"Feminists are not responsible for educating men"

[redqueen]

I would say that "Feminists are not responsible for educating anyone" ... but then when women approach feminists for for information, you can safely assume they're not doing it with the intention of arguing and debating and 'devil's advocating' everything you say.

As a vocal feminist with many intelligent, lovely male friends, I’m often met with indignance when I choose not to engage with them about feminism. Surely if I really cared about changing our culture of discrimination and inequality, I should be trying to educate men? Isn’t that an activist’s job? Shouldn’t feminists be grateful when men want to bounce questions off us, because it shows that they are at least trying to understand?

It’s both exhausting and diversionary being expected to hash out the basics with men who haven’t bothered to think about their own privilege before. Men are not entitled to expect feminists to educate them. Real change will only happen when men accept that the burden of education is on them, not on women.

...

To borrow the analogy of another woman:

It’s as if you have walked into a postgraduate mathematics seminar, yelling
“Hey, how can you even use imaginary numbers anyway if they’re not real?”
When someone rather distractedly points you to a first-year text-book in the corner, you leaf through the first couple of pages half-heartedly for a few seconds and say
“I don’t agree with some of the definitions in here – and anyway you haven’t answered my question. Doesn’t anyone want to have a discussion with me?!!”

This incredulity is usually delivered with a sound telling-off for being sarcastic, unreasonable, illogical, ungrateful and bitter. Now, as a woman raised under patriarchy I am socialised to respond to men’s praise and approval. Having suffered the consequences of men’s disapproval, conflict is counter-intuitive to me. It’s tempting to give in to the desire to be recognised as a “good” feminist who takes the time to explain things in a polite, fun, sassy way. But here’s the kicker: polite feminism not only doesn’t work, it is actually self-defeating.

...

http://cwinterfox.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/feminists-are-not-responsible-for-educating-men/

[DURHAM D]

1. Please send this to the admin. nt

[seabeyond]

2. +1. that was my immediate thought. and all while i was reading thru. only to see...

first comment, from you, stating the same thought i had.

how about that.

[redqueen]

3. !

[ismnotwasm]

11. Heh!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

103. please?

You are all too nice around here.

[BlueJazz]

4. I've learned quite a lot from Feminists. I (don't believe) I was ever anti-woman or ....

...anti-strong woman but I HAVE changed my views over the years about the relationship between men and women.

I still joke about it in my signature line though.

[redqueen]

5. LOL...

Careful now, the MRAs are liable to use that as evidence to reinforce their persecution complexes.

[mercuryblues]

6. It also

always seems like dealing with the lowest common denominator. Same questions over and over.

By telling women they have to educate men, is basically saying men aren't smart enough to learn on their own. Which is why there is hardly ever informed questions but DOORS....

[calimary]

13. By telling women they have to educate men - it's just foisting off more work onto women.

And how long has THAT been going on?

More work for women. Sigh...

After we get finished cleaning, cooking, washing, picking up after the piggy people we live with, herding children, babysitting and diapering, teaching them everything from potty-training to manners and other civilizing habits, driving the carpool, going to the teachers' meetings, going to the principal's office, working in the Mother's Club meetings or PTA or whatever, trying to be active at their school, trying to be active at the church, and that's just in the home. When she's juggling a job, too, there's a whole 'nother level of workload piled onto the shoulders of women. Whether we're secretaries or CEOs, the manager or the cleaning lady.

I would like to know what actually might NOT be our share of the workload for a change. Since the division of labor for women versus men always and forever seems to break down to a ratio of about 90/10. WHEN do the men start stepping up? I keep reminding the young men around me (quite a few of them because of my son's band) - as I consider them boy-by-boy, each of them has grown up with a mom who works. Their own, and now, when they're around our house on band matters - ME. Several of them have female sibs - they're out working and trying to make ends meet, too. I hope they have absorbed some of that. But in this day and age, they actually have pals who were idiots in the bedroom, and now find themselves with a girlfriend who has a bun in the oven. And I don't know HOW OFTEN I personally have preached to them about loving carefully, wearing the "love glove," using condoms, being cautions (NOT ONE OF YOU IS ENTITLED TO MAKE ME A GRANDMOTHER YET, DO YOU HEAR ME????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?) One of 'em actually believed that if he used protection most of the time, it'd be okay. And he could plan ahead and finish school and get a better job in the industry he dreamed about and ... Well, now he's stuck. His whole life - which had been his own - is now redirected and dictated by that ONE fun little unprotected quickie he had, which - um - sprouted. In THIS day and age. With all the preaching we and other mothers have done, and supposedly all the sex education they've all (supposedly) had... That news was VERY sobering to the rest of the boys, believe me. Maybe they're teaching each other (well, MAYBE, although I wouldn't bet my house on it)...

Men...

[mercuryblues]

24. Explaining

every little thing we do or ask.

Why it is important that you pick up your wet towel off the floor. Why I am making you eat your vegetables. Why you can't go camping, why I want you to get good grades, why this why that. Now we are expected to explain why women need BC, why The HL decision is atrocious why equal pay matters, why this why that. They should fucking know this by now. It might not be so bad if you said it once, but is over and over again.

To define rape culture you have to actually define rape first. You will always get the "If we are both drunk are we raping each other?" reply. If it was a one -off, eh. But every single fucking time. So please ladies, drop everything and explain this or that, so a week from now they can ask the exact same thing again. After some back and forth, you will always get, that is bad, but I still don't believe you. They can not understand why certain words or phrases used are misogynic and continue using them, then whine when they are dismissed out of hand when using them. Guess what been there, explained that, know where this is going and I ain't wasting my time on you.

It is just like talking to a teabagger. Obama said xyz. No, show the video of what he actually said was the opposite of xyz. Teabagger will always respond...Well he really meant to say xyz, that was what he was really thinking. I don't play that game anymore either.

[seabeyond]

127. your comment about the DOORS was gold. that says it all. the willful ignorance even when given a

definition of benevolent sexism and many more examples. da doors. how many times in the months ahead of the conversation did these men, that are feminists... ya right, use da doors.

[seabeyond]

126. i am going upstairs and talk to my teen boys. not about the condoms. their father is very

responsible and taught them well. they get it. but....

After we get finished cleaning, cooking, washing, picking up after the piggy people we live with, herding children, babysitting and diapering, teaching them everything from potty-training to manners and other civilizing habits, driving the carpool, going to the teachers' meetings, going to the principal's office, working in the Mother's Club meetings or PTA or whatever, ...

this. this is where as a family, i think we have totally, i am fearful, failed the boys and by extension the women in their future. i hope not. but, being a stay at home, i really took alllll of that on, and i am afraid it is a lesson they internally process even though the words said out loud are different.

[calimary]

131. That's a VERY good point. How is the division of labor in most people's houses?

Does dad help with the diapering? How 'bout the projectile vomiting? Does dad do the laundry sometimes? My husband did, and does, along with readily complaining about people who don't pick their socks up or leaving a wet load in the washing machine for a whole day - tying it up so nobody else can use it for their laundry until they deal with that load one of YOU left unfinished? My husband has his share of "nagging wife" moments. And I actually appreciate that!

I never cook (outside of the big Thanksgiving dinner thing). Just never got around to it. I can BAKE - like there's no tomorrow! But nobody around our house wants or needs to eat much of that kind of thing since we're all battling weight issues all the time. So I almost never cook. Spousal-Unit is a rather gifted chef so he tends to be the dinner cooker. And it's kinda nice that this is what our kids grew up with. Today, our son is quite the gifted chef, too. He's usually the one who sets up the barbecue and cooks for the rest of the boys when they're here. I am hopeful that the more our boys and young men grow up having seen their mom work or leave the house for her job, and HOPEFULLY more men doing the home-related chores, the more "liberated" some of them will be as they reach adulthood. There really needs to be a shift in the national zeitgeist about this. I hope with the Millennials that's what we're seeing now. Our daughter's boyfriend seems to be fairly liberated in that way, too - which I find very gratifying.

[Android3.14]

7. I can understand why someone might feel that way

The smug expression of frustrated victimhood does help allow a feminist to blame a non-feminist for their obnoxious attitude and it exonerates the victim from taking any action to correct the problem of gender inequality.
But then I ask myself, should non-doctors educate themselves to become surgeons?
Should only climate deniers educate themselves?
Should only Birthers educate themselves?
That's worked out so well, hasn't it? (Hint - the answer is the opposite of "yes&quot
And after asking myself these questions, I noticed it only takes about three seconds to realize that being a feminist has never meant someone has a corner on the market for common sense.
If we feminists abandon the responsibility to educate the ignorant, then how can we complain when an ignorant person supports continued inequality?

[uberblonde]

9. There are these things called books...

That any man who was truly interested in the subject could read. In fact, that's the most appropriate thing a man could ask a feminist: "Hey, what's a good book I should read?"

Why should someone who is deeply informed about any issue try to formulate a capsule version to someone who isn't interested enough to pick up a book? Far too often, these "discussions" are really for the purpose of starting an argument along the lines of "Most men aren't like that!" and "I'm a nice guy, I love women!"

How do you present systemic oppression to those who see it as a personal bias?

[Android3.14]

29. "Why should someone who is deeply informed about any issue try to formulate a capsule version..."

Perhaps to promote the goals of feminism? Just a stab in the dark.

[Luminous Animal]

28. Is it the responsibility of people of color to educate white people about racism?

I don't think so.

When I belonged to an activist women's organization, the women of color in that group had at it with the "well-meaning" racial blinders of many of the white women in the group and the hours long often painful discussions pointing out the racism in both proposed literature and actions.

They announced the formation of a Women of Color Caucus by hanging a banner off the balcony of the meeting room that said, "Women of color feminists are not obligated to teach white feminists about their racism."

Made sense to me but plenty of white feminists were hurt and some downright angry.

[seabeyond]

128. a step further, i have an example personally with our gay community. but, when women of color do

speak out at the racism and inherent privilege, i KNOW it behooves me to shut the fuck up and listen. think. listen some more and process before i say anything.

mostly it is .... you are right

does anything need to be said after that ?

[CTyankee]

8. Excellent post, redqueen!

[ismnotwasm]

10. I'll educate my grand kids

3 girls and 3 boys. To a point. If they learn how to think-- which is my fondest wish for them, feminism will make sense. If they just accept whatever tripe they get handed, it won't.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. Seems to me that there are a lot of eerie parallels in other realms of discussion.

Like trying to "educate" someone about climate change or evolution, or trying to explain that we are NOT in a post-racist culture.

They always want to play devil's advocate based on their ignorant suppositions concerning the topic. OMG, last winter set a record for cold weather. Doesn't that prove it's really global COOLING? We elected a black President. Who needs Affirmative Action?

The whole process seems to be a set of rather primitive defense mechanisms put in place to protect the defendee from uncomfortable realities.

If I were the Devil, I'd be looking for a better class of advocate.

[Township75]

14. HHS author sounds like someone who sucks at persuasion so tries to blame others for her lack of

Skills.

If she can't handle thhe job she needs to step out of the way and those can do it. Changing the culture of discrimination takes work not whining.

[redqueen]

16. The "job"? What job are you referring to? nt

[BainsBane]

65. The job of being a woman, of course

of spending one's life in service to men.

[redqueen]

95. Goddess, no shit, right?

Ugh

[seabeyond]

100. Ha. With both of you... Nt

[Squinch]

33. Let me guess. You are not female.

Let me guess something else: you missed the part about listening.

[ismnotwasm]

17. I understand what you are saying

But part of the point is that men are dominant, they are heads of most corporations, most countries, are the largest part of any political process. In short, they drive the policies of the world in the aggregate.

Feminist enact change by activism, programs, lobbying-- which men are encouraged to join--not educating individuals, who are smart enough to figure it out.

[Squinch]

34. The fact that you are an "address the whole problem kind of guy" is not really germaine. The

need of some men to stop all discussion so they can be educated at the moment they want to be educated, or so that they can have all their reservations addressed at the moment they want their reservations addressed, is not really all that important to the larger picture either.

[Squinch]

44. Political will and personal interaction, though related, are two different things. And as I have

said further down thread, there are different ways to teach things.

The problem being described here is a problem of personal interaction which is the problem of entitlement. It is the problem of those men - and they are always men - who think they are trying to be helpful and who do not recognize that they are the holders of the very entitlement that creates inequality in their personal interactions with women. When they come into these conversations and demand to be attended to, they are embodying that entitlement.

If, when these demands are made, feminists (male or female) stop the discussion to indulge these men's need for immediate attention, when they indulge these men's entitlement, they are teaching these men that the entitlement is a legitimate thing.

It would be a much better "teaching moment" if, when these demands are made, feminists (male or female) continue their discussion and require the entitled ones to respect the fact that the discussion is not going to be made all about the entitled ones.

The way to teach a child that they cannot always be the center of attention is to require that they not interrupt, and to not attend to their demands when those demands are rude. This behavior, where a man demands that an ongoing conversation stops so his needs can be attended to, is exactly the same as that child's behavior. The same teaching method should be used as is used with the child.

The only effective way to make someone stop being entitled is to stop indulging the entitlement.

[redqueen]

46. "The only effective way to make someone stop being entitled is to stop indulging the entitlement."

[BainsBane]

87. Yeah, and the older and ornerier I get

The easier that is to do.

[redqueen]

18. What you don't seem to have picked up on

is the contempt and entitlement demonstrated when a person, one who is fully capable of seeking out information, instead chooses to derail and disrupt feminist discussions.

It is amusing that you bring up republicans. (The stuff about educating children, however, is pure nonsense.) You are aware that if they come here and play 'devil's advocate' and disrupt and derail, they will be banned, right? Do you think that's a bad thing?

There are PLENTY of feminists working to educate people. That these 'well meaning' seekers of education choose to ignore those women in favor of barging into feminist groups and discussions speaks volumes.

We aren't discussing this issue in a vacuum. There is context here that *every* feminist understands.

[Squinch]

35. I think you need to read the article again.

[Fearless]

19. Everyone must play a role.

[prairierose]

20. I am always telling my students that...

their education is their responsibility. I can lead you to the information you should know but you are the one who must ask intelligent questions and assimilate the information. I can not do that for you.

It is the same with any important idea. We must each care enough about learning and understanding to assimilate the ideas ourselves or we never will.

Unfortunately, in our culture today, when it comes to those important ideas whether it is women's issues, civil rights, racism, or climate change, there is nothing that forces people to think about these topics enough to understand them, let alone assimilate anything about them. Once upon a time, when we had a working government, it was government, Congress, making laws or directing agencies to make regulations that forced citizens to face important issues and think about them. Then the clowns took over and thinking slowed and has stopped on many levels. People are no longer forced to face their unacceptable behavior let alone change it.

[PatrickforO]

21. Hmm. I hear what you are saying, I really do.

It can get very tiresome, this 'hashing over the basics.' Yet, failure to do so creates a vacuum and nature abhors vacuums. Consider the New Deal and the War on Poverty. These worked because FDR and LBJ both knew how to message them.

In a world of integrity, we could count on third parties, such as the media, giving feminism, populism, environmentalism and so on a fair reporting. Unfortunately, we do not live in a world of integrity. We live in a world of Limbaugh and a host of other mouthpieces that make lots of money singing the corporate propaganda tune. It was a certain failed Austrian artist who said, "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it."

Moneyed interests fight patiently, consistently and inexorably for that additional few pennies in profit; they take a little bites out of morality, justice, mercy, kindness and common sense in a thousand different places. It never stops, because the disease of greed never stops.

Do you get tired of it? So do I! But here's a story. I received a political polling telephone call the other evening and it was sponsored by a super PAC promoting Cory Gardner in his Senate race against Udall. As the lady asked her questions, I elaborated my answers. When the question came, "Do you want heating costs for homes to go up $X because of Udall's vote on increased environmental regulations?" I told the woman that was 'Koch brothers bullshit,' and went on to tell her there have already been over 300 fracking spills here in Colorado. I also told her that Cory Gardner is my representative and he sponsored a bill which the Republican controlled House passed in December of 2013 that passes the risk of financial liability for cleanup of toxic spills directly onto taxpayers while allowing the corporations who make the spills to 'self-regulate' and determine their own financial liability, if any. The bill actually says 'if any!'

I went on to explain to her that we need to look at what these people DO, not what they SAY, and always ask the question, "How will this law, policy, regulation, deregulation, whatever, actually HELP the American people. Because that's the real test between a politician and a statesman/woman, isn't it? The stateswoman thinks about future generations, and the politician about the next election.

The result, she began talking to me and I believe in this next election, she may vote more thoughtfully.

So was it worth it? I don't know. How much is one extra vote on the side of good worth? Right now, women make something like $0.76 per dollar men earn. Right now, women are in danger of a bunch of old white guys dictating whether they can or cannot use contraceptives and whether they will have abortion services available if needed. Already, the right-wing Supreme Court has chipped away at their reproductive rights. Two ex governors from Colorado have done a propaganda commercial together about how good fracking is for Colorado, when the real truth is that fracking is mostly good for increasing profits for big oil companies. What we get is flammable water if they are not careful, and the oil & gas industry fights tooth and nail with big money against any regulation any time. Always.

So, yeah, I get tired of educating people, but since I know the consequences of not doing it, I simply sigh and begin the education process yet again. Since I have a counseling background and do professional development coursework for career development professionals, I will tell you what I tell them: You have chosen a field that can sometimes be thankless, and will always be challenging. But you must remember that you have to always try. Never give up, because something you say or do can literally make the difference between life or death for another human being. Never forget that you turn lives around with your words.

[Half-Century Man]

22. Another facet of the gem that is sexual equality that should be considered.

Inequality has to be vocalized and exemplified. Who is being repressed? How is it happening?

A lot has been written about sexual equality over the ages. Authors have wide ranging levels of intent, bias, intelligence, and allegiances. The same with readers. As we cannot control the media consumption of others, we maybe forced, from time to time, to do impromptu education sessions.
Yes, it is a pain in the ass. The worth of the effort to do it, is usually based on a snap decision by the teacher on the worth of the student. Do your best to be a fair judge.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

23. Then you have to educate men as to why it's not your responsibility

to educate men.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

120. off topic/on a tangent but, I remember once a man (!) told me

I don't HAVE to do a damn thing but, die and pay taxes and not necessarily in that order

so you see. The *have* to .... thing .... just doesn't cut it.

I know You know but, I just had to post here because your post with the *have* reminded me about the ONLY things I *HAVE* TO DO

[A-Schwarzenegger]

121. And I'm not completely convinced about the die part.

Yeah, I was kind of coming from the pov of that fellow who might say,

"Okay, I accept that it's not your responsibility to educate me, but why again exactly isn't it sort of your responsibility to educate me? I mean, I get that you don't have to, believe me, but why precisely don't you kind of have to in a way, because isn't it your job as a feminist, well not your job per se, but your duty or principle or something to educate me, or at least explain why you don't have to so I can still be on your side and fight along with you for rights and so forth? I mean, okay, I'm not making you educate me, of course not, and I don't expect you to, but who's going to educate me if you don't? And I don't really mean me when I say 'me,' I'm talking about the guys who don't get it, which I do, of course, because I'm about as feminist as a man can get and still be a man. So, if you could just take one sec and explain why you don't have to explain, just a quick twenty words or so, thirty, fifty, hundred, whatever you feel like, not that you have to, even if I don't see fully why you don't (which I'm okay with), not for me but for that poor guy over there, okay, right on."

I love that fellow, that earnest uneducable doofus (who still lurks in a cave in the back of my head and dares to emerge just when I'm sure I have snuffed him out finally at last).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

123. lol ...

that sounds like me and my thoughts about God.

thanks for the chuckle.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

124. Excellent observation.

All through writing that I suspected I was saying something (about myself) other than what I thought I was saying (about somebody else). I'm wrestling with the ending of a piece of writing (something like wrestling with God).

[seabeyond]

129. i love you. i have a lesson in reading your posts. i am really

literal and pragmatic in my reading. you take me to a different world that i have to become more flexible. that is such a like.... trippy trip for me. so, thank you. if i had not said int he past.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

132. Love & learning back atcha, sea.

We take each other to different worlds. Wish you didn't
have so many vacations, but You always seem to use
them well, so...

[awake]

27. Can a man not be a Feminists

It seem to me that anyone of any gender can and should impart their knowledge to others. Until the view of "us vs them" is let go then conflict will continue.

[BainsBane]

42. I suppose, I think of them more as allies

Like I am an ally to LGBT folks. But if they want to call themselves feminists, I don't have a problem with it. What bothers me is when some insist only they know what real feminism is, insist women like me aren't really feminists because we don't follow their command about what we are allowed to speak and care about. Those are not feminists. In fact, they are the opposite. If someone can't respect women's rights to determine what issues matter, they don't count even as an ally. I've met a lot of men like that around here. In fact, I'm pretty sure the feminist label is nothing but a rhetorical device they use to attack women because it turns out there is not a single issue that they think matters--including the Hobby Lobby decision--other than women making themselves more asexually vailable to them. Some of those same men even insist they should be able to compel a woman to have an abortion. They are keen on abortion, but not so keen on a woman's right to make her own reproductive choices. In other words, their concern is that men continue to wield control over women, and there is no definition of feminism that fits under.

[BainsBane]

43. There is a lot avaialble to read online and in publication

No woman has a responsibility to spoon feed you or any other man because he doesn't feel like reading, no more than a theoretical mathematician has a responsibility to teach me basic algebra. Of course, there is also the radical approach of simply listening and trying to learn that way rather than making the conversation about them.

[awake]

50. No one is asking to be spoon feed

I am trying to point out that until we all begin to dissolve conditioned gender roles and start viewing the need to promote the goals of feminism and how it will help all of society, we will be caught in the unending aggression of pitting "us vs them".

From wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending a state of equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women."

I do not see any where that only woman should be working to accomplish the desired results of Feminism.
In my mind the goal of Feminism is for all woman and men to not just be equal to to be seen as being equal.
To accomplish this then men as well as women will need to learn and grow quite a bit.

I do not feel that promoting one gender over another (even thou in many ways woman are better than men) will help to accomplish the outcome we are striving for.

[BainsBane]

51. There is a basic fact

When one group is subordinated, it is not their responsibility to look after the interests of the dominant group.

if you believe feminists are promoting women over men, you most certainly are not a feminist or an ally. Moreover, that kind of stuff doesn't not belong in HOF.

That is about the kindest thing I can say at this point.

[awake]

53. If anything I have post here gave you the idea that I believe

that "feminists are promoting women over men" then my intent has been misunderstood. I am promoting the idea that we need to promote the goals to feminism to all genders not just woman.

[BainsBane]

55. feminism is a movement for women's rights

That is it's purpose and goal. Now, there are different strains of feminism. Radical feminism, for example, seeks the destruction of the patriarchy and gender conventions over all. So in that sense it does what you suggest.

Liberal feminism focuses on legal rights and more gradual reforms.

If you mean to say all people should be involved in working toward that equality, I agree. All, however, are not, and in fact many--men but also some women--are hostile to it. Every single regular poster in this group has experienced that hostility with some frequency.
Sometimes we have conversations with a broader audience in mind and sometimes we like to talk among ourselves (which is why we have this group). I have never thought of among ourselves to mean women only, since some of the regular posters in this group are men. What distinguishes them from some is that they are fully supportive of feminism and women's rights to engage in the issues they care about.

You might be interested in a site called feminism 101. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

[Android3.14]

30. Odd how some people think that all women are feminists and no men are

Seems like the kettle needs to learn what it means to be a feminist, before claiming expertise over the pot.

[Luminous Animal]

37. A man is not a feminist if he has to ask a feminist to explain feminism to him.

[Luminous Animal]

41. Somehow he just falls into feminism? Or born from the head of Athena unsullied by human society.

Last edited Mon Jul 21, 2014, 05:09 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't buy it.

[seabeyond]

57. if a man calls himself a feminist i am not gonna argue. i have been burned too often by the "male

feminist" though. piss them off because we dare to not agree with them on womens issues and that male feminist then resorts to spewing his fantasy rape porn in the most vulgar, denigrating, violent language to put women in their place.

i am always interested in the poster that is a duer for years and years, low count, and very little activity, but comes into hof to challenge. we get that much more often then statistics would suggest, i would imagine.

i looked, noticed, because i was going to welcome you as a new member. but, i see you are not new at all.

[Squinch]

45. I am OK with a man asking me what feminism is. I am not OK with a man derailing

a conversation among feminists so that all must stop talking to each other to answer his basic questions about feminism.

A silly example, admittedly, but I don't follow football. If I came upon two people talking about the makeup of teams and their odds of making it to the super bowl, I wouldn't elbow my way into their conversation and ask them what it means when the ref makes a particular signal. I wouldn't do that because the idea that it is their responsibility to stop their conversation and explain that to me would be ridiculous, and childish, and astonishingly rude.

[BainsBane]

52. Or make that conversation and every other about him

which is what we see here. Now we learn the problem is that feminists don't fight for the rights of men. Where have we heard that before?

[Squinch]

54. I have learned in this thread that we aren't doing everything at once, and therefore our actions are

not valid.

Seriously, where do they get this shit?

[hlthe2b]

82. Civility, please. This is a sanctuary group for feminists and this post is a clear attack on

another in the thread. I'd urge you to pull back and consider editing this and an earlier thread upstream. Hosts will enforce civil discussion.

[Squinch]

84. .

[Kali]

92. good analogy

[intaglio]

31. But men don't seem to have any problems

... explaining things to women. All they do is treat the woman like an idiot and ignore what she tells them

[awake]

32. Nice lets now call "Men" names while we are at it

Like this train is going to get any of us where we want to go

[seabeyond]

56. i read three times. i cannot find one time "men" were called a name.

[awake]

58. It was a sarcastic comment about the post above it

where it was said "All they do is treat the woman like an idiot and ignore what she tells them" referring to men. So I felt saying that "Men" treat woman as idiots was just a step away from calling them names. I felt that it did add anything that help the discussion. Now you may feel that this train of thought will move the issue forward, for myself I find in a side track to how men should be educated about the issue of feminism.

[DURHAM D]

59. "should be educated" ???

Perhaps you should read the OP.

[awake]

60. Oh is it better that men should NOT be educated

I am truly sorry if my comments here offended anyone, it was not my intent to do so.

[DURHAM D]

61. Feminism has been a topic of discussion for parts of 6 decades.

IMO anyone who claims ignorance has simply made a willful decision to ignore sexism. Or perhaps you have just decided to "have some fun" with the wymen.

Done.

[awake]

62. 6 decades? try since the 1800s

I guess we always can learn something new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
The words "feminism" and "feminist" first appeared in France and the Netherlands in 1872, Great Britain in the 1890s, and the United States in 1910, and the Oxford English Dictionary lists 1894 as the year of the first appearance of "feminist" and 1895 for "feminism". Depending on historical moment, culture and country, feminists around the world have had different causes and goals. Most western feminist historians assert that all movements that work to obtain women's rights should be considered feminist movements, even when they did not (or do not) apply the term to themselves. Other historians assert that the term should be limited to the modern feminist movement and its descendants. Those historians use the label "protofeminist" to describe earlier movements.

The history of the modern western feminist movements is divided into three "waves". Each wave dealt with different aspects of the same feminist issues. The first wave comprised women's suffrage movements of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, promoting women's right to vote. The second wave was associated with the ideas and actions of the women's liberation movement beginning in the 1960s. The second wave campaigned for legal and social equality for women. The third wave is a continuation of, and a reaction to, the perceived failures of second-wave feminism, beginning in the 1990s.

[DURHAM D]

63. The six decades was a reference to what I assumed to be your

life span and I am pretty sure you could not have been engaged in an on-going topic of conversation in earlier centuries.

[awake]

68. FYI my 1st "teach in" on feminism happened at collage in 1970

so that would be about 4 decades but I do try and learn something new everyday, I am not yet too old to discover new things.

[Squinch]

36. The responses in this thread include very good examples of just what the article is talking about.

I think there are different ways of teaching. The article is exactly right when it says that men who come into these conversations and demand that their desire for information and reassurance be treated as the first priority do need to be taught that they are trying to exercise inappropriate entitlement.

If we are trying to teach that we do not want to be expected to satisfy the entitled demands by men on our time and energy, the best way to do that is not to satisfy the entitled demands on our time and energy.

[BainsBane]

64. WTF are you talkiing about?

No one said male entitlement was the only kind. Is it possible you missed the hundreds of threads about privilege? No one said anything about silver bullets.

People who are willing to learn LISTEN and read. If someone can't acknowledge the basic reality of gender as an axis of analysis and privilege, he has no business entering an feminist group with an SOP he clearly does not support.

If you want me to teach you, I expect a salary. In the meantime, go to the library. This group does not exist to assuage your ego.

The principal advantage of this particular time period is that women are able to support ourselves and no longer have to put up with any men we don't want to. I stopped coddling male egos when I got divorced some time ago. I sure as hell am not going to do it in a feminist group. I nor anyone else here owes you one thing, not even the time of day.

[DURHAM D]

66. Sing out Sister !

[BainsBane]

70. Are yous seriously claiming that I can't keep up

After having a fit about the mention of male entitlement? Do you have any idea where you are?

[BainsBane]

74. The reason I said "WTF are you talking about"

is because you don't know what you are talking about. You lump every injustice on earth into a discussion of feminism and natter on about corporate power. That is not the subject of this discussion. The privilege on display here is male, not corporate America's.
This isn't meant to be a fix all for every problem known to the human race. We are talking about a specific topic that evidently is so unacceptable to you that you insist on diverting the discussion to be about you and what you insist matters. Nothing better exemplifies the very point the author is making that your own behavior in this group.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

76. Somebody might give this character

the only edumecation he's gonna understand.

[BainsBane]

77. I hope so

He seems to have suddenly awoken from a deep slumber, only to make a beeline for HOF.

[DURHAM D]

78. Well...

He has shared his wonderfulness in another group -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218141702

Enjoy

[BainsBane]

79. Looks like it went over better there

When I clicked on the link, I expected to see a different group.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

93. lol

hilarious.

thanks for sharing that.

[DURHAM D]

71. What you owe is respect to this group. nt

[BainsBane]

75. You are a visitor

A visitor who clearly does not support the SOP of the group. The least you could do is behave respectfully.

[hlthe2b]

83. Veilex, as in my post to you upstream, I suspect you do not realize that this is a safe haven group

with a specific SOP that must be adhered to. One can discuss difference of opinions, surely, but the snark and incivility that is often allowed in GD--is not here.

Here is the SOP for your review: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12553074

Please engage with respectful, collegial interaction or move along.

[Veilex]

86. "I suspect you do not realize that this is a safe haven group"- Admittedly I did not...

So I'll remove my comments since they've been deemed inappropriate for this thread (which I guess is a group which had a featured thread on the main page). Clearly I have disagreements with a number of individuals here...and I think they are based on miscommunication...but its moot.

More to the point, there's enough hate and discontent in the world without causing more... and my presence is clearly doing that, which was never my intent.

My apologies to everyone.

[Squinch]

90. That was not hate. That was annoyance.

[Veilex]

97. Call it what you will...

I had no intent to be disruptive and sincerely apologize.

[Squinch]

81. It's as if we ordered this one up to illustrate what the OP is talking about. We must be magic!

[knownow]

80. I agree

People must learn it for themselves. Asking someone to explain their life might be considered rude. It doesn't take a lot of effort to ASK WOMEN YOU ALREADY KNOW, instead of pestering people. My mom was a good source.

[AndyTiedye]

88. If That is Not the Role of Feminists, Then What Is?

The men (and women) who do not need to be educated are feminists already.

[BainsBane]

89. Securing our rights

Living our own lives as we see fit. Men who want to learn listen and read, and don't seek to make a discussion about women's rights all about themselves. If they do, they aren't worth my time. As a member above noted, the best way to discourage privilege is to quit indulging it.

[AndyTiedye]

99. Still Need to Educate People

Securing our rights
Living our own lives as we see fit.

How do we do that without educating the people who are voting for the people who are taking them away?

Men who want to learn listen and read

Still sounds like feminists doing the educating. Presumably they wrote the books you want them to read.

and don't seek to make a discussion about women's rights all about themselves. If they do, they aren't worth my time.

Of course it is pointless to feed the trolls.

[Squinch]

94. Where was it that you learned not to treat men like a second class? Did you learn that by requiring

them to explain to you why they deserved to be treated with respect?

Me either.

[Squinch]

96. And PS: Think about doing that. Think about saying to a man, "I require that you explain to me

why I ought to treat you like an equal." Isn't that statement itself astonishingly disrespectful?

If the man then said, "I think you should respect me because x..." wouldn't you then know that he does not feel that respect is something that he deserves? The very fact of responding to such a disrespectful question screams acceptance of that disrespect.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

91. speaking for myself ... I am also NOT responsible for educating women either. n/t

[edgineered]

101. Whew!! Too much stupid is tough on the eyes. haha nt

[qazplm]

102. eh, from my pov

it's the responsibility of all humans to try and help other humans, with knowledge, or understanding, or education.

So we all have a "job" of trying to better the world, and since most of us aren't going to write a book, or run for office, that usually boils down to human and interpersonal interactions, one on one, and it usually doesn't involve speaking to the choir.

That conversation that you thought was a waste of time and didn't get through, sometimes percolates, and resonates, and then bears fruit without you ever knowing it.

"real change" happens slowly and incrementally and, often, in person to person interactions that slowly change perceptions.
The idea that "real men" must prove themselves before that interaction doesn't make any sense to me. If someone is engaging you on a subject, then there's at least some element of openness there, even if they seem antagonistic or unopen.

[Sheldon Cooper]

104. And this is where you're wrong:

If someone is engaging you on a subject, then there's at least some element of openness there, even if they seem antagonistic or unopen.

No, when there is antagonism, there is no element of openness. There is hostility and attempts at dominance, and I wish you would trust women to know when we're being played, and when someone is genuine. We have seen and heard it all before, despite how clever some of these men think they're being.

When someone is truly open to learning, they seek out information, on their own. With the advent of the internet, there is simply no excuse for someone who genuinely wants to learn - the information is out there. To demand that women stop their conversation to attend to him, often with demands for rudimentary feminist thought, is the height of arrogance and privilege.

[qazplm]

105. not remotely true

I have direct experience that says 180 degrees otherwise. I have anecdotal evidence that says 180 degrees otherwise. Common sense and logic say 180 degrees otherwise as does a basic understanding of how people make big changes in their life.

As to that last bit, that means they usually start by engaging others aggressively, but nevertheless engaging, then they move slowly towards a new paradigm.

This has nothing to do with "trusting women" because this is a human thing that cuts across all issues, not simply in this one narrow area.
People don't make paradigm shifts on their own, and they don't make paradigm shifts all at once.

Folks who never make paradigm shifts often don't engage those who think differently at all. It's a waste of time.

Your approach is both narrow, and contrary to human nature. It has nothing to do with arrogance of privilege. It has to do with interaction and how we learn from each other.

[Sheldon Cooper]

106. Again, you completely disregard my LIVED experience, as a woman, to make whatever point

you are trying to make.

I'm white and hetero, and I haven't once gone around and demanded that POC and LGBT explain and justify themselves to me. I wouldn't use my privilege to require them to convince me of their worthiness. I read, I read some more, I think about what I've read, and try to understand. It's not that hard.

[awake]

107. "when there is antagonism, there is no element of openness...."

"...There is hostility and attempts at dominance" it seem that this statement could be said about a number of post on this thread. For a group that is a Safe Haven Group this thread appears to be hostel to any other POV than the original post. I agree with qazplm that "it's the responsibility of all humans to try and help other humans, with knowledge, or understanding, or education." I would think in a safe haven group this idea should be able to be presented with out being called out with comments about "being played" and veiled suggestions that the poster "is the height of arrogance and privilege"

[seabeyond]

108. why wouldnt it be called out as "being played" since often and continuously it is true here on du?

why would you suggest, on a subject that discusses this, in our safe haven, a place to talk about feminist issues, when presented with this opposite view, we would absolutely call it out as being played?

instead, here you are, a man, telling us that there is a problem with us, with this subject, in this safe haven, being told the opposite, that we should not call out "being played".

as if we are a problem for daring to speak up about "being played".

do you not see the irony of that?

now, i have not been in this thread much cause i am one of the "nice" ones, that continually assume that the person is sincere (sucker that i am and often allow myself to "being played&quot and often waste my time "educating" as skinner suggests we do, only to well and see the waste of time.

i personally look at it that i am not speaking to the disruptor that is trying to act all that sincere. but, the other readers of the thread that might pick up on something.

[awake]

109. Stating that maybe it is the roll for a feminist to educate a man

is not opposing feminism or this group. I for one do not want a antifeminist doing the education.
I never said that there "is a problem with us, with this subject" just that I believe that until we are able to educate men on the importance of feminism and how it is important to creating a better society, we will never accomplish the goals of feminism.

I an not sure that I would say that it is the "Responsibly" of any individual to educate a man on feminism but right now I see a lot of non-feminist attempting to do the "education" and I am not happy with the out come that I experience.

[seabeyond]

113. look at ALL the time women have wasted in this thread trying to "educate" you on educating men on

feminism. look at ALL your time and effort ignoring, not acknowledging, rejecting anything we women have said.

point proven.

not one bit of what we have said has there even been an ATTEMPT for you to listen, digest, process, understand. not one sentence from you. not one word from you. you dogmatically hold onto your point that we MUST educate men, totally ignoring all that is said to you.

i posted that i do waste my time on it and it is all ignored to dogmatically hold onto your point.

answer me. is this a waste of all of our time? cause it sure as fuck feels like a waste of my time. actually, another reason not stepping into this thread. teh two men arguing the most already proved it was a waste of time.

[DURHAM D]

122. I know you are a swimmer and probably took

Junior/Senior Lifesaving classes so you can appreciate this.

Every time one of these derailers shows up in a thread using this technique the voices in my head start shouting: BLOCK AND PARRY, BLOCK AND PARRY, BLOCK AND PARRY.

After more than a half-century of trying to save them I have just decided to let them drown.

[seabeyond]

130. you are so right on. i read this morning and spent time visualizing. to the extent

swimming toward, get seen, dive down. grab knees, turn body around keeping them above water all the while working up body to a hold. lol

that was fun. thanks durham.

[Sheldon Cooper]

110. And in a safe haven group, we should not have to constantly entertain demands that

we educate everyone about feminism. This isn't General Discussion, or Question Time, or whatever. It's where we come to get away from the bullshit that we face every other goddamn place.

The info is out there, educate yourselves. Don't demand that we do it for you.

[awake]

112. I am not asking to be "educated"

I have not demanded anything, I have commented on OP as to whether that view furthers the goals of feminism. Some of my remarks have been taken to be those of a "man" because I have a different point of view of the OP than other woman posting on this thread.
It was my understanding that this group was interested in exploring "lessons of historical and modern day feminist struggles to current issues and events that impact women" but I guess my views are really not welcome here because I feel that we do need to educate everybody in society on the importance of how feminism will improve society for all.

Good day and good luck with your approach to "issues and events that impact women"

[Sheldon Cooper]

114. I don't believe I ever said that you, specifically, were.

But many others have, quite blatantly as a matter of fact, so do not disregard my LIVED experience for your need to be theoretical. I don't know if you are a man or a woman and it's actually irrelevant. Reread the OP to get a sense of where the frustration comes from and try, TRY, to empathize, instead of offering what you think is helpful advice. You see, we have heard all this before. All of it. You're not breaking new ground here.

[seabeyond]

115. Reread the OP to get a sense of where the frustration comes from and try, TRY,

even on the very subject, one must beg.... please TRY... to understand what the point is.

ya. this poster would be the lesson on the issue of the OP.

TRY.... to digest and process the info before giving your point of view on the issue.

the point of this poster is clearly to show the woes of all others, how unwelcome they are and how unfair the women of hof are.

that seems to be the lesson he/she wants to share with us.

[Sheldon Cooper]

116. Coming through loud and clear, innit?

[awake]

117. I for the live of me can not figure out what I have said

that would lead you to think that I am promoting "woes of all others" I just feel for feminism to succeed then we need to educate everyone and I for one do not want that education to come from the people who have an interest in the status quo. Now if not educating men will accomplish you goal go for it. That is not my belief and I will continue to inform and educate anybody regardless to there gender when a situation becomes available to teach for that was how I learned.

[seabeyond]

118. so... basically, reiterating. you will NOT consider what others are saying. the point is....

i have not seen you on du educating anyone on womens issues. so, you are not there doing it, yet making the demands toward the ones doing it. you are not acknowledging what we confront on a regular basis. as a matter of fact, the very point we make, you consistently stay as far away from as possible.

simply

i do not believe you

[awake]

119. To restate I am NOT MAKING DEMANDS

If my comments appear to you as a demand that was never my intent, and yes I do understand the view of the OP and others here. I just do not share the same view, but I do not "Demand" that anyone here agrees with me nor do I expect them to.

As for "educating anyone on women's issues" I find it more productive to do it one on one face to face. I do not view my post on this thread as in any way educating anyone for I believe that the people posting here are all ready educated.

[redqueen]

111. "The idea that "real men" must prove themselves before that interaction"

Last edited Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:46 AM - Edit history (1)

Nice straw man. Nobody said anyone had to prove anything.

There's a clear difference between people who demonstrate that they're actually interested in feminism and feminist discussions and those who show up and demand to be educated as a derailing tactic.

All the responses claiming otherwise simply illustrate how few are actually paying attention to feminist discussions.

[shaayecanaan]

133. The only men who are going to care

are those that were sympathetic to feminism in the first place. Men who are indifferent will not care whether someone endeavours to educate them or not, and men who are hostile will obviously prefer not to be educated anyway.

So it does seem like more friendly fire, which is what a lot of feminist rhetoric sounds like these days.