

44. It's weird

I never liked Woody Allen. Couldn't put my finger on why, but I always found him a little creepy. When he married Soon-Yi, that made him creepier. Now this. Guess I was right to start with.

[cinnabonbon]

88. Me too.

Our creep meters must be in excellent condition.

[perdita9]

45. Soon Yi Previn is all the proof I need...

...to know Woody Allen is a pervert.

I'm on Dylan's side. Mia has a record of being a stellar mom and she did her best to protect her child in a horrible situation.

[Inspired]

48. +1

[Arugula Latte]

70. There is also his sickening "affair" with a 17-year-old high school student

upon which "Manhattan" was based.

[bravenak]

86. Yep.

Father figure marries daughter figure. Nothing strange there.

[TDale313]

58. It has been painful and disturbing to see

But sadly, not surprising. She's a brave young woman.

[BainsBane]

67. Rape culture doesn't arise by accident

It is carefully constructed one case at a time. No allegation or charge of sexual assault goes without many insisting the accused is innocent and the victim a liar. A single case of false accusation is invoked to excuse each and every rapist or child molester. In the case of rape, the woman who accused the Duke Lacrosse player is the trope by which every other rapist is defended. In the case of childhood sexual abuse, the McMartin case serves that role. Someone actually referred to the McMartin case, an entirely unrelated event, as a "fact" in the case of Woody Allen and Mia Farrow. He insisted not paying attention to that was "ignoring the facts" while simultaneously completely ignoring Dylan's statement in the Times. They will talk about the investigation when Dylan was seven and completely ignore the fact she gave a statement this week. So through this case, like in every other, we see rape culture in action. We see perpetrators defended and victims ignored , denounced as liars, and shamed. This is precisely how rapists are able to operate with virtual impunity in this country. In using these tried and true methods to defend sexual assailants, they (sometimes the same people in every single case) actively engage in a concerted effort to maintain rape culture, even while they deny it doesn't exist. I no longer believe it is coincidental.

[gaspee]

75. One thing that jumps out at me

Is how vehement and personally invested some of the people posting in defense of Woody Allen are. It's, I don't know, like they an empathize with him or something. He was caught with his face in the lap of a 7 year old in a position that looks compromising. The 7 year old, now grow up says it's a thing he did more than once. He made her suck his fingers - in front of witnesses.

If someone can empathize with someone and be upset other people think he is a creep - baring other accusation - I think that person has issues.

[redqueen]

78. Yes, that jumps out at me, too. nt

[bravenak]

76. Is it wrong that I find myself afraid of people who are attacking a little girl who was molested?

If somebody thinks that little kids lie about being molested, I really don't want them around kids. Especially mine.

[redqueen]

80. No, it isn't wrong. It's natural to be wary of people who seem to have more concern for protecting

alleged rapists than for protecting helpless children.

Very fucking natural.

[bravenak]

81. Thank you.

It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach. I just hope they don't have kids.

[redqueen]

82. Same here. I'm going to have to bail on this thread, too, I think.

Fuck this.

[bravenak]

84. I can see why.

The 'defenders' of the 'innocent' are out in full force. Funny how the child isn't innocent until proven guilty, but the grown ass daughter figure marrying MAN is innocent until proven guilty. Blows my mind.

[Gothmog]

112. I have read the letter and some of the responses

I believe Dylan Farrow's letter. I am the father of two daughters and I was sick to my stomach when I read that letter. I tend to take the responses with a grain of salt but that could be due to the fact that I am lawyer.

If Woody Allen thinks that the story is truly false, he can sue for defamation and be subject to discovery and being put under oath. I have a feeling that there will be no defamation lawsuit

[redqueen]

115. And I'm sure Dylan knows she can be taken to court for defamation.

So in addition to providing an opening for all these people attacking her, she's also risking legal liability.

[Gothmog]

116. That fact played a small role in my assessment

I agree with you. I would not make this statement if I was afraid of making this statement under oath.

[ismnotwasm]

118. I was just saying today

"Oh look-- he waited 20 years not to be a pervert any more. Ick. Reminds me of Mary Kay Letourneau in a way.

[redqueen]

120. It's so gross seeing DUers defending the idea of middle-aged people dating teenagers.

WTF