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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:16 PM

 

Bernie Sanders was against 'busing' in the 1970s

He slept on a friend's couch, hustled for odd jobs and hitchhiked along the campaign trail.

In the 1970s, Bernie Sanders, then in his 30s, ran -- over and over again in Vermont -- and lost repeatedly, never cracking double digits. In a series of quixotic bids at statewide office as a member of the self-described "radical" Liberty Union Party, he railed against corporate titans and promised to eliminate laws regulating drugs, homosexuality and, before the Supreme Court stepped in, abortion.

He campaigned in a local prison and spoke forcefully about racial disparities in the criminal justice system. The government, he said during a talk about desegregation busing, "doesn't give a sh** about black people."


Source: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/07/politics/kfile-bernie-sanders-vermont-1970s/index.html

The government ‘‘sometimes does bad in the guise of good things.” According to Sanders, in the long run, busing, as a means toward quality education for all school children, creates racial hostility where it did not previously exist. ‘‘The government doesn’t give a shit about black people,” he said.


Source: https://archive.org/stream/middleburyNewspapers_1974-09-19/9311_djvu.txt

So I guess Kamala Harris' supporters are going to call Bernie Sanders, the man who marched with MLK, a racist next?
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Reply Bernie Sanders was against 'busing' in the 1970s (Original post)
Galraedia Jun 2019 OP
stonecutter357 Jun 2019 #1
Goodheart Jun 2019 #2
Skittles Jun 2019 #3
Goodheart Jun 2019 #4
ucrdem Jun 2019 #5
Goodheart Jun 2019 #7
ucrdem Jun 2019 #11
StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #27
ucrdem Jun 2019 #30
StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #35
ucrdem Jun 2019 #39
StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #46
ucrdem Jun 2019 #47
StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #49
cbelle1039 Jun 2019 #22
ucrdem Jun 2019 #40
emmaverybo Jun 2019 #33
highplainsdem Jun 2019 #24
Skittles Jun 2019 #31
emmaverybo Jun 2019 #34
4now Jun 2019 #6
ucrdem Jun 2019 #8
Cha Jun 2019 #10
ucrdem Jun 2019 #15
Celerity Jun 2019 #25
ucrdem Jun 2019 #26
Celerity Jun 2019 #28
ucrdem Jun 2019 #32
Celerity Jun 2019 #37
ucrdem Jun 2019 #41
Celerity Jun 2019 #42
True Blue American Jul 2019 #57
Cha Jun 2019 #9
Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2019 #12
Cha Jun 2019 #16
ucrdem Jun 2019 #14
Cha Jun 2019 #18
BlueWI Jun 2019 #13
ucrdem Jun 2019 #17
BlueWI Jun 2019 #19
emmaverybo Jun 2019 #36
BlueWI Jun 2019 #50
emmaverybo Jun 2019 #52
BlueWI Jun 2019 #53
UniteFightBack Jun 2019 #45
BlueWI Jun 2019 #51
Cha Jun 2019 #21
Cha Jun 2019 #20
McCamy Taylor Jun 2019 #23
customerserviceguy Jun 2019 #29
True Blue American Jul 2019 #61
customerserviceguy Jul 2019 #62
LanternWaste Jul 2019 #63
customerserviceguy Jul 2019 #64
StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #66
customerserviceguy Jul 2019 #67
StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #68
customerserviceguy Jul 2019 #69
StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #70
customerserviceguy Jul 2019 #71
StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #72
customerserviceguy Jul 2019 #73
StarfishSaver Jul 2019 #74
customerserviceguy Jul 2019 #75
emmaverybo Jun 2019 #38
Voltaire2 Jun 2019 #48
emmaverybo Jun 2019 #54
Voltaire2 Jun 2019 #55
emmaverybo Jun 2019 #56
Recursion Jun 2019 #43
True Blue American Jul 2019 #58
Recursion Jul 2019 #59
True Blue American Jul 2019 #60
UniteFightBack Jun 2019 #44
LineReply .
Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2019 #65
Vegas Roller Jul 2019 #76
Cha Jul 2019 #77

Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:18 PM

1. K&R

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:20 PM

2. Who called Biden a racist?

 

Want to know how I can tell Kamala scored big?
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Goodheart (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:24 PM

3. no one

 

it's bullshit
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Response to Skittles (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:33 PM

4. All Kamala asked him to do was to admit that he was wrong to oppose busing.

 

And there's no question that he did, indeed, oppose busing.
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Response to Goodheart (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:35 PM

5. But not all busing

 

and not her busing.
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:39 PM

7. Yes, he was effectively opposed to all busing.

 

Yours is a distinction without a difference. "Voluntary busing" was meaningless in segregationist states unless it was mandatory, instead.
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Response to Goodheart (Reply #7)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:45 PM

11. Desegregation was mandatory.

 

Busing was one means to achieve it. Some districts were willing to use it, and Berkeley was one of them. Biden's legislation did not concern Berkeley.
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:18 AM

27. Biden's legislation did affect Berkeley

 

Among other things, it prohibited the use of any federal funds to bus students beyond the school nearest their homes even if the busing plan was purely voluntary and also prohibited busing to "pair" or "cluster" schools, voluntarily or otherwise.

In reality, Mr. Biden was a leading opponent of busing in the Senate during the 1970s and 1980s, and his opposition went beyond the federal government’s role in the practice.
...
In 1975, Mr. Biden supported a sweeping anti-busing measure offered by the segregationist Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina, and he offered his own less stringent anti-busing amendment to an appropriations bill.

“I oppose busing,” he said in an interview in 1975. “It’s an asinine concept, the utility of which has never been proven to me.”
...
Mr. Biden introduced another proposal in 1976 that blocked the Justice Department from seeking busing as a desegregation tool, and co-sponsored an amendment in 1977 that limited federal funding of busing efforts. He continued his efforts that year with a bill curbing court-ordered busing.

In February 1982, he voted for an amendment to a Justice Department appropriations bill described as the “toughest anti-busing rider ever approved by either chamber of Congress.” A month later, he voted in favor of another amendment that allowed the Justice Department to participate in litigation “to remove or reduce the requirement of busing in existing court decrees or judgments.”
https://nyti.ms/2Lq53ZT

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #27)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:22 AM

30. All of this pertains to federal funding.

 

Berkeley's program was not federally mandated, and continued until it was scrapped in the 90s. Biden's legislation did not concern Berkeley.
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #30)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:42 AM

35. Like most school systems, Berkeley received HEW funding that helped to pay its school transportation

 

These funds didn't differentiate between transportation costs for voluntary busing and court-ordered busing. Biden's legislation eliminated all federal funding for school busing costs, even if it was voluntary, which would have cut the assistance Berkeley and other school districts received for their transportation costs.

Please do some research this legislation
(did you even bother to read it?) and how federal education funding works before throwing out any more baseless assumptions couched as facts.
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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #35)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 02:02 AM

39. Per VOX it didn't.

 

I can't read your NYT link as I don't have a subscription and ran out of freebies, so feel free to post excerpts, but it appears that his amendments to end transportation subsidies failed, and his other legislation only affected federally ordered busing. Which, as has been pointed out, the Berkeley program was not.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/28/18965923/joe-biden-school-desegregation-busing-democratic-primary
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 10:29 AM

46. Interestingly, I was mistaken - Biden's amendment applied ONLY to voluntary busing

 

Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2019, 12:54 PM - Edit history (2)

Biden himself said it didn't cut off funding for court-ordered busing - probably because he recognized that a school couldn't be required to perform an unfunded mandate. Instead, it eliminated funding for and placed other restrictions on busing programs that were created at the local level voluntarily by local governments - exactly the kinds of program that Harris participated in and that he says he supported.

And Politifact found Biden's claim that ""I did not oppose busing in America. What I opposed is busing ordered by the Department of Education" to be Mostly False.
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/jun/28/joe-biden/joe-biden-oversimplifies-his-record-school-busing-/

VOX doesn't say what you claim - nowhere in the piece you linked does it say that Biden"s funding legislation was limited to court-ordered busing. Probably because it wasn't. But it is a very interesting and informative article and I suggest you read the whole thing:


There were a number of ways to address this issue (desegregation of segregated schools), but the one that caught public attention most was “busing” — a process where black students were driven to predominantly white schools in neighboring communities, and white students were driven to predominantly black ones. Many busing orders were mandated in the late 1960s and early 1970s after civil rights groups like the NAACP filed — and later won — school desegregation lawsuits.

Busing was often used as a last resort for cities and districts that clearly showed little interest in desegregation. It was used to immediately integrate schools in the hopes of not only ending state-sanctioned segregation of blacks and whites, but to also give black and white students equal access to resources and opportunities. Many of these opportunities had been isolated to white schools in white communities. Predominantly black and Latino schools, meanwhile, struggled with overcrowding, outdated materials, and dilapidated buildings.

But busing — one of many tools used to secure black students’ constitutional right to equal education — was often strongly opposed by white parents, many of whom did not want their children in integrated schools. Some parents and lawmakers stated that outright, others used different anti-busing arguments: saying that long bus rides to different schools were burdensome, and that their children were being placed in lower-quality schools (ignoring that schools in predominantly black neighborhoods had fewer resources and that per capita spending on black students was smaller).

Parents also claimed that “forced busing” wouldn’t work to bring about racial equality and would merely function as quotas. (To be fair, there were black people who also criticized busing, but their opposition was complex, and contrary to white Americans, their critiques of busing and the political attention it received were not rooted in a desire to maintain segregation, but rather a hope to see deeper investment in black schools and communities.)



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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #46)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 10:42 AM

47. Read on:

 

The second amendment easily passed the Senate, but both of Biden’s proposals were stripped out of the bill later in the process.


And in any case Biden was concerned with federal funding for one deeply unpopular remediation. It did not affect the desegregation order and it did not preclude districts like Berkeley from choosing busing as a remedy.
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #47)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 12:56 PM

49. Yes. Fortunately, House Democrats thwarted Biden's attempt to refund the kinds of programs Harris

 

participated in.

But if Biden had gotten his way, voluntary busing programs like Harris's would have been defunded and would have been rendered virtually impossible, despite his claims now that he fully supported voluntary busing.
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Response to Goodheart (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 12:25 AM

22. So was my AA family. All of them. And we still are.

 

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Response to cbelle1039 (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 02:02 AM

40. Thank you.

 

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Response to Goodheart (Reply #4)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:37 AM

33. She did more than that. She misrepresented herself as "that little girl" who had benefitted

 

from federally mandated busing, which he had opposed, when it was locally mandated busing, which he did not oppose, which gave her access to a quality education in an integrated school.

She told a good story, but should have used another little girl to make the point.
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Response to Skittles (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 12:42 AM

24. Tom Nichols, a prominent NeverTrumper who gets quoted a lot on DU and who plans to vote

 

for the Democratic nominee (even if it's Harris, whom he now considers just slightly better than Williamson though Harris had been a favorite of his before the debate), would disagree with you about whether Biden was being called a racist:





Saying in a televised debate “I don’t think you’re a racist, *but*...” is a way of saying “I think you’re a racist and I want others to think so too.”



The tweet where he said she'd gone from being one of his top choices to just above Williamson:


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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #24)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:31 AM

31. more bullshit

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #24)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:39 AM

34. Wow. That is it exactly. What Nichols said. NT

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:35 PM

6. What is this all about - are some people actually campaining to bring back forced busing?

 

Sorry I have been out of the loop lately.
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Response to 4now (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:40 PM

8. Kamela Harris's debate gotcha.

 

She accused Biden of opposing a voluntary busing program she'd participated in while living in Berkeley. He didn't.
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #8)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:44 PM

10. E gods!

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Cha (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 10:03 PM

15. If Biden bounces back, and he probably will,

 

where does she go with this? She'll probably lose in CA and get nothing in the next admin. How could she accept it? The whole thing was ill advised.


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Response to ucrdem (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:07 AM

25. that is pure spin, and not true

 

as has been documented countless times

completely debunked


It also uses the old tried and true states rights claptrap and once again spins up the de facto versus de jure angle that non-southern cities always tossed out to try and keep up segregation (and not just on education)

CNN fact checked your claims

and found them very wanting indeed

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1144461457624403974.html


Daniel Dale
@ddale8
Reporter for CNN, fact-checking politicians.
6 tweets, 1 min read

Biden's claim tonight that he only opposed federally mandated busing and did not generally oppose "busing in America" was a flagrant misrepresentation of his position in the '70s and '80s. He'd made crystal clear he opposed busing as a concept, as a matter of principle.

Biden's remarks on busing in the 1970s were generally very unequivocal -- "I oppose busing. It's an asinine concept." "A bankrupt concept." "Busing does not work." He expressed pride for making anti-busing sentiment "respectable" among liberals.


As recently re-reported by WaPo, Biden said things like this about busing: “What it says is, ‘In order for your child with curly black hair, brown eyes, and dark skin to be able to learn anything, he needs to sit next to my blond-haired, blue-eyed son.’ That’s racist!"

It wasn't just words: working with avowed racists, Biden pushed legislation to make it difficult to run busing programs. There *was* a caveat: he said he would support busing in cases where it'd been proven that a community had been intentionally segregated. But otherwise no.

Biden's campaign says that his position on busing would not have stopped the particular local busing program that Kamala Harris was a part of, since it was voluntarily adopted by the local community. In general, though: she was not mischaracterizing his opposition to busing. Biden campaign’s argument is that him saying in the ‘70s that he opposed busing was understood then to mean he simply opposed federal-mandated busing, not all busing. Like when GOP said under Obama they oppose health reform, was obvious it meant Obamacare, not all health reform.



Joe Biden called busing a ‘liberal train wreck.’ Now his stance on school integration is an issue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joe-biden-called-busing-a-liberal-train-wreck-now-his-stance-on-school-integration-is-an-issue/2019/06/28/557705dc-99b3-11e9-830a-21b9b36b64ad_story.html?utm_term=.7e64c79ab655

snip

During the debate, Biden charged that Harris was mischaracterizing his record. Yet Biden’s opposition to court-ordered busing is one of the most well-documented views of his career. In his 2007 autobiography, “Promises to Keep,” he called busing “a liberal train wreck.”

While Biden ran and won election as a liberal, Delaware voters at the time also elected anti-busing Republicans. Many white parents in the suburbs of Wilmington, the state’s largest city, were not willing to send their children into the city, where the schools were dominated by black students.

During the heat of the battle, in the mid-1970s, Biden called busing “an asinine concept, the utility of which has never been proven to me. I’ve gotten to the point where I think our only recourse to eliminate busing may be a constitutional amendment.”

snip

The following year, Biden told NPR that liberal Democrats for too long had kept quiet about the matter because it would put them in the company of Alabama Gov. George Wallace (D), a leading segregationist.

Speaking to a Delaware weekly called the People Paper, Biden put it starkly: “The new integration plans being offered are really just quota systems to assure a certain number of blacks, Chicanos, or whatever in each school. That, to me, is the most racist concept you can come up with. What it says is, ‘In order for your child with curly black hair, brown eyes, and dark skin to be able to learn anything, he needs to sit next to my blond-haired, blue-eyed son.’ That’s racist!”

Biden, meanwhile, led a faction of Democrats to sponsor legislation that would restrict the ability of federal courts to institute busing orders, according to a 1978 account in the Wilmington Evening Journal. During this period, he worked to sponsor anti-busing legislation with Southern senators with segregationist backgrounds.

That upset Democrats who supported busing, and some of them took Biden aside and asked how and when “the racists had gotten to me,” as Biden told it in his autobiography. An aide to the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. told Biden he was being “duped.”


snip




Biden's track record on busing: In 1977, he called it a 'bankrupt policy'
(video)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/videos/what-joe-biden-said-about-school-busing-amendment-in-1977/vi-AADz8Hl


CNN Biden letters reveal he resisted this desegregation tactic




Senate Rejects Amendment to Restrict Judge's Authority on School Busing

(Biden was for it)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1978/08/24/senate-rejects-amendment-to-restrict-judges-authority-on-school-busing/6ba7d8ed-d746-46c5-8aa9-51e134ec89bc/?utm_term=.552468cca54f




here he admits to making anti-bussing acceptable (if not respectable, then reasonable) to make it okay for long-standing liberals to oppose bussing, even though at the time multiple civil rights protections were under attack

https://books.google.se/books?id=ZFQE3bLDsS4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Between+North+and+South:+Delaware,+Desegregation,+and+the+Myth+of+American&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI3vygyYzjAhXyxcQBHYohDEIQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Between%20North%20and%20South%3A%20Delaware%2C%20Desegregation%2C%20and%20the%20Myth%20of%20American&f=false

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Response to Celerity (Reply #25)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:17 AM

26. So after pasting this thing in several threads

 

you still haven't figured out that busing is spelled with one s?
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:18 AM

28. bussing

 

correct for me

UK raised and schooled

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Response to Celerity (Reply #28)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:31 AM

32. Welll in that case, welcome!

 

Are you writing from there?
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #32)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:50 AM

37. not in the UK at the moment, but I am in the EU now, for the summer, plus we do live now in

 

Southern California, for the near future at least (once we return in the fall).

I was born in Los Angles, but my parents moved back to London when I was a toddler.

I came back a couple years ago for one of my uni degrees as my parents divorced and my father moved back to SoCal (before I did, I was still in uni in the EU.)

We (my wife and I) live with him atm (nothing beats a free letting, lol). Ted Lieu is my my congressman.

I always have the urge to correct (for me) the spelling of articles I cut and paste from US sources, but that is pretty much swings and roundabouts, as it is too much work and also I feel it is not being honest with the integrity of the posting.

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Response to Celerity (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 02:12 AM

41. Okay thanks!

 

That explains the UK spelling which I believe is permitted!
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #41)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 02:30 AM

42. yw!

 

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Response to Celerity (Reply #28)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 03:21 AM

57. To me that

 

Would be the proper spelling, too! USA!
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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:43 PM

9. Kamala said she didn't believe Biden is

 

a racist.. right before she "threw a plate of Spaghetti at him".

Yes, BS was against busing.. but Biden was the only one she attacked. Wonder how BS was feeling at that moment in time?
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Response to Cha (Reply #9)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:53 PM

12. Lol. Nice try. Bernie didn't team up with notorious racist segregationists.

 

Also, notice he was pro gay rights and pro choice while other people were claiming Roe “went too far” and a woman “shouldn’t have complete control of her body”
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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 10:05 PM

16. I pointed out a fact.. too bad you don't like it.

 

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Response to Cha (Reply #9)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:59 PM

14. He's thinking, please don't let her get meatsauce on my new suit

 



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Response to ucrdem (Reply #14)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 10:10 PM

18. Oh NOOOOes! BS was standing right

 

between them! OMG..

He's thinking, please don't let her get meatsauce on my new suit
lol

Thanks for that, ucr.. I saw another pic that looked liked she was right next to Biden.. so I imagined BS way down the line contemplating the issue. lol

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 09:56 PM

13. Wow, a new standard for whataboutism.

 

The old marks for making any conceivable issue about Bernie Sanders were hard to beat on DU. Congrats!
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 10:06 PM

17. It's an important data point.

 

There are probably a few others of that generation who held similar views.
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 10:10 PM

19. If Bernie Sanders says how proud he was to work with James Eastland

 

I am sure that a similar reaction would occur from many.

And did someone say Joe Biden was a racist? I missed that part.
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #19)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:46 AM

36. Spin. He said he liked the civility people of opposing views used with each

 

other “to get the job done.”
He never, ever said he was proud to work with Eastland.
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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #36)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 03:46 PM

50. Splitting hairs IMO

 

I'm not going to re-look up his quotation, but here's my rewording of my own statement: If Bernie Sanders mentioned interactions with James Eastland to exemplify "the civility of people with opposing views...", to use your phrasing, he'd be subject to criticism and rightly so.
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #50)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 04:06 PM

52. I don't think it was advisable to bring up two segregationists to make his point. NT .

 

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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #52)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 04:08 PM

53. Agreed.

 

And while I support other candidates in the primaries, if Biden wins, I really really really want him to win in the GE. So I would love to see some cleanup for future speaking on this issue.
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #19)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 05:27 AM

45. Except Biden NEVER SAID HE WAS PROUD. Edit your post. nt

 

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Response to UniteFightBack (Reply #45)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 04:02 PM

51. Accuracy matters, I agree.

 

Did you ask the OP to alter the implication that Biden was called a racist? That would be an even-handed approach to accuracy.

Biden said that Eastland called him son and never called him boy, in the context of reflecting about the need to build consensus within a caucus, across disagreements. In a 2020 Democratic primary. You are right that it's hard to assess what emotion Biden attached to this recollection - but if Eastland called him son and not boy, that implies fondness for Biden on Eastland's part, and Biden must have thought Eastland's fondness helped prove a point for a 2020 audience.

The statement strikes me, at best, as a nonsequiter and a poor example of collaboration for a Democratic audience during a competitive primary. Of course I would say the same thing about Sanders for a gaffe, as has occurred before. I'm pretty confident that Sanders would not reference James Eastland in this way, though. And I am confident that the Biden campaign will recognize the need for cleanup, much more so than most of the DU Biden supporters.
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Response to ucrdem (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 10:11 PM

21. Yes, it is.. I can't understand why

 

anyone would want it to be swept under the rug.
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Response to BlueWI (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 29, 2019, 10:10 PM

20. It's good to know.. I had no idea.

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 12:26 AM

23. Why is everyone so down on bussing? I was bussed--to an integrated school that I loved

 

much better than any of the all white suburban schools that I had attended before or after. Diversity is great! A multicultural school is stronger for its many cultures.
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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #23)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:21 AM

29. It ended a generation or so ago

 

and the subject of busing did not come up during the Clinton or the Obama years. I'm glad that your experience was a positive one, but it caused white flight from the cities, and is greatly responsible for the sorry state that most US cities are in.
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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 04:18 AM

61. It also caused black fight of those who could afford it

 

Left the cities struggling. Was one of the main reasons for the explosion of the Suburbs.
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Response to True Blue American (Reply #61)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 12:10 PM

62. Yes

 

and coupled with the finishing of the Interstate Highway System, it became economically feasible to work in a city, and live comfortably and safely within its suburbs.
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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 02:17 PM

63. Not a cause, merely an excuse.

 

"it caused white flight from the cities..."

Not a cause, merely an excuse. There's a difference 'tween the two words.
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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #63)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 02:43 PM

64. I believe it was a cause

 

I don't know how old you are, but if you're under the age of fifty-five, then you have no living memory of the urban riots of the 1965-68 time frame, where even after passage of the Civil Rights Acts, the inner cities would blow up into fiery infernos every summer, and the problems spread to more and more cities.

During the busing period, these "race wars" as they were sometimes called, were displayed on TV as often as was the carnage from Vietnam. When white people were told that their kids would be transported to inner city neighborhoods for school every day, they were alarmed. Even if they had raised their kids as best as possible to minimize racism, they knew that would not protect their children from physical violence. So, they moved out of the school district, and just commuted to the jobs in the city, where the adults felt that they would be better able to deal with any violence that occurred.

I know that the Sixties are often depicted as times when people were into peace, love, rock-and-roll, and pot, but they were incredibly intense times for the people who lived in them. In 1968, even with George Wallace being on the ballot in all fifty states, bleeding off the votes of the most racist whites, and even snagging the electoral votes of several Southern states, Nixon managed to win the election with his dog whistle slogans of "Law and Order" and "This time, vote like your whole world depended on it" to lure the votes of frightened white people.

With middle class working people deserting the cities in droves, they deteriorated. Then, they were targeted by the Giuliani types who were into crackdown mode, and the drug laws that put away thousands of people for minor amounts of substances that had been sold legally earlier in the century.

Calling white flight an excuse ignores the history that white people of various European ethnicites and people of color had living with each other in urban areas, even if sometimes it was less than ideal. My adoptive grandfather came from Poland, and he had about as much tolerance for a racial joke as he did for a "Polack" joke. He was a union representative in the steel mills of Northwestern Indiana, and always fought hard to make sure African-Americans were treated fairly by the mills and by the union.
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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #64)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 03:55 PM

66. The incidents you're referring to in the early-to mid-60s pre-dated court-ordered busing

 

Most of the busing that occurred during that period was part of voluntary desegregation plans developed at the local level by local governments without federal mandates.

The huge controversy around busing didn't begin until the 1970s after the cities that refused to desegregate voluntarily were taken to court and ordered to develop desegregation plans that reassigned students to different schools. That's when the shit hit the fan.

So any white flight you're blaming on desegregation in the mid- to late-60s was not caused by busing. It was provoked primarily by white people who did not want their children to attend integrated schools.
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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #66)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 04:15 PM

67. Yes, they are

 

And for some reason, the riots and violence stopped after 1968. Maybe it was seeing that they were counterproductive, both in terms of changing anything for the better in the cities, or politically because they led to the election of Nixon.

But the memories of that time were seared in the minds of many people, who had different reactions to them. Nobody knew if the riots would start up again. White flight started in the 1960's, but it continued through the 1970's, and I contend that busing was one of the reasons why. I also contend that the reason white people did not want their children in integrated schools was because of fear of violence.

Before we heard, "Drill, baby, drill!" from Sarah Palin, we heard "Burn, baby, burn" from people cheering on the 1965 Watts riots. It's tough to imagine sending your kids into that environment. If we can understand why Guatemalans would make a long trek on foot with their children to avoid drug gangs, we should be able to understand why white people would move their families to the suburbs during that time.

It didn't help America get any better.
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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #67)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 04:28 PM

68. Have you read the Kerner Report?

 

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #68)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 04:33 PM

69. Not lately, although I recall hearing about their conclusions

 

It might be refreshing to read after all of these years. Are you referring to any specific points in the report?
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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #69)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 05:14 PM

70. The Executive Summary is a good read

 

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6545/

I brought it up because you seem very knowledgeable about that period and the Report not only laid out the situation really well, it was scarily prescient about the direction we would go if racism and discrimination weren't addressed. If you hadn't read it, I wanted to flag it for you as something to put on your reading list.

Interestingly, the recommendations the report laid out could form a foundation for a reparations discussion.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #70)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 05:45 PM

71. Thank you

 

It is interesting reading, and going through it, I was reminded of things I read before, but have since forgotten. Also, thanks for that website in general, it looks like it could be educational in a number of topics of American History. I'd use Wikipedia as the "Cliffs Notes", then dive into the course on HistoryMatters.

Clearly, white flight was going on in the 1960's, I'm not completely correct about thinking that school busing started it. But, I think the case can be made that it exacerbated the problem. Also, the Kerner Report seems to be very optimistic that the US could reverse course, had Humphrey been elected, that might well have happened. Certainly with Nixon winning, and all the voters willing to go with George Wallace, it was an aspiration that was not achievable.
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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #71)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 06:14 PM

72. Glad to do it!

 

While white flight in the '70s is often attributed to "busing," the real cause was desegregation, just as it was in the 60s.

The only difference is that more of the desegregation was court ordered - after so many cities refused to voluntarily comply with the law, black parents sued to enforce compliance. There was a spate of cases in the late 1960s and 1970s, mostly in the north, in which plaintiffs proved rampant and often intentional segregation. The defendants either entered into consent decrees or the courts ordered them to reassign students in order to overcome the segregation they had imposed directly and intentionally or arose from segregated housing that local and federal government were complicit in creating. Busing was the tool used to get children to their new schools, but the problem was the desegregation, not the transportation.

These parents were part of communities that fought desegregation tooth and nail, managing to stave it off for years through defiance of the law. But when the courts for involved and began ordering the school districts to comply with the law, they pulled up stakes and left.

It was the desegregation, not the bus rides.
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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #72)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 07:12 PM

73. Wasn't busing

 

the chief tool of desegregation? It's not like people were living in integrated neighborhoods, with white children going to school in one end of town, while black children were going to school in the other end.
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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #73)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 07:21 PM

74. It was a tool

 

But the real issue was the segregated schools and neighborhoods. The segregation was so entrenched that the courts eventually had to reassign the students to other schools in order to overcome the segregation. Sometimes the schools weren't far away and in walking distance. Sometimes they were farther away and the school provided transportation.

But school bus transportation was very common - kids had been bused all the time for decades and only a small percentage of school busing was for integration. In fact busing was often used to keep schools segregated with black children riding for miles common often passed one or more white schools.

That said, how else other than school reassignments do you propose schools could have been desegregated - especially in communities in which the neighborhoods had been strictly segregated for years and the school boards had consistently refused in the 15r 20 years after Brown to make any effort to integrate?
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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #74)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 07:39 PM

75. Hmm, I only had my own experience

 

in northwestern Indiana to go by. In Gary, there was a black side of town, and a white side of town (Glen Park) with a highway dividing them. Black kids went to school on their side, white kids on their side, and I went to Catholic school. It was not because of any sort of reason other than my parents' wanting to provide me with a religious-based education.

In 1964, we moved to a suburb, Merrillville, and I went to public school. We were caught up in the white flight of the time, most all the neighbor kids had learned a lot of racism from their parents. If any of it came home with me, I was quickly corrected.

In 1969, we moved to a suburb of Portland, Oregon, and while there were not many African-American families in our town, they were integrated into junior high and high school with me, although they were a tiny minority.

I was unaware of the use of buses to deliberately segregate schools.
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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #23)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 01:51 AM

38. Federally forced busing was not an unmitigated success. Biden was not opposed to integrated

 

schools or busing. He believed how schools were integrated should be up to state and local
authority.
In Harris’s case, her local school board voted to integrate schools. She was not bused under a
Federally mandated law.
I am glad you had a good experience.
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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #38)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 10:47 AM

48. State and local authorities- yeah which is

 

exactly why racist shithead Eastland was all in with Biden on banning federal mandated busing.
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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #48)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 05:00 PM

54. Sure. I don't believe racism motivated Biden's wanting the ban. I am not arguing his position,

 

however, in my comment. I am only pointing out a lack of transparency in Harris using herself as an example to suggest Biden’s position could have denied her, personally, an opportunity to access
quality, integrated education.
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Response to emmaverybo (Reply #54)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 05:02 PM

55. Biden was part of the party turning away

 

from serious efforts to desegregate our schools because of the political cost. We gave up. We settled for affirmative action to rebalance the inequity, and then we retreated on that too.
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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #55)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 05:14 PM

56. You have a good argument, not the mainstay, though of the one Harris used.

 

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #23)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 03:13 AM

43. Because it still terrifies white people

 

Frankly I think it needs to happen a lot more, at the point of a bayonet if needs be
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Response to Recursion (Reply #43)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 03:23 AM

58. Point of a bayonet?

 

How Trumpian that sounds.
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Response to True Blue American (Reply #58)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 04:09 AM

59. It was Eisenhower. Never heard of Little Rock? (nt)

 

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Response to Recursion (Reply #59)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 04:15 AM

60. I heard of it

 

Lived through it, watched it happen. Still does not fit with the hate we are witnessing today.
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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sun Jun 30, 2019, 05:26 AM

44. Well no he's not a racist.......BUT................................ nt

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 02:46 PM

65. .

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Jul 1, 2019, 08:13 PM

76. I thought BS wrote essays in the 1970's

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Wed Jul 3, 2019, 02:16 AM

77. This definitely needs a kick

 

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