HOF Post: 'Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity'

[freshwest]

Uploaded on Apr 23, 2011

This interview with Robert Jensen is based upon his new book Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity.

Media Mouse asks Professor Jensen a wide range of questions dealing with the impact that pornography has on men, how to analyze pornography through a media literacy lens, and what is the relationship between the anti-pornography movement and other social justice movements.

Jensen provides a detailed feminist critique of pornography.

http://mediamousearchive.wordpress.com/

http://mediamousearchive.wordpress.com/

AMAZON review of book:

In our culture, porn makes the man. So argues Robert Jensen in Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity. Jensen’s treatise begins with a simple demand: “Be a man.” It ends with a defiant response: “I chose to struggle to be a human being.” The journey from masculinity to humanity is found in the candid and intelligent exploration of porn’s devastating role in defining masculinity.

Getting Off seamlessly blends personal anecdotes from Jensen’s years as a feminist anti-pornography activist with scholarly research. In his trademark conversational style, he shows how mainstream pornography reinforces social definitions of manhood and influences men’s attitudes about women and how to treat them.

Pornography is a thriving multi-billion-dollar industry; it drives the direction of emerging media technology. Pornography also makes for complicated politics. These days, anti-porn arguments are assumed to be “anti-sex” and thus a critical debate is silenced. This book breaks that silence. Alarming and thought-provoking, Getting Off asks tough, but crucial, questions about pornography, sex, manhood, and the way toward genuine social justice.

Robert Jensen is an associate professor in the School of Journalism at the University of Texas at Austin. He is the author of The Heart of Whiteness: Confronting Race, Racism and White Privilege and Citizens of the Empire: The Struggle to Claim Our Humanity.

http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Off-Pornography-End-Masculinity/dp/089608776X

Found while looking up something for Bain, and posted along with two videos of iconic figures discussing pornography of a certain type, and the economic ramnifications.

Chris Hedges:

Noam Chomsky:

Notice: This is a post for the members of HOF and their supporters. This is not a forum, but a safe haven group created by the Admins of DU. Please respect the SOP of this safe haven.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. I will watch the video and thanks for posting it here or anywhere on DU.

Safe Haven is a misnomer to a very large extent.
Anybody can be called to jury posts in here.
I have never felt safe in here.

[freshwest]

2. True, but they can be banned from HOF if they break the SOP of the group. I understand your feeling.

Last edited Fri Aug 8, 2014, 02:43 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't respond to those who don't show respect. But some claim they don't know they are in a group, so I provided a hint of that fact. If a thread gets a lot of attention, it will go on the main index pages. But if they read the OP, they will see the warning. Gotta go, have a good night, TA.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

3. Yes, It is usually a good idea to preface an OP with HoF warning. Although, even that cuts both ways

because a HoF heading is like a beacon to some. I could go on but, you understand why I won't.

[littlemissmartypants]

4. Interesting post . Thank you. nt

[xfundy]

5. Hope this opinion isn't offensive to the group

but straight guys watching porn seem to get off to the "money shot," ie, other guys getting off/cumming.

Please DUmail me if I'm wrong--I don't follow my posts. Thx.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. Please DUmail me if I'm wrong--I don't follow my posts. Thx. (!?!)

I have heard of conceited but ... wow. That -is- conceited !!

Please DUmail me if I'm wrong--I don't follow my posts. Thx.

[theHandpuppet]

13. Not only that but I do find it offensive

Offensive and totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Do we really have to see this post every time we open this thread, especially when the poster (apparently) won't be back?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. How does one educate someone that does not sit still long enough to listen and is too

Last edited Fri Aug 8, 2014, 01:26 PM - Edit history (1)

conceited to care about anything other than confirming their own idea of what they think. I say leave the post because it proves the point about the type of person we are trying to have conversation with.

I could be wrong but, that looks like the attitude of a narcissist with ADHD.

This also further proves the point I made in post #1 in this very thread.

I would hazard to guess that this poster thinks his post is absolutely, devastatingly hilarious, too.

[mercuryblues]

15. yes feminists

stop what you are doing to educate someone through Pm's about something that has nothing to do with the OP. Their question is more important than the topic under discussion.

But I took the bait and offer this thread for you:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/125547701

Maybe I'll even pm it to you.

[freshwest]

6. Another waste of time. Enjoy yourselves until I delete the OP.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

12. Leave it up, if for no other reason than to be a burr in the side to some.

[nomorenomore08]

7. I have no problem with sexually explicit material in general.

But mainstream porn is generally anything but erotic.

[ismnotwasm]

9. This exactly

It's about as erotic as a rock. And increasingly bizarre, regarding body parts and fetishes. It also thrives off degradation

I like erotica and erotic images, I do have rules, it has to be reciprocal, it has to respect bodies, and the burden of sexuality can't be on any one gender or sexuality. I just read an interesting Urban Fantasy that includes a type of 'psion' that includes a 'sexwitch'---power fueled through sex. The author stays away from graphic language, and it's not erotica, although you'd think it would be--what I liked about this particular book is the character turned the tables and showed the person obsessed by her what it was like to be used when one is helpless. She also was clear about rape; those who took advantage of her 'need' for sex to power her ability were rapists. Interesting character

[redqueen]

16. This is off topic, but yes not all filmed sex is porn.

Porn is generally understood to show no emotional relationship between the characters. It's just sex (or abuse, or rape).

And as for the constant need to qualify every discussion criticizing porn with the mantra 'but some of it isn't so bad!' I will post this excellent commentary:

I'm pretty tired of any feminist critique of porn, in order for it to be seen as valid, the author is expected to like pornography and heartily endorse it in a disclaimer. The happy, fun, consent-filled, queer and woman-friendly stuff we see on the internet is a rarity compared to the hateful (not a strong enough word) disgusting and degrading reality that is the whole picture. Say you have a pizza, and 14 out of 16 slices are covered in broken glass and dog shit, but two slices are cheesy and perfectly delicious. If I'm reviewing it, should I have to make some statement about how great those pieces fit for human consumption were? Should I support Pope Benedicto's Dog Shit N Broken Glass Pizza Parlour because they manage to make two edible slices of pizza per pie? It not only distorts the reality of the situation, but also seriously diminishes the pain and suffering of the vast majority of human beings who've actually been through it (eaten pizza/been involved in the pornography industry.)

[freshwest]

25. 'to qualify every discussion criticizing porn with the mantra 'but some of it isn't so bad!' is the

submission demanded to post at DU. One must defend the dogma. To refuse to show one's whole hearted approval on some subjects is taboo. Members must self-censor or agree, or else. I don't blame anyone for posting that way, unconsciously, we know the score.

[redqueen]

28. Yep. Anyone who steps out of line gets branded with the simpleminded labels.

Prude. Fun police. Puritan.

And then they get hounded by the porn obsessed regulars. They get mocked, ridiculed... that club is ... yeah.

And we all get subjected to sexist images and comments on a regular basis with hardly any push back...

You should have seen the shitstorm when someone posted one of hustler's photoshop jobs, depicting a rightwing talking head (female of course) with a dick in her mouth. Some were SO FUCKING PISSED that anyone would dare call it out.

Democratic values, everybody! Free speech = you must be tolerant of misogyny.

[freshwest]

31. Anyone lurking DU and finding such will despise Democrats unless they are part of the problem.

Not Democrats, those who come to disrupt.

[redqueen]

32. Yeah, true. But some of those disruptors sure do last a good long while.

And when most on the board say nothing to contradict them, well...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

40. exactly.

[redqueen]

41. "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends"

[Tuesday Afternoon]

43. yeah, I need to think about that ...

who needs enemies with friends like that ... ?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

34. wow. Well said whomever wrote that. Kudos to them. Thanks. n/t

[redqueen]

37. These are the kinds of comments that pulled me to radical feminism.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

39. Sorry about the self delete, redqueen. Need some time to think and compose a carefully worded reply.

Thanks for understanding.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

66. I'm not sure the general public agrees with that definition.

I would call pretty much any filmed sex porn. In fact, the only filmed sex I would recognize as not being porn would be some sort of clinical, emotionless sex ed piece to demonstrate the mechanics.

I think the pizza analogy falls apart because it's not all part of a single item at a single restaurant. It's more like a row of restaurants, and one of them does divine sushi, while the rest have disease-inducing belly-bombs. So you might recommend the sushi place to your friends, but tell them to avoid the other places like the plague.

[ismnotwasm]

74. Which is why I like the term erotica

I do look at porn-- it's completely repulsive. I can't watch much, or very often, because, well it's completely repulsive and boring and insults human sexuality. The really fun thing is if I go into the detail nessisary to describe what I see, Gay or Straight porn, the post would be hidden.

That's why the porn defenders are so fucked up. I know exactly what's offered out there, are very little of it has to do with being erotic, the sexuality is racist and sexist, and it's getting more and more bizarre.

[theHandpuppet]

8. The interview with Jensen was really interesting

I think he truly articulated a lot of my own thoughts about pornography. I'd pretty much been silent on the issue, feeling that if I spoke out about it I'd be mocked on DU as some kind of prude, when my objections are actually political -- the commodification of sexuality primary among them. Listening to Jensen I feel as if my own rather unformed thoughts have been organized and validated.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. This statement =

“Be a man.” “I chose to struggle to be a human being.”

That says it all for me. Let us all choose to struggle to be Good Human Beings and be Kind to One Another.

Evolve.

[redqueen]

17. Thanks for this thread. Here are some ex-porn star testimonies:

Corina Taylor: ”When I arrived to the set I expected to do a vaginal girl boy scene. But during the scene with a male porn star, he forced himself anally into me and would not stop. I yelled at him to stop and screamed ‘No’ over and over but he would not stop. The pain became too much and I was in shock and my body went limp.”

Jenna Jameson: ”Most girls get their first experience in gonzo films – in which they’re taken to a crappy studio apartment in Mission Hills and penetrated in every hole possible by some abusive asshole who thinks her name is Bitch.”

Alexa James: ”The first shoot I did was with a man who was probably 40 and he was as thick as a soda can. He held me down and shoved it in me with no lube tearing my vagina. When I started to tear up and cry he flipped me over and continued from behind be so they wouldn’t get me crying on film. He pulled my hair and choked me over and over again even when I told him it hurt and I could barely breathe.”

Linda Lovelace: ”My initiation into prostitution was a gang rape by five men, arranged by Mr. Traynor. It was the turning point in my life. He threatened to shoot me with the pistol if I didn’t go through with it. I had never experienced anal sex before and it ripped me apart. They treated me like an inflatable plastic doll, picking me up and moving me here and there. They spread my legs this way and that, shoving their things at me and into me, they were playing musical chairs with parts of my body. I have never been so frightened and disgraced and humiliated in my life. I felt like garbage. I engaged in sex acts for pornography against my will to avoid being killed.The lives of my family were threatened.”

Andi Anderson: ”After a year or so of that so-called “glamorous” life, I sadly discovered that drugs and drinking were a part of the lifestyle. I began to drink and party out of control! Cocaine, alcohol and ecstasy were my favorites. Before long, I turned into a person I did not want to be. After doing so many hardcore scenes I couldn’t do it anymore. I just remember being in horrible situations and experiencing extreme depression and being alone and sad.”

Alexa Milano: ”My first movie I was treated very rough by 3 guys. They pounded on me, gagged me with their penises, and tossed me around like I was a ball! I was sore, hurting and could barely walk. My insides burned and hurt so badly. I could barely pee and to try to have a bowel movement was out of the question. I was hurting so bad from the physical abuse from these 3 male porn stars.”

Jessie Jewels: ”People in the porn industry are numb to real life and are like zombies walking around. The abuse that goes on in this industry is completely ridiculous. The way these young ladies are treated is totally sick and brainwashing. I left due to the trauma I experienced even though I was there only a short time.”

Genevieve: ”I had bodily fluids all over my face that had to stay on my face for ten minutes. The abuse and degradation was rough. I sweated and was in deep pain. On top of the horrifying experience, my whole body ached, and I was irritable the whole day. The director didn’t really care how I felt; he only wanted to finish the video.”

Jersey Jaxin: ”Guys punching you in the face. You have semen from many guys all over your face, in your eyes. You get ripped. Your insides can come out of you. It’s never ending.”

Elizabeth Rollings: ”I didn’t want to feel the pain of penetration from an over average sized man, being told to freeze in a position until the camera man was happy with his shots was very painful. I had peoples body fluids forced on my face or anywhere else the producer pleased and I had to accept it or else no pay. Sometimes you would get to a gig and the producer would change what the scene was supposed to be to something more intense and again if you didn’t like it, too bad, you did it or no pay.”

Lucky Starr: ”I was worried about my first anal scene for quite a few days … then the big moment arrived. It REALLY hurt! I almost quit and said, “I can’t do this”. When it was all over, I was so happy and relieved I was able to do it…”

Ashlyn Brooke: ”I honestly felt that if I had to have another strange man in my face, his hands (God knows where they’ve been all over me) him calling me his baby and having to exude some sort of forged passion for the world to see, I probably would have exploded. And what would have been stuck to the walls would have probably been nothing, just pieces of skin, bone, the brain of a robot, and what would have been left of what would have existed once as a huge and warm heart.”

Roxy: ”After only 30 movies I caught two sexually transmitted diseases. Herpes, a non-curable disease and HPV, which led to cervical cancer where I had to have half of my cervix removed. Porn destroyed my life.”

Anita Cannibal: ”Yeah, there are a lot of cover-ups going on. There is a lot of tragedy. There are a lot of horrible things.”

Tamra Toryn: ”As for myself, I ended up paying the price from working in the porn industry. In 2006, not even 9 months in, I caught a moderate form of dysplasia of the cervix (which is a form of HPV, a sexually transmitted disease) and later that day, I also found out I was pregnant. I had only 1 choice which was to abort the baby during my first month. It was extremely painful emotionally and physically. When it was all over, I cried my eyes out.”

Jessi Summers: ”I also did a scene where I was put with male talent that was on my no list. I wanted to please them so I did it. He put his foot on my head and stepped on it while he was doing me from behind. I freaked out and started balling; they stopped filming and sent me home with reduced pay since they got some shot but not the whole scene.

[freshwest]

18. Was that from what Chris Hedges wrote or the Hustling the Left book?

And people wonder why women vote Republican, and get conservative, when we deny this is going on?

Or are these NOT Democrats, who want to present these as Democratic Party values, so people will not vote for Democrats, blame the 'liberal culture,' or not vote all so the Republicans/Libertarians will win either way?

I know no Democrats in real life who dismiss the degradation of women. Bain's Bane said it well:

Dismissing the rights and concerns of people of color and women is reactionary. It is way more reactionary than Third Way. There is nothing progressive or liberal about it, and I don't consider people who do so to be leftists. Period.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025216329#post457

[redqueen]

20. It's excerpts from a bunch of interviews. Some of them are on YouTube.

This information is all over tumblr. Girls and young women have had it with the lies.

[freshwest]

21. I am glad to hear that girls and young women are fed up! They will be living with this for years.

It's more vicious than when I was growing up, to tell the truth. So they must become strong and resist it. Thanks for that, redqueen.

[redqueen]

22. These girls are getting it shoved in their face at school

and like you said, its even worse than when it was just Heffner and flynt degrading women in magazines.

It's really a damned shame more boys and men don't speak out, but... well...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. Where are the men now? Who among the DU men will read that in it's entirety and what will

their reply be? Those names are recognizable as mainstream porn. Will they deny that this is the porn they watch? Will they please post quotes from their favorite porn actresses to support their stance? Where are their quotes from the Producers and Agents?

What do they offer as rebuttal to this

Is this just considered anecdotal therefore not scientific?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

48. Well, I'm a DU male, and it doesn't look like anyone else is answering you.

My reply? I recognize exactly 2 names. Lovelace, because they made a movie about how horrific her experiences with 'Deep Throat' were, and Jameson, because they mentioned her in a Family Guy episode. So I'm afraid I don't recognize the rest of those people as 'mainstream porn', or watch them.

My favorite pornstar was Nina Hartley, a registered nurse turned adult film star (more than 600 films over 30 years) turned sex educator. I can't give you the quotes I was going to, because the interview she did with the Humanist magazine I was going to grab from is now a 404 error. Here's a snippet from Secular Café, wherein someone else talks about that interview.

Her interviewer asked her how she responds to antiporn feminists, and she described the progress that women have made over the last half-century in getting to do things under their name, and how that includes being sexual in the way that they want.

She also rebutted charges that the porn business is dangerous and exploitative and coercive. Although such charges are likely true in some cases, she's likely right that it's not been very true of her experience. All in all, she seems to believe in what she's doing.

So I would suggest that just like in every other field of human endeavour, not all people have the same experiences. The ones listed above are pretty horrific. And, as we see with Lovelace, there has certainly been a dark side to the business all along, but not all performers end up dealing with the same sleazebags. Which is more common? Back then, I don't know. Nowadays, I'd hazard a guess that the quotes posted above are more common than the sort of experiences Ms Hartley had in her time in the business. Overall, she seems to have been one of the luckier ones.

[redqueen]

51. And she's still cashing in on the industry, so... there's that. nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

53. Residuals?

I'm surprised anyone in the business was that contract savvy. I would have thought performers got paid upfront and that was that.

[redqueen]

56. No, she does mature porn.

And directs. Or so I've read.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

58. Oh, I thought she'd stopped after getting into sex ed stuff.

Maybe I'll do a bit more googling, although I'm going to admit upfront, I'm aesthetically a bit shallow, and I doubt I'd find her as visually appealing as I did 25 or 30 years ago.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

59. I have heard of Nina Hartley. It is the go to reply for this type of question.

The token if you will.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

62. Didn't know that.

I liked her in part because she was also a nurse, and because she was in the movies when I was younger and, ah, 'randier'.

I don't spend much of my time discussing porn, so I was unaware she was 'the token'.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

63. I have talked more porn these past few months than I have in my whole life

and Randy used to be my middle name

I have looked at some of the sites out there.

all I can say is whatever floats your boat or trips you trigger ... but, Call me senorita cos I am outta here, adios.

I admit to being curious and at first, the danger held a certain .... appeal.

The Difference. The medical aspect of it all.

but, OMG There is TONS of it out there and it just goes on and on and on

... and to think it is so easily available to young boys and girls.

[jakeXT]

76. Looks like Roxy is the stage name of Shelly Lubben

Other names: Roxy, Shelley Lynn Moore

She entered the adult film industry, while working as a prostitute, when she was 24 years old. During her time in the sex industry, she contracted herpes and HPV, which led to cervical cancer,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelley_Lubben

[redqueen]

19. Some quotes from pornographers (TRIGGER WARNING, NSFW):

"These chicks are our natural enemy...It is time we do battle with them...What I want is a devastating piece that takes the militant feminists apart...They are unalterably opposed to the romantic boy-girl image that Playboy promotes."
-- Hugh Hefner , Memo to staff members, cited by Karen Jacobs, "Patterns of Violence", The Harvard Women's Law Journal (1984), quoted in Diana Russell, Making Violence sexy ; 1993.

"I don't care if a baby holds up a Playboy bunny rattle."
-- Hugh Hefner , when asked by the Washington Post what he thought of kids wearing Playboy -logo clothing and accessories, quoted in Pamela Paul, Pornified , 2005.

"Women are here to serve men. Look at them, they got to squat to piss. Hell, that proves it."
-- Larry Flynt , Hustler 's publisher, quoted on The Anti-porn Resource Center (oneangrygirl.net/antiporn.html).

"There are those who say illogic is the native tongue of anything with tits...(women) speak not from the heart but from the gash, and chances are that at least once a month your chick will stop you dead in your tracks with a masterpiece of cunt rhetoric...the one surefire way to stop those feminine lips from driving you crazy is to put something between them -- like your cock, for instance."
-- Hustler Magazine , quoted on The Anti-porn Resource Center (oneangrygirl.net/antiporn.html).

"T.T. reflects exactly what that sort of porno is about," senior video editor Bud Swope said, "where you screw the hell out of the woman and come all over her face. He throws girls around. He pile-drives till they protest...He's just aggression." In an interview in the April 1995 issue of Hustler Erotic Video Guide, T.T. Boy had this to say: "I was a shy little kid when I started, and now I'm just a guy who wants to fuck the shit out of all these girls. Just fuck 'em to death."
-- Bud Swope and T. T. Boy , quoted in Susan Faludi's 'Stiffed'.

"I enjoy watching people in pleasure, being pleasured, especially women. And that's the focus of my tapes. The woman's orgasm, the woman's pleasure. How it happens -- whether it be a fist or a penis, or a squash -- to me, it doesn't necessarily matter. That's within my personal realms of what's OK."
-- Adam Glasser , actor and producer of porn films (Source: pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/interviews/glasser.html).

"Rocco [Siffredi] has far more power in this industry than any actress... I was the first to shoot Rocco. Together we evolved toward rougher stuff. He started to spit on girls. A strong male-dominant thing, with women being pushed to their limit. It looks like violence but it's not. I mean, pleasure and pain are the same thing, right? Rocco is driven by the market. What makes it in today's market place is reality."
-- John Stagliano , pornographer, quoted in Martin Amis' "A Rough Trade", The Guardian , March 17, 2001.

"I'd like to really show what I believe the men want to see: violence against women. I firmly believe that we serve a purpose by showing that. The most violent we can get is the cum shot in the face. Men get off behind that, because they get even with the women they can't have. We try to inundate the world with orgasms in the face."
-- Bill Margold , porn industry veteran, quoted in Robert J. Stoller and I. S. Levine, Coming Attractions: The Making of an X-rated video ; 1993.

"People just want it harder, harder, and harder, because like Ron said, what are you gonna do next?"
-- Jerome Tanner , "AVN Directors Roundtable", Adult Video News , January 2003.

"We do a series called ‘Cocktails’ -- it's pretty repugnant. Girls have sex by a couple guys, and the guys and the girl, they have sex with her, and she's giving fellatio and she's hacking up boogies in a bowl. And they're spitting in the bowl. And then she'll think she's vomiting in the bowl, and at the end they come in the bowl. And then she drinks it all down. That's pretty repugnant. (Laughs) Sometimes we do a fellatio line, where the girl's giving fellatio, and she's gagging so much she vomits. ... It's repugnant. It is, Yes. We've got tons of stuff they technically could arrest us for. And when this happened, I put on our website -- I made a big speech: ‘I welcome the LAPD to come on down.’ I said, ‘Come and get me,’ I said, "Because we won't go down without a fight. We will fight this. Regardless of the cost, we will fight it. We will take it to the airwaves."
-- Rob Black , Extreme Associates (Source: pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/interviews/black.html).

"People want more. They want to know how many dicks you can shove up an ass... It's like Fear Factor meets Jackass. Make it more hard, make it more nasty, make it more relentless. The guys make the difference. You need a good guy, who's been around and can give a good scene, fuckin'em hard. I did my homework. These guys are intense."
-- Mitchell Spinelli , interviewed while filming the video "Give me Gape", Adult Video News , September 2004.

"It's like a dog marking its territory. You know, why do dogs pee on fire hydrants and trees? I don't know. It's just like a man will leave his mark on a woman. You see something beautiful, you've got to let them know you were there."
--Pornographer Brandon Iron , explaining why men like to ejaculate onto women’s faces, quoted on The Anti-porn Resource Center (oneangrygirl.net/antiporn.html).

"Women were born with three holes for one purpose: To cram a cock deep inside every cuddly cavity! Like true cock sockets, our whores subject their beautiful bodies to the nastiest 4-way debauchery ever lensed. We capture five starry-eyed sluts getting wild and testing the limits of carnal cock-consumption. They redefine raunchy and stretch the limits of ass, mouth, and pussy penetration."
-- Promotional copy for Zero Tolerance - No Holes Barred .

"My whole reason for being in this Industry is to satisfy the desire of the men in the world who basically don't much care for women and want to see the men in my Industry getting even with the women they couldn't have when they were growing up. I strongly believe this... so we come on a woman's face or somewhat brutalize her sexually: we're getting even for their lost dreams. I believe this. I've heard audiences cheer me when I do something foul on screen. When I've strangled a person or sodomized a person, or brutalized a person, the audience is cheering my action, and then when I've fulfilled my warped desire, the audience applauds."
-- Bill Margold , porn industry veteran and Free Speech Coalition board member.

"There's nothing I love more than when a girl insists to me that she won't take a cock in her ass, because -- oh yes she will !"
-- Max Hardcore , interviewed in Hustler (June 1995).

"We at Pure Filth know exactly what you want, and we're giving it to you. Chicks being ass-fucked till their sphincters are pink, puffy and totally blown out. Adult diapers just might be in store for these whores when their work is done."
-- Promotional copy for "Anally Ripped Whores" .

"Max fucks chicks he finds the way you like to -- getting cute cunts on his couch. Using their tight holes to pleasure his stiff cock. Max turns ordinary teens and mother's [sic] alike into piss and cum-splattered sluts before your eyes... Max wastes no time, gagging girls on his cock and pissing down their throats before he even learns their email addresses! Max is the originator of rectal-boring action -- gaping assholes, and fisting cunts... Max also uses speculums to pry-open their fuck-holes so you can look deep inside. He’ll spray his cum and piss into the gaping tunnels, even making them drink it out of their ass! Whether its [sic] naïve teen or classy broad, Max delivers the same ruthless treatment."
-- Excerpt of " Max Hardcore Biography ", Max Hardcore official website (Source: maxhardcore.com/whoismax/index.htm). [Accessed 07/08/2007]

[freshwest]

23. The 'Free Speech Coalition' group. Priceless. Women excluded from membership, obviously.

[redqueen]

24. Their executive director is a woman actually. The rest are all men of course.

Not sure how she gets along with those men, or if she even gives a half a shit about their misogyny, or misogyny in general.

[freshwest]

26. It's about the money. The 'women' I spoke of are the women in the films. No voice for them.

[redqueen]

27. Oh yeah, they just get ignored, unless their opinions align with the industry's.

People really couldn't show more plainly how deep their fealty to this industry is.

[freshwest]

29. No surprise they have no answers to Hedges, Chomsky or Jensen:

Jensen’s treatise begins with a simple demand:

“Be a man.”

It ends with a defiant response:

“I chose to struggle to be a human being.”

[redqueen]

30. They don't address substance. They prefer ad hominems.

True geniuses, all

[freshwest]

33. ...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. Diane Duke ... ?

[redqueen]

44. Yep

At least I think she's still there. Maybe their leadership has changed...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. Google gives this =

Contact Us - the Free Speech Coalition
www.freespeechcoalition.com/contact.html
Canoga Park, CA 91309. Phone: [phone]. Fax: [phone]. Diane Duke - Executive Director: This e-mail address is being protected from spambots.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

36. I want a woman to come in here and tell me they are turned on by what they just read in that post.

Where are these women?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. I have to take issue anatomy-wise with this quote ...

"Women were born with three holes for one purpose: To cram a cock deep inside every cuddly cavity! Like true cock sockets, our whores subject their beautiful bodies to the nastiest 4-way debauchery ever lensed. We capture five starry-eyed sluts getting wild and testing the limits of carnal cock-consumption. They redefine raunchy and stretch the limits of ass, mouth, and pussy penetration."
-- Promotional copy for Zero Tolerance - No Holes Barred .

Maybe I will write them a letter ...

what a fracking idjit.

[redqueen]

47. I often wonder if those who so enthusiastically defend other people's right to porn ever look at it.

Such descriptions are extremely common. They're the norm actually.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

49. I don't read or watch 'the norm' then.

Those were all pretty repulsive quotes. If that's the mainstream, I guess I'm out on the fringes.

[redqueen]

50. Where do you go?

Redtube, youporn, etc are all full of hateful shit about women.

And there are lots of links to special sites for 'abuse porn'. With nice big banner ads showing sickening images to tantalize people into clicking. Well, I find them sickening. Obviously many find them arousing.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

52. Go?

I own some movies made back in the 70s and early 80s, although admittedly, I don't pull them out that often. And a long time ago, I had an account at a site run by a female bodybuilder who would strip down during exercise routines.

I don't recall if I've heard of 'redtube' or 'youporn', but I don't think I've been to either.

The most recent site I've been to was actually a spoof site. www.furnitureporn.com.

[redqueen]

54. LOL, yeah. I meant what sites...

Its nothing like what was on DVDs 30 or 40 years ago. I can promise you that.

Well, there is some out there. The two edible slices on the dogshit and broken glass pizza, as it were.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

55. Not interested in doing any sites to find the sort of stuff

talked about in the quotes above, thanks. (And we had VHS back then, you young whippersnapper, not DVDs ; ) In fact, apart from occasional outlinks from sites I hit online, probably 99% of what I do online is DU or DK (political blogs), Lotro (online MMO gaming), youtube videos (music, gardening, preserving, nursing), bill paying and email, although not in that order. I wandered around piratebay in the past, but the ISPs got really hardline about places that were used for copyright infringement a few years back, and I didn't want to lose my net connection because I downloaded a digital copy of a song or two I already had on vinyl, so I stopped going there.

[redqueen]

57. I understand, believe me.

I do wish those who fervently defend the industry on behalf of other people (the 'i don't but others should be able to' thing) would familiarize themselves with what they're defending.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

60. I think industries need to defend themselves.

Although I understand enough about market forces to be rather dismayed about what it says about what consumer demands are nowadays if that's what is 'mainstream' now. It makes me wonder how we wound up here, to some extent. I don't actually believe that mankind is inherently evil, but it seems like we've moved into a period where all sorts of hatreds have become not only more prevalent, but more open. Misogyny, racism, homophobia... I'd like to think it's all 'death throes', the violent thrashing around of a dysfunctional culture dying and being replaced by something better, but I'm also fairly cynical. Even as we've finally begun to understand how these evils are perpetuated from generation to generation, I think the majority of the population isn't all that aware of that kind of knowledge.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

61. This is what we are talking about ---

I own some movies made back in the 70s and early 80s >snip

This is not that porn. This is rape porn/abuse porn. This is not simulated.

oh well, takes all kinds, I guess

if they used to throw the xians to the lions, this is no worse. nothing new under sun.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

64. It wasn't simulated back then either.

But it was still porn. I don't think you can simply ignore some porn because it doesn't openly display rape or humiliation, and proclaim that 'porn' is all about rape and humiliation, because, apparently, there's now a large market for porn that does feature rape and humiliation.

That's 'No True Scotsman'. Heck, to get more topical, it's like proclaiming that there are no Palestinians, only 'Hamas', so that you can decry anyone who dares to object about the treatment of Palestinians as being a 'Hamas lover'.

Porn is everything pornish, from the most loving self-made tapes by married couples to the hateful stuff mentioned in various comments here. You don't think that everyone who 'defends' porn is actually 'defending' men spitting on women or raping them anally, do you? Cause if so, I gotta say, you're painting with a really overly broad brush.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

65. okay but, they are called actors for a reason. You understand where I learned all this

It is Art. It is Freedom of Speech/Expression. Do not cramp the style by requesting condoms on set.

Rape Porn is Art.

Abuse Porn is Freedom of Speech.

ALL of it is protected under the first amendment.

Critique = Censoring.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

67. I'm going to take that as sarcasm.

Because I'm sure you're not one of the dipsticks on site who quotes the first amendment but doesn't know it applies only to the government, or who actually believes that criticism is the same as censorship.

Is it art? Hell no. It's about as much art as Jackson Pollock's crap. (Ie, some people will tell you it's art, but seriously, you could get sick on a canvas and it would look a lot like a Pollock.) Art has a message.

And a message that isn't 'Then men in this film hate women, and enjoy torturing them sexually'. That's not art, that's hate speech.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

69. ah, ok.

You were quoting the stupid, not mocking them.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

71. yes, and sorry about the self delete. I replied to myself and so I remedied it while you were

replying.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

70. Dude, I am telling you this

is what I have learned by reading on here. and No, I am not being sarcastic.

This is their stance. Their defense. Their argument. Their justification. Their rationalization.

I am a prude radfem censoring conservative who needs to be silenced.

I have already had one post in this thread go to jury.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

72. Actually I read this the first time ;)

I clicked on it before the self-delete, so you didn't need to repost it

[Tuesday Afternoon]

73. ha. but I had already self deleted before I realized you had replied and I was reposting when you

were replying. we crossed in the ether as it were. meh. no biggie.

seems not many are interested in discussing this subject right now.

go figure.

[chervilant]

75. Interesting...

Where are all the porn free speech sycophants?!?

I expected a few of the most vociferous defenders of porn free speech to make an effort...

( jic the alert squad gets their undies in a wad...)