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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:39 PM

 

Biden's record - video from C-span - Anyone think this is a good thing?


Joe Biden on crime bill June 20, 1991

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4793704/joe-biden-crime-bill
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Reply Biden's record - video from C-span - Anyone think this is a good thing? (Original post)
bloom May 2019 OP
hlthe2b May 2019 #1
thesquanderer May 2019 #8
hlthe2b May 2019 #14
bloom May 2019 #30
hlthe2b May 2019 #35
bloom May 2019 #44
hlthe2b May 2019 #46
thesquanderer May 2019 #48
loyalsister May 2019 #56
bloom May 2019 #63
loyalsister May 2019 #70
tirebiter May 2019 #2
bloom May 2019 #40
ehrnst May 2019 #82
LW1977 May 2019 #3
BeyondGeography May 2019 #4
Hassler May 2019 #10
bloom May 2019 #32
redstateblues May 2019 #79
Kahuna7 May 2019 #5
bloom May 2019 #11
Kahuna7 May 2019 #18
bloom May 2019 #22
Kahuna7 May 2019 #23
Cha May 2019 #6
bloom May 2019 #16
Cha May 2019 #81
DemocratSinceBirth May 2019 #7
qazplm135 May 2019 #9
bloom May 2019 #13
qazplm135 May 2019 #21
DonViejo May 2019 #28
bloom May 2019 #33
DonViejo May 2019 #37
ehrnst May 2019 #83
John Fante May 2019 #12
bloom May 2019 #34
emmaverybo May 2019 #45
mcar May 2019 #15
bloom May 2019 #17
melman May 2019 #20
mcar May 2019 #26
Thekaspervote May 2019 #55
bloom May 2019 #65
Honeycombe8 May 2019 #19
bloom May 2019 #31
George II May 2019 #71
Honeycombe8 May 2019 #84
yardwork May 2019 #24
LibFarmer May 2019 #25
WeekiWater May 2019 #27
thesquanderer May 2019 #57
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thesquanderer May 2019 #62
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thesquanderer May 2019 #72
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thesquanderer May 2019 #76
Honeycombe8 May 2019 #85
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bloom May 2019 #29
Demsrule86 May 2019 #38
thesquanderer May 2019 #59
Demsrule86 May 2019 #74
thesquanderer May 2019 #77
Demsrule86 May 2019 #36
bloom May 2019 #42
BlueTsunami2018 May 2019 #39
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themaguffin May 2019 #43
bloom May 2019 #47
themaguffin May 2019 #50
Voltaire2 May 2019 #49
themaguffin May 2019 #51
Voltaire2 May 2019 #53
themaguffin May 2019 #54
thesquanderer May 2019 #60
stonecutter357 May 2019 #52
bloom May 2019 #61
emmaverybo May 2019 #64
George II May 2019 #69
JudyM May 2019 #75
Pisces May 2019 #78
redstateblues May 2019 #80

Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:42 PM

1. 28 years ago! Enough said. Tell the youngsters who think they'd done differently while in the womb

 

that things change--both situationally and societally. The bad politicos are those who don't change their positions and evolve. Biden is not one of those.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #1)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:58 PM

8. re: "The bad politicos are those who don't change their positions and evolve."

 

Or maybe the best ones are the ones who had the better positions all along, even when those positions were unpopular.

Biden is the consummate political animal, with all the good and bad that goes along with it. Changing with the times is not the worst thing. Of the elder candidates, it's nice that Sanders had pretty much the same convictions 30 years ago, more consistently so than Biden or ex-Republican Warren... but in the end, it doesn't really matter much. They'd all govern based on where they are today, not where they were 30 years ago.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #8)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:08 PM

14. Easy to say-actually disingenuous 28 yr. later. It was a different time with different issues.

 

You are quite wrong re: Sanders. He also voted for that bill!

Best to check the facts before "squandering" any credible argument.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #14)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:09 PM

30. Biden continued to be proud of 'his' crime bill - as recently as 2015

 


This is not an old story - this is Biden's story - whether he continues to talk about it on the campaign trail or not. And actually - it's one that anyone voting in the primary should be aware of - so they can cast a knowledgable vote. You can bet - if Biden were to win the primary - this would be a big issue in the general - by the Republicans. It could be difficult to show much light between Biden and Trump on this issue - at least. And it seems to be Biden's proudest accomplishment.

"Will Black Voters Still Love Biden When They Remember Who He Was?"

Joe Biden once called state-mandated school integration “the most racist concept you can come up with,” and Barack Obama “the first sort of mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean.” He was a staunch opponent of “forced busing” in the 1970s, and leading crusader for mass incarceration throughout the ‘80s and ‘90s. Uncle Joe has described African-American felons as “predators” too sociopathic to rehabilitate — and white supremacist senators as his friends.

...As of 2007, Biden believed that this stance had aged well. In a memoir released that year, the soon-to-be presidential candidate derided busing as “a liberal trainwreck.” Education experts disagree. Since some municipalities did integrate their schools through busing (however temporarily), while others did not, scholars have been able to evaluate the policy’s efficacy. In 2011, researchers at Berkeley found that black students who had spent five years in desegregated schools went on to earn (on average) 25 percent more than those who remained in segregated schools (or, in Biden’s phrasing, schools that honored the “black awareness concept”). Other studies have found that racial segregation impairs learning for black students so severely, it outweighs the positive effects associated with higher household income — while integration enhances educational outcomes more profoundly than increasing a school’s safety. Meanwhile, contrary to so many white parents’ fears, integration was not associated with any negative effect on white students’ educational performance.

...Biden is famous for his lead role in crafting the 1994 crime bill, or, as the senator preferred to call it (as recently as 2015), the “1994 Biden Crime Bill.” Some aspects of that legislation remain popular within the Democratic Party — among them, the Violence Against Women Act, a federal assault-weapons ban, and funds for “community oriented” policing. But in 2019 America — a place where our nation’s violent crime rate is near historic lows, while its incarceration rate hovers around world-historic highs — the bill’s broader legacy is ignominious. The Brennan Center succinctly summarized that legacy on the 20th anniversary of the bill’s passage:

It expanded the death penalty, creating 60 new death penalty offenses under 41 federal capital statutes. It eliminated education funding for incarcerated students, effectively gutting prison education programs. Despite a wealth of research showing education increases post-release employment, reduces recidivism, and improves outcomes for the formerly incarcerated and their families, this change has not been reversed.

And the bill created a wave of change toward harsher state sentencing policy. That change was driven by funding incentives: the bill’s $9.7 billion in federal funding for prison construction went only to states that adopted truth-in-sentencing (TIS) laws, which lead to defendants serving far longer prison terms. Within 5 years, 29 states had TIS laws on the books, 24 more than when the bill was signed. New York State received over $216 million by passing such laws. By 2000 the state had added over 12,000 prison beds and incarcerated 28 percent more people than a decade before.


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-busing-incarceration-racial-justice-democratic-primary-2020-explained.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%20nymag/intelligencer%20%28Daily%20Intelligencer%20-%20New%20York%20Magazine%29&utm_content=Google%20Feedfetcher
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Response to bloom (Reply #30)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:23 PM

35. Utterly ridiculous as you defend Sander's identical vote and Warren was a Republican at the time

 

Had she been in the Senate would have almost certainly voted for it too.

Disingenuous does not begin to cover it. Personally. I like and could easily see me supporting at least a half dozen candidates. The handful I really do not want to support are Gillibrand, Moulton, Ryan and Gabbard.

But, I do believe in covering them fairly. Yes, 28 years is OLD news. As I said, you may think you'd have done differently from your perch in the womb if you are as young as some here, but hindsight is not worthy of argument. This tactic is not going to turn anyone AWAY from Biden and certainly not (on its own) TOWARD your own candidate. I like Warren. This kind of crap from you or other supporters is not helping her, however.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #35)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:58 PM

44. That bill defines Biden

 

It does not define Sanders. It was not his baby - and you can see - that he had issues with it.

"And in 2016, after CNBC asked Biden if he was ashamed of the 1994 law, Biden responded, “Not at all. As a matter of fact, I drafted the bill, if you remember.”"

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/25/18282870/joe-biden-criminal-justice-war-on-drugs-mass-incarceration

____

Other things define Warren. They have more to do with go after big money and fraudsters. I prefer that as a cause - over having as a cause the expansion of the death penalty and mass incarceration.

I really think people ought to own up to Biden and his proud identity with that bill of his.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to bloom (Reply #44)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:01 PM

46. Yeah, keep digging. With supporters like you feebly attacking her opponents, Warren needs...

 

BETTER SUPPORTERS!
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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #14)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:02 PM

48. Sanders did not vote for the bill Biden is discussing in the OP.

 

He couldn't, he wasn't in the Senate then. There was a crime bill in the House that year, but Sanders voted against it. So you should "check the facts before squandering any credible argument."

But in the bigger picture, I am talking about their entire perspectives. Listen to what Biden said in that clip, talking about his own, 1991, wholeheartedly supported bill:

the Biden crime bill {that} is before us calls for the death penalty for 51 offenses...A wag in the newspaper recently wrote something to the effect that Biden has made a death penalty offense for everything but jaywalking...I am a supporter of the death penalty. I am a supporter of the death penalty without the racial justice provision in it. I think it's better with it, but I'm a supporter without it in it as well."


That's what I was talking about. You've never heard something like that from Sanders, not even in 1991. Positions and philosophical statements, not just votes. Votes can involve compromise, you vote for things that include thing you don't agree with to get the things you do. But then listen to them speak about what they agree with and what they don't. That's where Sanders has been far more consistent than Biden over the years.

So while Sanders didn't vote on that 1991 Biden bill, you're probably thinking about the later 1994 crime bill, which both Sanders and Biden voted for. But the two of them still had different perspectives. Again, Biden supported it wholeheartedly... the Senate version was actually called the Biden-Hatch crime bill. Sanders, OTOH, voted for it with major reservations. There were things he liked (he's spoken about the Violence Against Women provisions), but things he spoke against even as he voted for it, including voting for an amendment to take the death penalty out of it. Ignore the obnoxious background music, this video makes the point, comparing how the two of them discussed the 1994 bill as it was happening... one thinking it was a great bill with his name on it, the other speaking against it despite ultimately voting for it as a difficult compromise. Virtually all of what Bernie said, he'd say today. I assume/hope that's not true of Biden.









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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #48)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:05 PM

56. The racial justice provision:

 



The two provisions that effectively killed any chance of compromise were a Senate ban on semiautomatic weapons and a House proposal that would have allowed defendants to challenge their death penalties if they could show, based on statistics, that their sentences were the result of racial bias. House conferees refused to accept gun control, and Senate conferees refused to go along with the so-called racial justice provision.
https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal91-1110541


Wow.
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Response to loyalsister (Reply #56)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:46 PM

63. that link didn't have any info - that I could see n/t

 

I was looking for more about that -> racial justice provision
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Response to bloom (Reply #63)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:36 PM

70. Sorry

 

Not sure why you can't get to it from that page, but the title of the article is:

Anti-Crime Bill Falls Victim to Partisanship - CQ Almanac Online Edition
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:44 PM

2. That was last century

 

A bit of a reach.
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Response to tirebiter (Reply #2)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:47 PM

40. He is still proud of his bill.

 

And in 2016, after CNBC asked Biden if he was ashamed of the 1994 law, Biden responded, “Not at all. As a matter of fact, I drafted the bill, if you remember.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/25/18282870/joe-biden-criminal-justice-war-on-drugs-mass-incarceration
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Response to bloom (Reply #40)

Wed May 15, 2019, 10:30 AM

82. Well, there are candidates who have never expressed regret for their Iraq intervention votes.

 

In 1998 Sanders voted in favor of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which said: “It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.”

Later that same year, Sanders also backed a resolution that stated: “Congress reaffirms that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.”

Sanders also voted for the 2001 Authorization Unilateral Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF), which pretty much allowed Bush to wage war wherever he wanted.

Authorization for Use of Military Force - Authorizes the President to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations, or persons.
States that this Act is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of the War Powers Resolution.


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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:45 PM

3. Reach

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:48 PM

4. 28 years ago Warren was a Republican

 

That’s not a good thing. And I don’t hold that against her in the least.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #4)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:02 PM

10. +1

 

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primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to bloom (Reply #32)

Tue May 14, 2019, 11:18 PM

79. Still she voted for Reagan

 

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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:49 PM

5. Bernie record from C-Span when he voted for the 1994 Crime Bill.

 



"It is my firm belief that clearly there are people in our society who are horribly violent, who are deeply sick and sociopathic, and clearly these people must be put behind bars in order to protect society from them.

But it is also my view that through the neglect of our government and through a grossly irrational set of priorities, we are dooming today tens of millions of young people to a future of bitterness, misery, hopelessness, drugs, crime, and violence. And, Mr. Speaker, all the jails in the world — and we already imprison more people per capita than any other country — and all of the executions … in the world will not make that situation right.

We can either educate or electrocute. We can create meaningful jobs, rebuilding our society, or we can build more jails. Mr. Speaker, let us create a society of hope and compassion, not one of hate and vengeance."

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/26/11116412/bernie-sanders-mass-incarceration



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Response to Kahuna7 (Reply #5)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:02 PM

11. Actually - your post favors Bernie. He appears quite a bit more thoughtful in comparison

 

(that is - the VOX link, info)
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Response to bloom (Reply #11)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:14 PM

18. So much has been made about how the crime bill threw...

 

black men under the bus, but its okay to throw black men under the bus if it helps women. Got it.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Kahuna7 (Reply #18)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:29 PM

22. I didn't say that (throwing black men under) - he just seems to be weighing the pros and cons better

 

Biden is the one - if you watch the clip - who wrote the bill -and is proud of his 51 death penalty provisions. Also - he is very flippant regarding the racial provisions. He supports the bill with them or without them. That is what the clip is about.
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Response to bloom (Reply #22)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:33 PM

23. So. The pot has no business calling the kettle black. nt

 

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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:51 PM

6. Warren was a repub then.. was that a good thing?..

 

as long as you had to bring this "gotcha" up.
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Response to Cha (Reply #6)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:11 PM

16. She was a law professor. Not a Republican politician.

 

Someone else posted elsewhere that we should look at Biden's record. Well - here is some of it.
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Response to bloom (Reply #16)

Wed May 15, 2019, 12:59 AM

81. Still a repub.

 

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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:53 PM

7. "When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir ..."

 

-John Maynard Keynes
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 04:59 PM

9. I mean I just don't think this approach is going to bear fruit

 

It didn't really bear fruit against Clinton in 2016. It weakened her, but ultimately didn't kill her in the primaries.
It doesn't appear to be even weakening Biden.

I'd prefer someone else too, but strikes me the best way to do so is going to be for one of our preferred candidates to break out during the debates and inspire folks to vote for them, not "look how wrong Biden was on this or that issue 30+ years ago!"
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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #9)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:06 PM

13. I like knowing the full story

 

I don't really know the full story on any of them - and Biden is no exception.
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Response to bloom (Reply #13)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:21 PM

21. I don't think you shared that link

 

or asked that question to get the full story on Biden.

How's that work exactly?
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Response to bloom (Reply #13)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:57 PM

28. You don't know the full story on any of them but

 

you're supporting a candidate regardless of that lack of knowledge?
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Response to DonViejo (Reply #28)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:15 PM

33. I support Warren based on what I know

 

If I were to find out that another candidate was better - I would change who I plan to vote for.
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Response to bloom (Reply #33)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:36 PM

37. So, the answer to my question is "yes." Got it. eom

 

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Response to bloom (Reply #13)

Wed May 15, 2019, 10:31 AM

83. You seem to have a particular animus towards Biden, despite "not knowing much"

 

as you put it, about the candidates in general

Why is that?
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:03 PM

12. People forget how violent it was during the heyday of the crack

 

epidemic - the homicide rate was nearly DOUBLE what it is today. Not saying some of those harsh crime bills were right, but it was a different era then.
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Response to John Fante (Reply #12)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:18 PM

34. Yes - you can look at Crime statistics

 

And they did start falling in the early 90's. As the mass incarceration of blacks was steadily increasing.

Have you watched the documentary, "13th". It's streaming on Netflix. It is illuminating. The crackdown on crack can easily be seen as racially unjust.

This article is also illuminating:

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-busing-incarceration-racial-justice-democratic-primary-2020-explained.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%20nymag/intelligencer%20%28Daily%20Intelligencer%20-%20New%20York%20Magazine%29&utm_content=Google%20Feedfetcher
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Response to John Fante (Reply #12)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:58 PM

45. Important comment. The communities most affected were demanding stronger law

 

enforcement response at the time, as the violent behavior of users and dealers threatened the majority of law-abiding citizens and their children.
They wanted relief. They were not for the revolving door that no sooner swept up an offender than he would be released to occupy the same street corner or house next door.
The crack epidemic was a scourge. If you lived next to a crack house, usually a rental with a landlord safely elsewhere, you were imperiled.
Later, the built in racial inequities of the “crack down,” within the justice system, and attendant police abuses in carrying it out became more apparent and so the 1994 has been challenged in its entirety.
At the time, however, there was the sense that law enforcement and the judicial system did not care about largely black neighborhoods, turned a blind eye to the 95 percent preyed upon by the 5 percent. In fact, this had been true.
Unintended, dire consequences can arise out of aggressive policies meant to solve problems.
The 1994 crime act had different parts to it.
I wait to see what Biden says about the bill in its entirety.


















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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:09 PM

15. Another day, another Biden smear on DU

 

Shall we discuss how the candidate we both support was a Republican during that time?
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Response to mcar (Reply #15)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:13 PM

17. Is it a 'smear' to post videos?

 

Someone else said we should look at his record. That's what this is. It's his record.

Someone might like it - for all I know.
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Response to bloom (Reply #17)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:21 PM

20. It's a funny thing

 

when a candidate's 'experience' is supposed to be his big selling point, but to actually talk about the things he's done is a smear.
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Response to bloom (Reply #17)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:51 PM

26. Yes, it is

 

Unless you plan to post info from other candidates actions and activities during that time.
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Response to bloom (Reply #17)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:32 PM

55. Okay... but why weren't DU'ers and others attacking Biden b4 he got in the race..knowing he would

 

Front runneritis...
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Response to Thekaspervote (Reply #55)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:48 PM

65. I didn't pay that much attention to him.

 

I didn't think he would be as popular as he seems to be.

But yeah - front runners should expect more questioning than others.
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:14 PM

19. An old video from 1991? Seriously?

 

I don't support Biden, but come on, now. 1991?
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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #19)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:12 PM

31. as the senator preferred to call it (as recently as 2015), the "1994 Biden Crime Bill."

 


This is not an old story - this is Biden's story - whether he continues to talk about it on the campaign trail or not. And actually - it's one that anyone voting in the primary should be aware of - so they can cast a knowledgable vote. You can bet - if Biden were to win the primary - this would be a big issue in the general - by the Republicans. It could be difficult to show much light between Biden and Trump on this issue - at least. And it seems to be Biden's proudest accomplishment.

"Will Black Voters Still Love Biden When They Remember Who He Was?"

Joe Biden once called state-mandated school integration “the most racist concept you can come up with,” and Barack Obama “the first sort of mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean.” He was a staunch opponent of “forced busing” in the 1970s, and leading crusader for mass incarceration throughout the ‘80s and ‘90s. Uncle Joe has described African-American felons as “predators” too sociopathic to rehabilitate — and white supremacist senators as his friends.

...As of 2007, Biden believed that this stance had aged well. In a memoir released that year, the soon-to-be presidential candidate derided busing as “a liberal trainwreck.” Education experts disagree. Since some municipalities did integrate their schools through busing (however temporarily), while others did not, scholars have been able to evaluate the policy’s efficacy. In 2011, researchers at Berkeley found that black students who had spent five years in desegregated schools went on to earn (on average) 25 percent more than those who remained in segregated schools (or, in Biden’s phrasing, schools that honored the “black awareness concept”). Other studies have found that racial segregation impairs learning for black students so severely, it outweighs the positive effects associated with higher household income — while integration enhances educational outcomes more profoundly than increasing a school’s safety. Meanwhile, contrary to so many white parents’ fears, integration was not associated with any negative effect on white students’ educational performance.

...Biden is famous for his lead role in crafting the 1994 crime bill, or, as the senator preferred to call it (as recently as 2015), the “1994 Biden Crime Bill.” Some aspects of that legislation remain popular within the Democratic Party — among them, the Violence Against Women Act, a federal assault-weapons ban, and funds for “community oriented” policing. But in 2019 America — a place where our nation’s violent crime rate is near historic lows, while its incarceration rate hovers around world-historic highs — the bill’s broader legacy is ignominious. The Brennan Center succinctly summarized that legacy on the 20th anniversary of the bill’s passage:

It expanded the death penalty, creating 60 new death penalty offenses under 41 federal capital statutes. It eliminated education funding for incarcerated students, effectively gutting prison education programs. Despite a wealth of research showing education increases post-release employment, reduces recidivism, and improves outcomes for the formerly incarcerated and their families, this change has not been reversed.

And the bill created a wave of change toward harsher state sentencing policy. That change was driven by funding incentives: the bill’s $9.7 billion in federal funding for prison construction went only to states that adopted truth-in-sentencing (TIS) laws, which lead to defendants serving far longer prison terms. Within 5 years, 29 states had TIS laws on the books, 24 more than when the bill was signed. New York State received over $216 million by passing such laws. By 2000 the state had added over 12,000 prison beds and incarcerated 28 percent more people than a decade before.


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-busing-incarceration-racial-justice-democratic-primary-2020-explained.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%20nymag/intelligencer%20%28Daily%20Intelligencer%20-%20New%20York%20Magazine%29&utm_content=Google%20Feedfetcher
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Response to bloom (Reply #31)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:37 PM

71. 2015 is four years ago. Anyone talk to him recently about it? Probably not.

 

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Joe Biden

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Response to bloom (Reply #31)

Wed May 15, 2019, 02:05 PM

84. Your post is too long to read, for me...but...

 

I think that moderate Democratics are probably in favor of stricter crime punishment than the far left wing, though not as strict as centrist (between middle-Repub and middle-Democratic people).

I'm a center left Democratic. A fairly standard liberal, I think. Definitely not a centrist. I am a liberal. But definitely not far left. I am in favor of strict crime punishment laws, and not against the death penalty, when used sparingly and when there is a certain kind of evidence. The Democratic Party Platform, I think, is against the death penalty now, but I would bet that it was not in 1991.

All the candidates are Democrats. They all are generally on the same side of the issues.

I don't support Biden. But this election is not about issues. It's about ousting Trump. So posts about particular issues won't have that much effect, short of exposing a felony or something like that.

Hearings and videos of 20 or 30 years ago are silly things to use against a candidate, IMO, because it reminds people how long he's been grappling with the tough issues and on the national scene.

When Cortez and Buttegieg were babies or in elementary school, Biden was grappling with tough issues. To put it in perspective.
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:33 PM

24. Lol

 

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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:46 PM

25. The crime bill as a smear has been dead for a long long time

 

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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 05:56 PM

27. No, I don't think Sanders or Biden voting for the crime bill was a good thing.

 

Are those our only two candidates who supported it?
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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #27)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:28 PM

57. I don't think any those candidates were in congress at the time.

 

I would differentiate that Biden supported it enthusiastically (and his name was on the bill); Sanders railed against it at the time and voted for it only reluctantly, as a flawed compromise. I find that more illustrative than the actual vote. Regardless, it would not prevent me from voting for either of them against Trump, of course.
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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #57)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:30 PM

58. That's just Sanders. It's how he does it.

 

He railed against the worker program as he voted against a pathway to citizenship. Biden voted for a pathway to citizenship.

Votes don’t come with nuance. You vote for it or against it.
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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #58)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:45 PM

62. re: "Votes don't come with nuance. You vote for it or against it."

 

You are often forced to vote for things you don't like to get things you do like. But to get an idea about what someone things is good or bad, and what they would change if they had the power to change it, you can listen to their contemporaneous speeches.

Biden loved every bit of the bill, it was his baby. Sanders wanted to vote for some parts of it (like the Violence Against Women provisions), but railed against other parts, and voted for an amendment to try to get the death penalty out of it (tha did not pass). You can only do what you can do, and make your feelings known. Nothing is perfect. But listening to the two of them talk about the bill at the time tells you something about how they were different at the time.
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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #62)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:52 PM

66. How you describe that makes Sanders vote against a pathway to citizenship...

 

Look even more horrific.
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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #66)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:58 PM

67. As I said, bills are compromises. The bill was more than just that.

 

And the issues aren't always simple. Organized labor was against the bill, and Sanders was a big ally of organized labor.
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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #67)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:20 PM

68. He voted against it because of workers programs that were later expanded.

 

At the expense of the oppressed.

Very similar to his more recent Russian sanction vote that he claimed he did to hold the Iran Nuclear Deal together. How did that work out. You make a good point. Seems there is a lot of nuance.
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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #68)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:38 PM

72. re: "At the expense of the oppressed"

 

Are you seriously going to argue that Sanders is an enemy of the economically oppressed??

Along those lines, you might want to look at Biden and the "2005 Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act" which was opposed by Sanders, Warren, and Obama. But no candidate is perfect...
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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #72)

Tue May 14, 2019, 10:01 PM

73. That is exactly what I argued.

 

He voted against a pathway to citizenship because of a workers program that was later expanded. It was at the expense of well over ten million people living in the shadows.

I don’t need to look up the Bankruptcy Act. I’m well aware of it. Really shitty vote by Biden that harmed a lot of people. There is the difference. You won’t see me sticking up for Biden in that vote. Yet people will bend over backwards to excuse Sanders for fighting to keep over ten million people in the shadows. I get it. They are just the collateral damage of nuance.

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Joe Biden

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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #73)

Tue May 14, 2019, 10:38 PM

76. There are plenty of problematic votes to go around.

 

The distinction I've been trying to make in this thread, relevant to the crime bills, is between what one merely votes for (which is often a compromise of conflicting interests) and what one champions. It is one of the things that keep Biden off my first tier.
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Response to WeekiWater (Reply #27)

Wed May 15, 2019, 02:10 PM

85. Most of the others were babies or in elementary school at the time.

 

Warren was not in politics.
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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #85)

Wed May 15, 2019, 02:59 PM

86. That's what I was thinking. NT

 

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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:08 PM

29. Biden continued to be proud of 'his' crime bill - as recently as 2015

 

[I must have missed those discussions where this horse was beaten. Sorry about that. Not everybody lives here.]

This is not an old story - this is Biden's story - whether he continues to talk about it on the campaign trail or not. And actually - it's one that anyone voting in the primary should be aware of - so they can cast a knowledgable vote. You can bet - if Biden were to win the primary - this would be a big issue in the general - but the Republicans. It could be difficult to show much light between Biden and Trump on this issue - at least. And it seems to be Biden's proudest accomplishment.

"Will Black Voters Still Love Biden When They Remember Who He Was?"

Joe Biden once called state-mandated school integration “the most racist concept you can come up with,” and Barack Obama “the first sort of mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean.” He was a staunch opponent of “forced busing” in the 1970s, and leading crusader for mass incarceration throughout the ‘80s and ‘90s. Uncle Joe has described African-American felons as “predators” too sociopathic to rehabilitate — and white supremacist senators as his friends.

...As of 2007, Biden believed that this stance had aged well. In a memoir released that year, the soon-to-be presidential candidate derided busing as “a liberal trainwreck.” Education experts disagree. Since some municipalities did integrate their schools through busing (however temporarily), while others did not, scholars have been able to evaluate the policy’s efficacy. In 2011, researchers at Berkeley found that black students who had spent five years in desegregated schools went on to earn (on average) 25 percent more than those who remained in segregated schools (or, in Biden’s phrasing, schools that honored the “black awareness concept”). Other studies have found that racial segregation impairs learning for black students so severely, it outweighs the positive effects associated with higher household income — while integration enhances educational outcomes more profoundly than increasing a school’s safety. Meanwhile, contrary to so many white parents’ fears, integration was not associated with any negative effect on white students’ educational performance.

...Biden is famous for his lead role in crafting the 1994 crime bill, or, as the senator preferred to call it (as recently as 2015), the “1994 Biden Crime Bill.” Some aspects of that legislation remain popular within the Democratic Party — among them, the Violence Against Women Act, a federal assault-weapons ban, and funds for “community oriented” policing. But in 2019 America — a place where our nation’s violent crime rate is near historic lows, while its incarceration rate hovers around world-historic highs — the bill’s broader legacy is ignominious. The Brennan Center succinctly summarized that legacy on the 20th anniversary of the bill’s passage:

It expanded the death penalty, creating 60 new death penalty offenses under 41 federal capital statutes. It eliminated education funding for incarcerated students, effectively gutting prison education programs. Despite a wealth of research showing education increases post-release employment, reduces recidivism, and improves outcomes for the formerly incarcerated and their families, this change has not been reversed.

And the bill created a wave of change toward harsher state sentencing policy. That change was driven by funding incentives: the bill’s $9.7 billion in federal funding for prison construction went only to states that adopted truth-in-sentencing (TIS) laws, which lead to defendants serving far longer prison terms. Within 5 years, 29 states had TIS laws on the books, 24 more than when the bill was signed. New York State received over $216 million by passing such laws. By 2000 the state had added over 12,000 prison beds and incarcerated 28 percent more people than a decade before.


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-busing-incarceration-racial-justice-democratic-primary-2020-explained.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A%20nymag/intelligencer%20%28Daily%20Intelligencer%20-%20New%20York%20Magazine%29&utm_content=Google%20Feedfetcher
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Response to bloom (Reply #29)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:38 PM

38. Sanders signed this as well. And this sort of thing makes me vow to never vote for your candidate in

 

a primary... a general sure. Even if this sort of thing worked ( it won't). I would not vote for Warren based on this sort of attack on a Democrat.
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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #38)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:32 PM

59. re: "this sort of thing makes me vow to never vote for your candidate in a primary"

 

Your opinion about someone's supporters is not a sensible thing to base your vote on. If you look, I'd bet you will be able to find people whose posts you don't like supporting every candidate, including your candidate of choice.
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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #59)

Tue May 14, 2019, 10:14 PM

74. Oh but it is...supporters do influence what you think about their candidates.

 

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #74)

Tue May 14, 2019, 10:44 PM

77. I hope this didn't turn you off to Obama...

 

Farrakhan sings Obama's praises
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:35 PM

36. Yes...Years ago. And Warren Wiil not win the primary and would not beat Trump.

 

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #36)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:50 PM

42. I will for the person in the primary who I think is best

 

While Biden people annoy me - that is not why I wouldn't vote for him.
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:45 PM

39. Zzzzzzzzzzzz........

 

Come on. Dredging up things from decades ago is pretty weak sauce. Where is he today? Now matters, not things from the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s.
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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #39)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:49 PM

41. He is still proud of his bill

 

And in 2016, after CNBC asked Biden if he was ashamed of the 1994 law, Biden responded, “Not at all. As a matter of fact, I drafted the bill, if you remember.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/25/18282870/joe-biden-criminal-justice-war-on-drugs-mass-incarceration
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 06:53 PM

43. I didn't watch the clip but i'm fucking tired of bs. CONTEXT matters.

 

Does everyone fucking forget the context of the time? Or for those of you not born yet, did you try to learn?

There was an epidemic and communities were seeking help.

Jesus fucking Christ.

This is why we can't have nice things.
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Response to themaguffin (Reply #43)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:02 PM

47. I see mass incarceration / private prisons to be an abomination

 

Unfortunately - Biden is responsible for a lot of that - and in fact, proud of it.

Yes - you can say - in that time, the early 90's politicians were riding the backlash against the civil rights movement - along with the Republicans. It's not something to be proud of. He put so much into it - that I think he is incapable of recognizing that.

Watch the documentary "13th". Maybe you'll get it.
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Response to bloom (Reply #47)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:17 PM

50. I GET it and I have seen the documentary. You didn't read my comment though

 

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Response to themaguffin (Reply #43)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:10 PM

49. The context was somehow mass incarceration

 

was just dandy in the 90s?

Please explain.
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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #49)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:17 PM

51. Jesus, you didn't even read what i wrote.

 

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Response to themaguffin (Reply #51)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:25 PM

53. Not I did.

 

You seem to believe that the crack panic justified the mass incarceration.
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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #53)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:32 PM

54. Nope. Next.

 

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Response to themaguffin (Reply #43)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:35 PM

60. Even in those years, there were LOTS of people against the death penalty.

 

And while we agree that context matters, you didn't watch the clip, which is the context for this conversation! Since you don't want to watch it, this is what he says:

the Biden crime bill {that} is before us calls for the death penalty for 51 offenses...A wag in the newspaper recently wrote something to the effect that Biden has made a death penalty offense for everything but jaywalking...I am a supporter of the death penalty. I am a supporter of the death penalty without the racial justice provision in it. I think it's better with it, but I'm a supporter without it in it as well."



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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 07:23 PM

52. you seem very concerned !

 

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Response to stonecutter357 (Reply #52)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:43 PM

61. I suppose...

 

That one of those darn Russian bots (or some secret analytic thing) could have known that this issue would ignite my fire - so it made this video show up on my Twitter feed.

But - if there were such things happening - it would be better to flush these issues out now rather than later.

I think we are better getting things out in the open now. I know many disagree.

If there are people who think that Biden tough on crime thing is a wonderful thing - then they should be ready to defend it, IMO.
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 08:47 PM

64. Actually some of the crime bill was very good...

 

The gun legislation parts of it, for instance, the part addressing violence against women, hate crimes, civil rights crimes, sex offenders...
What didn’t work, clearly, three strikes, though at the time, seeing people commit heinous crimes only to serve relatively short sentences, come out to do more of the same, made that element of the bill appealing even to some liberal Dems.
In practice, however, it became unfair, and did not stop the worst criminality as there was no provision to decide between violent and non-violent offenses.
The death penalty part is also controversial, anathema to those strongly against the D.P.


I think it is worthwhile to look at the whole bill, including its provision for crime prevention, before speaking about it as nothing but draconian, racist legislation. Yes, we can say the results—mass incarceration—were terribly undesirable And then there’s considering the possibility, though jury not in, of some good outcomes.

[link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_Crime_Control_and_Law_Enforcement_Act|



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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 09:32 PM

69. What's your point?

 

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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 10:27 PM

75. It's interesting, isn't it, that so many comments about "that was then" as if it's not a valid

 

reflection of his thinking on anything.
Yet, dare I say, Bernie (and Elizabeth, since she turned Dem) has as many years under his belt but has been pretty consistent all that time in his take on the issues.
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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 11:18 PM

78. Weak

 

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Response to bloom (Original post)

Tue May 14, 2019, 11:21 PM

80. Keep trying. Maybe make another stab at the hugging scandal

 

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