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Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 01:14 AM Mar 2014

I think with a lot of these "controversial" subjects it is impossible to make others believe...

This may be a bad analogy but it's the one that's stuck in my head. It is like trying to teach calculus to someone who's never learned algebra. The person has no concept of the methods or symbols being referred to.

Now, we might argue that everyone has experience with white privilege, especially the white individuals who tend to deny it the most. But I think we are confusing experience with understanding. Just as the person who's never learned algebra is nonetheless subject to its application all the time, so too is the person who is subject to white privilege but knows nothing of its mechanisms. As far as that person is concerned, white privilege is simply living. It might as well be magic.

Demystification is an extremely uncomfortable practice for everyone in different ways. If we don't follow the right path to understanding, if we leap frog over fundamentals, we cannot really expect someone to agree with what we're saying because they simply don't understand. It may not necessarily be malicious intent on their part (although I will not entirely dismiss the possibility).

There is so much theory that must be taught, so much evidence that must be presented, that it is impossible to change the mind of someone so far removed from our conclusions in an entire thread of discussion, let alone in one or two posts.

Is there a solution to this problem on DU? I really honestly don't know for certain. But what I think might help is addressing these resistant individuals in a more elementary manner. Go further back in the argument strand to a point where there is some sort of mutual understanding and then move forward from there.

Sometimes we don't have the time or, if we do, the will, to educate individuals who on the surface are so repellant. And I completely understand anyone who doesn't want to feel like they're wasting their time. But I'm certainly going to try a little harder and see what happens.

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I think with a lot of these "controversial" subjects it is impossible to make others believe... (Original Post) Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 OP
I don't think they are unable to understand BainsBane Mar 2014 #1
To extend your metaphor a little, JoeyT Mar 2014 #2
You bring up some good points. F4lconF16 Mar 2014 #3
The thing that most makes me understand my white privilege is the fact that Squinch Mar 2014 #4
I don't know ismnotwasm Mar 2014 #5

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
1. I don't think they are unable to understand
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 01:44 AM
Mar 2014

They make a determined decision not to listen. It's not like calculus. It's like deciding global climate change isn't happening. They don't need to read theory. They just need to care enough to listen to people who have experienced racism.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
2. To extend your metaphor a little,
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:07 AM
Mar 2014

it's like teaching calculus to someone who's never learned algebra, and has a vested interest in not learning either one.

Here it feels more some like people think that acknowledging privilege somehow diminishes their triumphs or tragedies, when it doesn't actually do either one. I'm not sure how to convince them of that, though.

F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
3. You bring up some good points.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 04:47 AM
Mar 2014

First of all, I hope this post makes sense. I wrote this attempting to flesh out a few thoughts I've had running around in my head and just haven't been able to put into words until I read your post.

I think that what you're saying only applies to some people. From my experience, there are three types of people that I debate and argue with. All three originally hold opinions different from mine.

The first holds their viewpoints closely, but is open minded and interested in hearing more. They are willing to learn, and willing to listen. Continuing your metaphor, I would liken them to a student who, while having no clue what a partial derivative is, is actively (and this is the key difference from the second type of people) trying to learn the basics of algebra in order to reach a conclusion later.

The second kind of people I argue with are what I think you are talking about above. They are the students who are "so far removed from our conclusions" that they have no idea what's going on. They may resist the ideas we bring to them at first out of confusion, but they are still willing to learn, if not actively try to pursue more knowledge.

The third is the type of people I dislike debating and talking to. They are the few people I will give up on, that I refuse to waste my time on. They are the children who not only don't understand algebra and hence not calculus, but don't want to understand. They cover their ears and sing so they can't hear you. Many (if not most) even know that they might change their mind, but are so devoted to their own beliefs that they will actively work against understanding something.

For me, most of the time this plays out in religious debates. I'm a fairly unabashed atheist, and I often have friendly debates with people I know. Rarely do I ever encounter someone of the third type I described, but I know when I do. They are the ones who tell me I'm going to hell, who tell me my gay friends are going to hell, who tell me that the bible is the literal truth of god and the only thing that they will ever consider. They cut me off when I try to talk to them, they do everything possible to avoid even hearing any ideas that aren't there own. For those of you who are religious, I say this not to try to disparage your beliefs, but to describe a type of person I've encountered, as religion is my most common experience with them.

Sadly, I've also had the same problem when I've argued with MRAs and rape apologists who tell me that my best friends were stupid and probably deserved what they got. I've found the same problem with people who hate muslims and who talk about the "raghead" who runs this country. I've found the same problem when I talk to most any people with substantial bigotry. They do not listen, they do not care. I know you say that we often don't have the will to try and educate individuals "who on the surface are so repellant". It's hard to quit for me, but there are times I realize I am fighting a pointless fight.

I think that the first two types of people are people that we should talk to. Despite their "repellant" beliefs, at least I can talk to them. They constitute the majority of people, and they for the most part are willing to listen and learn. Despite the huge gap between beliefs, they are willing to help build the bridge between them. We can start building the foundation for them to understand our conclusions. They are willing to learn algebra in order to try to understand our fascination with calculus later on.

I think that's where our hope lies. I don't have a good answer as to whether we can really start building that foundation in places like the threads on DU, as it's hard to communicate often very complex ideas in such a small forum. But it's a start, and those willing to learn will pay attention. One post, one thread at a time, they will listen, and they will begin to understand. Often we will butt heads with those who disagree. In the recent GD "gender wars" threads, we will feel like we're not making any progress. But then someone will come along and say "hey, I never realized how bad this problem was before. But I'm listening, and I want you to know I'm on your side." They're the people that I work in my offline life to reach out to. Despite their initial resistance, I find common ground with them, and then try to explain my beliefs and thoughts from that point onwards. I agree; despite the challenge it presents, I will keep trying a little harder, and see what happens: in my experience, it's usually worth the effort.

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
4. The thing that most makes me understand my white privilege is the fact that
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:50 AM
Mar 2014

I have witnessed people I love, for whom I feel a lot of empathy, experience their lack of that privilege. In those instances, when it happens to these particular people, it really brings it home to me that there is a host of things that they have to deal with, and be aware of, and absorb into their psyches in order to be safe and make their way in the world. Things that I do not need to deal with to make my way through the world.

Those who live in an all white neighborhood and who have all white friends and relations may say that they don't have that second thing, and that is the reason they don't see white privilege. But I would say that the mere fact of living in an "all white" world is proof of an awareness of white privilege, and proof they are working very hard to avoid looking at their white privilege while at the same time taking every advantage of it.

This stubborn denial that we have seen here, this refusal to concede that it even exists, is either the result of an infantile self-absorption, or a real effort not to see what is in front of their faces.

ismnotwasm

(41,919 posts)
5. I don't know
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 10:09 AM
Mar 2014

I've read extensively on the subject, taken " Ethnic America" classes women's studies,?and world literature classes; Im naturally curious; but learning about privilege-- how deep it runs and how it supports our economy in certain ways-- that took a while, the deeper you deep the issue is revealed to be be more complex and a large part of culture.


I other words, I cared enough about the topic to try to learn and grow. If someone doesn't care? They're not going to look past the superficial. And you don't need to study to recognize privilege; it's everywhere. The denial is out of fear and anger. Sometimes unfortunately, and perhaps more common than is sometimes apparent it comes out of genuine, unapologetic racism or misogyny

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