I think it's important that everyone in our group knows what we are up against.

[boston bean]

I don't suggest responding to this META post, and I will not even give a link to it or identify the poster.

However, this is a glimpse at the small but vocal group of bullies, true agenda. Have your say here in the safety of our group. I want to emphasize this is just the false accustions of a small minority of the actual members of DU who are carrying out a personal vendetta against our group. The greater majority of DUers are either with us or have no opinion or don't even know about any of this crap. Don't be fooled by their brash outrageous, boisterous, false postings. We have support, plenty of support.

59. It's a pretty important question. I think you nailed part of the answer

As did several other folks.

The other thing implied and not said by several folks is, at what point do groups become so toxic that they are making DU suck and thus should be disbanded and several of the most disruptive members ppr'd.

We all get the controversy of having a rtkba group on a Democratic site, but the strong negative reactions to the HoF group, particularly compared to the other feminism groups is striking.

A large portion of the DU community seems to be saying to HoF "As far as being good DU citizens is concerned, you are doing it wrong". Instead of getting the message, the denizens of that group keep doubling down on their toxic behavior. Several of the folks from that group also seem to say on occasion that they want their group left alone. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. HoF is not its own website, it's part of DU, and yes, the rest of us can comment if we think you are doing it wrong, more so if we think you are doing it wrong egregiously.

When you have numbers of folks trashing that group like HoF has, when you have regular arbitrary and capricious blockings of other DUers who follow links into the group or some who have been blocked for mysterious reasons, in fact when becoming blocked from that group starts being worn as a medal by DU members as it has with HoF, when most of the divisive and ugly threads on DU seem to involve the members of that group, that group clearly has major issues.

I don't see this ending in kumbaya. The members of HoF have developed a persecution complex about how their group is perceived instead of recognizing that if it's this many DUers, it is they who have the issue. The issue is not the 50+ DUers who have trashed their group, not the over dozen DUers in good standing that they have blocked. Incidentally, the number of folks trashing HoF plus the number blocked just about equals subscribed members of the group. That's a lot of negativity, which brings me back to my original point, when you look at this in its entirety, at what point do you say these folks are utterly failing at being good members of DU. At what point do you say that instead of using the privilege of a safe haven for positive communication, they are instead using it as a silo for group think, development of persecution complexes and divisiveness.

[sufrommich]

1. I commented in the thread.I also know we have

plenty of support.

[seabeyond]

2. yes. i have my eyes on you. have a nice day

yes

said repeatedly.

[Little Star]

3. They just never stop. Can not let go, like a dog with a bone.....

Over and over again, meta thread after meta thread they OP and respond in.

Sooner or later the admins will not be able to ignore this harassment that occurs almost daily usually involving the same user names.

Salem Witch Trials by internet board. If they could burn us at the stake they surely would. It is scary how much hate they have.

[seabeyond]

9. mobbing. really, it is a real thing. tomorrow i am going to do more research and see if i can lay

it out. very interesting. i read a good ten or more sites on it, but didnt find one particular one that laid it out as a whole.

[boston bean]

4. Here's another... showing the tactics of those who want to shut down our group

and ban our members:

73. Are you kidding? It's great being on the HoF blocked list But I think your group doesn't belong here

In fact, there are now so many good DUers blocked from your group, it's like a medal.

I understand there are now people deliberately posting crazy and disruptive things in your group so you will block them. Everyone wants to be on the HoF block list! Lol.

They sure are letting it all hang out.

[sufrommich]

5. Yep. nt

[Alenne]

11. He is letting it hang out because the admin has allowed

this harassment to go on for far too long. It is way beyond ridiculous and it involves the same people over and over again.

If you put the people from old and in the way's op on ignore, meta would have about 10 posts. It's HOF now but it will be some other group later. They are a group of bullies.

[sufrommich]

12. Apparently that's not going to happen until

they start shouting "Burn Them !"

[seabeyond]

15. yes. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

6. You have got to be kidding me

I read far more in the gender forums than I ever will post - but I don't see where people gang up on folks. If you are a misogynist and come in here popping off talking points from A Handmaids Tale - then you have it coming. That's not a mob mentality - that's not putting up with nonsense.

[LiberalLoner]

7. They do seem to be pushing for banning us.

I know I make many uncomfortable when I tell the truth of what I've experienced, but I choose to tell the truth in the hopes that our society will change for the better.

I long for a world where 1 in 3 girls are not molested before they turn 18. I long for a world where there aren't as many female soldiers being raped. I long for a world where domestic violence isn't such a common occurence.

If that makes me a bad DU'er then so be it.

[boston bean]

8. You're a great DUer! As are all in this group.

What is happening is extremely unfortunate. I'm with you all, SISTERS!

[LiberalLoner]

10. Thank you! So are you!

[seabeyond]

13. " I'm with you all, SISTERS!" yup. and LL "If that makes me a bad DU'er then so be it"

you got that right.

[sufrommich]

14. .....

[Little Star]

16. Liberal Loner, what you just wrote is why it is so important for this group to be a safe haven...

I like you, was battered and abused and have many stories to share with the group to further my growth and maybe help others.

Many women are victims of incest, rape, assault, battering, forced into prostitution, sold as sex slaves, verbally abused and god only knows even some worse stuff....

People like you and me who have experienced some of this in real life deserve this place to share our experiences and ask for help and opinions without outsiders trolling this forum looking to discredit, make fun of or accused of having a persecution complex or crusader complex and dragging it out into the public domain.

Our group should be given the same respect and privacy that was rightfully demanded by others for the mental health group.

It's quite ironic that those who are attacking us now, fully understood this concept just few short months ago.

They all really need to Cease and Desist with their attacks on women.

Bad enough we have to fight off the Republican Agenda against our own bodies without having to be battered in safe haven group on a democratic site.

Here's a I know exactly what you are talking about.

[LiberalLoner]

17. Thank you, back at you!

Sometimes I think it's too easy for people who have never experienced the level of trauma we have, to make fun of us and dismiss our stories.

[laconicsax]

18. Oh, but Little Star, haven't you heard? You just have a "crusader complex."

It's that well-known psychological condition that isn't mentioned in any scholarly papers or even on the American Psychology Association website. If you want to learn more about the "crusader complex," you'll have to read right-wing articles on why the Palestinians are imagining examples of Israelis perpetrating violence against them or how * was doing God's work by invading Iraq.

[laconicsax]

19. When I read that guy's posts, all I hear is...

"WAAAAHHHH!!! Why won't HoF just acknowledge what a super awesome feminist I am? WAAAAAHHH!!!"

He's the archetypal "ignored nice guy" who can't stand and ends up lashing out because he isn't lavished with praise for believing that women are people too.

[hlthe2b]

20. I just want to recognize that there were a few DUers--not regulars in our group-- who did stand up

to this very ugly posting. To them, (should they happen upon this thread), I truly thank them. No one here wants "SPECIAL" treatment, only EQUAL treatment. No group on DU should be subject to that type of bullying attack.

[seabeyond]

21. " I truly thank them." agreed. yes. and i am down with that. nt

[laconicsax]

22. +1

[boston bean]

25. Absolutely! Thank you!

[Little Star]

36. +1, I consider them very brave for speaking up. And I thank then very much for doing so...

Right is right.

It takes a lot of courage to speak out about "anything" they see as unfair, even when they speak out against the way we in HoF may have mis-handled some things. Good on those, who act upon their courage in a honest, constructive way.

Due to mis-understanding, we, HoF are not always right in our approach either. And neither are they.

I pray that all the DU feminist groups will some day over-come our Hatfields and McCoy type disagreements and find a way to work together for the good of all women.

I must admit that would be easier if the men in LGBT would leave us alone to work out our own problems.

We women are really all in the same sinking boat. I hope we can all make it to shore safety together.

[hlthe2b]

23. Just so we keep perspective: 3 people thus far have trashed the PET Group

The PET group? really?

So, for whatever that is worth.... .

[seabeyond]

24. hl, i do not care.

we have had plenty of non group users pop in today to participate in a thread they are interested in. which enlivens our conversation. and i appreciate that. it makes the forum more fun, hearing from others. i am not concerned about a number.

[hlthe2b]

26. No, of course not... I just find it interesting that some would do that...

And yes, I think we are actually benefiting from several who are offended by what they are seeing and come to check for themselves. I say a hearty welcome to them as well.

[seabeyond]

27. yup. and

the ones doing it as a game.

so fuckin what.

like the trolls that come over here and then run back and giggle about getting one over us. not playing. easy to win, when i am not playing.... lol

[Texasgal]

28. Goodness...

People are coming positively unhinged!

I have some advice for the whiners :

If you don't like the contents of Hof... don't read it.

If you don't like the posters of Hof....Ignore them.

If you don't like the rules set up in Hof... don't participate.

It's really that simple. You control your own experience. It's not that hard.

PS..I suggest the whiners and flamers take this advice because we are not going anywhere, sorry.

[patrice]

29. If people can't do that, it suggests that power is a higher priority than

anything else, or whatever their purported issue-goal is.

Seeking power for power's sake is a trait of fascism.

There isn't much one can do in response to that, but just ignore it one's self.

[Flying Squirrel]

30. I find it interesting

that the person who seems to be advocating for the dissolution of the HoF group because of a supposed "persecution complex," does not seem to recognize the inherent irony. The fact that this person is calling for your group to be disbanded and "disruptive" members of such group PPR`d is an attack upon your group. This puts you on the defensive. How can that be seen as anything other than persecution? His post proves the very thing he is claiming doesn`t exist, really does.

[boston bean]

35. Interesting point Flying Squirrel

Thank you for post. Sometimes the feeding frenzy gets some caught up in it and they can't see the complete irony in their postings.

[BlueIris]

31. I think a lot of this would stop if our only response to the hateful in Meta

was to ignore them, and our only response to them in here was blocking.

They are sad, pathetic, attention seeking jerks who want to keep spewing this garbage to get their rocks off. They do not deserve anyone's attention.

I want to focus on discussing feminism. I don't want this group to go the way of the other one. I say ignore the ignorant and keep our energy on our own threads here.

[boston bean]

32. I can understand this sentiment.

However, this was such an egregious example of the abuse what we face on a daily basis that I felt the group should be allowed to discuss this here and support one another in our safe haven group.

I agree that threads such as this should be kept to a minimum.

[BlueIris]

33. To me, the haters aren't worth it.

That's all I'm saying.

[boston bean]

34. I've felt the same way and then I've felt the other.

Ignore, it gets worse, don't ignore it gets worse. It is escalating now matter which way it's been dealt with.

I would rather hold my head up and at the very least allow our group to support one another.

Again, these sorts of threads here in our group should remain at a minimum.

[Hatchling]

40. Yes. I totally agree.

I say ignore the ignorant and keep our energy on our own threads here.

While we may think we are only defending our own we are actually rewarding their behavior with our responses to them. They don't care what we say, they just want to provoke a response.

We must stop rewarding their attention seeking behavior.

[Scout]

41. but bullies don't stop when you ignore them.

bullies stop when you punch them one right in the snot locker, and then kick them when they are down.

THAT's when bullies stop.

can we do that over the internet? no.

do we need to reply to them? no.

do we need to know what they are trying to do? yes.

they are trying to shut this forum down and get us all PPR'd. they are searching on DU1 and DU2 to dredge up 5 and 10 year old posts, to take out of context, and try to smear us. they LIE and no one gives a shit. the make false accusations no one gives a shit. it's not attention from US they are seeking ... they are seeking it from the crowd who follows the cool kids, who are afraid to disagree with them in public because then they themselves will be swarmed and next thing you know, suddenly they will be labeled "vile transphobes" or some such made up shit.

do i want our group/forum to be full of their shit? no. but i don't think by US ignoring them, will anything stop.

[seabeyond]

42. +1

you said it very very well. thank you

[sufrommich]

43. The thing is, this isn't really about

Seabeyond,porn,transphobia,S.E.Cupp etc. It's about the Great Feminist Forum War of Feb. 2012. It doesn't make any sense to argue whatever outrage they're cooking up this time, it's the same members who were fighting in the Feminist forum. The only thing that's going to make them happy would be the end of HoF. They've made that clear. My vote goes to ignore them from now on.

[CrispyQ]

66. Hmmmm...

"they are trying to shut this forum down and get us all PPR'd. they are searching on DU1 and DU2 to dredge up 5 and 10 year old posts, to take out of context, and try to smear us. they LIE and no one gives a shit. the make false accusations no one gives a shit. it's not attention from US they are seeking ... they are seeking it from the crowd who follows the cool kids, who are afraid to disagree with them in public because then they themselves will be swarmed and next thing you know, suddenly they will be labeled "vile transphobes" or some such made up shit."

This sounds like typical republican behavior. It's a shame it's allowed on this site.

[gaspee]

37. It's actually those posts in META

That drew me here. I said, boy, that group they keep bitching about sounds good to me!

I didn't know about all the stuff that went down that led to the formation of this group. I'd kind of given up on DU because of the casual misogyny that is considered acceptable on this site. It's basically a reflection of our women-hating culture at large. So, I thankfully, missed all the drama. I don't know the players or the history or the factions. I don't want to.

I come here to read the news and to read some insightful comentary.

In an election year, this is the best place to keep up with the news so I read here. With a huge ignore list on the old DU, it was tolerable. Now, not quite so much, but I am slowly rebuilding my ignore list.

[seabeyond]

39. "those posts in META That drew me here. " lmfao

i love you. that is a hoot.

ya... i would prefer not to know about the mess, too. and, election year is coming up. i agree. du is a good place to stay on top of stuff.

but i love

"those posts in META That drew me here. " just cause it makes you so unique

[Hatchling]

38. BB, isn't this just bringing META into our group?

I don't like it.

IMO we should just leave these people alone. These posts are fly bait, and only serve to try to provoke HOF members so they can be PP'Rd. Our posts get hidden, rarely theirs.

If we leave them alone, their attack posts will become an echo chamber and it will become truly obvious what is going on.

Each time one of us responds the "swarm" is all over that post re-interpreting it in "swarm speak" to mean something that it does not mean, trying to make us look ugly. And it suceeds, because not everyone is educated on vitriol with which we have been inundated and so do not understand how we are provked.

When you posted this, I went over to META to look up the thread and realized it was one of those that I had hidden.

My advice is when provoked, don't respond. If a thread is too tempting, hide the damn thing.

[Little Star]

44. As Scout mentioned above....

"do we need to know what they are trying to do? yes."

Some of us rarely go into meta. And as the old saying goes " keep your friends close but your enemies closer".

I personally think the way BB brought this in here with no links and no names was a good way to make those of us who may not been aware of what they want to happen to us and our group was a good thing to do.

It certainly is better than interacting in those nasty meta threads, or ignoring what they are up to, imho.

Yet, I can see your point.

[hlthe2b]

47. I don't see this being anything but an atypical occurrence.. We really do want to leave Meta in Meta

I think this was such an egregious example--calling for our group and our voices removal from DU--that I think BB felt our group participants needed to be aware.

That said, I do think for many, that hiding or avoiding Meta may be a good idea--especially if seeing all or some of our group as a focus for hateful comments is not something that you can put aside. That is the value of a safe haven here, after all. On a personal level, I have not felt like my responding to much of what is said does much good and have tried to be exceedingly limited in any responses. I intend to limit those even more. It is hard not to interject at times, especially when one's statements, intent or actions are being misrepresented, but I think we have to be aware of what may only make things worse.

And, yes, I think drawing the line as finely as possible between what internecine arguments may be going on outside the group and the group itself, is a very good thing to do. Finding that line is the challenge.

[sufrommich]

49. I know it's hard to ignore,but I

think it's like not engaging with a stalker at this point.

[hlthe2b]

51. yes... I don't disagree.

[Little Star]

54. amen!

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. Some post complaints about HoF in meta because of a not unjustified expectation

... that they'll be banned if they bring them directly to you.

IMHO, banning posters doesn't bring civility, it exports incivility.

I offer a friendly suggestion; a moratorium on bans, for any reason, for the next month. It might be contentious in the group for awhile, but the problems will stop metastasizing and give you the opportunity to change hearts and minds rather than ostracizing them.

FWIW I oppose shutting down any group for any reason except disuse.

[seabeyond]

46. you are really leaving out the factor of some posters purposely coming in here to be disruptive

what is that? i would NOT do it to your forum. nor would i expect or ask that you allow me to be disruptive so you look good to those trying to create a problem. it is not " not unjustified"

the people know exactly what they are doing. no other protected group would be asked to suck it up. nor would they probably allow you to walk into their forum with a post like yours. come on lumberjack. i personally feel this is a silly post. but then, that will probably give justification for me being a .... oh, meanie or bully.

[sufrommich]

48. There is no "metastasizing ".

There isn't some huge contingent of DUers who have problems with HoF, it's the same few people over and over again. The fact that they're loud and busy isn't proof of anything other than some people are developing a creepy obsession with HoF. Gosh, thanks for your concern, but I think we'll be OK.

[Little Star]

57. What you said^^^^^^^^^

[Scout]

63. what sufrommich said!

woohoo, excellent post!

[seabeyond]

64. hey

i am so thrilled...

you are



here.

[hlthe2b]

50. I take your comments as sincere, but despite your friendly suggestion,

decisions on bannings have not been impulsive and usually follow a warning or warnings. Further, we have reversed at least one where we felt that the issue at hand was amicably resolved to the satisfaction of group and poster. HOF has banned far less than other groups that have been or frequently are subject to considerable disruption, including the Barack Obama Group and LGBT. I feel strongly that those two safe haven groups have been judicious in their blocks and we have strived to do the same.

So, I think that that will be the extent of my justification for our bans, which have been absolutely necessary to avoid a total derailing of the group and its purpose for its existence. Those who were banned had the opportunity to appeal to the host, but have nearly all chosen instead to post in Meta. Obviously we don't find that pleasant and is clearly not the way to work out a dispute if one is sincere about trying to effect a reinstatement. Some among our group feel we don't ban enough or quickly enough, but we do seek a balance that is fair and effective. The bottom line is that the group and meeting the needs of that group come first.

Whatever others wish to say about us is their responsibility. I can assure you that we have been hearing from DUers that are less frequent among the voices in Meta or GD, or even new to DU, who have been horrified at the accusations enough to come and check for themselves. And when they do, they often decide to stay and contribute. As with many things, angry voices do not always sway people to their opinions. I invite those who are interested in Feminism and women's issues in general to come and decide for themselves. This will be maintained as an environment where civil conversation can be fostered. It is inevitable, however, that we will continue to block those who wish to disrupt and violate the basic SOP for the group.

[Kali]

52. sorry to butt in here

but I got sucked in on a different thread here today so I am having a look around - I don't normally hang out here but I have been watching all the crap from the meta perspective for months.

your advice and that of others may be well-intentioned but in case you haven't noticed, this group and many of its members are completely bound in a damned-if-you-damned-if-you-don't situation. The main contingent that has taken such a dislike to this group is NOT interested in SOLVING the mess, so any move this group makes will be met with MORE drama, more complaints, more criticism. They don't need advice or friendly suggestions to compromise their ideals. Mainly because it just won't solve the problem. But also because THEY are the ones being attacked.

I almost lost it when I read one of the nastiest asshole cheerleading dumbasses start whining for them to APOLOGIZE for crap that has been lied about so often it is now a GWBooshian truth. I don't think that person has written a single constructive post on this "war" since I started watching.

OK nevermind that, it is a personal gripe with me - back to my point - it does not matter what this group does because there is a small contingent of people on this website that have decided they don't like some of these women/DUers and they are not interested in healing, getting along, or even ignoring this group. They want them gone and they will never accept any actions or compromise. It is obvious by the comments and actions of some of those individuals. So why in the hell should this group keep trying to appease their abusers?

[Scout]

53. thanks a fucking gazillion!!!! great post Kali.

thank you for that. it needs repeating over and over.

you can clearly see the double standards ... look at my latest hidden posts....

[Hatchling]

56. Wow!

[laconicsax]

58. I think the community standards now say "women, shut up and sit down."

[laconicsax]

55. "So why in the hell should this group keep trying to appease their abusers?"

Exactly.

[Little Star]

59. Thanks for speaking the truth about this situation Kali..

[seabeyond]

60. this is the CRAZIEST damn place i have ever seen.

for real.

[Rowdyboy]

61. I have been active on DU for almost 10 years now and I have just under 20,000 posts...

That means absolutely nothing except I try to be a serious person and I care about this place and all the people who post here. I believe that I have forged friendships across almost every imaginable barrier in the last ten years. To my friends in HoF I wish you nothing but perseverance. I also have dear friends in the other Feminist forum. All of you have been strongly supportive of me over the last ten years and I appreciate it and I return that support to all of you now. I can't heal your breach, I really can't do much of anything except offer empathy and I'm happy to do that right now. The same empathy you've given me for the last ten years. Thank you all.

[Scout]

62. nicely said. thank you. n/t

[seabeyond]

65. the silliest rowdy....

is about all of us is supportive of about all of us, and much of this is simple wasted energy.



you are a pal.