Breaking: Man Admits That Men Simply Don't Trust Women

[ismnotwasm]

Hold onto your butts: a man has admitted that generally speaking, it takes longer for men to believe what a woman says than it would if a man said it. And… exhale. Let's breathe this one out.

Who is this brave soul, and what exactly did he say? His name is Damon Young, the co-founder and editor of VSB Magazine. In an essay for HuffPo republished from a blog called Very Smart Brothas, Young admitted that he doesn't trust his wife, basically:

Panama and I were talking about the Rolling Stone story controversy. It eventually segued to Cosby, which then segued into a realization that there's a common thread in each of these types of stories and the tenor of the conversations surrounding them.

Trust. Well, the lack thereof. Generally speaking, we (men) do not believe things when they're told to us by women. Well, women other than our mothers or teachers or any other woman who happens to be an established authority figure. Do we think women are pathological liars? No. But, does it generally take longer for us to believe something if a woman tells it to us than it would if a man told us the exact same thing? Definitely!

This conversation is how, after five months of marriage, eight months of being engaged, and another year of whatever the hell we were doing before we got engaged, I realized I don't trust my wife

http://jezebel.com/breaking-man-admits-that-men-simply-dont-trust-women-1692464599

[guillaumeb]

1. One man represents all men?

Or one man with trust issues represents one man with trust issues?

If this one man does not trust his wife perhaps they need counseling. Without knowing the man or his wife who is qualified to judge?

Having read the very short piece I do not see any reason to qualify this one person as the official spokesperson for all men. I do not trust his judgment. Now, having labeled him as untrustworthy, can we label his remarks as untrustworthy?

[ismnotwasm]

2. This is not about relationship 'issues' exactly

For instance, I have a very good marriage. We trust one another.

This is about a generalized mistrust about the word of women compared to generalized trust of the word of men. In other words, men are considered more trustworthy, or more 'stable' if you will, while women are considered emotional and reactive. No generalization is 100%, of course.

No article on the inherent distrust of women by men could be complete with a mention of Yashar Ali's 2011 essay for HuffPo about gaslighting, which explained the commonly used manipulation tactic toward women, drawn from a 1944 film of the same name, that undercuts a woman's every assertion that her feelings and experiences are valid and true. It can be very subtle — a "you're so sensitive" here, a "Calm down, you're overreacting," there — to more serious emotional abuse, such as, as Ali notes, "No one will ever want you."

What woman alive has not experienced this in some form or another, is not intimately aware of having her authority questioned, her opinions ignored, doubted, or silenced, her feelings mocked, belittled, or dismissed? Young notes, that, when it comes to interpersonal conflict with his wife, "if she's on eight, I assume the situation is really a six."

At its essence, this is a form of emotional policing that tells us how we should or shouldn't feel, and reminds us that we are not to be taken as seriously as men, who have the final say in all matters.

Hell, I am grateful at this point when I remark on something I've researched and reported extensively and know to be correct and a man in my presence concedes, "Yeah, that could be true." In my real every day life, men take other men's opinions as facts, and seem more likely to regard women's opinions as suggestions

[guillaumeb]

3. I was responding only to the information in the link

And the implicit claim that this man speaks for and/or is representative of all men.

But I will agree that I have personally witnessed what you talk about where some men do not really take women seriously. Or ignore their opinions. But many times those same men also ignore opinions from anyone whose opinions are in conflict with theirs. Perhaps this is more a "type a personality" syndrome than a male syndrome.

[salib]

4. Yep. False equivalency Gaslighting.

"I have personally witnesses what you talk about"..."But many times those same men..."

I.e., I agree that this is what you "think" you see. But it is not really what is going on.

Not even clever. Just pedantic.

[guillaumeb]

5. how do I distinguish between what I think I see

and what is really going on?

Any time I witness any interaction I filter what I see through experience.

But to say that "men" trust men more than women speaks for all men at all times. I have a problem with that type of statement.

[ismnotwasm]

6. Why?

Given historical as well as current sexism?

[guillaumeb]

8. No doubt that sexism exists in my mind

but blanket statements do not prove/solve anything.

[ismnotwasm]

15. But they can start a decent conversation

Rather than argue the statment, argue against the point, providing it's clear to you. I personally don't do feminism 101, to explain why the author would bother with a blanket statment (the article itself is more nuanced) One would have to have a basic understanding of feminist philosophy, at least a working knowledge of basic points, or all that would be seen in the article is a blanket statement, followed by misunderstanding.

We run into this often and its really too bad.

[seabeyond]

17. "I personally don't do feminism 101, " AH HAAhAAaahaahahahaaaha

I personally don't do feminism 101,

i just said the same and i do not think i have ever used that argument. lol. so..... there

[ismnotwasm]

23. Heh.

[guillaumeb]

19. if your point was to start a conversation I agree with it.

And I would never try to argue that sexism does not exist at high levels. I have a wife and two adult daughters and we have talked about how sexism affects all aspects of their lives. (And by extension obviously my life also.) Denying the existence of sexism would be like denying the existence of gravity. And yes I do know that my view is not universally shared.

Even in the social justice group I belong to there is/was an obvious reluctance on the part of some women to engage in discussion at our planning meetings. Our solution is/was to rotate the position of chair at every meeting to encourage people to feel free to speak. (I am sure that we could do more but this seemed to be a start and we have received positive feedback from the membership.)

That said, how does one strike a balance between the need for education about this problem with the need to not blame everyone with a "Y" chromosome? THAT is my problem with blanket statements.

Thanks for the dialogue.

[seabeyond]

20. it is a thing that men do. (that is general, not ALL). it is a thing women allow. (that is general,

not ALL)

you can start with actually addressing the discussion and not creating a false argument to waste time on.

do you get it yet?

[guillaumeb]

24. yes to all three

sometimes titles can cause people to skip over things.

like the way many men channel change I guess.

[ismnotwasm]

22. Let's take a look at one article

I had chosen a study, but self deleted because it would have taken too long to make my point.

Look at this based on names alone

The Old Boys’ club appears a long way from extinction in academic science. That’s the disturbing finding of five Yale University researchers who, a few days back, published a study spotlighting the university world’s stubborn gender gap on hiring.

The study’s most embarrassing finding showed that a group of biology, chemistry, and physics professors favored a male job candidate “John” over a female “Jennifer” with identical qualifications for a fictitious science lab manager position. The professors’ bias cut across both gender lines and field of study, with women just as likely as men, and biology professors as likely as their physics or chemistry counterparts to favor the male.

“We are not suggesting that these biases are intentional or stem from a conscious desire to impede the progress of women in science,” the study’s co-authors concluded in “Science Faculty’s Subtle Gender Biases Favor Male Students,” published online September 24 in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).

Past research indicates that the behavior reflects repeated exposure to pervasive cultural stereotypes that cause subtle gender biases to linger in even the most egalitarian individuals despite decreases in overt sexism over the past few decades, especially among those with the highest education levels.

http://www.genengnews.com/insight-and-intelligence/women-still-have-to-prove-themselves-in-academic-hiring/77899695/

Now one could argue inherent sexism here right? But trust has a lot to do with even ingrained perceptions. Why would a modern science institution prefer a male name over a female one?

[guillaumeb]

25. excellent point

especially:

"Past research indicates that the behavior reflects repeated exposure to pervasive cultural stereotypes that cause subtle gender biases to linger in even the most egalitarian individuals despite decreases in overt sexism over the past few decades, especially among those with the highest education levels. "

The nature vs nurture argument. I am on the side of nurture because
1) there have been some few matriarchal cultures and
2) because I would not like to think I am inherently or genetically pre-disposed to sexism

I appreciate your point.

I had a discussion with my oldest child last year. There was an editorial management position opening at her workplace. She was unsure of applying, stating that she was reluctant to apply because the job involved giving direction and hiring/firing decisions. (She is 29) My advice was that if she was the best qualified she owed it to herself (primarily) and the company (secondarily) to apply. She applied and was awarded the position.

She is very intelligent and very capable in her job. Her reluctance bothered me because it seemed to me like self de-selection. (If that sounds coherent.) But she is happy with the new position and the increase in pay and responsibility. Did her reluctance come from our home, attitudes she picked up from us, or from her limited exposure to school and job?

So yes, I do understand personally and intellectually the problem with sexism. As well as a non-victim can.

[ismnotwasm]

28. Yes

I think when we have children, or have enough exposure and influence to children male or female, it's easier if we are able to be invested somehow in their education, their goal and dreams. This doesn't happen with everyone of course. Watching young women up hesitate to reach for the stars and wonder if it's because she is a she, is a very good thing to do. Just as watching a boy pick a profession out of a misplaced sense of masculinity would be distubing to the aware parent, or responsible adult. I think you gave her the best advise possible.

Interestingly, since I work at a teaching hospital, before my eyes, not only have I seen the number of female resident increase, I know medical schools are at 50/50, but also the number of female attendings, fellows, surgeons and tenured professors in medicine. What tends to happen it the gender gap becomes wider the more power the position entails. This continues to be a significant problem, what is encouraging is the increasing awareness it is a problem--literally--for society. There are studies coming out showing a equilatarian workplace is a healthier, more productive one when it comes to gender.

(I know I enjoy the general diversity at my workplace, it adds richness to the culture and greater understanding of points of view. For instance, I can listen to female Jewish persons originally from Israel discuss politics with a male Mulsim originally from Pakistan, and the world doesn't end)

[seabeyond]

29. +1... nt

[salib]

7. You mean that based on what someone else says, you might doubt what you see and you conclusions?

Exactly.

Please do not do it to others.

[guillaumeb]

9. Not what I said

This is the crux of my argument:
But to say that "men" trust men more than women speaks for all men at all times. I have a problem with that type of statement.

This is not a denial that sexism exists.

[salib]

10. It is what you said.

I quoted you.

Please, stop the gaslighting.


Now, in terms of the "crux" of your argument, That is a quite the razor's edge you now require of the OP, that somehow it refers to an absolute that "speaks for all men at all times." That is a very unreasonable requirement. An all or nothing requirement. Nothing like setting up a straw man, right?

However, I suggest it might be a chance for introspection on your part. Exactly why did you immediately turn to that generalization and strict requirement that this apply to all me at all times. Me thinks you might believe it applies to you. Why?

Are you really so unsure about other's view of you that you have to jump to the defensive?

[guillaumeb]

13. interesting framing of my position

that does not acknowledge what I said.

What is the point of any article that posits that ALL PEOPLE of any category think and/or behave in a certain way? Or a post that treats what one person says as proof that this applies to all people?

Reductionist and useless point.

[seabeyond]

18. nobody gives a shit about your "all" argument. what part of that are YOU not getting

[salib]

31. seabeyond, he must really think he is clever

And has found some epiphany here.

It is strange.

Or, he is just stuffing straw in his "man".

[seabeyond]

32. i swear to god, the best of men have such a challenge seeing the wrongs. a challenge

to the status quo.

once he actually got beyond the "all" fuggin' argument, he actually had something to say.

[seabeyond]

12. "how do I distinguish between what I think I see" maybe LISTEN to women tell you our

experience backed up with studies and facts

[guillaumeb]

14. I am willing to do so,

but there were no studies and/or facts cited here. Just a short opinion piece by one man. When a writer equates one man's opinion as somehow being "proof" that all men share the opinion I will question the point of the article.

[seabeyond]

16. then do the damn research instead of continuing your damn dismissal.

this is not a fuggin' unknown. i will say again, this seems to be a perfect example. this is a feminist forum that no longer waste our time with the continued education of every male soul on this planet, that wants us to explain, feminiism 101.

if you are not willing to say .... hey, these women are giving me something to think about. i am so fuggin interested, i am gonna see if i can prove them wrong or learn something.

not hey women.... do all my research for me, spend all your time, devote to me me me to educate you.....

do the fuggin research. nothing fuggin new here.

[freshwest]

11. This sounds familiar. The discussion of the OP is over now. n/t

[Warpy]

26. And just how many women had to accuse Cosby before the story got any traction?

Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems women face, that men don't listen and when they're forced to by circumstance, don't believe what they hear.

It's the opposite that should be true.

[YoungDemCA]

35. There are still men who think that the *dozens* of women who have accused Cosby are lying

Presumably for the $$$ and fame and to destroy the career of one (famous, wealthy, powerful) man. Because we can't ever trust those sly, scheming, shrill, manipulative women, can we?

[mike_c]

27. the bro is just having the first of many, many...

...WTF moments to come in his married life, LOL. Most of us are not born wise, and the process of acquiring wisdom has much in common with sausage making.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

30. guess what, dude. this woman does not trust men. at all.

especially white men of a certain demographic.

[JustAnotherGen]

33. I'm back on topic and here to say

My husband read this article and he agree - there's a lot of truth in it. And he doesn't need a 'lesson' when he had a mother, has two sisters, nieces, cousins, very good friends who are women, and a wife.

If it was one of US - he would believe it. But he's learned over the years (especially since knowing me) that he has to stop second guessing and questioning the experiences of OTHER women.

It's a work in progress - and the man who wrote this article was brave to do so.