Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumSanders to give speech defending 'democratic socialism'
(snip)
The speech on Wednesday at George Washington University will address how democratic socialism is the only way to defeat oligarchy and authoritarianism, according to a press release from his campaign.
Sanders will make the case that a strong grassroots campaign based on these progressive values is the only way to confront oligarchy and authoritarianism and defeat Donald Trump, the release states.
The speech comes amid an intensifying debate within the Democratic Party about how to best take on Trump in 2020, with moderate candidates pushing back on a slate of progressive policies such as Medicare for all and the Green New Deal.
(snip)
"Democratic socialism to me is about creating a government and an economy and a society that works for all, rather than just the top 1 percent," Sanders said at a town hall in April. "It means ending the absurd inequalities that exist today."
(snip)
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/447574-sanders-to-give-speech-defending-democratic-socialism
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,759 posts)even with the adjective "democratic" in front of it still reads as "socialism" to the majority of voters and it's a non-starter.
You'd think he'd have learned that by now and talk instead of being a social democrat like in the northern European countrieshighly regulated and taxed but robust CAPITALISM which provides a strong safety net for its peopleunversal healthcare, free college, less income disparity, etc.
He's using the same script as before which didn't work four years ago. He is, to his credit, not bashing the "Democratic Party establishment" as he did last cycle, but it's early yet.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
dalton99a
(81,426 posts)There will be a test after the lecture
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)It's just not.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)Focus on the socialism, Bernie. People will just eat that up, no doubt.
I see lower poll results for you, Senator Sanders, as I peer into my crystal ball.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)I can't think of a better way to proceed. It's a good way for Elizabeth Warren to gain and reach that 15% level. She and Senator Sanders appear to be competing for the same supporters.
Everyone running has to be looking at that 15% mark, because unless they reach it they get no delegates and will have no impact at the convention. Right now, only Biden and Sanders are over that mark, and Biden's +12 or more, depending on which poll you're looking at.
Sanders is grasping at straws right now, trying to stay afloat. I advise caution for him, or he may slip under Warren permanently in this campaign. She is doing better all the time, and may just attract enough of that group of voters to push Sanders under.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Doitnow
(1,103 posts)is sounding like him NOW? Don't get me wrong. I really like Warren, too, but Bernie is still the talk of a whole lot of the new younger candidates. They are all talking about the same things that Bernie set in motion. Some younger people have the same affliction as rump---just take a look at most of the people in his cabinet and Senate who go right along with him.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
JudyM
(29,225 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,759 posts)Warren to run for the 2016 nomination as she was the Dem most prominently championing progressive ideas. She declining and Sanders, the second choice, took up the mantle.
She decided to run in this presidential cycle and is again becoming the first choice for many progressive voters.
She's no johnny-come-lately in this regard. And she's a Democrat not an independent who becomes a Dem to run for president.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
uawchild
(2,208 posts)You make excellent points.
It's clear that Sanders isn't going to get the 2020 nomination.
I admire Sanders for how strongly he has worked on the issues, but my concern at this point in time is reducing the apparent animosity between Sanders' supporters and his detractors.
I don't think we can afford, as a party, to needlessly alienate Sanders's supporters.
I like your tone on this compared to other posts. Basically, if Sanders want to discuss democratic socialism, let him.
There is no need to mock the man.
He's only impacting his own campaign.
Cheers!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)My interest is in making sure that people understand how this all works, so they can make appropriate voting decisions.
I think Senator Sanders is doing something that will hurt his chances. But, he's the candidate, so what he does is up to him. How well he does, though, is up to the voters.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)On all of it.
I don't vote until June so have pretty much zero say in the eventual nominee - my opinion doesn't count. I don't think Sanders will be on the ballot at that point, but I give him credit for standing on his beliefs.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Uncle Joe
(58,338 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
comradebillyboy
(10,138 posts)I really don't think Americans are clamoring for socialism. Actual socialist states haven't remained democratic for long. Too much compulsion involved in nationalizing private assets.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
murielm99
(30,730 posts)you are going to lose. People will walk away from hair-splitting explanations.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)with a socialist government and economy and society ?
IMHO, the average Democrat and American does not want to walk down that path.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Nanjeanne
(4,928 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)They have an equal chance of being elected.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)It is just a more equitable sharing of the pie.....FDRs New Deal was pretty popular, Eisenhower built the Interstate Highway System using top tax rates well over 70%. Two pretty popular examples of Democratic Socialism.
Maybe people prefer Orange Baby giving huge tax breaks to billionaires who dont need it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)What you are describing is social democracy.
Democratic socialism is using the levers of democracy to seize the means of production.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
uawchild
(2,208 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2019, 06:07 PM - Edit history (1)
The terms democratic socialism and social democracy have considerable and significant overlaps on practical policy positions, although they are often distinguished from each other. Policies commonly supported by democratic socialists and social democrats include some degree of regulation over the economy, social insurance schemes, public pension programs and a gradual expansion of public ownership over major industries.[22] Partly because of this overlap, some political commentators use the terms interchangeably.[23][24] The difference between the two is that social democrats support social democratic positions as practical reforms within and to capitalism and as an end in itself whereas democratic socialists ultimately want to go beyond social democratic reform and capitalism and advocate systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism
I am more the social democracy type of guy myself, but I prefer not exaggerate the actual position of democratic socialists. lol
Your mileage might vary.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
crazytown
(7,277 posts)that is the heart of socialism. not me, us
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2019, 09:19 PM - Edit history (1)
If it sounds negative thats because its become negative to modern ears.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)Why not just talk about what your proposed policies are versus trying to redefine a label?
Again it tells me he doesn't really expect to win, but is trying to move the overton window.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
anytime he is asked about it he is unable to answer
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)with book sales.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,338 posts)is not "redefining," he is defining his views in regards to democratic socialism, in the final analysis that's all that matters.
Bernie is most definitely still speaking of policies and issues.
Bernie wants more than a win, he wants a national transformation.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Do you really think folks are going to say OHHHH THAT"s what democratic socialism is, well, now I'm totally fine with socialism!
Spoiler alert...they ain't.
And yes, he wants a "revolution" but that's not happening.
Nothing is getting "transformed." He's not leading a revolution.
He'd be better off with subtlety and focusing on getting elected THEN trying to move the country via legislation and the bully pulpit as opposed to trying to Pied Piper the country his way in an election where he's tied for second in Iowa with two other people.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
being the answer to your question by a 71.48% margin but it would pertain to Bernie's definition of what democratic socialism means to him.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
the fact that you apparently think that secretly 72 percent of the country are really democratic socialists is...humorous.
And no one cares what it means to HIM, it's about what it means to voters.
And they will stop after they hear the word socialism.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
never said that, I said "yes being the answer to your question by a 71.48% margin but it would pertain to Bernie's definition of what democratic socialism means to him."
Most everyone cares what the definition means to the candidate, the meaning to the candidate is paramount to the ultimate meaning to the people or it should be.
Now many in the corporate media conglomerates don't care, this is true, they would rather maintain the power of frame.
The challenge to Bernie will be to reach above and beyond the corporate gatekeepers to get his message and point of view across to the people despite constant barrages of one sided propaganda stock full of straw men.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)there are no corporate gatekeepers somehow blocking Bernie's message.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
six corporate media conglomerates have no inherent, institutional financial/power conflicts of interest, in regards to being against many if not most of Bernie's message and policy proposals, is that your belief?
https://www.morriscreative.com/6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america/
I'm not suggesting there aren't many brave, conscientious journalists in the profession.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)with blocking his message. He has rallies, he gets interviewed, he has debates, he has a plethora of ways of getting his message out just like all the other candidates.
If he fails, it's because he failed or enough people didn't want what he was selling, not because corporations stopped him.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
never said "blocking" that was your word, I said "the power to frame" as in framing the terms and putting out "constant barrages of one sided propaganda stock full of straw men."
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
it's always someone or something else.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
but seriously taking on the powers that be on behalf of the people certainly increases those chances.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)If he has to go on the defense and explain, he might as well just go home.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
highplainsdem
(48,958 posts)crusade where he's the only candidate on the right -- socialist -- side of history.
I don't think this will help his campaign.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
comradebillyboy
(10,138 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SKKY
(11,802 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)If you have to go to this great of length to defend your ideology, it means you're losing the battle. It doesn't matter how he frames it - the perception is already out there. Sanders is fighting an uphill battle trying to convince a great deal of Americans that he's the good kind of socialist and not the socialists whose countries are in complete chaos right now.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Easier sell.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Politicub
(12,165 posts)So far, the definition has been kind of squishy.
Its great and all to say it is creating a government that works for all and such. But the devil is in the details.
Im also interested in seeing how he addresses democratic socialism as an ideology.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)It is easy to talk free college, income inequality, but the method for getting there matters.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BeyondGeography
(39,367 posts)Progressive capitalism is the term youre looking for, if you want to have a shot at running this here American thing.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,338 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brooklynite
(94,483 posts)The response today (according to Bernie) is "no, it's DEMOCRATIC socialism..."
Do you see a difference?
(here's another difference: FDR and LBJ won national elections)
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,338 posts)Social security and Medicare are popular and much needed socialistic policies, however both could be improved and strengthened.
Should Bernie or any other progressive candidate for that matter allow the Republicans to argue that popular policies are socialism and thus inherently evil without defining precisely what said candidate actually views their own ideological personal perspective as, does nothing but cede the battle field and allows him/her to be defined by their opponents.
This allowing of the Republicans and their corporate media conglomerate allies to dictate the narrative with no strong counter argument makes even incremental improvement to popular social programs exceedingly difficult.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brooklynite
(94,483 posts)...and I'm not seeing a path for Sanders to convince a lot of ordinary voters.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,338 posts)whether Bernie's message withstands the powerful forces arrayed against it.
Bernie nor I ever had any illusions this would be easy.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brooklynite
(94,483 posts)Stop saying socialism.
Promote and defend the social democratic policies. unless you're an ideologue there's no value in insisting that they MUST be labeled as socialism.
Western European democracies provide all of these social services in conjunction with a robust capitalist economy. None of them insist that they be called socialist.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
nolabear
(41,959 posts)Why hed play into the hands of the perception theyve manipulated for years is beyond me. He sounds as though he thinks if you just explain your POV people whove been taught youre the devil will say OOOHHHHH! Never mind then.
I can get him supporting principles he believes in but using terms theyve polluted isnt wise.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)He has called himself a socialist his entire life. And he knows perfectly well the meaning of the word.
Democratic Socialist support socialism gained thru democratic means.
I hope in the first debate someone ask him flat out, do you support the eventual, democratic taking of ownership of large industries by the public(government). As far as I know he has never been asked that question.
His answer will resolve all doubt. But unless he answers a solid immediate no, if he tries to nuance the question or actually says yes, his campaign is over.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden