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Sat Apr 10, 2021, 11:11 AM

Three-year old shoots and kills infant brother

And its always the last line in these stories that is the kicker:
"Investigators and prosecutors were still determining if any charges would be filed in the case...".
A THREE-YEAR OLD HAD ACCESS TO A LOADED GUN! SOMEONE SHOULD BE GOING TO PRISON!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/10/baby-dies-in-tragic-shooting-by-three-year-old-brother-houston-police-say

23 replies, 2519 views

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Arrow 23 replies Author Time Post
Reply Three-year old shoots and kills infant brother (Original post)
70sEraVet Apr 10 OP
Delarage Apr 10 #1
SoCalDavidS Apr 10 #2
kimbutgar Apr 10 #4
Random Boomer Apr 10 #9
Sancho Apr 10 #3
Delmette2.0 Apr 10 #11
cab67 Apr 10 #16
Larissa Apr 10 #17
IronLionZion Apr 10 #5
nvme Apr 10 #6
IronLionZion Apr 10 #8
orleans Apr 10 #14
cab67 Apr 10 #15
nvme Apr 11 #22
cab67 Apr 11 #23
billh58 Apr 10 #18
SoCalDavidS Apr 10 #21
Lucky Luciano Apr 10 #7
pwb Apr 10 #10
3catwoman3 Apr 10 #12
cab67 Apr 10 #13
msongs Apr 10 #19
pwb Apr 10 #20

Response to 70sEraVet (Original post)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 11:14 AM

1. Guns don't kill people

The 3 year old children of "good guys with guns" kill people.

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Response to 70sEraVet (Original post)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 11:31 AM

2. Oh Well, Thoughts & Prayers

I bet that 3 year old is traumatized the rest of his life, once he's fully able to comprehend what he did.

If we lived in a civilized country, those responsible would NEVER be allowed to own a gun again. But we're not, this is America, and I'm sure they'll fight for their right to continue owning guns.

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Response to SoCalDavidS (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 12:04 PM

4. My mother had a cousin who was a young child of 5 who shot and killed his 4 year old brother

Playing with a rifle. He was the saddest man I remember and his mother never got over it and she blamed him all his life for his brothers death. She gave him a major guilt trip. Luckily he married a strong woman who helped him overcome his grief and got him into therapy.

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Response to kimbutgar (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 01:38 PM

9. Wow.

Blame the 5-year-old child, but not the adults who are supposed to secure their guns. Talk about child abuse.

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Response to 70sEraVet (Original post)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 11:35 AM

3. People Control, Not Gun Control


This is my generic response to gun threads where people are shot and killed by the dumb or criminal possession of guns. For the record, I grew up in the South and on military bases. I was taught about firearms as a child, and I grew up hunting, was a member of the NRA, and I still own guns. In the 70ís, I dropped out of the NRA because they become more radical and less interested in safety and training. Some personal experiences where people I know were involved in shootings caused me to realize that anyone could obtain and posses a gun no matter how illogical it was for them to have a gun. Also, easy access to more powerful guns, guns in the hands of children, and guns that werenít secured are out of control in our society. As such, hereís what I now think ought to be the requirements to possess a gun. Iím not debating the legal language, I just think itís the reasonable way to stop the shootings. Notice, none of this restricts the type of guns sold. This is aimed at the people who shoot others, because itís clear that they should never have had a gun.

1.) Anyone in possession of a gun (whether they own it or not) should have a regularly renewed license. If you want to call it a permit, certificate, or something else that's fine.
2.) To get a license, you should have a background check, and be examined by a professional for emotional and mental stability appropriate for gun possession. It might be appropriate to require that examination to be accompanied by references from family, friends, employers, etc. This check is not to subject you to a mental health diagnosis, just check on your superficial and apparent gun-worthyness.
3.) To get the license, you should be required to take a safety course and pass a test appropriate to the type of gun you want to use.
4.) To get a license, you should be over 21. Under 21, you could only use a gun under direct supervision of a licensed person and after obtaining a learnerís license. Your license might be restricted if you have children or criminals or other unsafe people living in your home. (If you want to argue 18 or 25 or some other age, fine. 21 makes sense to me.)
5.) If you possess a gun, you would have to carry a liability insurance policy specifically for gun ownership - and likely you would have to provide proof of appropriate storage, security, and whatever statistical reasons that emerge that would drive the costs and ability to get insurance.
6.) You could not purchase a gun or ammunition without a license, and purchases would have a waiting period.
7.) If you possess a gun without a license, you go to jail, the gun is impounded, and a judge will have to let you go (just like a DUI).
8.) No one should carry an unsecured gun (except in a locked case, unloaded) when outside of home. Guns should be secure when transporting to a shooting event without demonstrating a special need. Their license should indicate training and special carry circumstances beyond recreational shooting (security guard, etc.). If you are carrying your gun while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you lose your gun and license.
9.) If you buy, sell, give away, or inherit a gun, your license information should be recorded.
10.) If you accidentally discharge your gun, commit a crime, get referred by a mental health professional, are served a restraining order, etc., you should lose your license and guns until reinstated by a serious relicensing process.

Most of you know that a license is no big deal. Besides a driverís license you need a license to fish, operate a boat, or many other activities. I realize these differ by state, but that is not a reason to let anyone without a bit of sense pack a semiautomatic weapon in public, on the roads, and in schools. I think we need to make it much harder for some people to have guns.

For those who want to argue legality, please reference: The Second Amendment: A Biography by Michael Waldman

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Response to Sancho (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 01:57 PM

11. +1

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Response to Sancho (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 02:28 PM

16. way too rational to actually be put into practice

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Response to Sancho (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 02:35 PM

17. Great common sense, Sancho

My ex was what some might consider a gun nut, almost completely ignorant about firearms. Because of my experience with him, I always believed that firearms training should be mandatory for all those seeking to own guns. Even folks who don't own guns should receive some instruction about firearm safety, because firearms are so prevalent in America.

My husband was an alcoholic who kept loaded guns in our "marital" home. As his drinking escalated, so did the threats with guns. One night, after an booze fueled altercation, I threated to called the police. He pulls one of his weapons -- a .357 Magnum -- from its "storage" place underneath our bed fully loaded, and tells me that he'll shoot any police officer who arrives at the house. Needless to say, I did not call law enforcement. One horrifying night, he was horsing around with his 9 mm handgun. By accident, he pulled a pin on the weapon and the entire thing came apart in pieces. I was inches from it and it gave me such a fright. It was one of those moments of insight about how little to no knowledge about personal firearms is profoundly dangerous. As the marriage deteriorated and his drinking escalated, I would find myself so distraught that I actually entertained the idea of finishing him off with one of his own guns. At least the terrible suspense would be over. We occasionally would go to the rifle range so I knew that out of all his weapons, the rifle and the Beretta, were the easiest for me to handle. (In addition to the 9mm, the .357 Magnum and the rifle, he also owned a Beretta.) Occasionally, when things got bad, I'd pack up the baby and leave. (I also joined Al-Anon which I believed helped to save my life in this situation.) I would never warn him when I'd leave, I'd just disappear, because of the fear that he would shoot me.

I eventually applied for and got a permit to purchase a handgun. It's not easy to do in New Jersey -- a state that has tough firearms ownership laws for legal weapons. I went through the firearms check and had to be interviewed by a detective. After I got the handgun permit I kept it for a while and then ripped it up. I didn't trust myself to own my own weapon it because of the ongoing volatile situation with my ex husband. Guns on top of guns wasn't the way to solve the problem.

I learned one other priceless lesson from our visits to the rifle range. The rifle range also had a retail section where firearms were sold. Each and every time a customer would ask to examine a gun, the salesmen would unlock the glass case and check the weapon to make certain there were no live rounds in the chamber. They did this each and every time. At first I wondered -- why check these guns repeatedly if they knew -- or assumed -- that they were not loaded? And then one day I got the answer from an article I read about gun safety and which, Sancho, you have imparted in your post: All guns are loaded. You can never assume anything about a firearm. Ever. The round in the chamber of a weapon has been the source of great tragedy.

Years after we divorced, my ex eventually drank himself to death. After not hearing from him for some time, his parents called the state police and requested they do a "safety" check on him. They found him deceased in the home he purchased in PA. I took solace that the state police likely confiscated his weapons.

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Response to 70sEraVet (Original post)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 01:16 PM

5. If only the infant brother had a gun to defend himself

but those damn liberals want to keep guns away from infants.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 01:30 PM

6. TOO SOON

the parents should not be charged, losing one child is enough

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Response to nvme (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 01:34 PM

8. Disagree

Legal consequences need to be used as a deterrent.

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Response to nvme (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 02:16 PM

14. nope. nope. nope.

what if their kid shot and killed the neighbor's infant?
should those parents be held accountable then?
why the hell isn't their own baby worth it?

they should absolutely be charged and held accountable.

not only did their stupidity / irresponsibility kill their own baby, but they probably managed to permanently fuck up the life of their other kid.

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Response to nvme (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 02:25 PM

15. The parents absolutely should be charged.

Losing a child is indeed tragic. But what if it was a neighbor's kid? Or some stranger who just happened to be in the trajectory path of the bullet?

Children are incurably curious. If they see guns, they'll pick them up. I once saw a video where someone tested the NRA's Eddie the Eagle educational program, which was intended to teach kids to leave guns alone and tell an adult if they find one. So they'd put a gun (not a real one) on a table and exit the room, leaving the children unattended. The average time it took for kids who'd been taught to leave guns alone to pick up and start playing with the gun was less than 20 seconds. In some cases, they'd have two kids in the room; one of them would scold the other kid for playing with it - "we're not supposed to do that!" - but in every case, the child willing to pick up the gun was able to persuade the other child to join in the play; in not one instance did the more rule-abiding child persuade the other child to put the gun down. This was a while ago, and I might be misremembering some of the details, but I'll try to find it.

Kids will play with guns if they find them. Leaving a gun unsecured, either loaded or with ammunition close at hand, must be punished.

I'm not saying the parents should spend time in prison. But they should definitely be sanctioned for their lack of responsibility.

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Response to cab67 (Reply #15)

Sun Apr 11, 2021, 04:16 PM

22. A Thoughtful response

I am a gun owner and I am a firm believer in registering and taking mandatory classes to ensure safety. I keep my guns locked at all times when there are others in my home. I grew up in a family that had guns and we were all aware how dangerous they can be. I am anti-NRA. I am more than willing to follow the law regarding guns. If the country outlawed guns I would hesitatingly surrender my own.

I am also a yellow-dog Democratic Party Member. The 2 are not incompatible. I firmly believe in justice and providing help for all Americans no matter what the circumstances. I won't belittle or anyone who chooses to own or not own firearms. Either way it's their right.

I see the tragedy and yes it is horrible the damage that was done to that family. In a careless or reckless moment their lives are altered forever. The anguish a family feels to lose one who is so young, creates a hole that nothing will ever fill.
When I said they should not be charged I misspoke. I should have said let them not be sent to prison.

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Response to nvme (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 11, 2021, 06:15 PM

23. I appreciate that.

My views were heavily influenced by the case of Herbert and Catherine Schaible. One of their children died from a treatable medical condition. They refused to seek treatment on religious grounds, and were given probation. Indeed, parents in cases like this are usually given light punishment. The prosecutor in this case wasn't happy, but the judge presumed the loss of a child was bad enough to justify the light sentence. But the parents didn't get the message - they lost a second child four years later, again from a treatable condition that went untreated because of the parents' religious views.

Parents who leave loaded guns with a chambered round unattended may also think they taught their small children to treat guns with respect, and they do have a constitutional right to own a gun, but somehow, parents never seem to learn from what happens to other families.

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Response to nvme (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 04:20 PM

18. Are you sure

that you're posting in the right group? There's a pro-gun group on DU that would love to have your advice and wisdom.

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Response to nvme (Reply #6)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 07:05 PM

21. Take Every Single One Of Their Guns

NEVER allow them to possess a firearm for the rest of their lives.

I bet they would raise hell over that. Got to keep those guns.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 01:33 PM

7. I wonder if he was part of the kinder guardians program?

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Response to 70sEraVet (Original post)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 01:52 PM

10. Keeping a round in the Chamber should be a felony.

It takes less than a second to chamber a round. Why one in the chamber? Three year olds would struggle to load a round.

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Response to 70sEraVet (Original post)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 02:11 PM

12. It is particularly infuriating when these...

...things are called ďtragic accidents.Ē

THESE ARE NOT ACCIDENTS. THIS IS NEGLIGENCE. (And yes, I am shouting.)

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Response to 70sEraVet (Original post)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 02:15 PM

13. this has become a concern in my own family

My sister's 11-year-old son has a lot of emotional problems. He's shown the ability to act violently against others. He's attacked people - even teachers - with sharp objects. He's also tried to commit suicide more than once. All sorts of state agencies have gotten involved, including the state's child welfare agency.

My sister has issues, too, so there are real questions about whether she can provide a stable home for him.

The problem is his father. He's a hard-core gun humper. He evidently got into some trouble with child welfare when he claimed he didn't have any loaded guns in the house, only to later admit he wasn't counting the handguns, including the 9mm he sometimes carries on his hip. I have no idea whether they're locked away, but I tend to doubt it. This should disqualify him from being the custodial parent, in my opinion.

There comes a point at which one's right to bear arms should give way to the right of everyone else to not get shot.

(As for my nephew - my wife and I discussed, VERY briefly, whether we'd take him in should his mom and dad not be able to keep custody. Neither of us wants him in foster care. But that discussion ended swiftly - no matter how much I love my nephew, our first priority is our 5-year-old daughter. It's just too much of a risk.)

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Response to cab67 (Reply #13)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 06:18 PM

19. there is no right not to get shot. dead ppl are the price gun owners are willing to pay for their

precious 2A

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Response to msongs (Reply #19)

Sat Apr 10, 2021, 06:48 PM

20. Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness?

Should come into play in this regard.

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