(HOF THREAD!) SO is the word "BITCH" still acceptable on DU...

[yuiyoshida]

Last edited Sat Jan 24, 2015, 08:38 AM - Edit history (2)

guess we can now call the stupid little bitch a stupid little bitch
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6129455

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

So, have we decided that the term "bitch" is acceptable for a woman yet? I say hell no..but a lot of people are not getting that message, even if its a Republican..or Sarah Palin, as much as I hate her too. Can we stop using this term for women? Leave it for the dogs.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Jan 23, 2015, 07:49 PM, and voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Doesn't bother this female. *shrug*
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't have a problem calling a bitch a bitch. If the shoe fits.......

Thank you.

Cannot reply to automated messages


Will it ever change?

10 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Time expired
	Probably Not and I wish It would
	1 (10%)
	This is the "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" we keep hearing about
	2 (20%)
	We really should make an effort to change it.
	6 (60%)
	Leave it alone, the Jury should decide..that's how it is..
	1 (10%)
	Other
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[F4lconF16]

1. Admins need to step in.

This is unnacceptable.

Edit to add that if you think "bitch" is an okay word to call someone, you're not a liberal. You are not a progressive. You are a misogynist asshole. Period.

[yuiyoshida]

10. Nailed it.

[840high]

18. +1

[A-Schwarzenegger]

36. Admins = Elvis

They has left the building.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

37. I stand corrected - Skinner's working on the problem.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12597457#post1

[F4lconF16]

44. ...

[SidDithers]

55. +1...

Absentee landords.

Sid

[petronius]

2. I would vote #1 and #3

As for #3, that usage will get a hide from me every time...

[Texasgal]

3. It's always been this way

and be careful because once you complain about that sexist invective you will be piled on and accused of "ruining" DU.

[cheapdate]

4. Completely depends on context.

For crying out loud, there's a strong, feminist magazine called "Bitch". I think it's an excellent magazine. I'm sure not everyone agrees. "Bitch" generally denotes a very specific kind of woman who displays a particular behavior. It's a useful word.

[BainsBane]

12. You have the context here

and it is not a feminist magazine. It is an insult about a woman. This is like Bravenak's post about terms like Uncle Tom, only the gendered version. It shows contempt for women, so it certainly is useful in that regard. The English language does not lack for works to demean women, and most of those words are used on this site. That you would think it acceptable to come into HOF and defend misogynist language is really the limit

[cheapdate]

13. I'm defending language.

And I'm disputing the need to ban certain words. Context is what matters.

Words aren't misogynistic, people are. Furthermore, you can sometimes tell misogynistic people by the words they use and how they use them.

I'm opposed to a categorical ban on certain words. If for no other reason, it helps the true assholes to reveal themselves.

[BainsBane]

16. We are talking about community standards, not a "ban"

How would we know if someone is misogynistic or racist without taking note of the language they use? Words have specific meanings. Misogynists use misogynist language because they find it useful to convey their contempt for women, just as racists use racist language because they find it useful to convey their contempt for people of color. If language is meaningless, there is no point participating in this or any other discussion. The only way we know people online is through their words. The language they choose conveys their thoughts and values.

Early today we heard how people who referred to another member as Republican or "left leaning independent" should be immediately banned (not simply result in a jury hide but be permanently banned from the site). Whereas words that degrade women, people of color, and LGBT must not be censored because "free speech" requires that bigoted speech be protected. How else will the privileged be able to express their contempt for the majority if they can't use sexist and racist insults? Surely we can't expect them to treat the subaltern as human beings, much less equal.

When you joined this site, you agreed to terms of service that prohibit bigotry. Since this is an online forum where people communicate through words, that bigotry is expressed through bigoted language, which is why it was always deleted when we had moderators. Now that we have juries, some have decided that insulting women is just too important for that language to met with the consequence of a jury hide.

Now, I will repeat again, you are in the HISTORY OF FEMINISM group, the one corner of this site where women expect to be treated with respect. This is not a forum. It is a safe haven group. You can go justify misogynist language with your like-minded cohorts in GD, but we do not permit it in this group.

[cheapdate]

19. Why would you bother to even pose a question

in your "safe group" if there is only one acceptable answer? Riddle me that.

[mercuryblues]

95. just to piss you off

[Tuesday Afternoon]

54. results are in

On Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:29 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Completely depends on context.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=54111

REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS
No, sexist words are not "useful" words. They are bigoted and insensitive.. ""Bitch" generally denotes a very specific kind of woman"
This is sexism. 100% unadulterated sexism. It's completely inappropriate for a liberal forum.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:43 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: While I know the word is commonly used by women amongst themselves with no problem, it's bad form to use it against any women outside of this context and not necessary on a public board where many, probably most, do find it very offensive - no matter which woman it's used to describe.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Racist terms are frequently used to denote specific types of people who display particular behaviors. But they are still NOT ok to use.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I looked it up. Leave it.

http://bitchmagazine.org/about-us

About Us
Who We Are
B-Word Worldwide, doing business as Bitch Media, is the nonprofit organization best known for publishing the magazine Bitch: Feminist Response to Pop Culture. Bitch Media’s mission is to provide and encourage an engaged, thoughtful feminist response to mainstream media and popular culture.

Who We Are
Bitch Media is a nonprofit feminist media organization best known for publishing the magazine Bitch: Feminist Response to Pop Culture. Bitch Media's mission is to provide and encourage an engaged, thoughtful feminist response to mainstream media and popular culture. We seek to be a fresh, revitalizing voice in contemporary feminism, one that welcomes complex arguments and refuses to ignore the contradictory and often uncomfortable realities of life in an unequivocally gendered world.

Bitch Media has a diverse audience, which keeps the dialogue and the movement we're a part of dynamic and strong. We are also uniquely situated to draw in young readers who are at a critical moment in their lives—a moment when they are discovering feminism and activism, finding answers to who they are, and questioning the definitions of gender, sexuality, power and agency prescribed by the mainstream media. Bitch not only plays a role in exploring these topics, it also provides a toolkit for engaging in analysis that promotes activism and impels social change. Bitch Media has a broad reach, with more than…

• 80,000 readers
• 180,000 fans on Facebook
• 89,000 Twitter followers
• 25,000 subscribers to B-Mail, our e-newsletter
• 23,000 registered users on bitchmedia.org
• 10,000 Bitch subscribers in 46 countries and all 50 states
• 12,000 unique visitors a day to bitchmedia.org• 7,400 monthly podcast audio downloads
• 2,000 retail locations carrying Bitch across the U.S.

The Magazine
Since 1996, Bitch: Feminist Response to Pop Culture, has provided smart, witty, and thought-provoking commentary on and analysis of TV, film, music, advertising, books, and more. Each issue of Bitch offers a whip-smart collection of critical essays, thoughtful reported pieces, incisive reviews, and interviews with feminist artists, thinkers, culture-makers, and activists—a mix that readers simply won't find anywhere else. In addition to a readership of 80,000 that loves having Bitch in their lives, the magazine has also received critical acclaim from other media outlets...

"Bitch's honesty, thoughtfulness, modesty, and understated brilliance make it a must-read." —San Francisco Review
"One of the best-written and edited girl-centric zines around." —Spin
"Required reading for the modern feminist." —Baltimore City Paper
"A breath of journalistic fresh air." —Chicago Tribune
"Cheerfully attitudinous updated feminism." —Katha Pollitt, The Nation

Watch the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=1q-jWBgkNU8&x-yt-cl=84503534

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Context is important. Bitch is a feminist magazine. Fair enough point to make on a discussion board.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Do not agree with alerter
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It's completely inappropriate for a liberal forum ... especially in a safe haven group. And cheapdate knows that. This was not innocently lost on DU. This was deliberate. Hide it.

[cheapdate]

57. Thanks for the info.

Maybe "useful" wasn't the right word I was looking for.

But my point is that words aren't misogynistic, people are. It's not the word, but how it's used and what it says in context.

The question here seems to be whether or not ANY occurrence of the word is AUTOMATICALLY unacceptable without any consideration of the context.

That goes too far, in my opinion.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

58. personally, I find the word ... acceptable on DU3 for only two reasons =

1. when referencing BITCH magazine
2. when referencing a female dog

while Sarah Palin may be a lot of things, a female dog is not one of them.

[marble falls]

88. The best and simplest explaination on this thread.

[LanternWaste]

96. All too often, context is merely an excuse.

All too often, context is merely a convenient excuse. In the thirteen years I've been at DU, I've never seen a sincere use of the word in a context which absolves the user and excuses its use... merely continued rationalizations of its use hiding behind ethical arguments by individuals lacking the courage of their own beliefs.

[YoungDemCA]

62. It's a useful word...if you want to be a misognyistic asshole

nt

[cheapdate]

63. Good Lord. People use the word in casual,

private conversation. It shouldn't come up that often, unless you're a cynical asshole, but the word gets used. And it doesn't automatically make the user an asshole.

"Asshole" by the way, is almost always, but not quite, exclusively male. "Bitch" is almost always, but not quite, exclusively female.

Other male gender specific terms for boorish or repugnant behavior include jerk, cad, or schmuck.

Apart from gender, there is one crucial difference between an asshole and a bitch. In short, a working theory of the asshole has three main parts.

In interpersonal or cooperative relations, the asshole:
(1) allows himself to enjoy special advantages and does so systematically.
(2) does this out of a sense of entitlement
(3) is immunized by his sense of entitlement against the complaints of other people.

- Assholes - A Theory. By Aaron James

James contrasts this with a bitch as follows:

A person counts as a bitch, we may say, when, and only when, she systematically takes special advantages in interpersonal relations out of an entrenched sense of entitlement that leaves her open to the voiced or expressed complaints of other people, but immunized against their motivational influence.

The only difference between the asshole and the bitch, in this proposal, appears in the italicized phrase "leaves her open to the voiced or expressed complaints of other people, but immunized against their motivational influence." In other words, the bitch listens to the voiced complaints of others, making at least a show of recognition. Nevertheless, what is said makes no motivational difference to what she does: once your face-to-face encounter is over it is as though you never talked.

We can't ignore the effect these people have on our lives.

[F4lconF16]

71. Asshole is NOT gender specific.

We all have them--the word can be used for either gender, no problem. Though people may use it more for males where you live (and I'd guess probably in the majority of places) it CAN be used for either. It does not, like the word "bitch", denigrate an entire class of people based on unalterable (non-choice) personal aspects.

"Bitch" refers to females, period. It has for a long, long time and will continue to. It is a slur based on the stereotypical "bitchy" female--assertive, dominant, whiny, etc. It's a fucked-up term that does not have an equivalent for the male gender, as with the words "slut", "cunt", and others.

"jerk, cad, or schmuck"
Again, just because a word isn't used against a gender doesn't mean it can't be. These don't denigrate men because they're men, or a certain type of men. Though I admit I don't remember about the word cad, but I think it isn't, and nevertheless it does not have the cultural prevalence or power, and should be considered irrelevant. Btw, I call my female friends jerks all the time.

That you would pretend that it does not have a very, very sexist history and a meaning past being the "female equivalent" to asshole (which is ENTIRELY untrue) is pretty disgusting, especially in a protected group--one of the few places on this board women can be somewhat safe. It has been stated unequivocally by the admins here that the term is sexist. If you really think it's "your right" to use it or some bullshit like that, then you're in the wrong place.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125554107#post1

[cheapdate]

80. If you, or anyone else, wants to permanently banish the word

bitch from your lexicon, and to limit your social circle exclusively to people who've made the same lexical choice, then so be it.

[F4lconF16]

82. Let me say what you just said, slightly differently:

"If you, or anyone else, wants to permanently banish the word (nigger, spic, cunt, fag, etc.) from your lexicon, and to limit your social circle exclusively to people who've made the same lexical choice, then so be it."

See how that works? You know, it's sad to watch people defend their bigotry. You'd think it'd be entertaining, but it's really just depressing when you think about all the hurt that those words have caused. Screw the people who try to make it acceptable.

Btw, if anybody wants me to remove the words from my post, let me know. I don't really feel comfortable using them even to make a point, and if someone doesn't want to see in this forum, I will be glad to remove them for you.

[cheapdate]

83. It's very different if someone is driving in traffic

and complains "That nigger just cut me off!" and another person complains "That bitch just cut me off!".

The difference is quite obvious to me, and I'd wager to most people, although clearly you would make no distinction.

Countless English speaking Americans use the word bitch to express their disgust for a particularly infuriating kind of selfish and self-centered person of the female gender.

No one outside of slang use in the "in-group", or in a social-critique context ever uses the word nigger in anything but a hostile racist way. Countless ordinary people use the word bitch in reference to a special kind of rudeness that everyone has had inflicted on them. All misogynists use the word bitch, usually a lot, but not everyone who uses the word is a misogynist.

[F4lconF16]

84. I'm out of things to say.

You've pretty clearly demonstrated your bigotry for anybody reading this, and I'm not in the mood to continue this. Goodbye.

[cheapdate]

85. Yeah, I'm a "bigot".

[marble falls]

89. Not at all, just a bit obtuse and argumentative.

[yuiyoshida]

92. both words are used by

Haters. Its just as bad as the guy who called me a "Chink" while on line. The results are the same, They have thrown their negative charged words at me, with one purpose.. TO BE FUCKING DEMEANING.

[KingCharlemagne]

5. I voted #3. - nt

[TheNutcracker]

6. You can't if it's a female elected official. I got censured for that in the past.

[yuiyoshida]

8. HOw is it that it can go both ways...??

I mean maybe someone should make up their mind, its either acceptable or its not.

[alp227]

7. If the N-word isn't acceptable the B-word shouldn't be either.

Bigotry is bigotry. If there were posts calling Linda Chavez a "spic" or Allen West a "nigger" they were probably hidden. Why does "bitch" get such a free pass?

[yuiyoshida]

9. A good question ...

And someone should be allowed to rule on that.. but when its put to a jury, you may as well flip a damn coin.

[yuiyoshida]

43. Please provide a link

where a member used the word "cracker" for someone, or called someone a "cracker"

[marble falls]

90. There actually was a cracker thread.

[yuiyoshida]

91. Perhaps, but that guy was

obviously trolling, and we see the results now.. poof! gone.

[marble falls]

94. Yes and he really needed to go.

[ChazII]

14. Bitch should only be used

when discussing a female canine. imo

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

29. I've used the expression "life's a bitch." You sayin that's not acceptable?

[F4lconF16]

30. I'd avoid it.

It references the stereotypical "bitch", which invariably refers to women. These things seem small, inconsequential even, but all the little bits of bigotry in our language add up. It's incredible how much of the stuff we say is kinda screwed up, when you think about it. I know I just avoid using the word at all, as I've yet to see a context where it can be used in a positive manner. I agree with (what I think is) the general consensus here as well about re-appropriation, too--the words have too much of a history. They inevitably end up hurting the user, who goes against the grain of society and is repressed by the weight of tens, if not hundreds of years of negative usage.

[ChazII]

49. Read post #30

It sums up my thoughts quite eloquently.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

15. not thrilled with throwing the word around...

Then there's "douche", which offends me much more. It's like getting kicked in the crotch when I see it used with such venom around here, and everywhere.

[whathehell]

130. Wow...I'm coming in late to this thread, but I have to tell you that I agree

It's sickening that the word "bitch", used as a synonym for "woman"

would be tolerated here, and yes, I hate the word

"douche", not more, but just as much -- Yes, I feel EXACTLY as you

do with respect to the "kicked in the crotch" thing -- it's like all things female

are to be held in contempt, and as for the "d" word, it's now even permitted

on network TV.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

132. seriously. I fucking hate it so much.

Ugh.

Like I hated hearing that effing song by "kings of leon" about 4 or 5 years ago....with the line, "and you can smell her p****". Yeah, I really enjoyed being out doing errands, like at the auto mechanic or talking to a male professor in the studio, and have that song come on the effing goddamn radio. X(

[whathehell]

133. I know EXACTLY how you feel, and

I m relieved to hear from someone who feels as strongly about it as I do..It is SO degrading -

- soul.destroying, in my opinion, and yes, I have felt this way for YEARS and have so much wanted to be able to

STOP.it, but in my experience, you don't even hear hat many women speaking about it.

The closest I believe I've ever heard it discussed is in a book written in the 70's -- Against Our Will

By Susan Brownmiller. Have you.read it?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

134. yes, I read it a long time ago!

Ai yi, I gotta go lights out! Almost 2am!

Was gonna start on a tangent, but, --NO! Must sleep!

ttyl

[840high]

17. Not acceptable. Shame on juror2 and 7.

[ismnotwasm]

20. If I posted and called some RW male politician a Bitch

It would rightly be considered offensive and homophobic. Like calling a guy someone's 'little bitch'-- What does that mean exactly? Or when someone cracks a prison rape joke "he's going to be his next bitch"

Context is everything, it's a word best avoided unless you're a dog breeder. That being said, I have friends who affectionately refer to each as bitches, as some sort of empowerment statement I guess. I tell them leave me out of that bullshit. They know I'm not the word police, because you want offensive I'll go there.

I prefer not, sexist language is still sexist. And trying to make it something different, well there's your 'lipstick on a pig'

[ColesCountyDem]

21. Flame bait. n/t

[BainsBane]

32. Who are you to decide what is an acceptable thread in HOF?

[ColesCountyDem]

38. A DU-er who's entitled to an opinion about a 'greatest' post, that's who.

Meta posts bitching about jury decisions are flamebait.

[F4lconF16]

45. Welp...

I hope you don't stick around long. See my post at the top of this thread.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

60. "I hope you don't stick around long."

He didn't.

[yuiyoshida]

46. This is more than a META posting

its about whether or not a word is bigoted enough to not be used on DU. You can not use the "c" word on DU, nor can you use the "N" word. In some context such as discussing dog breeding it is acceptable but if you are referring to women, most here on DU will tell you no. Its far from being trivial and or "flamebait".

It says more about the person who uses the word, than about the person it refers to. If they have to revert to name calling, rather than adding some thing intelligent to the conversation, they have already lost the debate.

[sheshe2]

81. Well excuse us.

This is a group not a forum. Read the rules. They are as plain as day.

Here~

The History of Feminism group serves as a safe haven to discuss, and learn the history of feminism. Apply the lessons of historical and modern day feminist struggles to current issues and events that impact women. This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively.

You~

A DU-er who's entitled to an opinion about a 'greatest' post, that's who.
Meta posts bitching about jury decisions are flamebait.

Yes, they get reced to 'Greatest' try to be aware where they are posted from. It is stated clearly in GD. You don't like it take it to skinner. I am well aware of what his answer will be for those that whine that a groups thread goes to GD. Wink~ He already ruled on the Barack Obama Group when some whined. Lol~ We stay!!!

[LanternWaste]

97. Is flame bait better or worse than groveling for other people's money numerous times?

Is flame bait better or worse than groveling for other people's money numerous times?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

123. Try ATA.

Oh, wait...

[JTFrog]

124. I don't think he's gonna like the answer.

I'm sure he was all giggly when Skinner first answered the question not realizing the guy wasn't talking about General Discussion.

He apparently thought he could tattle on the big bad feminists and Skinner would come and put them in their place for him. I mean why on earth would we allow women in a feminist group to discuss being called "bitches"? That's obviously just "flame bait".

Unfuckingbelievable the lengths some will go to try to control women.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

126. They should take getting blocked

as an opportunity to awaken & begin to know thyselves.
Alas...

[JTFrog]

127. Indeed. n/t

[whathehell]

131. Bullshit. This is a feminist group and we CAN discuss gender slurs..

You don't have to approve.

[freshwest]

22. Voted #2 sarcastically. Here's the icon just in case that's not clear why I voted that way:

A while back, such posts were hidden routinely. The CS is made by those who are on the Juries, and there is no TOS in effect, AFAIK. It might fall under 'gender' in that DU webpage. There was a discussion about it on DU2, just like there was one on the n-word. Skinner posted anyone who thought that was proper at DU, was an idiot or words to that effect. On the b-word, I think he said it was only okay as verb, not a noun.

I've got a splitting headache and few other things going on, but the n-word post by Skinner was posted when a Host locked a GD thread on DU3 for it.

Yet there was a discussion, IIRC.

[mackerel]

23. Is it ok if I call myself a bitch? I'm proud of it!

[fbc]

24. Why are you proud of it?

It's not a compliment.

Are you trying to take the word back or something? Or are you a bad person that likes being mean to people?

[mackerel]

26. It's just slang where I live. It's just another word to play with and the craic is mad!

[ismnotwasm]

33. Of course it's ok

But, given the topic originally started with Sarah Palin I wouldn't be too proud.

[JDPriestly]

25. I oppose the use of vulgar language on DU because it reduces the level of conversation from

intelligent and welcoming a variety of opinions to downright lazy and stupid. If you can't say something intelligent, just don't say anything at all.

[mackerel]

27. You first :P

[JDPriestly]

35. My problem with the B word and other similar epithets is that they don't really mean anything

precise. They express an emotion of disgust. But they don't describe the person discussed. They say more about the person using the word and that person's emotions than about the person they are used to describe.

I have seen websites on which the discussion just decays into people calling each other and third persons words that mean that the person writing the word doesn't like the person about whom they are writing but that don't say anything more.

And it gets worse when people use meaningless but mean epithets to respond to others posting on the website. The discussion degenerates into name-calling with names that may mean something say in the animal world, but don't really mean anything when used with regard to a person other than "I don't like you, or him/her." It's a waste.

There are words that are not used in civil society. It's kind of a silly custom, but that is part of our language. I don't think that say German is as restrictive. But if you used the B word in a courtroom, you could find yourself in a lot of trouble. So why should we use it on DU?

It isn't a crime to use the words we consider profane. In our lives we can say what we want depending on the situation. But on a discussion forum, I think we should try to use words that mean something more than "I'm mad and I'm going to use a word that really has no meaning other than to insult someone to prove it."

There are lots of things to say about Palin without using hte B word, lots of more interesting things to say than can be said with the B word. Using the B word is an excuse for contributing to the conversation on DU. There are places to use the B word -- with friends, shouting at the TV, -- lots of places. But DU is better when we ban the word. Speech is not free on DU. We have rules. That's why we have juries.

[BlueJazz]

28. I'd like to see how many DUers are upset with the word. I don't use it (anymore) because it...

... infuriates some on this site. The word doesn't bother me at all and frankly, seems rather mild. Many of us will continue to avoid the word... But remember this> Someday you'll be asked to not speak your mind or trashed for using a totally inoffensive word...to You.
We'll see how that goes.

[BainsBane]

34. If I used a word that offended someone

and they told me, I would say "I'm sorry I offended you," and not use the word again in their presence. I certainly wouldn't then go into their house and proceed to tell them they have no right to be offended by a slur that I felt entitled to use because the only reason to continue using it would be to deliberately cause offense. Speaking my mind doesn't depend on denigrating someone's gender, race, sexuality, etc.. ; I have little doubt that it does for some people.

Words have precise meanings. It's useful to consult a dictionary when in doubt. When someone calls a woman a "bitch," they communicate that they see her as less than human, akin to a female dog. The purpose of language is to communicate. People who use gendered slurs and then insist they don't mean what the dictionary says, what everyone knows they mean, and then insist on using them anyway, communicate quite clearly how they see women.

[BlueJazz]

47. You said >

" It's useful to consult a dictionary when in doubt. When someone calls a woman a "bitch," they communicate that they see her as less than human, akin to a female dog. The purpose of language is to communicate. People who use gendered slurs and then insist they don't mean what the dictionary says, what everyone knows they mean, and then insist on using them anyway, communicate quite clearly how they see women."

The dictionary (Marriam-Webster) says this about bitch:

1: the female of the dog or some other carnivorous mammals

2a : a lewd or immoral woman

b : a malicious, spiteful, or overbearing woman —sometimes used as a generalized term of abuse

I'm NOT saying you're wrong. I'm saying that some of us use the word as in 2b....Akin to calling a Man, A Dick, An asshole, A prick.
2a has NEVER occurred to me (maybe my Australian upbringing)

BUT having said all this stuff, I don't think any of us on DU want to offend other DUers, especially when others feel so strongly about an issue.
I'm a kind person and I'll certainly change my opinion when it's so important to people I associate with and such.

[BainsBane]

56. All of those meanings convey a view of women as inferior

Last edited Sat Jan 24, 2015, 03:49 PM - Edit history (1)

I believe people mean what they say. I see no reason that people on DU are inherently different in that regard, particularly when the issue of that word and others being offensive have been discussed ad nauseum on this site. They know full well what they are doing, as the person above who put it in bold to underscore his intend to offend.

[BlueJazz]

59. I understand. Color me enlightened.

[BainsBane]

31. Can you please label this as a HOF thread?

because we are getting all kinds of crap we shouldn't have to deal with in here. Imagine someone coming into HOF and telling us one of our threads is flame bait? Now even this room has to conform to people who refuse to have their right to demean women challenged.

[yuiyoshida]

39. fixed.

edited to fix.

[seabeyond]

50. of course it is sexist, and being used on a progressive democratic board with a lot of justification

for sexist language.

skinner has said that the b word and p word is sexist. he did not mince words.

and yet.... we have many democrats and progressives, our allies demanding the right to use sexist language and still wear the title of our supporters. they are not our supporters. they may be democrats, and they may vote for the same party, but they do not support women. and that is what the vote to keep it, and their demanding their right to use sexist language tells us.

this is really a no brainer in the hypocrisy we wrap ourselves in.

it also makes our arguments weaker.

[YoungDemCA]

61. Many of these people are not allies, not progressives, and oftentimes, not Democrats

They are merely pretenders. Underneath their protestations of "free speech!" is thinly veiled misogyny (and racism, too-the two often go hand-in-hand, as we have all seen).

[yuiyoshida]

72. Sadly I am begining to see this

as well.

[F4lconF16]

87. +1

They are not our supporters. they may be democrats, and they may vote for the same party, but they do not support women.

This. 1000 times over.

[ismnotwasm]

51. So is calling Dems "pussies"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026125076#post36

[seabeyond]

52. yes. everyone is aware enough to know, when they make the choice to use these words, they are

stating.... fuck you women. sexist and proud of it.

[ismnotwasm]

53. Sexists hiding inside bigots

Who have thought?

[yuiyoshida]

65. Sea, can't we start some kind of post in GD

about this? I mean seriously this has got to change. How can people think that ITS OKAY TO DEMEAN women, at all. WE VOTE GODDAMN IT! WE MATTER!!

[seabeyond]

66. yui, we have had OP after OP in GD. in Meta. in ATA. i know for a fact there was one in ATA

recently about the allowance of the p word. the poster also brought the discussion into HOF and jury hid her OP discussing the acceptance of the p word and the letter she typed to administration. the administration choose not to answer her question, and she ended up with a hide her in HOF with nothing gained, not even an answer from ATA.

people THINK it is ok to demean women because we have a society set up to do just that, at every turn, to allow privilege to set in the hands of men. just as our society sets up blacks to be demean to keep the privilege among the whites.

we matter, when it comes time to vote. we are then shoved to the back of the bus after elections.

since the inception of du3, we know longer matter on this progressive board. the message has been sent out loud and clear. the majority rule. and the majority do not want to limit their privilege or ability to demean and degrade women, generally in jokes and lightheartedness.... lighten up women. feminists have always been a smaller minority. and du3 was set up to be run by the majority. just as republicans promote. no leveling the playing field. we do our battles and discussions on an non level playing field, and this progressive board is ok with that.

[yuiyoshida]

68. God, thats terrible...

MAYBE we need to rattle the Cage, and keep on rattling the cage until it breaks. This is a Democratic board, far different from the Right wingers, and Republicans. We should hold to higher standards. Why else would we attract so many Republican trolls... DID YOU NOTICE how many HIDDEN MESSAGES there were in that posting? Something is giving way...but there HAS to be Respect for us on this board at some point.

If we keep hitting them and hitting them over the head they may not move, but maybe there are other ways to approach this so people START TO UNDERSTAND that what we say matters and what we can do as a force, together matters.

[seabeyond]

69. i pretty much quit talking. i fave finally about gotten all my hide off. prior to that, i was kicked

off du for five hides 11, 12, 13 times. i was the baddest of the bad. rattlin' those cages. i am not the only one targeted. there are others.

and some have just walked. it gets old playing on that uneven playing field with the support of administration.

OP calling us out. rape and death threats. OPs in GD discussing the issue are locked by the hosts, hosts that regulary fight against us, while other supposed meta threads stand.

too many of the good guys have walked.

this is what administration is left with.

a skelton of what du use to be.

i think the final blow was giving all those kicked off as misogynist, or pissed off men from du, a crazy uncle board to continually call us out on the other site, saying ugly, nasty shit.... and the administration was silent.

[yuiyoshida]

70. I don't understand, how this can happen here..

I mean just exactly what do they think the image of Democratic women are today on this board? Is DU over run by Misogynistic guys who want us to sit down and shut up? We have fine example of Democratic leaders like Barbara Boxer and others who contribute greatly to this Country. People are talking about having Hilary Clinton as President, for what? So they can call her the "c"word? SO she can be the "b" word?

Republican men, we know will do this, if there is a woman President, unless its their own. We have strength in numbers on this board. We have a voice here.. I can't believe we are going to be allowed to be minimized by a certain few who haven't figured out that we deserve as much respect as the other gender. Certainly there are Men on this board who support us as well... where did they all go?

[BainsBane]

86. +1 Precisely. nt

[seabeyond]

67. here is hte hide i am talking about that luminous brought to HOF. the OP was hidden. what she was

calling out passed jury. ATA did not answer her question.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125553308

[yuiyoshida]

64. why was there no alert on that posting?

I guess we know now, that despite them using that word, the Jurors probably would have said, hey he has the right to use that word. It demeans women, but that is okay on a Democratic comment board

[ismnotwasm]

73. There was-- it failed

Dems Are Pussies
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6125506

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Referring to Democrats as "pussies" is sexist, especially given nothing has happened.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Jan 22, 2015, 10:29 PM, and voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't feel like being a word cop tonight.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Attack on Democrats and name calling/inappropriate term
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think they were carried away, I cut people slack.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: And here I always thought it referred to pussy cats...I'm on the fence: it the post started "Dems are wimps", I'd let it stay, no problem. I'm letting it stay, with advice to the poster that a different word would be more appropriate

Thank you.

[yuiyoshida]

74. That totally sucks.

All of this makes me sad.

[ismnotwasm]

75. It is sad

There's an under current of biogtry as well-- in the case of things like anti-semitism, a major current. Far too many People either don't understand or don't care.

[yuiyoshida]

77. not to mention xenophobia....

it all seems acceptable to some people. I have seen racist remarks to my posts as well.

[seabeyond]

76. they gained control on du3, since it was set up for their success. but... thru out the net our

young, our very young women and girls are speaking up. thru out the net, their voice is being heard and this carries into their real life. what i see feminism accomplishing today truly inspires me.

truly.... inspires me, with the voice of our young.

they are so young, and yet.... they are so tired of the shit and they are focused, smart, articulate and loud.

du has failed. du has failed women and blacks and gays. it was sit up for the majority, without protecting the minority.

but...

feminism today is more powerful and has more power than i have ever seen. even back in the day. and i am talking world wide.

i saw the uk step up this time. 3, or 4 yrs ago. our girls in the u.s. were a bit behind this time, still playing in the slut walks, 3rd wave, and brainwashed to believe the sex trade and industry was empowering our girls.

not today.

not with the guys they are meeting up with day after day, that think the crude and vulgar at girls and womens expense is a fun game.

i like what i see.

not so much on du. they have enforced the sit down and shut up and if you are being attacked and called out? well, you earned it by not being nice enough.

[yuiyoshida]

78. I don't know if it will help but

I joined the Women's Rights & Issues group as well as Women's World group. I have a lot of groups already, maybe I should carve it down a bit, and focus on what is important.

[Miles Archer]

79. DU used to REGULARLY and WITHOUT EXCEPTION lock posts that used the word

I'm kind of surprised that the policy has changed.

I had a post a L-O-N-G time ago when I referred to a MAN using the word...it was one of the latest Bush / Cheney atrocities...and the thread lit up, over 100 replies, lively discussion, etc etc etc...

...and the moderator at that time locked the thread and said it was "a shame" that I had to ruin such a good post with "that word." I don't know if there is still an expiration on when you can edit the post, but at that time I had exceeded it, and she suggested that "maybe I could repost the thread without that word."

People who know me can guess how I reacted. While I know some people are excruciatingly politically correct, I have NEVER posted anything here that was sexist or disrespectful to women, and having a thread locked for calling a male "Bushie" by that name is something I remember EVERY TIME I see the word used on DU.

Can't even remember the name of that mod but I would liek to think they are no longer a part of the DU community.

[FrodosPet]

98. Can Derek and Romaine use it on the radio?

Is the word acceptable for women and gay men to use as a friendly greeting?

http://www.derekandromaine.com/holiday_stocking

[yuiyoshida]

99. Because they use it doesn't make it right.

You can say "fuck" on the radio and Tv.. and probably get away with it, but that doesn't make it acceptable by the general audience. People still use it as a shock word, as comedians have in the past, like George Carlin.

The point being here, does that word belong where there is intelligent conversations going on, on a board like this? I don't think so. Run a poll in GD if you want to, I would imagine that the majority would probably still feel its offensive.

[seabeyond]

100. the poster has plenty of posts in this thread, to educate him about the harm, in the use of the word

he is merely posting in support of the use and excusing and validating the use of sexist slurs.

[FrodosPet]

102. You are incorrect

Personally, I do not use the word, and I actually agree that people should refrain from using it.

That said, it seems that making a big deal of the word risks alienating a number of people who, for better or worse, have adopted it as a friendly social greeting. The earnest condemnation gives off a language police vibe.

[seabeyond]

103. what is being called out has nothing to do with any type of friendly social greeting.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

104. Yes, please stop alienating all of the people who use "Bitch" as a friendly social greeting.

And when they're alienated, from HOF or from all of DU or even from the entire Democratic Party, where are they going to go, and what are they going to do? They will gather together in their shared alienation and develop into a dangerous counter-progressive group of once-friendly greeters. Did you ever consider that? I didn't think so.

[yuiyoshida]

105. I was going to say...

Won't they go to the Republican party? It seems they accept that kind of thing!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

107. They'll become alienated once-friendly social greeting terrorists.

Too dreadful to contemplate.

[gcomeau]

101. Curious

Is it the fact that it is derogatory and insulting that makes it unacceptable, or is there some additional trait to that specific word that makes it *especially* unacceptable? I'm aware of words that do have such associated additional baggage that places them in that especially unacceptable category (both those with a racial component and those with specific applications to a gender)... I've never seen how "bitch" qualified for that category however.


If the objection is entirely that it's derogatory and insulting...granted. But sometimes that's exactly what the subject matter calls for (I feel no need to moderate my language when speaking about the torture architects operating under the previous president for example). And if you're trying to insult someone you kind of have to use insulting terminology.

[yuiyoshida]

106. You do understand that insulting someone

lowers the conversation down to a lower level of discourse. The idea is to communicate with your counter part, not insult them or berate them. Whats the point of a discussion board, if people don't discuss things, but fling Monkey poo at each other??

And the word "Bitch" is used to DEMEAN and Belittle women. Yes its used by people who breed dogs. Yes its used on the title of a magazine, but IN general its main purpose is to demean women.

[gcomeau]

108. And where exactly on the forum...

...do you suppose I'm going to be engaged in personal discourse with one of the architects of Bush's torture program (again, for example)? As opposed to simply referencing them? (At which time, I will describe them using any insulting terminology I feel is appropriate)

And all insults are used to DEMEAN and Belittle. So I'm still left trying to figure out what property of an insult makes it's very utterance anathema on the forums.

[yuiyoshida]

109. where DO you engage

in personal discourse with one of the architects of Bush's torture program? I would suppose you contact the White House, or protest in front of it. Democratic Underground doesn't have a lot of FIRST HAND CONTACT with actual people in power. Maybe one or two people who look in our little website, but personal contact? Never...

so we vent here. That's what this place was all about when I joined. People Joined when Bush took the White House thanks to the Supreme Court. What could Democrats do? The thing do was come and meet up here with other Democrats and scream about it.. yell about it..VENT about it.

That's what this place was for. Then as time went on, groups sprouted up. Women's groups, all kinds of groups... compartmentalized.. allowing people to gain some support for fighting back the crap that was being thrown at us..all of it.

I don't understand what you are saying in your second paragraph. I think we both agree that the word "bitch" is just as demeaning as the "c" word (women's body parts) or the "n"word.. (racial) or the "F" word for Gays..etc. There are some women on here who are a TON smarter than I am. I went to High School and some college, but had to drop out cause I HAD a choice of being in debt for the rest of my life, or quitting College to get a job to be able to afford a place to live, and food to eat.

Some choices huh?

[gcomeau]

111. I don't.

You are, I find myself hoping, aware that direct conversation with a person in not the only circumstances which would involve you using words to describe them?

I think we both agree that the word "bitch" is just as demeaning as the "c" word (women's body parts) or the "n"word.. (racial) or the "F" word for Gays..etc.

No, we don't agree at all. Using a coarse term for a female body part as an insult carries the unavoidable implication that there is something vile and demeaning about the female body. As such its use, no matter who it is directed at, is inappropriate.

Similar factors apply to the other terms you listed.

Calling a person a female *dog* on the other hand does not demean all women in any way whatsoever. It questionably demeans female dogs... but the only female human beings it demeans are the specific ones it is directed at.

And as we have established that is rather the point of an insult, it would appear to simply be serving its purpose in that regard.

[boston bean]

112. blocked....

Calling a person a female *dog* on the other hand does not demean all women in any way whatsoever. It questionably demeans female dogs...

wth??

[yuiyoshida]

113. wow I can't even believe that was said..

What a hateful thing to say.

[ismnotwasm]

114. That is one of the strangest justifications for calling a woman a bitch I've ever heard

It doesn't insult women-- it insults female dogs. The failure of logic and common sense in that statement is epic.

[BainsBane]

122. The logic is quite clear

It demeans the dog by associating it with women, a lower form of life. I read the comment as a clear statement that he sees women as inferior to dogs.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

115. and this is the attitude you suggest for a progressive, liberal, Democratic Web Site?

interesting, that.

[ismnotwasm]

116. Very interesting I'd say.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

117. curious, even

[ismnotwasm]

118. Even once one parses out the varied implications, and comes to a solid conclusion

Still quite curious

[Tuesday Afternoon]

119. yes, very odd ... I know I have come to a very solid conclusion

[yuiyoshida]

120. should this be its own thread?

I think exposure is healthy.. A LITTLE sunlight on this.. or perhaps a huge spotlight!

[Skittles]

121. not a big fan of it, because it seems very gender-specific

all too often women are called bitches just for daring to assert any authority

[liberal N proud]

128. Never was

It used to get your post deleted. But when you rely on the jury system, sometimes, you draw a sad bunch of idiots who for one reason or another let the crap slide.

This is where the jury system is flawed.

[yuiyoshida]

129. Agreed..and will say more..

I have seen hate messages slide through, and why was that? Because, the Jurors thought they had a right to say it, and the women deserved it. Yes, the Jury system is very flawed.