The Solution to MRA Problems? More Feminism

[boston bean]

Men’s rights activists—a loose coalition mostly comprised of men embittered that they’re not getting as much tail as they believe they’re due and men embittered after having their wives up and leave against their wishes—irritate feminist bloggers for many reasons, from blaming feminists for problems they clearly brought on themselves, to the Russian bride weirdness, to their dogged trolling and grudge-holding of feminists that criticize them.

But, honestly, all that pales in comparison to the most irritating thing of all about MRAs: they’re just so wrong.

When you believe that we live in a female-dominated world where straight men are the most oppressed class, it tends to make you wrong about pretty much everything. Wrong about the little things, like labeling every woman who displeases them a “feminist,” even if she does something highly traditional, like demands that men pay for every date. And wrong about big things, like writing off high rates of domestic violence and rape as matters of women lying, when all reputable sources agree that there’s simply a lot of violence against women.

They’re so wrong about everything, they’re wrong even when they’re right. Some of their observations of the world correspond with reality, but when they attempt to analyze it through the “blame feminism” lens, they get all turned around. Usually what annoys them stems not from feminism, but from sexism, especially when it comes to inflexible gender roles. Ironically, then, the solution to the problems they manage to correctly identify is … more feminism. I pulled together a sampling of examples to show how this works.

Go to the article to learn the the MRA's Gripe and how to counter it.

Common MRA gripes, such as these:

Men are more often the primary or even sole breadwinners of nuclear-family households.

Men have to do all the work asking women out, and women are often hostile to men’s overtures, which hurts men’s feelings.

Men are more likely to get killed at work.

Ladies Night, where bars often extend a drink special to women and not to men.

http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/solution-mra-problems-more-feminism/

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. The comments on that article are great. n/t

[MadrasT]

2. Yeah. Great.

And I quote:

all Fems should be executed

That's fucking *awesome*!

[JTFrog]

13. "Most violence in the home is initiated by women, and the main victims are the children."

And then there are the completely fabricated comments like that one. This seems to get repeated often enough that I think some men actually believe it.

Comment from the article in OP:

1.) Violence in society and the perpetuation of violence in society.

Domestic violence in western societies is a huge problem. The violence that exists in virtually every western family will almost invariably transfer from the privacy of an abusive home and result in random violence in the streets and in war. Most violence in the home is initiated by women, and the main victims are the children. What do feminists have to say about this problem? Would feminists have violent mothers gaoled and have young girls undergo anti-violence therapy programmes?

Let's look at some numbers from the DOJ:

The majority (73%) of family violence victims were female. Females were 84% of spouse abuse victims and 86% of victims of abuse at the hands of a boyfriend or girlfriend. While about three-fourths of the victims of family violence were female, about three-fourths of the persons who committed family violence were male.

Females were 58% of family murder victims. Of all the murders of females in 2002, family members were responsible for 43%. Eight in ten murderers who killed a family member were male.

Males were 83% of spouse murderers and 75% of murderers who killed a boyfriend or girlfriend.

Females were more likely than males to be victimized by family violence, and more likely than males to be victimized by specific types of family violence. Females were 51.6% of the U.S. population age 12 or older between 1998 and 2002 but 73.4% of the Nation’s victims of family violence (table 2.3). Similarly, females were about 50% of all spouses and romantic partners but were 84.3% of spouse abuse victims and 85.9% of the victims of violence between boyfriends and girlfriends.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvs02.pdf

Thanks for posting this OP BB. Eye opening as usual.

[font size=1]Just sticking my big toe back in and testing the waters![/font]

[seabeyond]

14. .

[redqueen]

15. The idea that women are responsible for most domestic violence

is very popular at the "good" men project site as well. At least in the comments. Not sure if the editorial staff agrees, but after the founder's Twitter fight with feminists I stopped paying much attention to that site.

[seabeyond]

16. good mens project is interesting

i have not figured it out. some is so reasoned. none really feminism. but, reasoned. yet, some are totally feeding the sexism. what is that?

[redqueen]

19. Most men don't recognize the reality of male privege or the patriarchy.

To them, most sexism and misogyny is just natural, the way things are meant to be, rational and reasonable, etc.

The MRA bullshit that is popular here on DU is even more popular elsewhere. The SPLC was dead on about that movement.

[boston bean]

17. This particular piece in the OP was written by Amanda Marcotte.

I have no idea about the founders twitter fight with feminists.

Can you clue me in?

[redqueen]

18. This is a decent summary.

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/the_good_men_project_i_used_to_know

There's also an archive of some of the tweets somewhere.


I started reading and posting there a couple of years ago. Amanda is very good, but she also at times makes some statements that leave me shaking my head... statements that aren't uncommon to hear from most women, but ... anyway.

[boston bean]

20. That does explain a lot. Thank you.

Also, looks like Amanda wrote that piece too.

I'll avoid it from now on. Had no idea the founder had these issues.

[redqueen]

21. I'm sure there's still good stuff there...

if you can stomach sifting through the chaff. And avoid the comments.

I'm glad you asked about it, cause Amanda linked an amusing piece from Manboobz about it, so that was nice to revisit.

Also I found the tweets I mentioned. http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-wrath-of-the-feminists-a-discussion-of-masculinity-gender-and-feminism/

[MadrasT]

22. I have seen MRA's claim that domestic violence is frequenty women's fault

Because women cause the men to become violent. The women provoke them men. They were "asking for it".

Victim blaming to the hilt.

[mzteris]

38. did you forget this, perchance?

Please say you forgot that.

Because for the life of me, I canNOT think that you would agree with the perverted comments that that man makes.

[seabeyond]

3. "Russian bride weirdness". what is that. i am hearing this way too often.

ya. it is all weird. and i think something growing. but, what i really appreciate, that we do not hear "that is great" is:

Usually what annoys them stems not from feminism, but from sexism, especially when it comes to inflexible gender roles. Ironically, then, the solution to the problems they manage to correctly identify is … more feminism.

that is so fuckin true

[MadrasT]

4. That is the idea

That if you want a female companion, you should "mail order" a Russian/asian bride because they are subservient and respectful of real men and will be so grateful to get to America they will bow down before your manly man greatness and not give you any uppity feminist bullshit. (Of course it is an internet match-up these days, not actually "mail order".)

[seabeyond]

5. i dont know about russian women, i have an idea, but the asian women i know

are tough. lol. i am much more gentle on my husband. so whenever i hear this, it is

go for it haus

[MadrasT]

6. Sheeeit

The Russian women I know would kick their MRA asses all over town.

I hadn't actually thought about that til now, LOL.

Seriously though, I hang on another board that is chock full of MRAs and they think this is a viable strategy for getting a wife. So they can regularly get their "needs" met, without playing the dating game, because "all American women are greedy scheming manipulative bitches". Or so they say.

I just ignore them.

[seabeyond]

9. princesses..... is what i hear.

ya. i hear those russian men are much tougher than our men, too. so thinking, those russian women know how to deal. just a thought

[redqueen]

8. Not sure how it is in most Asian countries,

but in Japan it was tradition to keep silent about abuse up until a few years ago.

33% of women reported having been abused by their partners. Most blamed themselves.

In recent years the trend is changing. Hopefully soon those shits won't have any countries to turn to to import women who are conditioned to put up with being treated like anything but equals.

[seabeyond]

10. i know decades ago, in the 70's

i had a japenese family who lived across the street. hubby would pull up and honk the horn. my mom would yell and rant and rant some more. the wife would run out and open the garage door. and my mom would continue with her rant, looking out the window. would piss her off.

BUT..... the women i know in this day and age, they dont take no shit, from no one.

[MadrasT]

11. *snort*

I just had an ad for "Chinese Dating Girls" on the left sidebar of DU.

When I hit "reply" to reply to this thread, it changed to "FilipinoCupid.com".

Target market FAIL.

[seabeyond]

12. "Target market FAIL." bah hahaha

Last edited Wed Jul 11, 2012, 04:23 PM - Edit history (1)

but, then, the point being, with a continual feed of this shit at all times, of "girls" being available to men and their ever fantastic sexuality, we wonder why men are over the moon with their all consuming sexuality that is in ALL our faces, all the fuckin time.

[MadrasT]

23. Now I have

sexylatinwoman.com

"Enjoy the fire of Latin girl chat!!! Chat now!!!"

With a girl in a hot pink bikini.

Thanks, DU. Nice to have my objectification delivered to me right here without leaving my feminists group.

[MadrasT]

24. Explore TOP Latin singles!

Never married women with black hair and black eyes!

CHAT NOW!!!!1!!!

[seabeyond]

25. Thanks, DU. Nice to have my objectification delivered to me right here

without leaving my feminists group

what a hoot.

[Broderick]

26. Reading one of the comments has me wondering

Why does it become a qualifier for women (feminist) to have to say they are pro-men because of the accusation that they are anti-men. Seems like people are compelled to throw the caveat out to sequester the accusation when the accusation is generally nonsense. Sometimes I think it is best not to defend what doesn't need defending. In forensics debate in high school I learned that getting someone into the defensive posture was the way to win the debate. Crafting the discussion/argument to put someone in that defensive posture seems to be what this whole accusation accomplishes. To counter the attempt we learned to redirect. Just an observation.

[seabeyond]

27. absolutely. good point. i wish women would stop. like, all the accusations hurled

at women who speak out. anti sex. prudes. sexual problems. pearl clutcher. ugly/jealous/frigid.

too many women feel the need to say

i like sex...
i dont hate men...

before making their statement.

i refuse.

very good point. we DO need to stop this.

[MadrasT]

28. Yes. We do get distracted by those derailments sometimes.

Sometimes I think it is best not to defend what doesn't need defending.

Same with women having to say they are pro-sex (and be all sex-positive to prove it) because of the accusation that they are anti-sex.

[redqueen]

29. I think you've touched on a huge part of the problem.

I agree that not being distracted or derailed by these tactics is important.

But that idea, that such tactics are a way to "win" a debate. I think it's this idea that one side has to "win" and one side has to "lose" that taints so many discussions. An exchange of ideas and points of view is lost amidst the point-scoring.

This heirarchical approach to things is just not helpful.

[Broderick]

30. I understand what you are saying completely

I threw that debate thing because it struck me as a tactic from when I took debate in high school as an example of how a tacit accusation is meant to put someone in a defensive posture in discussion. It is disarming and creates a defensive necessity in folks. I learned redirect back then. Well, I have forgotten more than I remember after all these years but one comment in particular from the link seemed to ring that bell. It doesn't have to be a win or lose in these particular discussions I was musing on or where I see it happen time and time again that someone is compelled to qualify with "I am not anti-men, but...........". Just seems the accusation is silly and meant to demean or diminish what someone might say, hence the prevailing defense that one is not anti-male just because they are a feminist. In my opinion it is as if it doesn't need defending because it is a redirecting accusation.

[redqueen]

31. Oh I agree completely.

The disclaimers are automatic at this point, because the accusations are that commonplace. So to avoid it, many just throw it out there before they say anything else, as if that could ever even work.

I saw the most amusing deconstruction of it regarding criticism of porn. The idea that before anyone can dare criticize that sacred cow, one must first state that ... Well here I'll just post it again.

I'm pretty tired of any feminist critique of porn, in order for it to be seen as valid, the author is expected to like pornography and heartily endorse it in a disclaimer. The happy, fun, consent-filled, queer and woman-friendly stuff we see on the internet is a rarity compared to the hateful (not a strong enough word) disgusting and degrading reality that is the whole picture. Say you have a pizza, and 14 out of 16 slices are covered in broken glass and dog shit, but two slices are cheesy and perfectly delicious. If I'm reviewing it, should I have to make some statement about how great those pieces fit for human consumption were? Should I support Pope Benedicto's Dog Shit N Broken Glass Pizza Parlour because they manage to make two edible slices of pizza per pie? It not only distorts the reality of the situation, but also seriously diminishes the pain and suffering of the vast majority of human beings who've actually been through it (eaten pizza/been involved in the pornography industry.)

[seabeyond]

33. i love that. but, it also goes along witht he discussion of strippin and prostitutin

must we say ahead, that there are a few that are healthy adn balanced and the lifestyle works for them, to addressed all the hurt and forced and broken down people.

[Broderick]

35. Another one of those things

that someone can point to that compels defensive reaction. The truth is well documented and studied. The first thing I would say if someone says there is healthy aspects to it; show me or quote the statistics of the healthy cause and effect then and give me a healthy analogy. What has prostitution done to better you or those around you? Redirect on quick retort.

[redqueen]

37. No, we shouldn't have to.

We can leave the floundering, pathetic crusaders against such strawman arguments to indulge in such wankery as much as they like, and just ignore the idiocy.

[Broderick]

34. If that was your deconstruction post

It was brilliant in metaphor and analogy.

[redqueen]

36. Oh no, it wasn't mine.

I saw it posted elsewhere, but I do agree the woman who said it did so brilliantly.

[seabeyond]

32. one side has to "win" and one side has to "lose" that taints so many discussions.

you are so on point. right on.