when i see a video, and i hear people cheer the video seeing a girl,

[seabeyond]

having an object shoved up her, i see du in a really ugly way. and i do not want to be a part of that. it has been a while since i saw the video. thurs nite.

i do not care if the intent of the video is to "shock" for good, for entertainment, to sell a product or for men to get off.

when i see a video on du of a girl getting something shoved up her....

i know it is time i walked.

i did. and i still have not gotten past it.

that we as a culture, a society needs to see this video of something being shoved up a girl, in order to feel. i think that says a hell of a lot about us. i think that maybe we ought to stop a moment and think about that.

what the fuck does it say about us?

[malthaussen]

1. As I said to you at the time, my reaction is similar.

I assume good will on the part of the makers of the film and the people who posted it. But it is difficult for me to see how it could have the desired effect. OTOH, I'm already aware of what is happening in the Congo, so I don't need to see it "dramatized."

I would observe that visual artists tend to see things in terms of visual art. I don't think "we as a culture" need visual stimulus of this nature to feel repugnant at the situation in the Congo (or anywhere else war is served), and I think the people who made the video are wrong in assessing that such shock-value is necessary. It is probably true that few know what is happening and fewer care. But there are other ways to get the message out.

Having said that, I wouldn't have voted to ban it. I do tend to shy away from the "this mustn't be seen" response.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

3. " I do tend to shy away from the "this mustn't be seen" response." then, normalize.

shoving objects up a girl.

cause that is all it accomplishes.

[malthaussen]

6. I doubt it accomplishes even that.

Don't think anyone watching is going to think it "normalizes" the act.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

7. of course it does. literally, with our brain. we factually know it to be true.

we deny it only with certain things. when coming up to the line. where we then step over to the normalization. literally, with our brain function, each time we see, we become more desensilitzed. hence the need for continual escalation. the mere fact of having to shove an object up that girl in order for us to be .... fuckin, horrified.

to feel.

we go to the next step. what will that be,

[malthaussen]

8. But the mere fact that the makers of the film...

... thought it was necessary in order horrify people, does not prove it is necessary. The onus lies on the filmmakers, not society.

Their defense, of course, would be that they are simply depicting a fact, that this is what really happened. So the answer to your question about the next step and crossing the line is already provided, as it has already happened. But that is again an indictment of the actors, and not society.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

9. it is an indictment of society. if people do not say no. just no. nt

[malthaussen]

11. Then wouldn't the same argument apply to even informing us that this happened?

What, in terms of indicting society, is the difference between a visual depiction of an act, and the reporting of an act?

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

14. how does the visual affect us? you ask?

Dehumanizing. The horror of is blurred with entertainment, corporate prudtc and men getting off. Pleasure triggers next to a horror?

Really, this op is focused and I personally am not deviating from the bottom line to a philosophy.

The first line we crossed is what I'm am thinking about. Feeling. Addressing.

[malthaussen]

17. Sorry, wasn't trying to divert...

... just dig deeper into your thoughts.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

19. but... my suggestion is, it is not digging deeper. it is running away.

it is taking away from the original, cause we do not want to own, admit, see, address.

that is my point. what i saw in the re directing of the point.

the extent we have to go to today, in order to feel. and how our girls are almost always used in the sexual deprivation to horrify, entertain, sell and get men off.

[ismnotwasm]

2. That people not only objectify women-- they objectify Sex itself

My theory is it comes not only from sexual repression and guilt-- although at first glance it doesn't seem that way; but a total lack of knowledge of what good sex is.

Now people will say it's a choice, a fetish, free speech -- and that may even be true.

But if there is anything I Can't stand, I mean truly despise, it's bad sex. You can have great sex with out orgasmic release, you can indulge in fantasy and games-- it's when sex becomes a neo-freak show that I think we've lost our way.

Sometimes it's not what you do-- its the way you do it, and we already know some of our sexually repressed members think gross out shit is erotic-- because they're ignorant.

Rape culture plays a part in this as well

[seabeyond]

4. it bottom lines to.... purposely hurting a girl (or woman) to make a statement.

be entertained. sell something. or get off on.

i do not go past that.

at that point, i know, there is universally a wrong.

[ismnotwasm]

5. Yeah I tend to over- analyze

But it's true I believe-- and what you said is true- some wrongs just hit you in the gut

I've watched movies at home-- on depicting the horrors the Japanese inflicted on their POW's at their internment camps-- some of it was graphic like that. It wasn't sexual, but one horrid scene involved pornographic close ups of a women's sexual organs. I wondered-- how many would watch this and see a sexual act?

That's closer to what I mean

[malthaussen]

10. I think that leads into a morass of trying to define a "sexual act."

Granted that our society does seem to have a problem differentiating between sex and violence. But that's also not a new thing, as violence has been expressed through sexual assault throughout recorded history. Which might lead one to wonder if it is part of a genetic inheritance and not a cultural one.

-- Mal

[ismnotwasm]

12. I found the movie

"Philosophy of a Knife"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0961119/

It is in two parts. It's part horror, part history. I Can watch that kind of thing, whereas others would be utterly repulsed. The scene in question was in the form of a medical experiment, a large cockroach was placed, up close and with some difficulty, in a woman's vagina, (I won't mention where it came out)

This is what I mean. The act was not sexual, although by this point the Japanese medical personal and troops were beyond sanity so who knows.

Given our taste for more and more bizarre imagery, I wonder at this, I wonder if it would be seen a sexual act.

[malthaussen]

13. Probably by some people.

Since human conduct is subject to the tyranny of the bell-curve.

I don't know if I'm so much "repulsed" by horror, as just see it as pointless. Of course, some is so over-the-top it's just pure corn. And some of it is just so bizarre, I can't relate at all, and it certainly doesn't appeal to my sense of aesthetics.

Back in my counselling center days, we used to occasionally talk about the "bathtub theory" of tolerance. Kind of a riff off of increased drug tolerance through exposure. The farther out stuff gets, the farther out we have to go to get a reaction from a jaded audience. And that ties in to Seabeyond's thought about normalization and crossing the line. At what point, then, does what was once considered "far out" become "normalized." One would hope that sanity could be preserved... but one might just be drawing to an inside straight in that case.

-- Mal

[ismnotwasm]

16. Kind of what I think

No one wants to restrict consensual sexual activity ( the word "consensual"would need to be unpacked a bit)

But while I think most people have regular "boring", if you will, sex,( even with a little spice thrown in) the increase in dangerous fetishisms is puzzling unless certain comfortable conclusions are drawn around what consent is, as well as the pervasive abuse done women and Gays-- especially Gay men, who are "feminized", no matter how much bullshit that is-- around the world.

(I admit to liking pretty bad horror movies. It's more the irony I find in them than the violence--although I found my personal limit at "The Human Centipede" he first one was true horror, the second was a gratuitous spin off the concept and I refuse to watch it.)

[malthaussen]

20. I do tend to think people have the right to go to hell in their own fashion...

... which is a pretty extremist view. Instinctively, I feel that the increase in dangerous fetishism mostly comes from suppressed and misdirected rage, although in certain cases it may truly be ennui. Depends on how much privilege one perceives himself as having.

-- Mal

[ismnotwasm]

22. Interesting and accurate point of view IMO

I just realized I put 'people' on a level planning field.

Yes they have the right to go their way, but my basic philosophy is "do no harm" and I believe the more selfishly self indulgent one is-- the higher the risk of harming an innocent.

So we have laws all the way to lines in the sand--whatever boundaries we can come up with

[malthaussen]

40. I mean much the same thing when I talk about "damage control."

We can spend all the time we want talking about causes and what's really goin' on, so long as we make damned sure that in practice, laws and social conduct do not permit or encourage harm. Unfortunately, we don't do a great job.

But as I also like to say, hey, at least rape isn't a tort anymore. That's progress, if you like.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

23. do you think maybe... because you are a man not seeing these humiliations done to your body,

your gender on a regular basis, in so many facets to sell, shock, as entertainment, or for the other gender to sexually get off on your pain, humiliation, degradtion, might allow you to see this in a different manner?

also in real time, real life, what we have lived for ever as a female body.

[malthaussen]

25. Oh, unquestionably, Seabeyond.

Also, I am pretty desensitized to horrors in general. Comes from reading too much history. The visceral reaction to the visual you mentioned upthread also doesn't seem to hit me as often. I am a weird puppy in many respects.

This is one reason, as I've mentioned to Ism, that horror flicks don't do much for me. I'm not titillated at all. (Which is not to suggest that anyone else is)

My basic reaction to the film in question was "People, I don't think this is going to do what you want it to." Isolated, abstracted, not wanting to face the horror? Possibly, as I would hardly claim to be the master of my own subconscious.

It would appear anyway from the comment by Squinch that in at least one case, I was wrong in my assessment of the film's possible effect. Which is why, in fact, I didn't comment on it at the time -- I know my critical faculty is faulty in that respect.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

21. none of it is sexual, and yet sexually gets men off. point. this is my point. we create. with this

and have been for years.

the new fad, as much as the pro porn like to pretend, and mislead otherwise. pretend we are so extreme, looking for the worst, or that it is uncommon or a fetish. a popular fad is sticking a dick in a butt, then womans mouth for her to literally eat shit.

it is not sexual.

but the guys get off on it hard bad, .... ya. that.

nothing is any more stimulating in the physical act. it is purely about degrading. that isnt sexual. that is not about sex. that is another animal. and that is what i am addressing.

you creative mind of the movie maker stickin a cockroach up a women... is just that.

how to humiliate the most

or a recent horror film where the evil is in a vine. goes up the girls leg.... into vagina.... to entertain. and all the way thru. shoving shit up a girl, for entertainment.

[ismnotwasm]

24. And never the male

Isn't that interesting? Homophobia or misogyny or both? Afraid to relate to a male in the same position because it's more comfortable when it's a woman taking sexual abuse?

You must have seen the remake of "Evil Dead"

[seabeyond]

26. exactly. wouldnt a worse horror, rather than abusing a girls body have been, taking a grown man....

and raping him?

would that not have shocked everyone so much more?

cause i am telling you, being educated and aware of the issue without this video, another of the very real horrors in the congo is the men being raped in exactly the same manner, for the same reasons as our girls.

and THAT. would be the fuckin line of never crossing. cause... the men could not do it in a new york minute. as they tell us doing to our girls.... is merely to provide a shock, or sell a product. to entertain us, or a fantasy... just fantasy, cause really, real life it would be horrible, for a man to get off.

[malthaussen]

30. One of the questions I asked myself about this video

Was how much knowledge, if any, the vid makers had of the porn scene. Which is why I qualify my statement about the vid with "assuming good will" on the part of the producers.

-- Mal

[malthaussen]

28. I have no first-hand knowledge of such...

... but there is a subset of porn for male abuse. In the mainstream, you'll almost never see it, although certain mainstream flicks do come to mind that include male abuse or rape.

-- Mal

[ismnotwasm]

33. In Stephan Kings revised version of "The Stand"

He replaced just such a scene. He also doesn't shy away from male rape, although if there is rape it's most often female


I've seen those sites you're talking about; I heard the "what about Gay porn-- it doesn't objectify women" argument so often I just went and had me a look.

No women aren't involved usually,but the same dynamic seems to about the same. A lot of dominance, a lot of youth.

[malthaussen]

36. Yeah, these things are clearly about what I call "dominance dynamics."

Although I tend to think that sex in general is often about dominance dynamics.

One might toy with the argument that the problem is more one of expressing dominance through abuse, regardless of the gender of the abuse.

In alpha-male competition, the abuse is both verbal and physical, although only extending to sexual assault in particular circumstances. Or so I've been told. But when the competition is male-female, the line to sexual assault is crossed early and often.

-- Mal

[MadrasT]

44. Perhaps when people first and foremost think of penetrative sex as a violent act

(as the invasion of another person's space, which it literally is, unless the person being invaded has invited and welcomed that intermingling from the depth of their soul)

then violence and sex become inextricably interwoven in their minds

sex=violence=sex=violence=sex and so on and so on.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

49. yes, I can see how that happens in thinking of it all. Thank you.

[Squinch]

15. Sea, you and I may not agree on this...

but because I have such respect for your position, I'll try and explain mine.

Yes. I completely agree. The video was awful. I can see why you see it as a version of what we have been fighting here together, namely the exploitation and normalization of real and depicted violence caused by rape porn.

But I took something different from it. I have been dimly, only dimly, aware of what has been going on in the DRC. I have heard bits and pieces of it, but did not know how it connected with me. I did not realize that products that I use, that I buy, are involved in this horror. The rapes of this family depicted, to me, were very different from depictions of rape porn. It showed me that the people PERPETRATING the crimes are just like me. The video brought home to me the fact that I am complicit in the horror of these rapes that are happening in the DRC every day.

The message I took from the video is that WE are doing this. WE are guilty of this horror. This computer I am typing on right now is part of the problem. (I looked them up. They are one of the worst companies.)

I don't know if a less graphic video would have brought me up as short. I totally understand your revulsion. I do know that, having seen this one, I will never be able to participate in those atrocities the way I did before I saw it.

If there are others like me, who simply won't buy again from companies who are not working against this problem, if the depiction of the rape of this family prevents the actual rape of another family, I think the video will have been worth the horror and loathing that we feel watching it.

[seabeyond]

18. so i ask squinch. what are we going to have to do next to a girl, to horrify us, as this becomes

the new norm?

so that people can feel.

it took shoving something up a girl, in order to make you feel. you had heard this stuff for years. this video is 2011. the petition is old.

how much more disgusting must we get with our girls to make us feel.

the connection, from teh perspective i am talking about it....

it is same in selling the product. what next must we do to the girls to get your attention.

it is the same in our entertainment. what next must we do to our girls to take us further in attention.

it is the same in our porn. what next must we do to a girl to be able to get off.

how is that different.

losing the ability to feel. the extreme we are having to go to in order to feel.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

50. losing the ability to feel. the extreme we are having to go to in order to feel.

what happens next?

if we as a society do not reach a new, higher level of consciousness.

we will descend to a lower depth of depravity. if we haven't already.

Keep in mind that this has been going on already in real life for a long time.

The raping of women and the pillaging of villages.

[BainsBane]

27. The video on the Congo?

You may know I was upset the first two threads were hidden. I interpreted it as an effort to silence information about the actual horrors of rape, while discussion of rape as porn and therefore a source of male arousal is deemed acceptable. I think human rights in the Congo is an extremely important issue. However, I fully admit that I did not watch the video. I still won't, so I can't comment on its content. However, the subject is an enormously important one.

[seabeyond]

29. this is my point. women told me that video was needed to be aware. yet, i was aware without the

video. i could well grasp the horror without shoving a rifle up a girls vagina.

i say, this is exactly what the men were defending their right, their fantasy of doing with girls, that got them off.

they say a difference. i say no....

where would the difference be. simualtion is simulation of the same act.

you could not watch the video.

others could not participate in the rape porn threads.

yet.... i am the one over sensitive?

at least i know what the fuck i am talking about. (and this is not addressed to you baines). but the people that refuse to even acknowledge the rape porn issue in nov, bury their head in the sand, lecturing me.

[BainsBane]

31. I'll just point out there is a difference between porn and documentary

However, I'm not sure I see the point of a reenactment of that sort. Uppityperson had a very good OP on the same subject that contained no reenactment video.

[seabeyond]

32. then from a visual perspective. of watching. what is the difference.

both violent. both used to degrade, humiliate the girl for male sexual gratification. both simulated.

what is the difference?

and let me make clear. i have never made the statement this video is porn. i am saying. what is the difference, but that it is not more brutal than rape porn.

[BainsBane]

34. One is intended to inform, and does inform

The other is fetishistic portrayal for the purpose of arousal. I'm speaking in general here because as you know I did not see the video.

Think of all the kinds of documentaries that would be deemed inappropriate if one decided they were the same as the subject they covered: a documentary about the killings of women in Juarez vs. a snuff film; a documentary about racist lynchings or gay bashing vs. videos perpetrators might take to relive the thrill of their crimes.

[seabeyond]

37. i said from a visual perspective.

my point. we have our reasons. always our reasons to rape our girls. be it shock value for the good, entertainment, to sell something, for men to get off on.

you want to compartmentalize it with intent. something unseen, in a very visual experience.

in the visual of it, there is no difference.

hence me saying it is not porn. cause of intent. but visually, this is it.

so when i watched it, i immediately thought of our guys back in nov saying how this got them off.

my bad? i cannot unsee what i read.

i expressed, that watching that video took me back to our guys, applauding their rape porn. cause it is only a simulation. cause it is only a fantasy.

which took me to having to use an object up a girl regardless of intent. and how far we have come as a society. and what does it say about us.... to make people FEEL, we have to shove an object up a girl.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. this:

i immediately thought of our guys back in nov saying how this got them off.

is how that video affected you personally. I understand.

I too, am appalled that men like that are allowed to post here.

It boggles my mind that someone can get their jollies to scenes like the ones that were depicted in that video.

[seabeyond]

47. I, too, use to appease myself saying men are equally repulsed. Then I realized being men they could

Not... Be equally repulsed. This is not continually being done to their gender, for a lifetime, by the opposite gender. So, I appeased myself that at least men were repulsed surely, just not equally.

Rape porn is the most popular genre. The most popular. Rape porn. This visual. Men like it. They want it real. They tell themselves simulated, but.... They know it might not be. And still. Just fantasy. What has been seen cannot be unseen.

Rape porn week taught me. Men taught me. They talked. I listened.

And here I sit, bout myself

The song playing.... I walk alone


Lm Fuggin ao.

Dance and clean. Clean and dance. Thanks woman for this lead.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

48. Not all men participated in those threads. Surely, The Silent Majority of DU do not agree with

those "men" that talked on DU. The vocal few outshouted and were so interested in the topic they just had to participate in those threads.

How many more just trashed the threads and or used the trash key word option and went on about DU business never knowing what these few "men" were saying.

How many posted something else entirely in an effort to sink those threads.

Rape porn is the most popular genre.

Of the men that watch porn, rape porn is the most popular but, how many men are there that do Not Watch Porn?

I was so scared for that little girl running away from the house and toward (unwittingly) all those "soldiers" in the field beyond the treeline.

[seabeyond]

51. I was still sittin in the horror of the girl getting a rifle shoved up her.

And picturing what we were gonna see when they got the little one.

I hear all men do porn and if they tell you otherwise, they lie

Regardless. Porn is well used and rape porn is a fav.

Below you and others explain and state the why...

It is clear the why. My point takes in the why. Yes. There is always a why. I get it. The whys we rape our girls is to shock. The why we rape our girls is to entertain. The whys we rape our girls is to sell stuff. The whys we rape our girls is for men to get off. I get the whys

[Tuesday Afternoon]

52. That scene with the gun ... was just a flash. I actually missed it the first time I saw the video

and did not understand what this thread was about and had to go back and watch it again. Then, I saw, just a flash instant of that gun. It cuts away.

and Yes, I understand the whys, too. which are really the why nots ... why not do it?

That is what needs to be asked.

Why not Quit it?

and another question that has been on my mind with all the discussions lately.

Has anyone ever heard of anybody ever being turned away for porn?
Has the porn industry ever told someone No, you are not right for this ....

[ismnotwasm]

35. It goes back to my concern

I can and do watch horrific shit-- and even see the point of being graphic-- but I wonder at the state of our sexual culture-- so immersed in porn and rape culture--if the horrific and graphic images are seen as sexual. I think not to everybody, but more than most people would think

[seabeyond]

38. people coddle their "pretty little minds" (barbara bush, not an insult but point), to be able

to be inconsistent, or pursue agenda, or to enjoy their entertainment or any other reason.

and this would be why our rape culture is taking on a much more dominant role in our society and seeing judges blatantly walking away from sentencing a 40 something yr old man raping a 13 yr old girl, blaming the girl, even after she committed suicide.

we cannot be unaffected. as individuals. or as a people. as a whole.

[ismnotwasm]

39. I get you.

It has a bit to do with privilege and unawareness. Shock videos from the Congo is going to repulse most who bother to watch it. The sorrier state Of affairs is most developed nations people won't care, or know. We just had that huge argument on privilege. And there were so many who just didn't see it.

The sexual element is more horrific when one takes that into account.

[seabeyond]

41. another point. another question. how do you know? how do you know MOST people will be repulsed in

a nation where rape porn is THE most popular genre. when rape is in the favorite movies. when rape is in the favorite tv shows.

how do you know that most people will be repulsed? isnt that a bit pollyanna in hope that most people will be repulsed by rape of our girls?

there were duers on that thread with a girl getting a rifle shoved up her saying.... that wasnt so awfully bad. expected much worse.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. I agree with you, BainsBane...

I had the same reaction as you about the hides, and also haven't yet watched the video. While I'm a visual person and something visual can get its message home to me more powerfully than even 2,000 words describing it, I don't think I'm emotionally strong enough at the moment to sit through it. Plus I don't think I'm part of the target audience of people who thanks to the media don't take notice of something if it happens in Africa and are too fixated on their own patch of turf to register that terrible, horrific things are happening in the DRC...

I got what the intent of the film-makers was, though, and I suspect that the vast majority of people who watched it would have reacted with horror and want to find out about what's going on in the DRC and see what they can do to help stop it. I'm aware from reading those threads that while most DUers who posted had that exact reaction, that wasn't the case for everyone...

Uppityperson posted an OP in GD that's a good starting point for finding about more information and what we can do to help.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024619365

Amnesty International also has information. I'm a member and for anyone wanting to do something, no matter how small, joining AI is a good thing to do....

Violence against women and girls

Women and girls bore the horrific cost of intensified hostilities and were widely subjected to rape and other forms of sexual violence committed both by the FARDC and armed groups. Women and girls at particular risk were those in villages targeted for looting and intimidation operations by armed groups and the national army, as well as those living in camps for displaced people, who often had to walk long distances to reach their fields.

•Between April and May, M23 combatants reportedly raped several dozen girls and women in the Jomba area in Rutshuru territory in North Kivu, where the M23 established its base. Most of those attacked had been displaced by the conflict.

Sexual violence was more pervasive where the national army lived alongside the population.

•In late November, the UN reported that the FARDC were responsible for at least 126 cases of rape within a few days in Minova where the national army had retreated after the fall of Goma on 20 November.

Elsewhere in the country, members of the national police and other security forces continued to commit acts of rape and sexual violence.

Rape survivors were stigmatized by their communities, and did not receive adequate support or assistance.

Impunity

Impunity continued to fuel further human rights abuses. Efforts by judicial authorities to increase the capacity of the courts to deal with cases, including cases involving human rights abuses, had only limited success; many older cases did not progress. The Ministry of Justice’s initiatives in 2011 to address impunity for past and current crimes under international law were stalled and victims continued to be denied access to truth, justice and reparations. Court rulings were not implemented and key cases, such as the Walikale and the Bushani and Kalambahiro mass rapes of 2010 and 2011, progressed no further.


Although the Ministry of Justice and Human Rights asked the civil and military judicial authorities in February to open investigations into allegations of electoral violence, there was little evidence of any progress in the investigations during the year.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/democratic-republic-congo/report-2013#section-37-4

[Tuesday Afternoon]

43. OK. I am weird and maybe because of my medical background.

I thought the video was extremely well done from an artistic standpoint. The camera angles and the way it was edited was very good.

and ...

the most effective, bring it home, point for me was the little girl running away, only to cut to the field of men on the other side of the tree break. The implication of what could happen next is what blew me away.

The fact that this "happened" to a wealthy, white family added nothing in the way of distress for me.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. As a society we have become desensitized. It really is that simple. sea.

Also, the fact that they made the video about white upper middle class family to drive home the message is exactly the group that has become the most desensitized. In order to make that group understand exactly what is happening in The Congo the film makers had to make it about "what if" it happened to Your Family.

Having said that, I did not feel like the violence shown was gratuitous or exploitative. The shots did not linger on the action, just brushed by and away and cut to ... long enough ... for one to realize OMG this is really happening.

That it was shown on DU and that is where you happen to see it means not really anything.

Had you seen it on FB, would you be mad at FB?

Also, this cheering you are talking about. I do not think people were cheering the violence.

They were cheering the awareness that had occurred within themselves about what is really taking place in The Congo.

Please, don't tell me there were actually some on here cheering The Violence.

Awareness happens.

[JustAnotherGen]

53. I saw the landing page

Screen shot, the subject, and I trashed the thread. I've learned that not everyone can see what I see. .