here is the thing. we have become such an ugly people, saying whatever offensive thing we want,

[seabeyond]

as we yell FREEDOM of SPEECH. screech it, even. talk about the shills.

yet, we have two recent OPs here in feminism that talks of the privilege of man, white/christian man, to continually and consistently, say nasty things to women and blacks, and we are all suppose to be fine with it, and limit our freedom of speech to accomodate his insults.

it is an interesting quandary to be had.

[still_one]

1. Are you referring to DU or society in general. DU is governed by terms

Of service. And community standards, I.e. The jury system

Society is governed by different standards though the effect may be the same

[seabeyond]

2. du isnt "governed" by shit. it is governed by the same society

that is everywhere in real life.

[CrispyQ]

7. This: ^^^

We have the right, as a society, to define standards & say, no, we don't want that as our standard. Yes, it can be available, but limited, not widely distributed & out there for public consumption, as something to base our culture on. But the everything-for-profit model has taken 'freedom of speech' to the edge & now we live in a cesspool. I don't see anything changing until we change this predatory capitalistic model. You made a comment once, about how your oldest boy has a hard time finding young women who are not indoctrinated in the 'everything for a man' world view. It's so entrenched, even among our own sex, it will be a battle.


Just because you can say or do something, does that mean you should?

[shenmue]

26. I think so too.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

3. seems I have to keep reminding myself that people have the right to be as stupid

as they wanta be.

Of course, I still retain the right to call stupid when I see it.

[seabeyond]

4. and then, get a hide. lol. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. I call those Badges of Honor ... lol

[TDale313]

6. In theory, we should have the same Freedom of Speech to call out the racism and sexism

In practice, those pointing those things out seem to often get more pushback than the original offending comments ever did. Freedom of Speech shouldn't be seen as a shield against people disagreeing with you, or telling you certain comments are hurtful or damaging. Once any comment or response deteriorate into threats or physical violence, of course, a line's been crossed that should never be crossed.

Of course, if we're talking about DU, it is a private message board. The owners could set certain rules against certain types of hateful speech if they chose to. They've decided on the Jury system, which means if you can get 4 Jury members to give you a pass, you can pretty much say anything you like. And if you do happen to have jury members on an alert that aren't fans of yours, they can hide just about anything.

[seabeyond]

8. no. du does not have to be a cesspool. that is in the business plan/control of the owners. nt

[TDale313]

9. Exactly right.

They could definitely fix things for the better. It's in their hands.

[brer cat]

10. The general lack of civility and downright ugliness on DU

has been very troubling to me and it certainly puts a quietus on discussion. We have DUers telling bravenak and 1StrongBlackMan they can't define racism; we endured a long siege of very ugly comments surrounding Chelsea Manning's transition; and of course crappy things are often said about women, and particularly feminists. I honestly believe there are DUers who think that if they put HOF somewhere in a sentence, the rest of the sentence can contain vile excrement because "everyone knows" HOFers are b*****s who deserve it.

I don't think there is any question that we all support freedom of speech, but fos should never be an excuse to force us to tolerate abusive, nasty comments, or to curb our rights to call out those guilty of oppressive language. Just as person's right to carry a gun ends at my front door, a person's fos right to use abusive language should end at DU's front door. I think our jury system is failing to enforce those rights, and we need much stronger support from the admins. Of course, by saying so I may be guilty of disruptive meta-discussion which is not permitted speech under DU rules.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. off topic = my cat is in my lap and is mesmerized by the gif in your sigline

[ismnotwasm]

13. I was mad at my cat for being noisy so I put cat fights on.

So was fascinated, then got so upset she batted and hissed at the dog. Guess I won't do that anymore

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. lol ... you gave her ideas

put on fish in an aquarium next time

[brer cat]

15. Good kitty.

Further off topic, we have been cat-less for a long while, but this weekend I am picking up a beautiful 6 year old in need of a new home. We are so looking forward to having someone in charge of our house.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. oh. very nice. Welcome to forever home lucky cat. Pictures will be required, you know.

[brer cat]

24. Here you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018712405

[Tuesday Afternoon]

25. ah, thanks! off to look, now -

[seabeyond]

20. you hijacked my thread and changed it to a cat thread. lmFao. only on the nets.

i am a dog personally, .... myself. though i did have fun with a cat for a couple weeks in my house. was amazing behavior and fun to watch. i figure a special cat. kinda liked its personality.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. lol ... believe it or not -

cats can be a lot like dogs. Both of my cats come when I whistle

[seabeyond]

23. i know. that was what was awesome about this cat. not stupid. is trainable, lol

and it trains us too, to how it wants to play. a lot of what i ascribed only to dogs. yes

[ismnotwasm]

12. That +300 thread really bugged me

White People attempting explain what was racist to POC is an embarrassment and a tragedy for any progressive. Same with defense of sexism and misogyny. It's over the top bizarre bullshit that shouldn't be tolerated. Freedom of speech? We have enough to object to what some bigoted asshole is saying. Sure doesn't stop them from saying it does it? Then they whine like a three year old--'you're taking my Fredom of speech away!' I want to tell they keep pouting, a birds gonna fly by and shit on their bottom lip

[brer cat]

14. Amen to all you said.

I just hope I can be around when the bird comes by.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Heh!

Me too

[freshwest]

17. It's like talking to Dittoheads, very much so.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. that pouty bottom lip is stuck out so far we can walk on it.

sometimes I like to jump up and down on it but, that can warrant a hide so, I most times I restrain myself.

[cheapdate]

27. The "uglieness on DU" thing is overstated.

Comments are sometimes made that are beyond the pale. That's life. But more often than that, there are simply different perspectives, frankly presented. Learn from it. Do we need to water down every discussion and purge every perspective that makes us uncomfortable? I've been on the forum for 15 years (low post count not withstanding) and the number one reason I come here is to learn how to answer back.

[bluestateguy]

28. You do not have the constitutional right to not be offended

Your hurt feelings do not trump my constitutional rights.

You have similar freedom to offend other people with your speech too.

Don't like it? Move to Iran. They're so much more hospitable for women and minorities.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

41. wow.

[seabeyond]

43. go to iran? that is so rw

[JTFrog]

53. Gotta love

folks who drop in just to flex their privilege.

[siligut]

54. The best strategy, in this case, is to consider the source

I am not saying that all opinionated people are assholes but if they are . . . we certainly don't need laws to protect us from their shit, our god-given power of discernment gives us all the protection we need.

[KamaAina]

59. That's kind of harsh, don't you think?

As it turns out, I was the deciding vote to leave it. But still, ewwwwwwww!

[arcane1]

30. Take your ineffective penis someplace else.

[Sheldon Cooper]

31. Preserved:

Yoyez

29. Listen, you stupid bitch

The most ugly and offensive people around here, saying nasty things to people, ARE the blacks and feminists, and they get away it continually and consistently, yet you have the nerve to try put that on white/Christian men?

Go fuck yourself.

One more thing. White men can say whatever the hell they want, and you'll just deal with it, ok? Who are you to tell white men what they should or shouldn't be saying? Nobody, least of all a feminist or a nigger, has the right to tell white men anything. Who the fuck do you think you are? If you're offended, you can just get over it. There's no "quandary".
Reply to this post
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Which returning troll is this?

[arcane1]

32. Thanks, I'll need that if my post gets alerted :)

[DonCoquixote]

34. thank you

we need to preserve shit like that because people will sanctimoniusly say, without a hint of shame "WHERE have you ever heard us saying stuff like this?"

[seabeyond]

46. you and i are basically disagreeing on this. you know what i told someone the other day?

no. i do not need to hear this continuously running dialog of misogyny.... to know it is there. in joke. in entertainment. in so much more.

everyones right to the vulgar, and none of us have the right to say no.

that simply does not work for me, with so much of it directed to me.

maybe that is the difference in the view.

[DonCoquixote]

57. in this case

My tip of the hate was that someone recorded the idiot sayign it, because when the powers that be try to deal with them, they will lielie lie and say "we never sed dat." The reference was for DU so that when they act like it does not happen, we can say "look dummies, we saved you a sample."

[seabeyond]

45. wow. a real keeper there.

reality is i find little interest here on du with this repetitive shit, as i am seeing the same from so many.

i can think of two, that speak like this. one in particular this matches so.

as i typed that, thinking over the years and the many..... i can hear others saying it too.

yes. which one of the many trolls.

[whathehell]

52. Please tell me this person was tombstoned immediately after that post

and that he had a low post count to begin with.

[siligut]

55. Good work, thank you. T'was a true cretin, that one.

[BainsBane]

33. Don't you have a Hitler rally to get to?

Better get that white hood out of the laundry. Chop, chop.

[seabeyond]

44. i know two posters on DI, who sent a good time on DU, that would say

exactly that shit.

[BainsBane]

50. Only two?

[seabeyond]

51. ya. i was saying again, above and had to revise a little.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125553799#post45

[DonCoquixote]

36. the issue is abuse

The fact is, freedom of speech is abused and misused, especialy by those in power that claim to be discussing, but in reality are out to supress anyone thatmight have an opinion different than them. Yeah, Charlie was an example, and yes, Discussionist and their proxies/allies at DU are examples.

However, I do think that the minute you say "this speech must be supressed because people will be offended" you open the door for those who will suppress and act like they are doing it with good intent. " The fact is, anyone who speaks for women/minorities/the working class/non Christian can and will be considered offensive. Hell, some in Dixie still feel offended at the "war of Northern Agression." Granted, when the dudes go ahead and say shit, they need to be called out on it, ridiculed, and made to crawl back to their holes, but censoring them lets them fly the martyr flag, which is the reliable weapon of those trying to gain power.

I do not want to erect somethign that will be used against the Ellen Degeneres and Roseanne Barrs of the world. You know that the minorities, women included, will bear the brunt of any censorship rule, whereas, just like those white guys that shoot blacks and never get found guilty (Zimmerman, Bundy, et al) , the same suspects will snipe at us from the rooftops.

[seabeyond]

47. this is where conversation in feminism always goes. regardless of the number of times feminists

address this.

i stand for a persons free speech.
i stand for a persons to ownership of a gun.

i do not play in the ugly. the racism, misogyny, homohobia. nor do i like guns and i know the issues with them.

what so many do in argument on du, is reduce us to wanting to deny a person right to speech.

the reality. what we feminists on du really experience, is.... when we use our voice, when we use our $ to to challenge, we are told that is unacceptable.

that would be the mahers of the group. that would be many in this issue of free speech and charlie.

maher says.... we are not allowed to use the power of our dollar and voice to challenge this open racism, misogyny, homophobia.

i do not accept the argument. the premise. the demand.

and i do not resort to the ugly, challenging it either. but i do have the right, and a personal expectation to call it out.

that is different from banning.

and the little hypocrisy of france. its racism, and misogyny i know for a fact. yelling about their freedom as they deny others theirs.

i cannot... not cal that shit out.

[DonCoquixote]

58. and i do not resort to the ugly, challenging it either. but i do have the right, and a personal expe

Indeed, for those who say offernsive stupid shit, they do need to be called out. but as you point out, it is different from banning.

[seabeyond]

61. ya. i know you do not either, lol. nt

[DonCoquixote]

60. one thing to clarify

One absolute is NOT to deny you or anyone the right to criticize or speak out. My main worry is that there are people doing exactly that, using this as cover. That is why I point out how the catholics were ridign the bandwagon,while ignoring the way they have and still suprress speech.

I have no problem with you, because I know that while there are agruments...arguments are "different from banning." I am watchign otu for those who are using the outrage to paves us both over, like Pope Francis and his goons.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. to learn how to diffuse rather than to escalate a situation takes some diplomatic skill

and finesse. I think it is becoming a lost art/talent.

[ismnotwasm]

39. We do it all the time at work

It's a required skill for nurses. We even have a CE. Class "how to manage difficult patients", (granted the nurse patient dynamic is different)But we have another CE course! "Conflict resolution" for those pesky co-workers, although we are encouraged to use the information the class offers anytime.
We also have palliative/spiritual care folks come by every so often for "refresh and reflect"-- they choose a topic, for when we have a short break to talk about whatever with tea and cookies.

Then there's another hot topic in nursing--'moral distress',-- something that can be a daily occurrence is isn't acknowledged often enough.

Since we are a profession that deals with all kinds of people, we need to take communication courses as part of a good nursing program. We still have a cultural competency to fulfill every year at my job, as well as an ethics competency.

All that and I still sometimes want to say "fuck you you fucking fuck" to certain individuals and their---er--opinions

[Tuesday Afternoon]

40. yes, but, it is not the norm to learn how to do this and, even then I need a place where I can

vent/let it out. and yes, a lot of fuckity, fuck, fuck, aaaargh, damn. double damn. goes on

[ismnotwasm]

42. Heh!

Me too.

[seabeyond]

49. we do this all the time, in our lives, when we choose to not purposely be offensive.

do we want to be sometimes? damn straight. and i know that you both, work hard on du not to be offensive and to be civil, and i KNOW you are capable of not being, but that you make the choice and effort to not be. that is not who you are. or how you approach something.

we choose when we are in the workforce, in almost all areas. service. we would not keep a job, if we could not address people in a non offensive manner.

we do it while in public, meeting strangers and interacting here and there.

none of this is an out there concept. none of this is new. just today, we are having a huge push for the acceptance of the offensive. i do not agree.

[ismnotwasm]

56. I understand

That's why the chickenshit choice of being offensive on-line is so disturbing. If people said some things in RL they do online they'd sound nuts

[seabeyond]

48. meeting a man yesterday. my nieces new BF. mid twenties. military.

i plop down to chat about a couple things with niece and a nephew. and an interest in chatting with this young man, to better know him.

i ask.... how many siblings.

7

k, i always go to.... are you catholic? generally i get laughs, and it is fun/shocking and i have never experienced others feeling abused. religion is a major discussion in this area. in meeting people, the question asked, what church do you go to.

not catholic, and i really did not think he was. he is living in lubbock (top three on most conservative) (huge cross with jesus, as entering the communty)

lubbock, fundamentalist? i ask. he friggin doesnt know the definition, so not up there in awareness, and father a preacher. he was adopted in a family of 8, he knows his biological and that father is a preacher. (there is a story in this)

i tell you this back story, cause the reason for posting has to do with the back story. here is the thing. i am really just sitting iwth this info, processing and he tells me about the youngest sister. (6 girls, 2 boys).

22 and she is growing a beard. this whips my head to him to listen to more of his story. here we have this born girl, know at 12 this is wrong, or came out then, anyway. in lubbock texas, with a preacher father and all these siblings that are extreme.

she has come out to such an extent... or he as i said, and the conversation that ensued, he has done surgery and on hormone. in a small town of lubbock, rw christian/dominican fundamentalist preacher family.

yes, he has his right to sit in the anger, dear, confusion, hate..... and anyone can damn well bet, i will state, that i will not/do not live and be that way. i can respect the "he". it does not impact my life at all. and it is respective to another human being. that is good enough for me.