Re: Manny. We're not there yet...

[TeeYiYi]

Last edited Sun Feb 10, 2019, 05:00 PM - Edit history (1)

(Cross-posted from my locked thread in GD.)

Manny should not have been PPRd based on TOS because it doesn't apply until after the general election season has begun:

"When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them."

"In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose."

"For presidential contests, election season BEGINS when both major-party nominees become clear."

It's still primary season. General election season has not yet begun and it won't begin until after we've actually elected someone to represent us. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have yet chosen a candidate.

Manny could say he's planning to write in Atilla the Hun for president and it wouldn't be against DU TOS as it's currently written. That line doesn't get crossed until AFTER we've actually chosen a Democratic candidate to proceed to the general election.

PPRing Manny is petty, divisive DU politics run amok. I'm disappointed to see that Skinner has inadvertently been dragged into and is now complicit in the obvious chicanery of the DU primary wars. I hope he'll reconsider his decision.

Manny deserves, minimally, to be reinstated until after we have chosen a Democratic candidate and the general election season has officially begun.

TYY

[zazen]

1. very grateful to Skinner/DU & I don't normally post on "Meta," but yes, I hope this decision is reconsidered n/t

[billhicks76]

11. Please Reinstate The Guy

Have a heart. It's the holidays. Not a good time to have anyone shunned. It's a very hard time for those whose families aren't intact. I'm sure DU will bring him back as he posts proflically because he cares and not to agitate. We have strong feelings here. My strong feelings are based on the fact that I don't like and distrust when someone is so close to the Bush family like the Clintons are. I love my party. I have met with countless democratic house and senate members because I care. We all want a world of peace, love and equality. Those at the executive level should be able to take and handle the heat if they want to hold the highest office on the planet and make decisions about how the world is organized and indeed our species very survival.

[potone]

2. Except that he didn't express ambivalence.

He stated that he would not vote for Hillary if she is the nominee. Am I not understanding something here?

[Fantastic Anarchist]

6. Yes. Yes, you are.

[TeeYiYi]

7. DUers have been threatening...

...to write in their primary candidate in the GE since this site began. Saying and doing are two different things. Saying it during the primaries is not the same as advocating for a third party candidate during the general election season. We're nowhere near the general election season yet and what Manny stated about not voting for Hillary is standard fare for DU during the primaries. He should not have been PPRd because of it.

If what Manny said is the standard for tombstoning DUers then there are a shitload of DUers that still stand to be nuked...and the purge has officially begun.

TYY

[840high]

15. We don't have a nominee yet.

[gregcrawford]

17. I have seen that sentiment expressed here more time than I can count...

... but those people were not banned, so something really stinks here. There is a double standard being applied, and that's just wrong. Manny was smart, funny, and insightful, but he did not suffer fools gladly, and he had ZERO tolerance for the kind of skulduggery that has been the hallmark of certain factions who have no compunctions about burning bridges.

I have not been here as long as many, but I'm older than most and I have endeavored to make a worthwhile contribution with the wisdom and insight I have gained through careful observation over several decades.

So here's an observation for ya: Manny didn't put a gun to anyone's head. He expressed his displeasure in the heat of the moment, but no one has to agree with him, no one sustained grievous wounds, and I really don't think Hillary gives a shit what's said here. I support Bernie, but if Hillary gets the nomination, so be it; I will support her. But when she transgresses, I will call her out for it, just as I have Obama.

Banning Manny was wrong. Period. And the malice I have witnessed during this brouhaha with the DNC does not reflect well on those who express it, nor on DU, which I have come to love and admire. But nobody's perfect, and loving and admiring something or someone doesn't mean I won't speak out when when they screw up. One very telling measure of someone's quality is demonstrated by how they react when they know they've made a mistake.

So there.

[potone]

39. I've got nothing against Manny.

Don't misunderstand me: I'm a Bernie supporter, too, and I don't like to see anyone banned unless their behavior is truly egregious. I think banning was excessive in this case, given that feelings are running high here. I was just pointing out that expressing ambivalence about voting for a candidate is not the same thing as stating that you won't vote for the Democratic nominee if it is not the person you want. But if others have done the same thing and suffered no consequences, then there is a double standard and that is wrong.

[Bubzer]

40. Except that's not what happened here. There is no Democratic nominee as yet. The ToS wasn't violated

Skinner is in the tank for hillary, and this was him striking down an opposing view. Nothing more, nothing less.
Given that certain Hillary supporters have done the same or worse, and Skinner has maintained a hands-off approach toward those individuals, proves his bias.

[AuntPatsy]

3. Considering what I've read from many others I have to admit I find the whole deal suspect..

I really despise the heated ugly back and forth rhetoric, more worthy of what I found to be a far too common means of communication among conservatives, but I have read worse here on DU...

Wish primary season was behind us....



Yet for such a large site filled with so many different personalities we still struggle to ensure a fair and caring environment for those that desire fairness in the real world....other sites either give up or close up shop...

[nashville_brook]

4. he never said he'd vote for an R or a 3rd party. abstaining is not voting against.

plus, you're right. primary season.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

5. Nice catch.

Thanks for posting. Hopefully, they reconsider.

[femmedem]

8. K&R n/t

[Hiraeth]

9. I wondered about that wording. Does seem to mean only in time of GE and not the Primary.

I also don't think it will change Skinner's mind but, you do have a point. Good catch.

Thanks for bolding and underlining the pertinent wording.

[Proserpina]

10. "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"--Animal Farm

It's a nice wish, but if wishes were horses...

[baran]

12. Skinner, please reconsider . . .

As another post has said, tombstoning Manny is DU's loss, not Manny's. I don't think he deserved to be banned.

[Samantha]

13. I also hope Manny's tombstoning will be reconsidered

I was familiar with those terms precisely as you emphasized. I have been here since 2001, and I have gone over that several times. So when I read he had been tombstoned, I was shocked. I really will miss his threads.

Thank you for posting this. You are a really decent person for doing so.

There is a lot more I would like to say, but I have been overdosing on posting here the last two days and I need a break. I am going to watch the debates which are coming on soon. But if you learn anything else about this, could you possibly email me and let me know. I am wondering if Manny just had so many hides on other threads, and when this last one was hidden, if he hit the limit. I don't even know if there is a limit that when one hits that number, they are automatically tombstoned? Do you know?

Talk to you again soon, I hope,

Sam

[Enthusiast]

14. Reinstate Manny!

[840high]

16. ....x10+

[WillyT]

18. + 1,000,000,000 - What You Said !!!

[Helen Borg]

19. Long live Manny!

[Old Codger]

20. Well

They own the site and I see that some if not all are hill fans so no real surprise really..

Gonna get a lot emptier though...

[davidpdx]

21. I am frankly disappointing and shocked at the rate DU is being cleansed

The Clinton supporters went to Skinner early on to make sure the rules went their way on saying anything about voting in the GE and he bought into the ploy. After he agreed to that it was pretty much clear that anyone other than Clinton supporters were going to be treated like 2nd class DUers. The Hillarities run and whine to Skinner on a regular basis about any posts they don't like and he plays god by purging them.

On a personal note, I have been thinking about whether I will stay on DU during the GE or not and instead take a break. If this fixed primary goes as the DNC plans, I may take off several months. I'm glad there is another site to hangout on because that's where I'm headed.

A piece of good news, even though it maybe very short term, one of the loudmouths on the other side got a hide and will be on vacation for about a week.

[Bernblu]

24. I'll probably be gone

It's going to be a pretty boring place if the only pieces are about how wonderful Clinton is and how bad the Republicans are. It'll get old after a few days and I'll have better things to do.

[blackspade]

22. The purge continues.

I may have to reconsider my $ contribution to DU.

[davidpdx]

25. I'm not renewing my star next year and will likely leave

at the end of Jan until the GE is over. If this keeps up it will be Deadunderground.com

I plan on purposefully locking myself out. I refused to be bullied by people (though I am thinking of another word) who demand loyalty oaths.

[PFunk1]

26. Actually it looks like the Hillary folks are now blocking folks from their groups

As I just found out this morning. State anything bad about their candidate and you may find yourself in the same boat.

[Bernblu]

23. I agree but the site owners seem to be in the bag for Clinton.

[Betty Karlson]

27. Indeed, but the elite bias is strong...

[Skinner]

28. What's that first sentence in your excerpt?

It's not highlighted, so it's kind of hard to read. It has the word "never" in there. Could someone please read that sentence back to me?

Thanks in advance.

[TeeYiYi]

29. Which Republican...

...or third party candidate did he advocate for? Bernie Sanders is a Democrat and we're in the middle of an extremely contentious primary season. Both sides are using every play in the book to get their candidate elected.

DUers have been threatening to write in their candidate, in case of a loss in the primaries, for as long as I've been here. After the primaries, everyone always seems to come around with a promise to 'hold their nose' and vote for the Democrat. If not, then they make a choice to leave or be PPRd.

It's still silly season at DU. I've seen threats by numerous DUers not to vote for the other candidate in the GE. All of those people are still here. Only one, that I can see, has been PPRd for making that claim.

According to DU's TOS, "election season" hasn't started yet, and won't until both parties have chosen a candidate. I think the PPRing of Manny was a rush to judgement.

But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear.

TYY

[Skinner]

30. Any liberal candidate that is not the Democratic nominee is a third-party spoiler.

And the Terms of Service make clear that advocating on behalf of third-party spoilers is never permitted.

With regard to the numerous DUers who has expressed a personal intent not to vote for the eventual nominee, see here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12599266

[TeeYiYi]

32. As of right now...

...the Democratic nominee has not yet been elected. Until that time, Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton and Martin O'Malley are all Democratic candidates.

TYY

[Skinner]

33. Except we're not talking about now. We're talking about the general election in November 2016.

At that point there will be only one Democratic candidate.

[TeeYiYi]

34. That's correct...

...but unless you've got a crystal ball, we don't know yet who that Democratic candidate is going to be.

Once that's been determined, then the election season will have officially begun and 'no advocating for third party spoilers' will be the order of the day and a bannable offense.

TYY

[Skinner]

35. A crystal ball is not necessary.

Advocating that people vote for a particular primary candidate in the general election even if that candidate loses the primary is advocating in favor of a spoiler candidate.

[TeeYiYi]

37. Since that hasn't happened yet...

... we're dealing with hypotheticals. I'm planning on winning the lottery someday but so far, that hasn't happened. You're advocating punishment for a thought crime.

Right this minute, Bernie Sanders is a Democratic candidate. If he should win in the primary election, he'll be the Democratic nominee. Bernie Sanders is not a Republican or a third-party spoiler and until we have a Democratic nominee, that won't change.

This primary season on DU has been as bitter as I've ever seen it. Goal posts are being moved all over the field and threats to withhold a vote are now and have always been standard fare in the run up to the primary election.

Until we have a Democratic nominee, Bernie is still a Democratic candidate and his advocacy falls within the purview of DemocraticUnderground.

Once we have a nominee, it will be "election season" and everyone will be on notice to cut the bullshit or plan on pizza.

TYY

[BeanMusical]

45. "I'm planning on winning the lottery someday... You're advocating punishment for a thought crime."

You said it way better than I could.

[AlbertCat]

38. A crystal ball is not necessary.

Because you think Hillary has already won.... right?

After all, it's her turn and she deserves it. Right?


BTW.... advocating in the past for a candidate that lost.... is a banning offense....or was before there was anything like a spoiler candidate...in the future... that no one knows..

So advocating for what might be the Dem candidate that you don't like before they become the candidate...


All this time travel SciFi is so confusing....

And makes NO SENSE.

[Bubzer]

43. I'm with you AlbertCat.

This says it all;

In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose.

We are in the primary season.. we can "support whomever" we "choose".

Bernie IS NOT a spoiler candidate because the nominee HAS NOT been determined. There is no ToS violation here.
The ONLY way this PPR is legitimate, is if skinner has some sort of time travel ability.

[BeanMusical]

44. +1000

[Bubzer]

42. I'll also be expecting your fine-tooth-comb to be used on your fellow hillary supporters post-haste.

[BeanMusical]

47. +1 Totally agree.

[mentalslavery]

49. Come on skinner....

manny's really over the top and all, but everyone here knows how to take his posts....and I think that context should matter...he is important for dialogue...even tho I typically disagree with him. Please reconsider...its the season...ya know!!!


Its your call....but the community is watching....so to speak....

[Bubzer]

41. I'm glad to hear you have such strong feelings over this and look forward to your fair application.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=625547
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=727836

[Fawke Em]

48. Then why is Moo-Rah-whatever-his-name-is still here?

He has unequivocally said he will not vote for Bernie Sanders in the general.

[truebrit71]

31. Thankfully you apply that evenly.... oh wait...

...

[TexasBushwhacker]

36. MG did not advocate voting for the GOP or a 3rd party

candidate. Period

[BeanMusical]

46. Kick and R