Victim advocates applaud Craigslist rape verdict

[ismnotwasm]

The face of a serial rapist--look like a neighbor? A friend? Most men ARE not rapists, but are certainly complicit in Rape Culture.

"We have a very long history of effectively saying, 'If she's in prostitution, then what happens to her does not matter,'" said Kaethe Morris Hoffer, executive director of the Chicago Alliance Against Sexual Exploitation. "This conviction stands firmly against that proposition, and we applaud it."

The research shows that men who pay for sex often believe that they buy the right to do anything they want, Morris Hoffer said. Friday's verdict conveys that no one has that right, she said. She praised prosecutors, noting that having the state stand up for the woman sends a "profound and important message to the community at large."

"The other message that we would hope it sends loud and clear is that prosecutors can achieve convictions, even when the victim of the sexual assault is a woman who has been prostituted," Morris Hoffer said.

Women in prostitution have long faced a stigma when it comes to sexual assault, said Jody Raphael, a visiting law professor at DePaul University who has written about violence against women. Her latest book, "Rape is Rape," was published last year.

"Women in prostitution, because of what they do, are rarely believed," Raphael said. "They have told me they don't go to police with these kinds of complaints because they feel they will be abused and … are afraid to come forward and to make a complaint."

http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79482703/

[seabeyond]

1. men who pay for sex often believe that they buy the right to do anything they want,

well... isnt that a duh. a given? no shit.

good to see this prosecuted. but if our unconscious teens being raped are at fault, i am not feeling all warm and fuzzy with one conviction of rape of a prostitute. i guess every once in a while they get it right.

[Sheldon Cooper]

2. Ooooh better watch now - you've got the mens all stirred up:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024584676

[seabeyond]

3. lol. i hadnt read that part of her post. just the article. was clueless what manny was talking

about.

it is interesting that manny wakes up to open hof to see what we have to say. i would have never guessed he was such a fan of our group. seeing how this OP was just posted. and he just woke up. lol

[Sheldon Cooper]

4. Just one of the many HOF stalkers.

We're very popular.

[boston bean]

6. EarlG locked it. Thank goodness.

wait for the backlash for those who think the radical mean feminists of DU need to be taught a lesson.. some how, some way..

[Whisp]

25. Does that count as a post violation against Manny?

To count towards a time out? I know if it was juried and if Hides won it would be, but what if admin locks a thread on a poster?

Anyone know?
Can't tell with this case because he has less than 5 hides...

[seabeyond]

26. no. it does not effect anything. nt

[Whisp]

27. hmm, that's a bit strange, no?

I mean if the police have to come to shut it down because it's so bad, you would think there would have to be some sort of punishment. I mean some Hides juries decide on are ridiculous compared.

hmmm.
It seems safer to do a Manny than to reply to a Manny in the same tone.

[seabeyond]

28. i think mostly the SOP is not used to diss or flamebait, but mostly for putting the wrong post

in the wrong forum. i can see why administration would not want to cause a penalty for a person simply putting a post in the wrong place.

unfortunately, people are also using GD to simply flame and call out and insult.

[seabeyond]

7. it is funny. i would have never thought. i am so NAIVE about some things cause

it is not my world. but visualizing ole manny checking out our group, first thing in the morning has me giggling before i have had enough of MY coffee, yet. lol. not even to the taking point. barely to the typing point.

honestly, i find that picture funny.

turn puter on, run to hof to see if there is anything to start an Op on.

[UtahLib]

12. One in particular

who seems to be the self appointed HOF hall monitor, constantly in search of bookmarking opportunities to add to his arsenal for later use.

[Sheldon Cooper]

13. Heh.

That's not creepy!

[ismnotwasm]

35. LOL

[A-Schwarzenegger]

48. I always saw him as the Annoying Librarian.

[freshwest]

22. Interesting to see more than one target. It's happy hour already:

[seabeyond]

23. ah ha. cant we at least wait until 4'ish. lol. for breakfast? nah. lol. thanks

for the video. that was cute and fun. i hadnt seen it.

[freshwest]

24. Seagami posted it last night. It made my evening! nt

[ismnotwasm]

42. Nice!

[KitSileya]

5. See, it doesn't help with a qualifier - 'most'

How many times have people taken umbrage because someone says 'men should' or 'this is useful to learn for men'? It's not *all* men, we're told, we're being offensive, we should be more careful with how we say things. Now ism says 'most men', and they're just as umbraged. Isn't that hypocrisy?

Edited to add - the thread was locked as off-topic by EarlG, because it was in GD...

[seabeyond]

8. redq is very good at explaining this. i think we need an Op about this again. i had an Op in GD

a years or so ago about this that explained it well. how men, how even women are complicit in rape culture and how it benefits men, conscious or not. it was well received by du as a whole, though the same people could not fathom the nuance of the issue.

but, i would like to go over this again. i am more fuzzy than articulate though. maybe someone else can start a conversation.

[UtahLib]

11. Oh, and how to claim innocence

when posting a false headline.

[ismnotwasm]

30. I've never ever posted there

I have it in the trash. I'm Glad to hear it's locked, but I'm the last one that pays attention. Kind of a waste of time for them

[Sheldon Cooper]

37. It was in GD.

I have the boy's club trashed, too.

[MadrasT]

61. The only poster on DU I have on ignore...

...because I never have any idea what he is going on about.

[mercuryblues]

67. doncha just

love it when men decide to stir shit up with their penis instead of a spoon.

[demwing]

9. "Most men ARE not rapists, but are certainly complicit in Rape Culture. "

well thanks for taking a serious topic and injecting an embarrassing level of ridiculousness. Just what DU needed...

[Threedifferentones]

14. Sorry my bad. Editing these posts away, with some explanation in the other one.

Last edited Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:24 AM - Edit history (2)

[seabeyond]

15. or you could say... what are you talking about? because yuor imterpretation is wrong. not an

opinion, but blatantly wrong. so, not understanding what you are talking about, maybe educating yourself will cause less pain than thinking it is something you describe, that it is not.

[ismnotwasm]

32. Well that's a huge fail

What does a penis have to do with it?

[amuse bouche]

16. "injecting an embarrassing level of ridiculousness"

That would be my assessment of your post

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. Distortion is a common tatctic

used to disrupt.

[ismnotwasm]

33. Adorable graphic

What does rape culture mean to you? Or better, do you believe it exists at all?

[demwing]

36. Thanks for that question

To me, rape culture is defined as a group mentality that trivializes rape, and therefore perpetuates rape.

I'm not convinced that the entire US culture is a rape culture, though some sub-cultures (prisons, the GOP, gangster rap) should be, and often are identified as rape cultures.

I really believe that your comment harmed your argument. Was it meant in earnest, or were you just being glib?

If you really believe what you wrote, I guess I don't have much else to say. Enjoy your stay on planet Earth.

But if you were just being glib, then ask yourself if you think such comments are going to help reduce a culture of rape, or whether you've risked alienating the very people that could most help stimulate real change.

[ismnotwasm]

39. It was in connection to the article

Prostitution is commonly available for men, as are strippers, sex workers of all varieties, but women, not so much (this takes a longer explanation than I have time for, but suffice it to say, it goes far beyond supply and demand as has been suggested) there are magazines, pornography, ads (often enough aimed at women) especially alcohol ads, (I'm waiting to go to a show so I'll make this short). All these things contribute to male sexual entitlement, which in turn contributes to rape culture.

And rape culture is a part of a societal norm, as was pointed out elsewhere, women can participate in it as well.

I like your standard definition, but it's my belief rape culture us far more insidious, and very damaging to society as a whole. And IMO to understand it one has to dig a little deeper.

[Threedifferentones]

43. Sorry I didn't intend to disrupt...so I'm editing these posts away.

Last edited Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:22 AM - Edit history (1)

It is clear to me that saying "men do this" or "women do that" necessarily carries an implication that the other sex/gender does not.

It also seems reasonable to me to interpret "complicit with rape culture" with basically supporting rape, or at least being okay with it. As I said if a DUer posted that anyone with a firearm is complicit in this awful "gun culture" of ours, people would reasonably conclude that poster believes gun owners are comfortable with murder.

And in that sense the OP can be critiqued for focusing a sort of blame on men as a group. The vast majority of rapists are men, but they are a small minority of us, and the PEOPLE who hold on to antiquated, patriarchal values like sexual purity and "boys will be boys" cannot be distinguished by any physical trait such as sex or race.

But, it is obvious to me this thread could have gotten along just fine without that point, and that I made that point in a manner that was rude and unnecessarily aggressive. My bad.

[ismnotwasm]

44. Look I don't know you

My problem is often how careful I have to word uncomfortable truths. Clearly, I wasn't careful enough here. But I don't feel bad

As is clear in your rather twisted answer, I could suggest books, you wouldn't read them, I could point you to Ted talks, you wouldn't listen. I could teach a historical class about the history of women, men and children and rape culture, and you wouldn't go. I could post multiple articles, you'd dismiss them.


So laugh, cry, be indignant, be convinced the entire thing is full if shit-- or at least my post is-- never challenge how you think, only how others think. It's a common human reaction, and I'm used to it.

[Threedifferentones]

45. Aight well I know I am a jerk.

My thought processes, my wording, they can generally be described as acerbic and aggressive. I'm your classic jerk of a critic; I will go on rants about what I think is WRONG, but only because I am aware, as you mentioned, just how difficult it is to pin down what I think is RIGHT. So, I think you nailed me there.

I don't want anyone to be abused, and I think I do know much of what you mean by "rape culture." In my life I certainly have heard apparently innocent men joke and make light of rape and spousal abuse. Sure I've told almost all of them in clear and vulgar language that they are more monstrous than human, but that hasn't changed any of them.

I know that anyone with eyes should be able to see that many men still think of women primarily, or even exclusively, as a sexual resource. As the story in your OP makes clear, those women who are seen as "madonnas" will be protected by our legal system, while those who are "whores" will be blamed for being victimized. Jesus I could go on and on, the world really is fucked...

Still, I consider these issues in a broader context of freedom and oppression, if that makes any sense.

What I mean is the men who rape, or who cover up for rape, are much more likely to be authoritarian and conservative. They tend to also be racist, homophobic, and they seek out power and authority so that they may use and abuse the people they can control. I just do not see how "rape culture" is very distinct from the ways in which our patriarchal and capitalist society values, at every level, power above all else, and encourages those who have it to see those who do not as inferior and expendable.

In this country and most others people will blame a sex worker for being raped, they will blame a homeless vet for his PTSD, and they will blame an unemployed worker on food stamps for being laid off. The parallel seems obvious to me, and I do not understand why the members of HOF seem to insist upon seeing sexism in a vacuum, instead of trying to connect it to all the other ways our society is callous and cruel.

It could be argued that by living in America you and I are complicit in an utterly vile culture of violence and abuse. Similarly, if we must use the term rape culture, I think it would be best to point out that most PEOPLE are complicit in how we view sex workers and treat cases of rape, instead of singling out the present population of men as if we are mostly to blame...

I will readily admit that you are right about me not looking to this thread for an education. I'm no scholar, that's for sure. However, it seems your point applies to us both, we have made up our minds about some points and moved on. There are plenty of people who criticize the idea of rape culture from a feminist perspective, but you clearly either do not wish to consider or have already rejected them. I think that's just as big a shame as my bad attitude and acidic tone, because ultimately I have much more in common with you than some MRA or patriarchal religion, but I doubt we will ever get along. Sure that's at least half my fault, but that doesn't make you entirely correct...

[ismnotwasm]

47. Actually I've looked at all sides

Concluding not only that I live in a rape culture--but a world wide rape culture was neither an easy or pleasant conclusion to reach. It hurts.

But it can be changed--it is being changed. We tend to see the world through American eyes, not realizing the activism that's going around the world.

Here's a word I like; intersectionality. Combining the fight against injustice, oppression, bigotry and misogyny for women all over the world and through spectrums of feminism. Realizing my cis-white female experience is not the standard for many women.

But we all share rape culture, I think conflating rape culture and individual acts of rape in a discussion about rape culture is counterproductive, and leads to divisiveness, not to mention it exposes an ignorance of what rape culture is.

[Threedifferentones]

50. The statement "most men are complicit in rape culture" does not seem to intersect different forms

of oppression. Just the opposite, it focuses on one form of oppression, sexual violence, and attributes it to one broad group of people: a majority of men, ie most. I do not see how that can be argued to be an intersection of forms of oppression.

It's strange you should mention intersectionality, because it's the sort of concept I think you are not really employing. Framing social problems as something which are caused by men as a group is not intersecting forms of oppression or membership in different oppressed groups.

Noticing that victims of poverty, war and rape all get blamed for their own vulnerability, and the evil actions of their oppressors, is intersectionality, because it is a point that draws a parallel between different groups that are abused in different ways. Abusers have long known that if they can frame weakness/vulnerability as a moral failing, they can justify their abuse. IE:

1. If he weren't so lazy/stupid, he would not be out of a job and poor! When in fact most economic hardship or success can be attributed to accident of birth.

2. If he couldn't handle combat, he should not have joined the army! When in fact many people sign those papers just to get a decent job, and then find themselves thrown into a meat grinder when our leaders need a war.

3. If she hadn't gone to that bar alone, she would not have been in that position! When in fact if that rapist would either respect the rights of other humans OR fear the repercussions of getting caught he would not have attacked her, and she could live without that anxiety that I as a man will never know.

Another example of an intersectionality would be to point out that poor women are much more likely to resort to sex work, and that sex work puts one at a vastly increased chance of being abused. Then continue that by pointing out the correlation between skin color and economic status, and questioning the reasons it exists.

Though I believe feminist scholars first coined the term, intersectionality is not a word that must be used exclusively for issues of gender and sexual violence/oppression, and I think that point has a lot to do with SOME of the criticisms this group takes here on DU, which does not mean I don't notice all the trolling you take.

[ismnotwasm]

52. I think

You and I would have to have a long conversation to come to an understanding. We seem to be talking past one another.

I do not get the impression of hostility or trolling from you, but simply a basic lack of understanding of how pervasive rape culture is.

Many men, because they love and respect the women in their lives, react with indignation or anger at the idea they may be participating in rape culture. This is, of course understandable.

It sounds as though you are trying to bring class arguments into this discussion. Class affects rape culture as a matter of degree, not as as matter of whether it exists.

Actually I agree in part with your last statement; Intersectionality could/ should be used for people to understand and accept the 'other', which includes blurry gender lines.

[Threedifferentones]

59. Indeed we are

And I think in my haste to write these morning replies I have not even been fully aware myself of what I really want to say about this thread, what motivated me to respond in the first place. Maybe it is best said as:

I look at these patterns of abuse, dominance and social hierarchy, as a problem we people of today have inherited from the people of the past. I do also think that most of these issues fit under the umbrella term of "patriarchy."

The word people is key to me. I think that children take social cues from adults and develop attitudes about things like sex and gender before they are old enough even to understand what those things mean. There can be no doubt that our cultural traditions give primacy to men, and generally portray women as they are seen from a man's perspective. However those traditions are embraced by people of both sexes. Patriarchy certainly benefits men, but it was not created by people alive today, and it is not maintained only, or even mostly, by men.

As an example of this in relation to rape culture, off the top of my head, I would point to that horrible Steubenville case. As you may recall, the prosecuting attorney for that county is the mother of one of the perpetrators. When the rape was initially reported, she told the victim it would not be worth pressing charges because they would be hard to prove and would involve a lot of attacks on her reputation. SHE used all the tropes of rape culture in an effort to protect a male rapist.

Similarly, before the case made national news the families of Steubenville, who have mothers as well as fathers, were apparently willing to let that assault slide. Do you think it is outrageous for me to believe that the PA and some of her fellow Steubenville mothers took some comfort by telling themselves "that slut just should not have put herself in that position?"

When someone says that "men generally do x," the implication is that women do not. This is a point that was made often by earlier feminists, who resented that men would write about "mankind" or "all men being created equal," instead of saying humanity or people. The obvious implication from those patriarchal writers was that women did not count, the very language used to describe history deliberately left women out.

And therein lies my complaint with your post, which I was unfortunately unable to state concisely, and maybe still have failed to do. To the extent that all this horrible slut shaming, victim blaming and objectification makes up a "rape culture," that culture is supported by a lot of PEOPLE, not merely a lot of men.

Having said that I am sorry to have been so short with ya'll, to have gotten so angry so fast. Looking back over this thread I do not know that my posts contributed anything useful, in fact the opposite is quite possible. Maybe tomorrow morning I will go back and replace those posts with apologies...but for now I gtg my rl won't wait!

Hope your day own goes well, take care, peace, que le vaya bien, etc...

[seabeyond]

60. firstly

I look at these patterns of abuse, dominance and social hierarchy, as a problem we people of today have inherited from the people of the past. I do also think that most of these issues fit under the umbrella term of "patriarchy."

The word people is key to me. I think that children take social cues from adults and develop attitudes about things like sex and gender before they are old enough even to understand what those things mean. There can be no doubt that our cultural traditions give primacy to men, and generally portray women as they are seen from a man's perspective. However those traditions are embraced by people of both sexes. Patriarchy certainly benefits men, but it was not created by people alive today, and it is not maintained only, or even mostly, by men.

no one has argued this. further, we repeatedly state this over and over and over, only to have people argue this with us. i think it is about a given. hence, us also arguing and posting about the objectification of our young, the teaching of gender roles, and working towards totally obliterating that concept. not to mention the repeated cries how damaging it is to both genders boys and girls, those specific harms and preventive measures. so right here i gotta say....

thank you so much for your enlightenment? agreement?

now. i will continue to read. that is just the teeniest fo insulting, but who knows... maybe your next paragraph will grab me.

[ismnotwasm]

62. ...

[mercuryblues]

65. by letting the

people around you know that jokes about rape, DV etc. are not acceptable, you are speaking out against the rape culture. It is real whether you put it in quotes or not.

The parallel seems obvious because it is. . By saying that HoF insists on seeing feminism through a vacuum is not true. If you care to read you will find many treads and posts that make just that point. That sentence right there also reeks of the "you ain't doing feminism right, so I won't support you" and if feminists don't speak out against all injustices, I can't take them seriously" memes. I have no idea if that is what you meant by that, but that is how it can be interpreted.

Everyone in America is complicit is the culture of violence in one way or another. Mostly just by being at war with Eastasia or Urasia. Odd thing is, I never heard the argument that war protesters should not be taken seriously because they don't speak out for feminist issues. Or those that fight and speak out against poverty shouldn't be taken seriously because they don't speak out against sexism. No, that "honor" is only bestowed upon feminists. Why is that?

But here is a simple definition of rape culture:

Rape Culture is an environment in which rape is prevalent and in which sexual violence against women is normalized and excused in the media and popular culture. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification of women’s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, thereby creating a society that disregards women’s rights and safety.

Rape Culture affects every woman. The rape of one woman is a degradation, terror, and limitation to all women. Most women and girls limit their behavior because of the existence of rape. Most women and girls live in fear of rape. Men, in general, do not. That’s how rape functions as a powerful means by which the whole female population is held in a subordinate position to the whole male population, even though many men don’t rape, and many women are never victims of rape. This cycle of fear is the legacy of Rape Culture.

http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/

[KitSileya]

66. Kudos!

This was an awesome post. I just thought you should know that.

[mercuryblues]

68. thank you.

Your post above hit the nail on the head. It matters not, if women say some men. most men. few men. There will always be the concern trolls.

When that tactic gets old, they move on to, but it isn't as bad as you say, here are Op's graphs and links to prove it. When that gets debunked. they move on to the tone.

their shtick is obvious.

[Threedifferentones]

69. I neglected to edit the post you are responding to, unlike the others, but as I said my point

was made hastily and was not clear.

Saying men instead of people is a deliberate choice. It intentionally omits women and only includes men. The fact of the matter is that by whatever definition you use of rape culture, most women are also complicit, as I attempted to illustrate with my point about Stuebenville.

If someone consistently specifies today's men as a group responsible for patriarchy's various ills, that reveals he believes women do not take part in it. Otherwise, she would have said people and not men. Again, this is a similar point to early feminist critiques of HIStory. Nobody ever denies anymore that when Jefferson wrote "all men are created equal" he was deliberately excluding women, just as it is undeniable that by saying "most men" one is deliberately excluding women. Can you imagine someone saying that just because Jefferson wrote only men he did not necessarily believe women were not included?

By the standards of this board most women are not feminists. By the standards of this board most women are complicit in rape culture. If women spoke with one voice we could end patriarchy today, but that ain't gonna happen.

The fact of the matter is many women would say "well if she doesn't want to be abused she should not be a whore." The fact of the matter is that people learn about sex and gender when they are children and too young to know better. If growing up under a patriarchal system excuses a woman for not realizing she is being oppressed, then that must also excuse a man for not realizing he is oppressive.

In terms of rape culture, whether the person doing the victim blaming is male or female does not change the twisted logic that is employed. As such patriarchy is a human problem, not exclusively a male problem.

Your definition of rape culture has nothing to do with my point, as ismnotwasm said we are basically talking past each other. The points you and your link make about rape are not wrong, but they are irrelevant to the distinction I am trying to draw about the OP.

[mercuryblues]

70. so what

you are saying is that unless a women, oops person, types in "and women" each and every time their point can not be taken seriously? for real? Perhaps someone is just trying to discuss the male aspect of it. How many times in this thread alone has it been stated that certainly, women have bought into the rape culture, that point has not been denied. Even the definition I supplied included women in the definition. So why focus on the "but, but women do it too"?

As for supplying the definition, you previously stated that you were not sure of what rape culture meant. You corroborated your ambiguity about the subject when you put quotes around rape culture. Sometimes I find it helpful if everyone starts on the same page.

Growing up under a patriarchal system does not excuse anyone for being oppressive. This is where the nuanced part of thinking comes in. Some women are not aware Of the oppression. Take Lily Ledbetter for instance. She assumed that she was earning the same as the men in the same position. It was not until she was ready to retire that, she found out differently. As a result it affected her pension and social security payments. Some women just don't care for various reasons. some women use it as an excuse to not take responsibility. Some women believe the Bible tells them so.

Some women use it as an excuse to bully other women as a way to be accepted into the men's club. Which is why some women discuss the male aspect - to break the cycle. The best part is when people, men and women grow up and realize that their actions [oppression or willingly oppressed] has a domino effect and strive to do better, not only for themselves but also for those around them.

What I observe is fewer and fewer women, and men buying into patriarchy. Which is a reason for those that actively do are becoming more vocal and doubling down on the hate. I liken it to the republican party/teabaggers phenomenon. The more the republicans become obsolete; the more their ideas are rejected and proven failures, they are left with only their base to speak for them. Moderates need not apply. The result is a smaller but more rabid voice.

[Threedifferentones]

71. Your post illustrates the "so what" quite well, and the nuances of oppression are what you ignore.

My earlier post was worse than unclear, it was inaccurate, but I have already admitted this. The point is that if I understand what rape culture is, then women are clearly also complicit. If women are not complicit in rape culture, I do not know what rape culture is. Hence the Steubenville example.

According to you, growing up under a patriarchal system does not excuse someone for being oppressive, but it does excuse someone for not realizing she is being oppressed. The models on the front of a swimsuit cover are innocent because they grew up in a system which encouraged them to see themselves as beautiful objects and discouraged them from developing other talents. However, the men who grew up under that same system will not be excused for being trained to believe that seeing women as a sexual resource instead of full fledged humans is okay, even though many of the women around them behave in ways that reenforce that belief.

That logic is not consistent. Either people's incorrect beliefs and harmful assumptions are excused by their upbringing and their culture, or they are not. Men also play the role expected of them in order to fit in with the people around them, to be "accepted into the club."

This becomes especially important to realize in light of what you call the "domino effect," which I call a vicious cycle.
If all the models of the world suddenly refused to indulge the male gaze, little girls would no longer have those role models to shape their perceptions. And if all the men suddenly realized how many women feel demeaned by being reduced to a set of body parts, and how much talent we are wasting by oppressing or ignoring the thoughts of women, maybe we would probably stop producing all that BS. But we are stuck in a cycle.

Boys grow up seeing that in order to be "cool" and "manly" they need to be the strongest and the richest to "get" a lot of women. And girls grow up seeing that their highest ideal is sex appeal, and that they will know they have it when they are being pursued by a strong/rich man. Unfortunately, by the time we are adults many of us are unable or unwilling to see what a crock of shit that really is, and so the cycle continues.

I hope I have not given the impression that I don't know that patriarchy sets men up as primary and women as second class. In that sense it benefits the men of today, with things like higher wages etc. But many times it seems this group (HOF) in particular is framing struggle against it as men vs. women, instead of feminists vs patriarchs, liberated thought vs. antiquated tradition. That dynamic ignores all the ways in which violence, dominance and hierarchy are created, accepted, and perpetuated by people. It ignores the ways in which accepting one form of oppression, like rich and poor, reenforce accepting other forms, like sexism and slut shaming. IE in our society people will blame a sex worker for being assaulted, an unemployed worker for being laid off, or a homeless combat vet for being traumatized. Thus blaming the victim is not an issue that is exclusive to rape. The point of this example is to demonstrate that sexism is not a societal problem unto itself, but rather one manifestation of how violence and hierarchy are fundamental to our culture.

When a person means to say all people then she says people. Jefferson did not see anything wrong with continuing to exclude women, so he wrote "all men," just like all his peers. The OP likewise excluded women from complicity by specifying "men," just like many of her peers. I for one am an exception in that regard, though I'm certainly not alone. This becomes very obvious when statements like the OP's get made in the less sheltered arena of GD.

Please don't take that to mean I don't realize ya'll get plain ole trolled in GD, such as the posting of the aforementioned swimsuit cover and a million other examples I can't recall offhand. Still, if the OP had just left out that comment, or changed men to people, then I could have had something to cheer about. Instead I have to pick at her comment. You may feel this is just nit picking, but IMO the struggle for justice requires unity, not exclusion, which is why this particular nuance (men or people) is an important discussion.

[mercuryblues]

72. again

no one here is denying women are complicit. Yet you seem fixated on insisting so. Perhaps

According to you, growing up under a patriarchal system does not excuse someone for being oppressive, but it does excuse someone for not realizing she is being oppressed. The models on the front of a swimsuit cover are innocent because they grew up in a system which encouraged them to see themselves as beautiful objects and discouraged them from developing other talents. However, the men who grew up under that same system will not be excused for being trained to believe that seeing women as a sexual resource instead of full fledged humans is okay, even though many of the women around them behave in ways that reenforce that belief.

Back to Lily Ledbetter, do you think that the men, who set her pay were not aware they were paying her far less than the men she worked beside? I meant to add in (then realizing I was late for an apt) just hit post. there is no excuse for the women who actively participates in the system, knowing the harm it does to others. Do you think the men who chose that cove for SI were not aware that the T&A pic on the cover objectified women? hell that is the reason they put it there, to boost their sales.
Like I said, nuances.

[Sheldon Cooper]

46. Excellent response!

[LanternWaste]

58. You hold yourself to a lower standard than others...?

You then hold yourself to a lower standard than others...? I can only imagine the both the ethical and the mental convenience that would allow one.

I ask because it's difficult to see any other rational reason you'd respond with the combination of scolding on the one hand, coupled with a petulant picture on the other.

(Insert distinction without a difference here for the sake of personal validation)

[gollygee]

63. Most = 50% +1 or more

Not 50% +1 of men at DU even, just 50% +1 of men in general - and not that such a high percentage of men are rapists, but that they contribute to rape culture, either as rapists, or as people in the criminal justice system who don't take rape seriously, or politicians who don't take rape seriously, or who cheer them on and support them, or who have a "bros before hos" policy and don't report rape they're aware of or suspect, or who tell rape jokes, or who make movies/ads/music that minimize or excuse rape, or who don't consider date rape to be "real rape" or "forcible rape" or who otherwise categorize some rape as not that bad, who cheer that on and support it, etc.

I think it's over 50% of men in general. And probably a pretty high percentage of women in general as well. Not such a high percentage of men (and women) at DU, but in the world overall.

[seabeyond]

64. can i simply copy and paste your post for the rest of time... nt

[amuse bouche]

10. Saw a reference to this in another thread

but my post wouldn't go through. The OP had a problem with the following

"Most men... are certainly complicit in Rape Culture"

I don't know about 'most' but many are complicit

I learned this many years ago. There was a famous case in Massachusetts, where a woman was raped on a pool table in a bar and the male patrons did absolutely nothing to stop it

It knocked the naivete right out of me. It was a shocking, sad and awesome life lesson for me

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. That thread was locked and rightfully so. That is why your post would not go through.

The person that posted it is disingenuous at best.

[amuse bouche]

21. Ok, thanks

Too bad though. I dislike the practice of locking threads

That and the ridiculous number of alerts

[Tuesday Afternoon]

29. I am not overfond of the practice of alerting, either. The number of threads locked has diminished

substantially since the advent of DU3.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. Rec because Yay!!

and also because some people have a weird way of comprehending what they read.

How in the hell that person got that from the OP title I will never understand.

[UtahLib]

20. Thanks for the info, ism

I'm sorry your OP was so baldly misrepresented in GD for no other purpose than stirring shit. Pretty sad that HOF is considered fair game, by some, who love nothing more than wallowing in their own egos.

[ismnotwasm]

34. I swear I haven't been here and missed whatever happened.

I was a tad late for work and didn't get a chance to post my other excellent article, along with my personal commentary. Thanks for your support.


Didn't see it and I won't care-- we're off to see "Sir Spam-a-lot" at the 5ave theater.

[ismnotwasm]

31. Damn I just started this and went to work

Busy day.


The negative reactions are from not understanding what rape culture is. Prostitution, for instance, is part of rape culture.

[seabeyond]

38. as your question above shows, you are right. they either slightly kinda believe a rape culture even

exists... but just grouped, lol, or it doesnt exist. and even with that, really do not have a very good definition of it. but... i am into a book, so not missing with it today. cant read a book while eating a hot fudge sundae, so had to go back to puter, lol

now, off to the book

did you enjoy your movie?

[ismnotwasm]

40. We're two hours early sitting in a Starbucks

Because of parking and this is the second to the last show-- it's a Monty Python musical and I hear it's hilarious

[seabeyond]

41. have a blast. sounds like fun. nt

[redqueen]

49. Most men are.

Most people are.

I'm astounded that this is viewed as a controversial statement. People on DU used to have some idea that views here weren't necessarily common among the general public. But when this kind of comment is made, though, it's somehow taken as a grave offense by certain posters here against all the men of DU. Interesting that in a thread about a rapist going to prison, the most important thing to some people here is how objectively true statements about society in general apparently hurt some people's feelings.

If I said 'most people don't care about politics' no one would start bellyaching about how insulting it was to DUers.

[ismnotwasm]

54. It's because the majority of rapists are men

And since the majority of men aren't rapists, they don't want the term anywhere near them. It frightens and angers them.

"Rape culture" can seem-- or even be, complex, although it's clear as day to me.

[redqueen]

55. It disgusts me that any man, or any female ally of such men,

knowing how many people are raped, can prioritize their feelings over the effort to call out and end rape culture.

[ismnotwasm]

56. And yet, that's what the majority of them do

I got in trouble for that word didn't I? A good portion then, or something.

It's also why I have nothing but respect and support for men's activists groups that work to end rape and rape culture.

I've always found it strange that they don't get more support from men around here. Groups like http://www.mencanstoprape.org

They do quite a lot of positive work, and are very active, are pro-healing for men and women

[redqueen]

57. Sadly, I don't find it strange at all. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

51. Thank you for posting this! It's good to see these individuals being punished. nt

[ismnotwasm]

53. Yes it is