Is there anyone here who thinks that no sex worker could possibly not be a victim?

[redqueen]

I can't speak for others, but it's my view that some surely can do such work of their own free will and not because of unfortunate circumstances.

They're just not my concern as they're the privileged few who actually do choose it for themselves, they have a healthy sense of self esteem, they're most likely white and not from an underprivileged background or a background of abuse, and are not doing it to feed an addiction, etc.

They're not being exploited, is what I mean. Unlike the majority in the industry.


So I'm just curious... cause I suspect that when people argue against such ideas (that anti-porn, anti-prostitution feminists think all sex workers are victims), that what they're doing is constructing simplistic, stupid strawman arguments, so that they don't have to do any thinking.

2 votes, 3 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes, I think that all sex workers are exploited victims.
	1 (50%)
	Pfffffffffft... lol. So much fail. Not surprising though!
	1 (50%)
	3 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[TheWraith]

1. The anti-prostitution schtick creates the environment for sex workers to be victimized.

It's the same as the fundamental problem with drugs, and why prohibition was such a disaster: when something is illegal, the black market that's created is as a rule controlled by the least ethical person involved. Hence compare the conditions in Holland or Nevada to a major city street corner.

[99th_Monkey]

3. It also provides excellent blackmail smearage material

to take out the likes of Eliot Spitzer, et. al.

[seabeyond]

11. the man was a hypocrite, taking out the very thing he was using all the while being glorified

going after it.

[99th_Monkey]

16. Huh?

WTF are you talking about? Eliot S.?

Your post is not even a coherent sentence, so I'm not
sure why I'm even bothering to reply, except I've got
nothing else in particular to do at the moment.

[seabeyond]

17. this would be him being a hypocrite

In 2004, then-New York State Attorney General Eliot Spitzer announced criminal charges against 16 alleged members of a profitable prostitution ring based in Staten Island.

"This was a sophisticated and lucrative operation with a multi-tiered management structure," Spitzer said at the time. "It was, however, nothing more than a prostitution ring, and now its owners and operators will be held accountable."

It was one of the many cases brought by Spitzer's office that helped develop his reputation as a tough-on-crime moral crusader, and one of at least two prostitution cases he oversaw.

*

During his time as attorney general, Spitzer brought major cases against some of the country's largest corporate giants. He also brought at least two cases against alleged prostitution rings and, as governor, signed legislation to increase penalties for international sex trafficking.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=4424586&page=1

[99th_Monkey]

19. I was not aware of this info you're sharing

thanks for filling in the picture.

I was only aware of his rep as a prosecutor of Wall St. crimes.

[seabeyond]

20. ah. i made the assumption everyone knew the history

sorry i was not more clear.

[99th_Monkey]

21. No problemo. ~nt

[redqueen]

4. Look at the situation in Amsterdam and Australia.

Germany appears to be the only exception to the rule.

We'll agree to disagree on this.

[seabeyond]

10. not true. everywhere their is legalized prostitution there is an increase in trafficking

AGAINST their will, forced, sex slaves. the demand goes up and there are just not enough women, girls and boys that want the job. they import them from 3rd world countries. the police have a much tougher time getting to the criminal element. the crime does not disappear from the community.

[arcane1]

2. That's my view as well; few things are entirely 100% absolute

Indeed, I've known people who fit your second paragraph to a tee

[redqueen]

5. I don't know any,

but they do seem to be vastly overrepresented in online discussions of the multi billion dollar sex industry.

[arcane1]

6. Indeed!

[eridani]

23. For obvious reasons, they are not likely to be public about their line of work

Given their propensity to avoid publicity, how can you possibly know how many of them there are?

[sufrommich]

7. I would bet the majority of sex workers started out

as easily exploited runaways and/or drug addicts. I doubt most like what they do for a living or are happy about what their life has become.
I will say this, I would prefer a regulated sex worker industry where there are age requirements for the workers, free health care,and unionized work places to violent misogynistic pimps,14 year olds hooking and STDs as the norm. I have to laugh when people try to tell themselves the the prostitution business resembles something akin to Pretty Woman.

[CrispyQ]

27. Outstanding post & I agree!

I would think the health concerns alone would be reason enough to implement some kind of regulation, but this culture has been hijacked by the religiously insane.

I think you are spot on about the Pretty Woman comment.

[mzteris]

8. so let me ask these two questions:

What little girl ever says, "I want to grow up to be a hooker, or prostitute, or call-girl, or escort, or stripper, or porn star?"

What (good) parent has ever said, "GOD I really hope my little girl grows up to be a (see above)"

IMHO even those who "choose it for themselves" have some type of issue - you - or they - may not even be aware of it. They may not be FORCED to do it, but really, if they had a choice - a real honest to god choice without all the screwed-up societal view of women - their roles, their worth, their looks, their value, the expectations and exploitation (yeah, even willing participants can be exploited) . . . would they?

If they could get the money, the attention, the whatever it is they glean from participation in such from some OTHER venue - are you saying you think they would REALLY choose that profession?

(Okay - I guess that was more than two questions!)

I DO argue against those ideas and no, I don't think I'm constructing simplistic, stupid strawman arguments. And I very much DO think about it.

I ihink it's bad for society. I think it's bad for women. I think it's bad for men. I think it's bad for girls. I think it's bad for boys. I think it's bad for relationships. I think it's bad self-actualization, realization, worth, value, and standing in society. If nothing else it most assuredly affects how males relate to females.

I'm a sexual person - probably a lot - um - wilder - than a whole lot of people on here so I'm most definitely no prude. But I think porn and associated industries are extremely harmful to all parties concerned. Both those involved and those who may be touched by it but not directly involved. It demeans and devalues women - I don't care whether someone actually believes they're doing it because "they want to". It harms male/female interaction. It inherently harms how males view females. Are we objects to be viewed and used? Are we nothing but a sex toy? Are we even a person at that point?

When men see women as a PERSON first and sex partner/receptacle second - actually more like third/fourth/fifth, then just maybe I'll consider that the "sex industry" has some redeeming value/

We are more than breasts and what's between our legs. We are more than our "sex". We ARE. And until society recognizes THAT, then I think even the so-called WILLING participation in the sex industry undermines that.

[seabeyond]

12. +1. actually, we had a couple fathers of daughters willing to go so far as to say they would cheer

their daughter on with these choices if it is something they REALLY want to do.

[redqueen]

13. No no no, I don't mean that *you're* constructing simplistic, strawman arguments.

I was referring to porn obsessed people who insist that anyone who is anti porn wants it banned, thinks everyone involved is a victim, etc. It's their way of avoiding any nuance, so they can pretend it's all black and white. Puritans vs. freedom fighters for the vagina trade.

I'm not saying that no one who is anti-porn and anti-prostitution thinks the same way you do, just that it's not an accurate description of everyone who is anti-porn and anti-prostitution.

I think there is merit to your arguments. We won't ever know until we destroy the patriarchy, though. After we've done that, we can find out.

You might find this interesting. http://www.thehousegroup.org/archive/res_how_prostitution_works.pdf

[ChazII]

22. Your link is appreciated.

I read the first 3 pages and looking forward to finishing the paper.

This topic hits close to home as a neighbor's daughter was kidnapped several years ago and forced into sexual slavery. She managed to escape but her pimp/kidnapper found her and killed her.

[whathehell]

24. That story about your neighbor is horrible.....Please tell me

they found the scumbag and prosecuted him.

[seabeyond]

25. i have never been connected to anything like this, in a life time. and it is a real

jolt when i hear a personal story of something like this happening. giving it the feel of a reality, that so many of us are sheltered from.

[Major Hogwash]

28. "I Was"

Have you seen that PSA that they are running on tv lately?
Is it showing in your area?

The one in which for the first 20 seconds of the 1-minute ad, women of all ages, colors, creeds, shapes, and economic backgrounds say "I was", referring to the fact that they were sexually assaulted.
The ad goes on to say that a woman is sexually assaulted in this country every 2½ minutes.
It's a very effective ad.

[seabeyond]

29. excellent major. thanks for telling me. i dont watch tv. so no,

i have not seen it. but that is an eye opener. when i said i have not been around..... i was referring to a child kidnapped and forced into prostitution. that is the killer, that we really think cannot happen here, but does.

rape, meh... i know plenty. isnt that sad.

but, i do like to hear that PSA you are talking about. i do think a lot of people (and ya especially men because it is not in their world) just do not realize.

four women standing on my porch. i ask.... who has been raped. four rapes. one person was not raped.

that is not good odds.....

[seabeyond]

9. rah to the people that choose that. there are too many being hurt, abused, exploited, damaged,

raped, and forced.

[redqueen]

14. And it is those, the ones who are coerced, exploited, forced, etc., whom I care to discuss.

Those are the majority, and for some reason they keep being ignored by the privileged few.

As you pointed out, where it's legal, the pimps of course exploit the easier ability to peddle the more popular condom-free, underage, "willing"-to-do-anything prostitutes, who are ... again ... ignored.

[seabeyond]

15. for some reason they keep being ignored by the privileged few

for some reason they keep being ignored because of the privileged few by the "we are all consenting adult" crowd

yes. the abused and forced are ignored for the benefit of the few. it is an odd world

[seabeyond]

18. i didnt read the poll close enough. "exploited victims"

i think they can be good with their choice, for whatever reason. and i generally think there is a reason a person chooses this job. and not a healthy reason. and it all may be well and good, the choice. i still may feel they are exploited. even if it is one they are freely choosing with other options available to them.

interesting.

[patrice]

26. I'm pretty good at imagining (just ask anyone) & I'm having a hard time imagining that. nt

[loli phabay]

30. reply

like in all things, there are victims and others willing.

[redqueen]

31. Er... hosts?

Which group of respondents is getting banned from the group?

You know, cause we brook no disagreement and all.

[seabeyond]

32. ya, well... i am still leaning to change my vote. i just want to make sure i wont get in trouble IF

i disagree with you.

cause though there are women that say there is no issue and totally happy with choice..... i dont know if i can go there. i like to take people at their word, so that is why i voted as i did. but, in my heart.....

i am conflicted.

[redqueen]

33. Maybe I'm reading you wrong...

but I don't consider every woman who becomes a prostitute to be a victim.

I'm of the opinion that some very much do it out of choice, and not necessity. And may even manage to somehow enjoy it (when you can exercise some control over which clients you take, that probably makes a huge difference).

As I said to mzteris above, it's very possible that no woman would choose to be a prostitute if given equal opportunities, if not conditioned to place so much importance on desirability and sexuality, etc. etc. We'll never know unless and until we smash the patriarchy.

[seabeyond]

34. ok, i can go with this.

i think a lot of the reason i am having a tough time is, i believe, that our mind is a powerful thing. and we can tell ourselves lies and buy into it. and though they work for us, hence, why we do it, it is still ultimately damaging to us.

so, though women convince themselves, i think a time of reckoning may happen. but, that would be in a lot of life choices that are not healthy. we know them to not be healthy. and we continue to do it. we have to convince ourselves, so we can continue.

[redqueen]

35. "that would be in a lot of life choices"

Exactly.

There's disagreement, and who knows how things would be absent all the conditioning and the unfair system?

So yeah, I wanna know which group is getting kicked out. We're so intolerant when it comes to disagreement, yanno.

[MadrasT]

36. We do not ban people for disagreement.

We ban people who come in here and disagree with the intention of being belligerent just to stir shit.

There is respectful discussion and disagreement, and then there is poking people with a stick just because. Those are two different things.

I realize this distinction is difficult for some to grasp, and that sometimes it is a fine line.

But that's the difference.

I sometimes post in other protected groups, and I am damn sure to be respectful and only do it when I want to discuss ideas with intellectual honesty and curiosity. I sure as fuck don't go in there with guns-a-blazin' and a shitty ass attitude and a big ol' chip on my shoulder.

Don't pee in other people's pools. You can swim in them, but don't think polluting them is OK.

Jesus... it ain't that difficult.