Please, someone tell me what an Independent voter is.

[guillaumeb]

I read the term constantly.

The US corporate media constantly says that Democrats must move to the center right to attract these so-called Independent voters. Given how far the GOP has pushed the debate to the right, does that mean that these Independents are actually conservatives?

And if anyone claims to be an Independent, but votes generally for the GOP, is that Independent in favor of white supremacy, catering to the very rich, anti-worker, and anti-choice? If so, that self described Independent is actually a conservative.

When one Party is the Party of the 1%, and the other Party is the Party of inclusion, and equal rights, any Independents who vote for the GOP candidate are lying, confused, or badly misinformed about the issues and where the two Parties stand on those issues.

[JI7]

1. most are partisans who want to deny what they actually are and rest are

which way the wind blows types.

[bluewater]

5. "which way the wind blows types"

So true.

There is a subset of voters who just want to vote for the winner.

[guillaumeb]

6. I agree.

Anyone who voted for Trump knew exactly what and who they were voting for.

[msongs]

2. possibly a person who is not registered with a political party? nt

[guillaumeb]

3. And has no positions?

And no idea what the two major Parties actually stand for?

In that case, that Independent should be described as a low information impulse voter.

[Indygram]

36. In my case I end up turned off by the more radical factions of each party

So I just don't feel comfortable joining either party. I'm a moderate.

[Turin_C3PO]

4. Someone who voted for Obama twice

then turned around and voted Trump. About 8% of the electorate, I think I read. I don’t know what they were thinking or what their ideology is. We need to win some of them back.

[guillaumeb]

7. If they do not know what they were thinking,

perhaps they should have not voted at all.

[Turin_C3PO]

11. I agree.

Those are the types of people who vote based on feelings and not positions. It would be better if they stayed home.

[Mr.Bill]

19. About 90% of Trump voters I know, when asked why they voted for him

say one of two things:

He's going to shake things up.

He tells it like it is.

Deep thinkers, all of them.

[redstateblues]

56. I have a family member who voted for Trump after the unfortunate deplorable slam.

She is kind of non partisan but was turned off by our candidate. She admits making a mistake and won’t repeat it.

[demosincebirth]

8. I think they have a big wide expanse, Most don't really know what they believe in

[guillaumeb]

10. Which makes them either low information voters, or uninformed voters.

And since both descriptions paint them negatively, they lie to themselves and call themselves Independent.

[Honeycombe8]

9. "Independent" does NOT refer to ideology. It refers to "party affiliation" mainly.

An Independent does not have a party affiliation.

An Independent can be far left, plain liberal or moderate, centrist, moderate right, or rightwingnut.

That's all it means. Usually, it's because a person doesn't feel he fits neatly into the two major parties. So they tend to be swing voters sometimes, more than those who are party-affiliated.

I've heard them described as "Independent, Leans Left" or "Independent, Leans Right" by pollsters who try to fit them into a category.

That's my understanding.

[guillaumeb]

12. A nice description.

My view is that some of them are looking for that perfect candidate, but that also puts these voters in the uninformed category.

[Honeycombe8]

15. Independents are actually very informed.

That's how they know they don't fit neatly into a party's ideology. They are more aware of the parties, and of their own beliefs. They tend to be more educated than the regular populace.

Most people, when you think about, just automatically register for the party their parents were, or their friends are. They don't give it much thought.

[guillaumeb]

16. But assuming that they are informed on the issues,

on every issue of importance, the GOP takes the incorrect side.

Climate change, freedom to make healthcare choices, income stagnation, tax policy, and the role of Government are some of the areas where the 2 Parties differ greatly. And in every case, the GOP position is hostile to the needs and interests of the bottom 90%.

[Honeycombe8]

25. Okay....not sure what that has to do with Independents. nt

[Mr.Bill]

21. Before we had open primaries,

I registered republican a few times so I could vote for their weakest candidate.

[Honeycombe8]

26. In some states you don't have to register to a party at all and can vote in either primary.

You just can't vote in both primaries.

Texas is that way.

[Mr.Bill]

30. In my state, California, all candidates

from all parties are on the same ballot. The two who get the highest amount of votes will be on the ballot in the general election, no matter what party they belong to. We had some positions with two Democratic candidates on the ballot.

[Honeycombe8]

34. Wow. That's confusing! nt

[Mr.Bill]

39. What's good about, the more republicans we keep off the ballot,

the more likely rebublicans are to not bother to vote. Of course, if our state turned red it could work against us. Sure simplifies everything for the poll workers and saves a lot on printing ballots, too.

[Honeycombe8]

58. Well, that's true. nt

[democrank]

18. That's my understanding as well, Honeycomb.

I know many Independent voters and most say they just don’t want to be affiliated with a specific party. Why? They’re issues voters, not party voters. Independent voters are around 43% now so I’m dismayed when I see them ripped to shreds here. We need them on our side.

[Honeycombe8]

33. I think they're disillusioned w/the two party system.

They also don't fit neatly into either party. I agree that they're issues voters. They have to be, really, if they don't fit into the ideology of either party.

I think of Bill Maher as an Independent. He's a little bit country, but a little bit rock n'roll, so to speak. I don't know that he is. But I would guess that he is, although he usu. votes Democratic. "Independent, leans left."

[underpants]

13. There are very few independent voters or the middle

There is plenty of data that shows that a very few people switch from side to side.
Very few.

You me and a few people can sit down and spend a few days figuring out swing areas and where to spend resources. This is why the pro pol types tried to dismiss Russian involvement. It ain't that hard to figure out. And the Russians figured it out.

The independent voter thing is a creation of the media. It's the only reason people tune in and THAT drives their coverage. Drama. No one watches a one horse race.

[guillaumeb]

14. I agree.

My opinion is that anyone who claims to be Independent is uninformed on the issues that affect 99% of the population.

[Hortensis]

22. According to Pew, that's more true than not.

True, most of the posturing of indies of being above party politics is phony, and most of it arises from ignorance about who we are and resulting vulnerability to lies.

However, what the OP doesn’t point out is that most of the shift away from the Republicans is occurring among people who transition to calling themselves independent.

The conservatives, only a few are taking that next step of voting against what the Republicans are doing. But most of them are concerned, and it’s critical to note that some of them are taking that first step and IMO only ignorant fools and scoundrels would be against encouraging that.

Then there are all the left-leaning indies. The OP for some strange reason tends to ignore their existence, but those who vote for us are us, regardless of label, and those who don’t are the people we need to get to the polls. Or we need Trump to do it for us.

[guillaumeb]

29. Well said.

Yes, we must encourage people to vote for Democrats by educating them about the real issues. We cannot depend on the US corporate media to do that job.

And while the GOP is effectively the Party of racists, that dose not mean that all GOP voters are racists. We might be able to persuade some that Trump is unfit. Enough? And in the needed areas?

As to left leaning Independents, some no doubt did not vote, and studies show that approximately 12% of Sanders voters either did not vote or voted for the GOP, or for Jill Stein in protest.

[Hortensis]

62. Yes. Of course, It's their responsibility to educate them selves.

There are huge limits to what others, even trying their best, can do in this respect for millions who aren’t listening but are vulnerable to the constant barrage of disinformation targeted at them.

That’s why I mention Trump. He’s doing more than we can ever do by alarming those people who do know it’s not supposed to be this way.

As for that 12% of a small minority of the electorate, they were never ours to lose. They can’t be reached by facts or by appeals to honesty and rationality, or responsibility. Roosevelt’s New Dealers called them the lunatic fringe and gave up trying to work with them. To them now as then, WE are their big problem that must be defeated, not Trump and the Republicans.

So nothing new. If it weren’t for the media serving the right, including those from Russia, their noise would barely be heard. Those who refuse to vote Democrat were hostile long before they got all excited by one of the 2016 candidates, who I believe is one of them, and were never ours to keep. IMO, these types make wobbly conservative independents appear rational and responsible in comparison.

[Honeycombe8]

23. I don't think so at all. There is data.

People themselves identify as Independent. That is conclusive.

If there are 10 registered Democrats and 10 registered Republicans, and 9 voters in an election...them some of those 9 are Independents, because 99% of any party doesn't vote in an election. So some of the 9 are independents.

You can also do a count in states where voters registered to a party. Punch a button, and you get the # of "no party" registered voters.

[underpants]

37. They almost always vote the same way

They may change in state and House races but state wide they pretty much always votethe some way. They claim independent for the same reason people claim "morals" in exit interviews- they don't want to admit that they are easily manipulated.

[Honeycombe8]

59. Do you have any data on that, or is that just what you think?

Here's the latest breakdown:

Last year, 42% of Americans, on average, identified as political independents, erasing the decline to 39% seen in the 2016 presidential election year. Independent identification is just one percentage point below the high of 43% in 2014. Twenty-nine percent of Americans identify themselves as Democrats and 27% as Republicans.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/225056/americans-identification-independents-back-2017.aspx

Independents often lean left or lean right, but they DO swing, depending on the candidate and which issues are top priority at the time. Abortion rights? The lean left indie will likely vote Democratic, IF the candidate isn't too far left. Lowering taxes? The lean right indie will likely vote Republican, IF the candidate isn't a total wacko like Trump.

They do mix it up, though. I've known a few Indies, and stats show that they do. For Presidential elections, the candidates play to their bases and parties, but they also seek the coveted Independents in a close race, because they WILL vote for either candidate, depending.

They don't have party loyalty. And both parties represent something they disapprove of. EXAMPLE: Some Repubs have left the Repub party because of Trump and his loyalists. They are independents, mainly, now. They WILL vote for the Democratic candidate, if s/he is not too far left. If the Democratic candidate is objectionable to them, they may not vote or may vote third party. They won't vote for Trump, if he's still the candidate, tho.

[Hortensis]

17. More of a polemic then a question, surely?

Btw, The message your OP no doubt sincerely delivers is one that is being massively delivered by our enemies. It is: refuse to unite to defeat them.

Whenever we read or hear anything these days, we should ask ourselves who does this message benefit? Who is pushing this attitude? Why?

Why is DU and every other political social medium being flooded with many of the endless variations of this “stay divided” (and stay fallen) message?

The midterms indicate that a large majority of Democrats do not feel this way. So just who are all these other people who claim to be us?

Think about it.

[guillaumeb]

20. My post deals with voters who claim to be Independent.

And my opinion is that there is such a huge difference between the positions of the two Parties that an informed voter should know that.

This does not mean that we should not reach out to them, but it means that more education is needed and more messaging is needed to inform these voters.

We are not going to reach the racists, or the misogynists, or the Libertarians who claim to be Independents. But we can reach the others.

And I and others have noted that we must also motivate those who are currently unmotivated to vote. That 42% is a huge bloc of potential voters.

[Hortensis]

27. My question is do you know who agree

wholeheartedly with the meme of your post? And should you be keeping company with them? If you don’t like Indies who might lean conservative, just how do you feel about hard cores, Trump and McConnell et al, and the Russians? All the same?

Somehow, to my mind the end result of “divided we fall because united with independents is totally unacceptable” just doesn’t have the right ring.

Again, maybe think about it.

[Indygram]

24. I've been a registered Independent since I first registered about 35 years ago

I registered that way initially because I didn't know enough about either party to decide which one best fit with what I believed. I like the word "Independnet." To me, the word represents thinking for myself, not being influenced by others, not jumping on bandwagons or falling prey to group think.

As I got older and learned more about political parties I realized there were a significant amount of things from BOTH parties that I just didn't agree with. I have never felt particularly aligned with either party. I like moderation, pragmatism, thoughtful ideas that involve really considering long term impact and how a policy will impact everything else. A lot of candidates just don't do that.

So, I am a moderate Independent, an elusive, much talked about "swing voter." I have not voted for a Republican for a very long time and I have never voted for a far right wing nutcase. I have also never voted for a far left wing Democrat or Independent. Over the years I have usually just voted for the most moderate candidate regardless of party. Fortunate for Democrats, Republicans have moved further to the radical right than Democrats have the radical left.

There are a very few candidates running who I really, really don't like...at all. There are a lot I find duller than a popcorn fart. There are an awful lot that I am 100% certain will lose because many people like me will end up staying home because they aren't comfortable with either choice.

In my HONEST TO GOD opinion...the BEST and perhaps only shot Democrats have is Beto O'Rourke and Democrats are working overtime trying to kneecap him, which is stupid beyond belief. He's really the ONLY one I see who can satisfy progressives without simultaneously turning off moderates like me. He can win people over ANYWHERE...he just needs to go there and talk to people and they WILL support him. He has a gift that none of the others have.

On top of that...he does NOT allow dishonest attacks to distract him from the job at hand. He doesn't keep things alive for days and days. He had the most vile, hateful, right wing smears thrown at him when running against Cruz. He just kept on with his positive, hopeful and joyous message and continued to work his ass off.

Trump is a narcissist. You can NOT beat a narcissist by allowing them to manipulate, distract and be rewarded with a defensive reaction to his attacks. You beat a narcissist by STARVING them of their supply. You ignore them and focus on things people actually care about. You withdraw ALL attention. You DEFINITELY address the issues, but you frame it on YOUR terms and do NOT make it about Trump. That's what Beto does.

Beto is also right on the border. Castro essentially called for open borders and gave Trump a talking point to tie to all Democrats and use against them. Experts on the issue know that Beto is right and Castro is wrong...as well as every last candidate that foolishly raised their hands to agree with him.

[guillaumeb]

31. A thoughtful answer.

Are you fiscally conservative and socially moderate?

How does your position motivate you on issues such as taxation, defense spending, abortion, public transportation, climate change, and such issues?

[Indygram]

41. It's pretty complicated, lol

I'm all for taxes and social programs and helping people but I can't stand wastefulness. Trump's golf trips infuriate me. I will NEVER support single payer healthcare because I think it's utterly stupid. I think choice is important. I like Medicare for America or think letting people get Medicaid based on income as a public option. I don't support Medicare for all...at all. I hate abortion with a passion and I do view it as murder but I support choice because I have no right to force my views onto anyone else. I DESPISE the idea of recreational marijuana being legalized and would prefer medical use be allowed but strictly controlled. I also don't think people should be jailed and never allowed student loans over using it. I'm all for expunged records. I DO believe it is addictive to SOME people who are prone to addiction.

I'm all for public transportation and I believe in Climate change and think it needs to be addressed right away with deadlines set like Beto's plan does. I think we NEED to be prepared militarily but don't need to be so damn trigger happy. No reason not to try to use our words like adults before firing shots. I believe people should be allowed to own guns but AR-15 and military type weapons need to be banned and background checks, red flag laws, etc are important. No national license or forced gun safety...not down with that. I am fine with public Charter schools that are part of public school system and I think the hatred of all charters is silly and misguided. They are needed where I am due to public school overcrowding. I think it's lame that teachers don't get paid more and have to buy their own supplies...and arming school employees is effing STOOOOOPID and dangerous.


And immigration...Dreamers are American...make them citizens. Help refugees and asylum seekers and help address the problems in the countries they are fleeing from. Separating families and caging babies is on level with Jewish ghettos in Germany. This shit is exactly how the holocaust started...genocide didn't happen right away...there was a build up to it. THIS is what Democrats should be talking about...because Americans will NOT stand for it if they know the truth...not DECENT Americans.

I really am just pretty moderate...I don't need a perfect candidate but I just can't get behind anyone too extreme.

[guillaumeb]

43. Thank you.

Based on your response, I would personally classify you as a moderate Democrat. And I agree with many of your positions, but would classify myself as a progressive Democrat.

[Indygram]

44. You're welcome

And over the last decade or so I have been more closely aligned with Democrats than Republicans. I was actually going to change to Democrat in order to vote for Beto in the primary. I'm in Florida and it's a closed primary. Not sure I will now, though. I'm really disgusted with how his own party is trying to kneecap him when he's the ONLY one I like. I've never liked a candidate this much in my life. Donated to him 3 times this week alone....and I have NEVER done that before.

[DesertRat]

48. The Democratic Party is not trying to "kneecap" O'Rourke

I understand your disappointment that he isn’t gaining in the polls, but bashing other Dems isn’t the way to change that.

[Indygram]

63. Stating fact is not bashing

Section 1325 sets forth criminal offenses relating to (1) improper entry into the United States by an alien, (2) entry into marriage for the purpose of evading immigration laws, and (3) establishing a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading immigration laws. <----------------------------------------------------HUMAN TRAFFICKING

https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1911-8-usc-1325-unlawful-entry-failure-depart-fleeing-immigration

That not only hinders the ability to go after coyotes but also the SOBs filling up Asian Day Spas with sex slaves.

Beto wants to completely re-write immigration law, which would end criminalizing asylum seekers and people coming for work.

Still think it was such a great thing for Castro to bring up and then later see almost all the nominees agree with him about it?

Again...speaking facts is NOT bashing.

[AlexSFCA]

60. Beto is a great guy and I donated to his Senatorial campaign

even out of state, although mostly to savor Cruz defeat.
I’m not sure why Beto is not rising in the polls, he is definitely competitive. Do you consider Warren too extreme? and if she is the nominee you likely won’t vote?

Nearly all independents I know are socially liberal fiscal conservatives.

[Indygram]

64. Yes, Warren is too extreme for my tastes

I don't dislike her as a person but I do believe that if she is the nominee Trump will be re-elected. If push comes to shove I will vote against Trump but I do think many Independents will stay home.

[DesertRat]

38. Stop accusing our Dem. candidates of wanting "open borders"

NONE of them want open borders. That is a right wing talking point that Trumpers like to use to smear our candidates. It doesn’t belong on a Democratic forum.

[Indygram]

46. Whether you like it or not, that is exactly what repealing section 1325 would mean

There was a great post on this forum by an expert on the issue who explained it but people were too busy arguing to notice.

[DesertRat]

50. "Open borders" is a right wing talking point and 100% false. nt

[Indygram]

65. Facts are facts

If Castro says that is should not be illegal for anyone to cross the border between points of entry then that is allowing access at the border. "Open" is defined as allowing access, passage, or a view through an empty space. Castro does NOT support a wall to block access. So what exactly would you call what he is supporting? Republicans like to accuse Democrats of being for open borders and Castro essentially handed them a video for their attack ads on national TV while getting most of the others to jump on the bandwagon. But yeah...keep blaming me for being honest about it.

[Turin_C3PO]

40. No one is for open borders.

That’s a Republican line and it’s 100% false.

[Indygram]

47. I know that they aren't...but thanks to Julian Castro's dishonesty

Damn near all of the candidates are now on the record supporting it by way of repealing section 1325. It will make a wonderful ad for Republicans, too.

[rownesheck]

28. So called independent voters

are the same people who have watched every season of the Kardashians. They don't pay attention to what's going on other than what's on "reality tv". They claim to be independent so they can feel better about themselves. Very annoying, especially nowadays.

[guillaumeb]

32. Read #24

[Indygram]

49. Wrong...I've never watched a single episode

In fact, I've voted exclusively for Democrats the last decade at least...but hey, go right ahead and bash people like me. It's part of the reason I stay an Independent.

[droidamus2]

35. Here are my thoughts on what makes an Independent voter

I think independent voters are a broad spectrum of the populace for the very conservative to ultra liberal. From the highly informed to the willfully ignorant. One thing that unites them is that they do not like party labels and the way those parties are run. To approach getting independent voters as if they are all somewhere between the right wing Repulicans and the progressive Democrats is short sighted. My personal view is that what many independent voters are looking for is somebody that has strong ideas and shows a willingness to fight for those ideas win or lose. Sometimes you have to lose a few battles to win the war and that is what we need. We may disagree who is the best person to push forward but I think we can all agree that it is not fat Donnie.

[guillaumeb]

42. And if all of these Independents agree that Trump is incompetent at best,

did any of them vote for him? Yes.

Labels can be imprecise because each of us decides what the terms left/right/independent mean.

[asiliveandbreathe]

45. I can only speak for myself...growing up we heard stories from our Mom -

(I tell this story for some point of reference) she was pretty much apolitical looking back..she loved Ike - don't remember why, but she spoke highly of him..perhaps due to WW11 and the stories she grew up with -FDR, Truman. When JFK became president she was enamored, the age of Camelot I suppose. Never a bad word..and I don't remember any talk of party affiliation..just issues..

Mom, looking back, was a buffer of sorts..rose colored glasses, JFK could do no wrong..and when JFK was assassinated, I was 16, the state of Mass., was shocked..I was in Algebra class 12th grade..Mr. Wendall..anyone of that age remembers where they were..

Then the escalation of Viet Nam..2 brothers served (they are okay)..protests against Viet Nam ramped up...and in 1968, when I turned 21 I was able to vote - I must have registered Independent, I don't remember being affiliated with a party other than Independent..

There was no talk of Nixon by name, just a need to help Mom with coping with both brothers in VN..from 1966-1969 - married, 3 kiddos..and a full time job...yes I was busy...very busy, after becoming a single Mom in '78..still registered Independent..with a third eye on shenanigans - Reagan - ..working, 3 kiddos, making ends meet..and Reagan ends credit card deduction ..and now I had teenagers..I don't even remember voting during those years...but, I remember my tax refund dwindled...it was tough..

Voted for Clinton both times..as an independent..did not like the impeachment one bit..everyone, even me, could see it was a sham...registered Democratic Party, to be able to vote in primary for Gore (with a move to AZ) - it wasn't until the SC selected Bush, that I became a political junkie..anyone, registered Independent today, MUST be feeling the pull to the right, and cannot walk straight up...as I did -

I totally agree with you - "any Independents who vote for the GOP candidate are lying, confused, or badly misinformed about the issues and where the two Parties stand on those issues". Or, they just don't have time to pay attention..

I was proud to work with the Democratic Party for Obama in '08 and '12..hope came alive!!!!

[guillaumeb]

53. Thank you for your story.

Hope did come alive, but GOP obstructionism also came alive.

My view, expressed here, is that the current iteration of the GOP is run by people who do not believe in democracy at all.

[CanonRay]

51. You've seen them!

The guy sitting on a park bench with a vacant look. That's him!

[randr]

54. Most likely people who are not inclined to commit

or to contribute

[guillaumeb]

55. But they will criticize. eom

[rickford66]

57. An embarrassed Republican ?

I apologize if someone already wrote that, but I agree.

[guillaumeb]

61. No one wrote it before.

And that might apply to some of them.