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Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:08 AM

 

In an idealistic world why would anyone need any bullet or gun unless selfish?

Let's say for theoretical sake that there are different congress, different judges, different mindset of most of the people(a majority of the people as majority rules). And a zero tolerance to any breaker of the law like teenage drinkers have.
(Let's not argue about how that would occur here let's just say it did)

So that there are no more bullets in the street.
why would then anyone ever need another bullet, or a functioning gun whatsoever?

Unless one is selfish what would they need bullets for?

Without bullets no one is killed or harmed by a gun.
Yet, one can still collect, still use for sport, still hunt, and still get rid of rodents and even wild animals.(One can also have tranquilizer guns).

The only thing missing is the kill of many persons at one time.

and without bullets, it at least takes a little thinking and more time to do mass harm, or even fatal harm to oneself or ones spouse and family.

Of course, the rightwing extremists won't be able to delusionally think they can overthrow a government like they corruptly wish to happen, but that's a good thing, as there is no way anyone would go along with them. (Thankfully).

Break the cycle, get rid of the NRA and their rightwing million dollar suit talking points and well written paragraphs, and change the mindset of people. Just like happened with smoking,
and ironically, like THEY did to a woman's right to choice.

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Reply In an idealistic world why would anyone need any bullet or gun unless selfish? (Original post)
graham4anything Mar 2013 OP
Bay Boy Mar 2013 #1
slackmaster Mar 2013 #2
Kolesar Mar 2013 #4
Violet_Crumble Mar 2013 #24
graham4anything Mar 2013 #5
slackmaster Mar 2013 #6
graham4anything Mar 2013 #8
slackmaster Mar 2013 #9
graham4anything Mar 2013 #11
Travis_0004 Mar 2013 #23
Trunk Monkey Mar 2013 #31
rrneck Mar 2013 #3
graham4anything Mar 2013 #7
rrneck Mar 2013 #13
graham4anything Mar 2013 #15
rrneck Mar 2013 #16
dkf Mar 2013 #10
graham4anything Mar 2013 #12
dkf Mar 2013 #14
jmg257 Mar 2013 #17
freshwest Mar 2013 #18
Kingofalldems Mar 2013 #19
Crepuscular Mar 2013 #20
graham4anything Mar 2013 #21
Crepuscular Mar 2013 #22
Warren Stupidity Mar 2013 #25
DrDan Mar 2013 #26
Niceguy1 Mar 2013 #27
graham4anything Mar 2013 #28
Niceguy1 Mar 2013 #29
graham4anything Mar 2013 #30
Trunk Monkey Mar 2013 #32

Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:14 AM

1. I'm confused...

...how do we have no bullets but still allow for sport hunting?

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Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:15 AM

2. Self-defense, subsistence hunting, or pest control.

 

So that there are no more bullets in the street.
why would then anyone ever need another bullet, or a functioning gun whatsoever?


Because there will always be violent criminals armed with things other than firearms, or even just bare hands.

There will always be people who need to hunt to supplement their diets.

There will always be a need in agriculture to control undesired wild or feral animals.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:27 AM

4. Makes me want to emigrate to Australia to get away from the likes of you

You blythly ignore the reality that a world without thousands of firearm deaths is real.
"Imagine" -- John Lennon

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 07:12 AM

24. There's far fewer like that in Australia, but we do have guns here...

The police are armed, and the strict laws ban semi-automatics and pump action shotguns only, not all guns. But it's the culture in the US that needs to change, because here I just don't know of people who see guns as an extension of themselves and *need* to own one to prove themselves as a person. That culture just doesn't exist here, as far as I'm aware...

btw, congrats to the hosts on getting this group up and running. It's been long overdue

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:27 AM

5. This was already all debunked in OP.

 

If you read the OP,Everyone of the NRA soundbytes, and yours above is 100% accounted for in the scenerio above.

There is ZERO reason to have a bullet. ZERO.

unless one wants to kill or harm another.

the strawmen about the government, or even a violent mafia GANG, are all bull.
You can't kill the Mafia. Because if you kill one, twenty will revenge it.
Foolish to think a gun does anything.

and wild animals I gave that answer and others in the OP

Being afraid of a Boogie men and paranoia strawmen most certainly would say to me, that person does not need a gun, as they would have the Twitchy,Itchy, Trigger finger, as such,
would be prone to shoot themselves, their children, their pets, their spouse, their family and friends, etc.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:29 AM

6. I don't agree with your claim of debunking.

 

The idea of a mini tranquilizer gun that I could use on rats and rabbits sounds kind of amusing.

However, it's not clear what I would do with the tranquilized rodents.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #6)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:36 AM

8. Call an exterminator and they set traps and they come back and remove them

 

and how does having bullets in the street out of your property affecting your being able to get rid of a rodent on your property

same old distractions 24/7/365 same old circular denying that guns are not needed in the streets with bullets

bullets are not needed.
A private person doesn't throw a bunker busting bomb on a field mouse.

Again, the streets would not be your farm should you have one or your crops, as that is your personal property

Read the OP. end of conversation as everything has been debunked

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:38 AM

9. After the exterminator removes them, then what?

 

Read the OP. end of conversation as everything has been debunked

You're just indulging an impossible fantasy world free of violence and guns. It's not going to happen.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #9)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:41 AM

11. Then another nra soundbyte bites the dust. No bullet in the streets are needed.

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #11)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 06:07 PM

23. I'll agree with your theoretical scenario.

 

If the scenario ever comes true, I'll get rid of all my ammo. Until that day comes true (and it never will), then I'll keep my guns and ammo.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 10:13 AM

31. There is ZERO reason to have a bullet. ZERO.

 

So, you're doing away with criminals in your utopia?

Are you going to kill all the Coyotes, Mountain Lions and Bears in Colorado?

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Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:21 AM

3. Selfishness (and greed)

are part of being human. Civilization and all of human relations are designed to equitably distribute resources. The best way to reduce selfishness is through education, compassion, and the civilized distribution of resources. But those tools will not fundamentally change the inherent flaws in the human species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence

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Response to rrneck (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:30 AM

7. So what are you arguing here?

 

Are you arguing that there is any single need for a bullet that can't be made obsolete and have a replacement for the cult of the bullet?
There is no education to stop it, no safe way, no nothing.

100% of every scenerio can be debunked in having any need for any bullet.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #7)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:46 AM

13. Guns should not be a fetish object

nor should bullets. People have been violent since there were people. You will no more change the nature of people by eliminating bullets than by eliminating guns or any other weapon.

The reason guns are fetishized is to manipulate people for profit. They like 'em, we hate 'em. And there are organizations that profit from that attitude. Buy into that myth and you are not a citizen, you're a consumer. And that's how the 1% wins the culture war.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #13)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:59 AM

15. No other

 

No other form (except for a terroristic type) can in minutes kill a multitude of human beings of all ages.
Any other form can hurt one person in a crowd, but the rest of the crowd has time to react.

With a bullet, the entire crowd is at risk, with more than one gun, everyone in a greater perimeter is in mortal danger.

Take away the bullet and well, the whole town is safe even if one person might be hurt(and there is no assurance in a stab wound that it would be fatal. As oppposed to shooting in an area with mega people.

Bullets in streets can indeed be gotten rid of.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #15)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:29 PM

16. Human beings are very good at cooperation.

If you want workable public policy to reduce violence in society, forcing those with a propensity to violence to band together is probably the wrong way to go about it.

Ever heard of wilding?

Of course cooperation, like any other tool in our evolutionary toolkit, can be used for good or ill. We don't need guns to do evil. All we need is injustice. Jared Diamond in Collapse shows that the Rwandan genocide had more to do with the inequitable distribution of inherited land than with ideology.

Take a away all the guns and you will have a Sandy Hook every day from people who could not defend themselves or were percieved as defenseless by others who don't really need a gun to brutalize them. The difference is that it won't become a "national debate". They will just be a statistic. Most people understand that. That's why the current gun control initiatives are have such a hard time in congress. Real people in the real world will not willingly give up the option of self defense without some assurance that we can provide it.

You want gun control? Solve the self defense problem.

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Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:40 AM

10. That idealistic world doesn't exist. Nor is it guaranteed we will have a society that functions

 

Forever.

These are the good times IMO.

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Response to dkf (Reply #10)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:45 AM

12. Your bullets are a false icon

 

another nra sound byte hits the dust

Freeing the mind of those chains, makes life more pleasant for the world from this second forward.

Guns and bullets are a prison one becomes beholden to. A false icon so to say.
Like a fairweather friend, the gun shall desert you in that supposed faux moment of need.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #12)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:58 AM

14. I have no bullets. But I don't pretend things will always be organized and civilized.

 

Frankly I'm depending on other people to defend me...hopefully they step up.

Natural disasters, a collapsed financial system, global warming, food shortages, maybe even riots by people who protest over inequality, all are possible.


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Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:36 PM

17. Most 'perceived needs' for guns are based on selfishness.

Selfish in that we just want to have something (collect, fun, hunting, sport, hobby, new, enpowerment...); or selfish in that we need something due to fear (self-defense, home defense, common defense, wild animals, the govmint...).

Of course it's selfishness. How many times have we heard 'the 2nd amendment isn't about need' as the NRA argument against the question 'why does anyone need an AR'? (though of course the 2nd was all about need - a well-regulated militia was at one time thought "necessary".


THE problem is getting past that selfishness. Getting gunners to feel a diminishing of their own perceived needs because they realize the damage guns cause when too many others have the same access. The selfishness in wanting unfettered access, the fear of confiscation re:registration, the selfishness/fear of controlled capacity, the fear of being a victim, &c have to be reduced however/whenever possible,

Unfortunately it takes a massive dose of tragedy to cause that to happen even just a little bit. While a few are re-examining their needs, the rest are stocking up and getting them while they can.


"why would then anyone ever need another bullet, or a functioning gun whatsoever?"
Selfishness, and fear.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #17)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:18 PM

18. +1. Both emotions are played consistently by the gun lobby to increase sales, not peace or justice.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #18)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:38 PM

19. I just reread the SOP for this group and found

numerous violations and violators on this thread alone. At least the way I read the SOP. Looks like we have a few NRA supporters.

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Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 02:31 PM

20. Explain please

per the OP;

"Without bullets no one is killed or harmed by a gun.
Yet, one can still collect, still use for sport, still hunt,
and still get rid of rodents and even wild animals."


So in the theoretical fantasy world that you describe in the OP, do bullets still exist to be able to be used for sport, to hunt or to kill rodents and wild animals? It would appear that they would if I'm reading that statement correctly, if that's not the case, please correct me.

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #20)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:59 PM

21. Use a bow and arrow like the original Native Americans did before the interlopers took their land

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #21)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 05:15 PM

22. I do

Thanks for the suggestion, I already do, both a recurve and a compound, as well as a crossbow. I was simply asking for clarification in your hypothetical, was there an exception for sport shooting, hunting and predator control in terms of access to bullets or were they eliminated from existence completely? From the wording of your post, it was unclear.

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Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 07:47 AM

25. Or just enact strict regulation, as other countries have done, and eliminate most gun violence.

 

People could still hunt. Sport shooting would still be permitted. But the infantile cowboy culture mentality of packing heat would be over, and nobody would be legally possessing military style weapons.

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Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 07:53 AM

26. to deal with fear and paranoia

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Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 08:16 AM

27. sounds good in theory

But practical application would be unworkable. How do you control predators both human and animal?

And do we really think that criminals will follow this law if they don't follow the laws we currently have?

And how do we adequately protect a disarmed society?

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #27)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 08:20 AM

28. Who asked ZIMMERMAN to protect me with his gun and bullet

 

Why are you wanting to control all those that don't want the NRA or guns/bullets in the street,
when the last thing you profess to want is to have controls put on your precious bullets and false icon guns?

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #28)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 08:32 AM

29. why are you making

Assumptio.s? I never said any of that in my reply.

I just brought up somethings that need to be considered when making such a huge change in our society. I didn't even bring up hunting. Are we going. To ban that, too?

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #29)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 09:05 AM

30. Bow and arrow, like the Native Americans did, before the interlopers brought firearms to the country

 

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Response to graham4anything (Original post)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 10:37 AM

32. I went back and re-read your OP and you are correct

 

Assuming all your other criteria are met, there really wouldn't be any reason to own a firearm.

Now we just have to work on getting your prerequisites taken care of

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