Is anyone else disgusted by OPs using the Oregon Umpqua Massacre to blame 'gun-nut' Bernie Sanders?

[99th_Monkey]

Bernie has a well thought-out set of policies he supports (and has voted for) for sensible regulation of firearms, here:

Meanwhile, I don't think there is a single voice among gun-hugging Republicans favoring sensible firearm regulations, such as those supported by Bernie. Aren't these the people who really stand in the way of ever sensible gun regs? Aren't these NRA shills who actually deserve to be blamed, if blaming is your thing?

Anyway, I just needed to get this off my chest. Obama wanting to "politicize" the gun issue is one thing, but I don't think attacking Bernie Sanders on this issue is what he had in mind. So let's keep it above the belt. State your own candidates proposals, what they support, etc., even contrast them with others if need be, but let's not exploit the Oregon mass shooting by blaming other candidates in the Dem Primary for the tragedy. Such attacks on Sanders are wildly misplaced and very unseemly IMHO.

BTW - I live in Oregon, so this may be hitting harder than others, so I'll own that.

[SamKnause]

1. No, I passed being disgusted long ago.

I just ignore all of the false attacks.

They have accused Bernie of everything under the sun.

I think it amuses them.

Sad little people.

[Mojorabbit]

58. Yes, shows a total lack of class. nt

[HassleCat]

2. All or nothing

Many of my friends are all-or-nothing when it comes to particular issues. They will refuse to consider anyone who fails to vote to ban red crayons from elementary schools, if that's their issue. They don't do nuance.

[MindfulOne]

3. I knew it would happen and it's very unfortunate.

Oh well.

[HooptieWagon]

4. It's to be expected.

and they'll go deeper in the gutter the more she plummets in the polls. It's sad and pathetic, but it's all they got to defend a war-mongering corporatist who's bff with Henry Kissinger.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. Haven't seen any, I've got those types all on ignore I guess.

In fact, I just realized the reason I can't see my own OP in GD : P on Hillary's support with black folks collapsing

( http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/01/hillary-clintons-support-from-black-voters-plunges-in-a-new-poll/?postshare=4081443797590956 )

is because I have 'Hillary Clinton' in my trash list.

[virtualobserver]

32. That is pretty funny.....inadvertent self censorship, sort of....

[Scootaloo]

6. Disgusted, but not surprised

[Enthusiast]

7. Me too.

[Autumn]

8. Disgusting and transparent that they exploit this. Bernie wants gun control, as do most Americans.

They problem lies with the republicans and the NRA.

[Cleita]

15. I think the NRA these days would qualify as a domestic terrorist organization much as the IRA

was in Ireland back in the days of the troubles. I will applaud the first Governor or President who would do this and arrest Wayne LaPierre and his minions as terrorists because that is what they are. Once they are out of the way, good legislation on the gun issue can move forward.

[99th_Monkey]

18. Actually, the Oregon shooter is said to have been a big fan of the IRA.

I'm not going to post a link to it, as I've been trying to limit my exposure to
the non-stop coverage this jerk is getting. I need more distance right now.

but thanks for weighing in with your post

[SheilaT]

9. I am very aware that his take on guns

is vastly different from mine, as I'm an anti-gun whack job.

But I recognize that I'm at the outer fringe in this area, and don't ever expect a candidate to be at all close to me, so I simply ignore the gun stance of any and all candidates.

[99th_Monkey]

19. I too would go further than Sanders

I was working on RFK's campaign in CA when he was assassinated, which
made me a believer in strict regulations on firearms, like many other nations
have, and which obviously work to reduce gun violence.

[Ed Suspicious]

10. It's not like the attacks are goint to save Hillary. If you sink Bernie, Bernie

Last edited Fri Oct 2, 2015, 03:53 PM - Edit history (2)

loses along with her (although I dont think thats what will happen. Bernie is hella strong). Just saying they don't win by torpedoing Bernie unless winning is electing republicans.

[Cleita]

12. It's just a bunch of lies. If anyone saw his interview on Chris Hayes last night

about the latest shooting, they wouldn't say that. Yes, I'm fed up with it like I'm fed up that none of our elected politicians will do anything about regulating guns and ammo. Bernie has tried to bring legislation about this to the floor but the Republicans in charge stand in his way.

[FlatBaroque]

13. Just keep in mind that the purpose is to lay down some bait

in the hopes to get some to react in a way that will lead to their silence. That idiotic website was set up with this sort of ratf*%kery as one of its primary objectives.

[jeff47]

14. No, I long ago abandoned the idea that anything was beneath them. (nt)

[MissDeeds]

22. And all the while many of them support a war hawk

for president. Oh the irony.

[YabaDabaNoDinoNo]

16. Not really expected it actually because FEAR is all she has to run on

[Spirochete]

17. They seem to almost be

gloating over the shooting, as it gives them a chance to take another shot at Sanders.

[99th_Monkey]

21. That's it exactly .. gloating. You nailed it.

& ruthless opportunism I might add

[passiveporcupine]

20. I am 100% for Bernie, but

I think he does need to evolve on his gun stance.

Yes, he believes in strong gun control laws, which I'm happy about, but his recent speech on the Roseburg shooting also mentions that we need more attention to mental health issues.

I think that is a dog whistle...that the gun nutters all use (I'm not calling Bernie a gun nutter). Mental health issues are no worse here than in other 1st world countries where mass shootings are not nearly as serious as here. Especially in Australia, where limiting gun purchases has really killed the mass shooting sprees.

I think he needs to be willing to acknowledge that we cannot stop this with mental health support, as many of these people would never even reach out for mental health support in the first place. The issue here is our gun culture...our culture of "stand your ground", and the ability to buy any kind of gun without much hassle. And our media, which promotes the Rambo suicide type to go for the big splash.

He needs to stop using mental health as part of his argument against limiting the kinds of guns we can purchase in this country. And who can own a gun and how you get to own a gun.

I think over time he will evolve on this. This is one of two issues I wish he was stronger on (progressively)...this and his stance on Israel. But nobody is perfect and if I only disagree with him on two issues, that's pretty damn good.

[99th_Monkey]

25. That's an interesting interpretation of Sanders' referencing mental health

I never really thought that was problematic; I mean why wouldn't that be helpful? And I'm
not convinced that good mental health services are just as readily accessible in the US as
they are in most other 1st world nations.

"In the U.S., only 41.1 percent of people with mental health disorders receive treatment. In other parts of the world, treatment is highly correlated with how developed the country is, and with how much of the country’s gross domestic product is spent on healthcare. Better treatment rates are generally seen in nations with universal healthcare, according to Kessler. In the U.S., he says, it’s not the lowest socioeconomic class that has trouble (they have Medicaid, which usually covers it), it’s the second-lowest socioeconomic group that can’t get care. While treatment rates have gone up in recent years (especially for pharmaceuticals), the rate of mental health disorders has not changed much."
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/10/why-more-americans-suffer-from-mental-disorders-than-anyone-else/246035/#slide9

I'm not aware of gun-nuts who are calling for more readily available mental health services
to help curb gun violence. Do you mean, when gun-nuts say "it's people, not guns"? If this is
what you mean, then I question if that's really what Bernie means to be conveying.

I appreciate your weighing in btw, and I'm not trying to be snarky. This is exactly the kind of
dialogue I was wanting to see more of, rather than accusing Bernie of gun-nuttery.

[passiveporcupine]

28. there are a lot of gun nuts on the mental health band wagon right now

And even here I see people posting about whether or not he was on depressioin or anxiety medication. It's a cop out for the real problem of guns in this country.

Just because mental health might be made more available (and it's always been available to me, even when I was unemployed and totally broke) it doesn't mean people are going to use it. A lot of guys have a thing about being perceived as weak if they have to see a mental health professional about anything.

So, while I encourage more access to mental health, and more awareness of the public to alert professionals if they think someone might need help, that is really not going to fix our problem here with mass killings. You cannot force people to get mental health until after they have done something bad.

[99th_Monkey]

38. You make some good points, yet I remain somewhat skeptical ...

If you have a link demonstrating there are "a lot of gun nuts on mental health bandwagon" i'd be
interested to see it. Til then I'm still somewhat skeptical of that claim.

I can see your point about not confusing the two issues, but only if it's clear to me that the mental
health argument is actually provides "cover" for gun-nuttery to argue against more stringent gun
controls.

[passiveporcupine]

40. The conversations I was involved in, over the last few years, cannot be linked to,

as they are on a private forum; but I think if you go to any gun forum, you will see this argument come up over and over again...it's not the guns, it's the crazy people who use them. It's caused by antidepressents. It's caused by anything but guns being available to anyone who wants one.

It's usually the gun collectors who defend the right to own any kind of gun the strongest, and of all the gun collectors I've argued with, mental health was always the only problem. Gun laws won't help anything. Gun restrictions of any kind are against the constitution (regardless if they would save many lives).

[99th_Monkey]

50. Ok

I won't be going to gun-nut websites, but thanks for letting me know where you're sourcing .. And thanks for the conversation.

[Dont call me Shirley]

33. And much of mental health treatment is either unavailable, too slow, too expensive, ineffective.

The psychological community is coming up with new therapies which work faster and more effectively. Vibrational sound therapy, light and color therapies, energy meridian therapies, meditation, actively teaching self-love.

[99th_Monkey]

51. Apparently these new therapies can't come too soon. Nt

[TM99]

30. As a mental health professional I disagree.

Until we have universal health care in this country where anyone who needs or wants it can get mental health services free and without stigmatizing, then yes, the mental health issue are extremely important when looking at the gun situation in America.

It is not the only thing by far, but it is a very large part.

[passiveporcupine]

37. I guess we will have to agree to disagree

Mental health is important, and it is probably why so many of these guys go off the cliff, but it is not the "fix" for this problem. I think it's part of it, and necessary, but a lot of it is gettnig these Rambo style guns out of the hands of citizens.

[passiveporcupine]

56. So, here is another case where the shooter had mental issues

and sought help, but it still did not stop this from happening.

Two officials said that after the shooting, the gunman's family told investigators that he suffered from mental health issues and had sought treatment.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-umpqua-community-college-shooting/

So how do we fix this through mental health? Do we start locking up everyone?

In this case, he was known to have mental health issues and still had an arsenal of guns legally obtained by himself and family members. This has to stop.

Police searched his residence and found seven firearms -- two pistols, four rifles and a shotgun, she said.

All the guns were legal, obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer

[JDPriestly]

46. How would you change the gun culture?

My belief is that you probably cannot change it through legislation.

The problem with the NRA mentality is the anger.

And our entire popular and entertainment culture is focused on glorifying violent behavior.

All these law enforcement shows? They are all about avenging wrongs. It's no wonder we have so much gun violence.

I agree with Bernie on the gun issue. I have relatives who hunt. I live in a city. I don't want my neighbors to have or carry guns, but I see no reason why my relatives who live in rural areas and who hunt for food should have to have permits to have guns. Or background checks for that matter.

I think the background checks probably would not stop most of the killings. I think that the rules already require lawyers and mental health practitioners and others in professions in which they can spot mentally ill people to report people who pose a credible threat to others to the police. That is already in place. But the people who commit these terrible crimes don't either don't get spotted or don't get reported.

It would not be right to prohibit anyone who takes a medication for depression or some other mental illness or problem from having a gun. That most would agree, would take the gun control too far.

I can't see how you would write legislation that would work on this issue.

It is a cultural problem. Face it. We glorify anger.

Look at all the posts that get removed from DU because DUers can't discuss problems without losing their tempers.

[passiveporcupine]

47. I really don't know

I wish I (or anyone) had the right answers. I think it will be a multi-pronged effort, but I am still thinking if Australia could do it, so can we. Hunting is still allowed in Australia. No one is saying all guns have to be taken away.

[JDPriestly]

48. I would like to see us require that every gun be insured to cover the possible cost of damages

caused to persons and things by that gun and of course all guns.

That would be better than just collecting the names of gun owners most of whom just mind their own business.

I think that most of us on DU probably have no idea just how many of our friends own guns. I certainly don't. I fear that some of my neighbors may own them.

One of the great dangers of having a gun in the house is the ease of obtaining a gun in a situation involving domestic violence.

Families can be shattered, and tragedies will occur when guns, alcohol and domestic disputes are mixed.

The public pays attention to these mass murders. But the numbers of individual suicides and shootings (not always resulting in killings) by family members, in bars, by friends, etc. is pretty awful too.

And registering guns will do nothing about these other victims of gun violence, victims of perfectly nice, sane appearing people.

I don't think that the proposed gun laws by themselves will change our culture much. And changing our culture and our understanding of our values is what is required.

[Dont call me Shirley]

70. Yes this culture glorifies violence, hatred, unchecked anger/rage, divisiveness, ridicule and attack

[SoapBox]

23. There were multiple blah, blah, blahs on Reddit.

With comments all over the place.

What I kept thinking, look at the whole package.

[ornotna]

24. Just another weapon in their warped arsenal

Not surprised at all.

[floriduck]

26. I listened to a former Roseburg city council woman,

Who is a Republican, blabber on the NRA line, "We need more guns to protect us, not fewer." I'd like to ask how a) doing nothing to curb gun show sales and private party sales is the best alternative, and b) why is it the national polls, including NRA members support stronger laws, and c) how does better gun regulation adversely impact existing law-abiding gun owner.

I own a hand gun myself. I bought it for protecting my wife, dogs and me when we camp in the wilderness. It is unloaded, locked away unless in the wild.

[frylock]

27. These are sad, miserable little people that would attempt to link Sen Sanders to these events.

[arcane1]

29. No low is too low, from the Clinton Camp.

Whatever It Takes (tm)

[NorthCarolina]

31. It's because (a) They got nothin', and (b) they still got nothin'. eom

[840high]

34. Yes. Those posters are going on ignore.

[passiveporcupine]

42. Let it go

the only thing that matters is how they post here.

[Le Taz Hot]

53. It's because they're supporting the "right" candidates.

The administrators came out very early for Hillary -- it's why they get away with so much and why we're put on time out. I rarely even go in GD-P anymore as it's a bloody waste of time. Besides, I have most of the assholes on ignore.

[libodem]

39. I have not seen them

But that sounds terribly distasteful. I'm sorry to hear it.

What a poor reflection on the person whom they do endorse.

I finger wag them.

[AgingAmerican]

41. It's all they have

There are 6 or 7 stories they post on endless loop, always expecting a different result, but never getting one.

Most of them are single sentence snippets that they take out of context. Others are like the OPs you mention, where they take a vote wildly out of context.

It's all they have. Let them run with it. It says a hella lot more about them than it does Sanders and it only drives people AWAY from their preferred candidate.

[Fairgo]

43. Loss of Reason

What I find most troubling is the easy willingness to abandon values, logic and reason in service of identity politics. It is the core brain function of nationalism, which is to say one step up from lizard brain function. When discourse devolves into war chants, we resemble soccer hooligans more than democrats.

[JDPriestly]

44. I agree with Bernie Sanders on this.

Gun control legislation is proposed in good faith with wonderful intentions.

But it is a bit like our drug legislation, as difficult as it would be to pass it, it would be even harder to enforce it.

We can certainly enforce laws against open carry in our cities. If the police stop a car and find guns being carried without a permit, they can arrest someone.

But just requiring permits for guns is not going to change much. Would we then require people to register all the guns they may already have?

And is a history of mental illness really a basis for denying gun permits?

What about all the people who are treated for mental illness, take medications, say, for depression or even insomnia? Are they to be singled out?

To deprive Americans of even a very narrow meaning of the right guaranteed by the Second Amendment, we would need to hold a hearing on each individual person in my view.

As for imposing liability on gun manufacturers, guns can be owned and purchased for self-defense or for hunting or for simply sport shooting, all legal purposes. The gun manufacturer cannot determine for which of those purposes the gun it produces and sells is used.

I'm with Bernie on this one.

Anger management training is the secret. And we could require anger management programming on our media if we wanted to. But that would mean requiring TV stations and all media to set aside time for anger management news and programming, and that verges on propaganda no doubt in the view of some of the more angry of our citizens.

This is a moral and psychological, ethical issue in my view.

I support Bernie on his decisions on this issue.

I think a lot of the legislation that is proposed to save lives and prevent gun deaths will not achieve the goal it is proposed to achieve.

[gregcrawford]

45. Bernie is one of my senators...

... and I am NOT a pacifist, so don't nobody want to bad-mouth him to my face if they like their face the way it is.

NOT disavowing liars is can only damage a certain someone's campaign.

I think it was Joseph Goebbels who said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "If you tell a lie often enough, people will believe it."

And it was Voltaire who said, "Anyone who can make you believe lies, can make you commit atrocities." Or words to that effect.

It disturbs me deeply to think that ANY Duer would sink that low. This has got to be the work of some a them there outside agitators.

My heart goes out to Oregonians, but my HATE goes out to Wayne LaPierre. And for the record, I am a lifelong gun owner who supports gun control, as any responsible adult should. Those whose emotional maturity is stunted at the age of six... well, they ain't much hope for them.

I have vented.

[beam me up scottie]

49. Yes, but not surprised.

They blamed him for Sandy Hook and Gabby Giffords too.

Some people have no shame.

[peacebird]

52. It's predictable. Pathetic, but what else have they got?

Hillary barely beat Bernie in fundraising the last quarter, her poll numbers are slipping month after month, and the billionaires can only vote so often (tho they do own the voting machines, so that is something...)

[jfern]

54. Of course we're hearing a lot about this issue

Because it's the only issue where Sanders isn't more liberal than Hillary. Of course the idea he's a "gun nut" is ridiculous. He has a D- or F rating from the NRA. Hillary supporter Howard Dean had an A rating.

[ejbr]

55. Just watched Hardball

segment where Chris and his guests surmised that Sanders supporters are ignorant of his stance on gun control, but will abandon him for Hillary once they compare the two. Thanks for posting this. No, I never entertained changing my vote as the reasons that I am voting for him are so very important that even a transgression on other issues will not sway me from my support for him. Chris and his guests seemed to think that Sanders supporters will countenance the continued bullshit of corporate greed, unending wars, and income inequality so that we can trust that Clinton is true to her word on this topic (Not that she isn't, but this single issue, as serious as it is, would not be enough for me to join her camp)

[99th_Monkey]

57. +100 nt

[GoneFishin]

61. "...will abandon him for Hillary once they compare the two...". Seems to be the current meme.

Another psyop being run to plant seeds of doubts in the minds of Sanders supporters about the determination of their fellow Sandernistas.

Screw those assholes. People are giving money and time that they can't afford to the Sanders campaign, and they are following the issues closely. If the most democratic and populist candidate does not get the nomination because of Third Way cheating and sleazy machinations we are not going to just fill the void with just any old republican lite corporatist because they have a D after their name.

[GoneFishin]

59. Another cheesy impotent attack against Bernie by desperados defending the indefensible.

[cui bono]

60. Haven't seen them yet.

Let me guess... are they in 'safe havens'?

[colsohlibgal]

62. Love The Bern But...

I heard Chris Hayes tee the issue up for him and he kind of offered a tepid response.

Bernie has voted against some gun measures in the past, which surprised me.

I am still for him all the way but he needs to evolve a little on his gun law stance.

[99th_Monkey]

63. I agree. I'd like him to have stronger positions on gun control too.

but the rest of his stances are so spot-on, it doesn't change my support for him.

[Zorra]

64. No; I am already beyond disgust, and am now in the profound loathing phase

of utter contempt for the conscienceless.

[n2doc]

65. I recommend putting them on ignore

They have nothing constructive to offer. Especially the low post count shit stirrers.

[99th_Monkey]

66. Yah. Thanks

I already do have some on ignore, but apparently not enough.

Having idiots on ignore creeps me out a little though, as i have no way of knowing, seeing or
responding to any kind of crap they might post under on of my posts or OPs. So I'm always
reluctant to do it, but I'll be reconsidering that.

[n2doc]

67. I just find that so many are really transparently trying to get people banned

There are there to provoke. I understand the reluctance. I sometimes log out to see what has been posted by folks on my ignore list, and generally am reminded of why they are there. But to each their own.

[99th_Monkey]

68. Thanks, I hadn't thought of logging out, to check on ignores. -nt-

[artislife]

69. This is their M.O.

I posted how gleeful they were about BLM. And now this.

The common thread is that they are happy to have dead bodies to shore up their candidate. There is such brick through the window pane mentality and they will hurl whatever brick they can. It doesn't matter if there are real victims in any of this. The only victim in their minds is the put upon H.


I really cannot stand her.

[malokvale77]

71. Yes very disgusted.

For some, any occasion to spread their lies will do.