Just curious. What do RKBA gun enthusiasts say about Wyatt Earp and his gun ban in tombstone?

[CTyankee]

Do they consider him a traitor to their cause? Or do they have an "excuse"?

[Jackpine Radical]

1. Now you know what that little dustup

at the OK Corral was all about.

[KansDem]

2. That's right!

Someone wouldn't "check their gun."

Tom McLaury's concealed weapon[edit]
Pete Spence, an alias for Elliot Larkin Ferguson, in a 1893 Yuma Penitentiary prison mugshot.Outside the court house where Ike was being fined, Wyatt almost walked into 28 year-old Tom McLaury as the two men were brought up short nose-to-nose. Tom, who had arrived in town the day before, was required by the well-known city ordinance to deposit his pistol when he first arrived in town. When Wyatt demanded, "Are you heeled or not?", McLaury said he was not armed. Wyatt testified that he saw a revolver in plain sight on the right hip of Tom's pants.[60] As an unpaid deputy marshal for Virgil, Wyatt habitually carried a pistol in his waistband, as was the custom of that time. Witnesses reported that Wyatt drew his revolver from his coat pocket and pistol whipped Tom McLaury with it twice, leaving him prostrate and bleeding on the street. Saloon-keeper Andrew Mehan testified at the Spicer hearing afterward that he saw McLaury deposit a revolver at the Capital Saloon sometime between 1-2:00 pm, after the confrontation Wyatt, which Mehan also witnessed.[7]

Wyatt said in his deposition afterward that he had been temporarily acting as city marshal for Virgil the week before while Virgil was in Tucson for the Pete Spence and Frank Stilwell trial. Wyatt said that he still considered himself a deputy city marshal, which Virgil later confirmed. Since Wyatt was an off-duty officer, he could not legally search or arrest Tom for carrying a revolver within the city limits-—a misdemeanor offense. Only Virgil or one of his city police deputies, including Morgan Earp and possibly Warren Earp, could search him and take any required action. Wyatt, a non-drinker, testified at the Spicer hearing that he went to Haffords and bought a cigar and went outside to watch the Cowboys. At the time of the gunfight about two hours later, Wyatt could not know if Tom was still armed.[29]

It was early afternoon by the time Ike and Tom had seen doctors for their head wounds. The day was chilly, with snow still on the ground in some places. Both Tom and Ike had spent the night gambling, drinking heavily, and without sleep. Now they were both out-of-doors, both wounded from head beatings, and at least Ike was still drunk.[13][56]:138

--more--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfight_at_the_O.K._Corral#Tom_McLaury.27s_concealed_weapon

I've seen both movie versions and not once, that I can recollect, did anyone mention anything about the Second Amendment.

[CTyankee]

5. what would happen if someone went over to the Gungeon and posted two words: Wyatt Earp?

Or would that cause heads to explode? I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt...

[gejohnston]

10. cross post this and find out. nt

[CTyankee]

32. this post got me a lot of information. Very interesting. I never knew all that stuff about

Wyatt Earp. He appears to be a vexing person to some people in this debate.

As for me, I don't really care that much. I see him in a historical perspective. He was who he was. It doesn't much matter to me what his views were or were not.

[billh58]

3. According to the NRA

Gungeoneers, there was no such thing as the "Wild West." They say it was all made up by Hollywood, and that there was no "gun violence" during that period of our history.

I believe that our African-American and Native American brothers and sisters, take strong exception to that re-write of the history books, but the NRA and the KKK can't be bothered with pesky old facts: more gunz = less gun deaths.

[CTyankee]

4. Oh boy. But I can understand it because I finally realized that their grasp on reality is very

weak, to say the least. I dunno what to say really...sometimes I just can't believe it...

[gejohnston]

11. Historians, not the NRA.

The Klan was mostly in the South. Native Americans were at the hands of the army, including African American units .
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0717hill0717.html
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2001/4/01.04.10.x.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Cavalry_Regiment_%28United_States%29#19th_century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_Cavalry_Regiment_%28United_States%29#Indian_Wars_1885.E2.80.9398

[spin]

6. I believe the gun ban was selectively enforced. ...

Others have suggested the same.

Behind the OK Corral: The Legend and the Legacy
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly Truths in 19th Century Tombstone

Joe Poniatowski, Yahoo! Contributor Network
May 28, 2008

***snip***

While in Tombstone, the Earp brothers did represent the side of law and order, but many considered them opportunists interested in capitalizing on the burgeoning silver economy. They were accused of selectively enforcing the ban on carrying firearms in town. Doc Holliday for example is believed to have carried concealed weapons frequently, which the Earps would doubtlessly know about. They regularly dis-armed the Cow-boys, but never trifled with Doc. In fact, when Virgil hastily deputized Doc prior to the infamous showdown behind the corral, he supplied Doc with a shotgun, but Doc was also already armed with a pistol, worn under his coat....emphasis added
http://www.democraticunderground.com/index.php

[CTyankee]

7. so there it is...

[CTyankee]

8. Wat a minute! your link...what did I miss when I clicked on it?

[jimmy the one]

12. concealed carry privileges in dodge

spin: Doc Holliday is believed to have carried concealed weapons frequently, which the Earps would doubtlessly know about. They regularly dis-armed the Cow-boys, but never trifled with Doc.. when Virgil {earp} deputized Doc prior to the infamous showdown behind the {OK} corral, he supplied Doc with a shotgun, but Doc was also already armed with a pistol under his coat

DUH, there's a valid reason for doc holliday having a pistol, concealed or not; & likely as much open carry as what 'spin' & others try to suggest. Holliday was friend & associate of wyatt earp, later deputized, & any concealed carry by doc holliday was not of the 'caliber' of unknown entities to dodge city, or unlawfuls like the clantons (& how this go so far without mention of the clanton brothers?). Back then, the law & it's deputies, had to have concealed carry privileges, it was understood. But not everybody, & not out of towners.

wiki: by not going conspicuously armed {carrying concealed to OK corral area}, Virgil {earp et al} was seeking to avoid panic in the citizenry of Tombstone, and in the Clantons and McLaurys
.. Ft Griffin {tex}, Doc Holliday initially introduced to Wyatt Earp in 1878 .. The two began to form an unlikely friendship—Earp more even-tempered and controlled, Holliday more hot-headed and impulsive..friendship cemented 1878 Dodge City, Kansas, when Holliday defended Earp in a saloon against cowboys out to kill Earp.. Holliday primarily a gambler, although he had a reputation as a deadly gunman. Modern research has only identified 3 instances in which he shot someone.. 1878, Holliday assisted Earp during a barroom confrontation Earp credited Holliday with saving his life that day, and the two became friends as a result.. July 1879 former US Army scout Mike Gordon - after Doc followed him outside, Gordon shot at him. In either case, Holliday pulled his own weapon and killed him..
Holliday had been arrested 17 times before his 1881 shootout in {OK Corral} Tombstone. Only one arrest, an 1879 shootout with Mike Gordon in New Mex, was for murder. Holliday was not successfully prosecuted.. of all his other arrests, Holliday pleaded guilty to 2 gambling charges, one charge of carrying a deadly weapon in the city, and 1 misdemeanor.. The others were all dismissed or returned as "not guiltyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Holliday#cite_note-tan113-11

You realize, spin, that today, with the nra's approval, Doc Holliday, despite having been arrested 17 times, could own any firearm made in america, including assault rifles, & as many as he wanted. His current 2ndA rights & all that bull****.

[spin]

15. The simple reality is that probably neither the Earps or the Cow-Boys ...

were heroes and the Earps fell somewhere on the scale between being honest law enforcement officials and being criminals. Often even today we often find our law enforcement officers to be far from perfect.

I feel that gun control in Tombstone was "may-issue" and the Earp bothers had no problem with Doc Holiday carrying despite his well know reputation. The privileged few get to carry firearms under "may issue" while most citizens do not. It also would not surprise me in the least if I found that many other prominent citizens of Tombstone carried firearms and the Earps allowed them to do so.

I personally favor "shall-issue" concealed carry. In my opinion it eliminates favoritism and racism.

[gejohnston]

9. Earp didn't ban anything

Last edited Fri Jun 21, 2013, 08:11 PM - Edit history (1)

He was the town cop, not the town dictator. He was actually the deputy of the county sheriff in Tucson, which was the county seat. And it wasn't a gun ban. It was a carry ban.
The city ordnance was passed by the city council on 19 April 1881.

Ordinance No. 9
"To Provide against Carrying of Deadly Weapons" (effective April 19, 1881).
Section 1: "It is hereby declared to be unlawful for any person to carry deadly weapons, concealed or otherwise [except the same be carried openly in sight, and in the hand] within the limits of the City of Tombstone.
Section 2: This prohibition does not extend to persons immediately leaving or entering the city, who, with good faith, and within reasonable time are proceeding to deposit, or take from the place of deposit such deadly weapon.
Section 3: All fire-arms of every description, and bowie knives and dirks, are included within the prohibition of this ordinance."

Notice it didn't say anything about ownership. I'm guessing "in the hand" exemption meant taking your hunting rifle to the buckboard or horse. Non residents were supposed leave them at the livery, where you would park your horse, for safe keeping.
No excuses, no traitor to any cause, or anything else. There are probably a fair number of good history books on the subject.

Tombstone wasn't the only one. There were a couple of towns in Wyoming that did as well. Not that it really mattered, because unlike the old TV westerns, people generally didn't carry around town anyway.
It was actually rare. Even when I was a kid in Wyoming, the non LE open carry was a guy who rode his motorcycle to the range. It was the only legal way for him to carry it since, at that time, putting his revolver in a saddle bag would have been the same as putting it in a glove box or under a car seat, which was illegal.

Edit to add
it was amended in 1977 to:

5-5-1: CARRYING OF DEADLY WEAPONS PROHIBITED: link

It is hereby declared to be unlawful for any person other than a peace officer in the course of his official duties, to carry any deadly weapon concealed or otherwise within the limits of the city.

This prohibition does not extend to persons immediately leaving or entering the city, who, with good faith and within reasonable time are proceeding to deposit, or to take from the place of deposit, such deadly weapons, provided that such weapon be carried openly, in sight and in hand.

Performances under conditions of a permit issued by the city shall be exempt from this prohibition.

All firearms of every description, Bowie knives, hunting knives, dirks, and all knives with over three inch (3&quot blade measured from hilt to tip of blade, are included within the prohibition of this chapter. (Ord. 77-78-02, 10-10-1977)

I'm guessing Arizona passed a preemption law since then.

[CTyankee]

13. I see. It was a gun ban on carrying into the town. OK.

What was his rationale for instituting such a ban? Why did he do it? Was there a reason or was he a "power mad dictator"? Had anything happened to make him feel this way?

[gejohnston]

14. He didn't, it was the city council

Last edited Fri Jun 21, 2013, 09:32 PM - Edit history (1)

His job was to enforce it. Towns in the "old west" did have democratic institutions. That's another thing the old movies and the myth gets wrong.
The city council's? Rationale and reason can be two different things. Why did he enforce it? It was his job.
I don't know the town's history well enough to know why the town did. Most likely labor strife. Anti Chinese sentiment in mining and railroad towns were just as much about labor as it was race. Maybe more so, since it was directed at the Chinese but not other minority groups such as Japanese or African Americans (but then, most of the African Americans "the old west" were cowboys, and they had guns). My hometown is probably the worst example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Springs_massacre
I do know that Earp didn't become the resident deputy until after the law was passed. It is possible that he voted for the guy that introduced the law.
It was amended in 1977 and still on the books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyatt_Earp#Becomes_Deputy_Sheriff

Dodge City had a similar ordnance, but it only it applied to one neighborhood.

[jimmy the one]

16. actually

johnston: Earp didn't ban anything .. He was the town cop, .. He was actually the deputy of the county sheriff in Tucson

Actually, johnston? actually? - the 'town cop', when he was 2nd in command after the sheriff?

Wyatt Earp was a gambler, Pima County Deputy Sheriff, and Deputy Town Marshal in Tombstone, Arizona.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyatt_Earp#Life_after_Tombstone
.. a "sheriff's deputy", "sheriff's officer", or something similar, and is authorized to perform the sheriff's duties. ... Not just a deputized cop.

No, Wyatt Earp wasn't actually town marshall when the carry ban was enacted april 1881, but was soon appointed deputy US marshall in dec 1881.

Tombstone was evidently in cochise county not pima county, but just changed then & not to say you mislead. Jan 1, 1881, Cochise County was created out of the eastern portion of Pima County .. Earp and Behan applied to fill the new position of Cochise County sheriff {behan got it} - {10 months later} Oct, 1881, the tension between the Earps and the Cowboys came to a head. Tombstone city Marshal Virgil Earp the O.K. Corral.. Wyatt wasn't appointed an official Deputy U.S. Marshal until Dec 29, 1881,

johnston: And it wasn't a gun ban. It was a carry ban.

So from here on out can we presume that may issue ccw law is not a violation of 2ndA since it is just a concealed 'carry' ban, not a gun ban. Right? there's only a right to keep & 'bear' arms, & bear means in a confrontational manner, as per 2ndA & scalia, right? Thanks.

Ike Clanton filed murder charges against the Earps and Doc Holliday but they were eventually exonerated by a local judge after a 30-day preliminary hearing and then again by a local grand jury.

[gejohnston]

17. it was still the city council, not Earp

So from here on out can we presume that may issue ccw law is not a violation of 2ndA since it is just a concealed 'carry' ban, not a gun ban. Right? there's only a right to keep & 'bear' arms, & bear means in a confrontational manner, as per 2ndA & scalia, right? Thanks.

it wasn't may issue. It was a prohibition. At that time, the SCOTUS would have said that the BoR only apply to the federal government and not he states and territories. A guy in Texas 13 years later did just that, but it was a handgun licensing law that Texas had at the time. He was in deeper shit for killing a cop and being a white married to a person of color, but he gave it a try anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Cruikshank

Second in command of what? Old western movies don't accurately depict how the system worked. The sheriff was the elected guy in county seat. Deputies, including Earp, were assigned to districts. Tombstone happened to be in his. Same way it works today. The resident deputy of Farson, Wyoming, isn't second in command to the guy in Green River.

FWIW, may issue vs shall issue is a 14A issue.
Edit to add
Town Marshall simply means police Chief of one. His later job with the county.

[jimmy the one]

18. state prohibitions on carrying concealed

johnston: it wasn't may issue. It was a prohibition.

Let me repeat the question, your blowing smoke must be getting in your eyes.

previous johnston: And it wasn't a gun ban. It was a carry ban.
jimmy: So from here on out can we presume that may issue ccw law is not a violation of 2ndA since it is just a concealed 'carry' ban, not a gun ban.. there's only a right to keep & 'bear' arms, & bear means in a confrontational manner, as per 2ndA & scalia.

May issue laws, or prohibition of concealed carry - both are limitations on carrying concealed firearms.
So then tombstone arizona's prohibition on carrying concealed was not considered a violation of 2ndA, eh? .. carry prohibition except for law, deputies, & posse, which makes it de facto may issue - for the time period where a few hundred residents.

I list only 3 of about a dozen states:
Kentucky: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons. (1891).
Montana: The right of any person to keep .. but nothing herein contained shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. (1889).
Louisiana: The right of each citizen to keep and .. but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person. Art. I, § 11 (1974). http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm

[gejohnston]

19. Good for them.

which has nothing to do Arizona prior to statehood. Those state constitutions were valid until incorporation. So, I'm failing to see your point.

BTW, the Tombstone law applied to open carry unless it was in your hand. Once again, pre incorporation theory said all of the BoR applied only to the federal government.

So then tombstone arizona's prohibition on carrying concealed was not considered a violation of 2ndA, eh? .. carry prohibition except for law, deputies, & posse, which makes it de facto may issue - for the time period where a few hundred residents.

Tombstone could have established their own religion and banned freedom of assembly too based on the mentioned SCOTUS decision, what's your point?

Deputies were and are sworn police officers. Possies, if they were actually used, would be the same. Even then they would open carry, so your question is irrelevant.

[CTyankee]

20. my mother was born in 1911 in El Paso and used to tell me, with great disgust, how

Pancho Villa would ride into town, shooting it up and how they had to get under their beds for safety since they would shoot out windows. She hated guns and was much distraught when Texas changed its laws to allow people to carry them (I'm not sure what that is called in gun law parlance but I'm sure you know...this was a few years before she died in 2005 so you probably know which law it was). She was fearful that someone would take something she said by mistake and pull out a gun and shoot her. When she went into an assisted living facility in 2001 I was relieved to see a sign posted at the entrance forbidding anyone from bringing guns on the premises (this was in a suburb of Dallas called Farmer's Branch). I'm glad she didn't live to learn of the gun slaughter of children in Newtown...

[billh58]

21. It didn't take the NRA apologists

very long to swarm out of their swamp, did it?

[CTyankee]

23. well, I didn't know that much about Wyatt Earp before but they sure do. It's amazing how

detailed all this stuff is. I get the feeling this kind of stuff fascinates them. To each his own, I guess. I'm pretty deep in the art history weeds and some people would find that a bit much.

But I didn't realize how much into it they seem to be. Taken with it, I would say. Historical drama. Perhaps they see themselves in it. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong about learning history, I like it myself. They make for some good stories. It just comes with a different overall world view regarding guns that I don't share. For instance, I tell the story about my mother's gun aversion because it was based in actually LIVING with it when she was a child. And my family suffered through gun violence. It makes for a very different world view, IMO...

[GreenStormCloud]

26. Would a U.S. gun ban have disarmed Pancho Villa? N/T

[CTyankee]

27. Oh, I think it was just a factof life in El Paso of 1911. The wild, wild West, you know.

My mother was genuinely freaked out by the idea that people could carry guns around. Before whatever law was passed in TX around 2000-2005 she never talked about being fearful. Certainly not when I was growing up in Dallas in the 50s. We did have one neighbor who had a gun which she kept in her glove compartment. She ended up using it on her husband and getting convicted and sent to prison. She was pardoned by Gov. Allan Shivers as he was departing office (she was a big contributor to his gubernatorial campaign). It made front page news in the Dallas Morning News at the time. Now it probably would be buried somewhere...funny how things change...

[GreenStormCloud]

28. Pancho Villa was a revolutionary, leading a small army of revolutionist.

Pancho Villa was a nome de guerre. His real name was José Doroteo Arango Arámbula. He was a general in a Mexican Revolutionary Army. In 1916 he, with the troops under him, attacked Columbus, NM, killing 18 Americans and losing 80 of his own men. (The U.S. military garrison had machine-guns and the civilians were well armed and shot back.) I don't think he cared about any U.S. laws.

[CTyankee]

29. Yes, I knew who he was. I guess I have to take my mother at her word that it actually

WAS Villa but it is immaterial anyway. El Paso was a pretty wild place back in that day...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

22. Just my opinions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyatt_Earp
I happen to like Wyatt. I believe he was an interesting personality. During the 19th century many areas grew rather quickly and various factions developed in many areas with an interest in profiting from the growth. In many places some factions developed hostilities for others.

This part of history is among a few of the more romantic ideals related to pro-RKBA thinking. Since frontier areas were sometimes understaffed with law enforcement, there was a strong motivation to be prepared for self-defense. Some accounts of conflicts have been romanticized into good v evil stories.

Wyatt was a business man. Among the investments popular at the time were saloons, mines, brothels and cattle. Sheriff Shibell appointed Wyatt Deputy Sheriff for the area including Tombstone, which he held for about 3 months. Doesn't sound like much but that position was worth about $950,000 a year in today's dollars. The Clantons and McLaurys were regarded as outlaws. Their visits to town were marked by conflicts and violence. People gravitated to towns because of profit and the protection of the law. Violence would often interfere with folks spending their money which meant Wyatt would lose money.

In my opinion, the outlaw cowboy involvement in the nighttime robbery and murders on a stagecoach on March 15, 1881 cemented their position as hostile enemies of the Earps on a personal level. The coach was carrying silver worth over $600,000 in today's dollars and with the Earps mining investments, such threats can't be ignored.

"During the hearing into the Gunfight at the O.K. Corral, Wyatt testified that he offered the US$3,600 in Wells Fargo reward money ($1,200 per robber) to Ike Clanton and Frank McLaury in return for information about the identities of the three robbers. Wyatt testified that he had other motives for his plan as well: he hoped that arresting the murderers would boost his chances for election as Cochise County sheriff."

Make no mistake, business men of the time having an interest in law and justice was not only righteous but downright profitable. You didn't have to be a good shot as a gunfighter to be lawman but you did stand a better chance of living longer if you were.

The law against firearms carry within town limits provided a lawful point for the Earps to oppose the outlaws and to indirectly profit as well. I don't consider Wyatt a traitor. Wyatt was fundamentally an opportunist.

Arizona did not become a state until 1912. Arizona became part of the US about a month before Wyatt was born. Wyatt was 33 years old at the time of the famous gunfight. Tombstone was a town going through incredible growth. Tombstone was founded in March of 1879 and had a population of about 100. Those folks mostly lived in tents and small shacks. Within 10 months the population grew by 10 times to 1,000. Within 7 years Tombstone had a population of 14,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone,_Arizona

"Within two years of its founding, although far distant from any other metropolitan city, Tombstone boasted a bowling alley, four churches, an ice house, a school, two banks, three newspapers, and an ice cream parlor, alongside 110 saloons, 14 gambling halls, and numerous dancing halls and brothels. All of these were situated among and on top of a large number of dirty, hardscrabble mines."
...
Less than 2 years after the founding, "... the richly appointed Grand Hotel was opened, adorned with fine oil paintings, thick Brussels carpets, toilet stands, elegant chandeliers, silk-covered furniture, walnut furniture, a kitchen with hot and cold running water."

Tombstone, 132 years ago, had a law against carrying within the town limits. Wyatt, acting as a lawman, enforced the law. I'm sure there are many LEOs and military personnel today who are indifferent to particular laws and policies but nevertheless act as instruments of those domestic and foreign policies by putting their lives on the line for the sake of ensuring that justice survive.

Wyatt's survival of those times is a testament more to his growth in wisdom than his good shooting.

Does that kind of thing still occur in Arizona? Do squads of cops in say Phoenix still have shootouts without outlaws? Probably.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Arizona

- "On foot, any adult person who is not a "prohibited possessor" may openly carry a loaded firearm visible to others in a belt holster, gun case or scabbard. Generally, a person must be at least 18 years of age to possess or openly carry a firearm."
- "Arizona residents at least 21 years old can carry a concealed weapon without a permit as of July 29, 2010."

So why don't towns in AZ still have carry restrictions? Didn't they work?

[CTyankee]

24. It is interesting, from a historian's point of view. However, we have evolved as a matter of

eventuality in life, so today is today. So we have modern solutions to modern problems.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. I'm not exactly sure...

...where you're coming from or how that relates but to the Earps or the OP but I certainly respect your opinion.

Have a nice weekend.

[CTyankee]

30. Sorry. I was just saying that "that was then, this is now" which is what I meant by

"evolving."

Hopefully, we have progressed from what we were and what we did and what we believed at one time to what we know now. I would like to believe in progress...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. Progress is the only hope...

...for anything that isn't already perfect.