The Debate From a Slightly Different Perspective

[peggysue2]

I've just had my cable capacity restored after a major power outage in our area. Lost all my in-house electronic connections--TV, phones and computer. Consequently, my husband and I (and our dog Kiera) listened to last night's debate via my car's Sirius connection. Which meant we sat in the driveway for 2+ hours running the car, switching to battery assist, running the car, etc., etc., etc. We did this bc our pooch gets motion sickness, so a 2+ hour drive was out of the question. Anyway . . .

I listened to the debate devoid of the optics. I was a bit startled the some DUer's were making reference to Joe Biden's appearance or that he sounded 'shaky.' To me (husband and puppy agree), Biden defended himself and threw some punches back without getting nasty. He was also one of the few debate participants who honored the time limits. Only heard Joe go over his time allotment once though I might have missed another occasion running into the house to use the bathroom. In any case, he had a much better night than in the first round. He held his own, he answered his critics and he passionately defended President Obama's record.

Kamala Harris had a reversal of fortune last night, IMHO. She was not forthcoming on the details of her healthcare proposal, eg. that people will be kicked off their employer-based insurance programs. Simply saying that private insurance will still be available is tap-dancing around the major issue, specifically removing people from plans they have and want to keep. Then there was the surprise attack from Tulsi Gabbard which was pretty harsh and for which Harris seemed unprepared. Maybe a little karma worked its way into the room!

Cory Booker was as aggressive as I'd anticipated. According to Booker, we're all to believe that every flaw/fault of our criminal justice system is Joe Biden's responsibility. A step too far in my mind. Plus, Booker definitely got prickly when Biden mentioned Booker's own shortcomings in Newark. It was a 'what's okay for thee is off-limits for me' moment. Not an effective approach if you're that thin-skinned. That being said, I'm sure Booker will get the attention he wanted. Whether it will be good or bad remains to be seen. But I must say, criticizing President Obama could result in a huge backlash. Not a good strategy from where I was sitting.

Tulsi Gabbard was ready to rumble last night. Just can't figure her out. She's not going to be the nominee but I wonder if she's hoping for a cabinet position in a Biden Administration. She's not a fan of Kamala Harris that's for damn well sure. But I don't know why the laser focus on Harris' background and AG history? Puzzling.

Inslee is the go-to man for all things climate related. DiBlasio was a jerk for a second time and Gillibrand was ineffective (though I liked her Clorox the Oval Office line).

Castro needs to drop the decriminalization discussion because this is a fatal subject for Dems with all our current immigration problems. More effective would be a call for a renewed push on an actual immigration policy, so everyone knows the rules upfront and underscoring the right of asylum for those at the border. There are other strategies of increasing funds (rather than Trump's cutting) for our southern neighbors to improve their economies and reduce crime so people don't feel the desperation to leave in the first place. But the word 'decriminalization' is toxic in the present atmosphere.

Andrew Yang brings an interesting and important perspective to the discussion--the guaranteed income idea in face of the AI revolution which will decimate employment. It's something we're going to deal with in the future whether we want to or not. But I don't think it's enough to move the needle, at least not yet. Poor Michael Bennet's voice was lost in the noise. What became clear to me, however, is that Bennet shares a lot of Biden's positions, a liberal to moderate pragmatic platform, things we can get done and restore.

So, that was my personal reaction without seeing the expressions, gestures or body language. Biden (who is my choice at the moment) held his own. Harris took a number of slings and arrows and a few I suspect left a mark. As for Booker? Guess we'll have to see the post-debate polling to determine if the pugilistic debate style worked. It didn't for me (my husband and puppy as well). But we're just three entities and Kiera doesn't vote.

[highplainsdem]

1. Enjoyable read, and a very good analysis -- thank you! I'm so sorry about your having to sit

in the driveway for hours, though.

[peggysue2]

2. I think we created conversation for our neighbors

I'm certain they were thinking: What the Hell are they doing out there????



Thanks for the read and comments, highplainsdem.

[Hortensis]

6. Lol. Imagine the responses if you told them.

[hlthe2b]

3. Yeah.. even though I "watched it" (heavy on the multi-tasking), your impressions are consistent

with my own. Seeing Bennett, rather than simply hearing him, helped--and he was quite passionate (for him).

I was dreading this debate and while my worst fears were not realized, it was unpleasant in many respects and left me annoyed that Obama's record was attacked as a proxy to go after Biden.

I actually like having Andrew Yang in the mix (and I didn't think I would). He is humorous, smart as a whip, and lends a fresh perspective.

[peggysue2]

7. The criticism of the Obama years surprised me as well

I do not think that's going to work with the vast majority of Dem voters. In fact, I predict serious blowback. President Obama is very popular. So why diss him and his policies? Doesn't make sense and only hands Trump ammunition to be used later.

Dumb, dumb, dumb!

[demmiblue]

4. "I was a bit startled the some DUer's were making reference to Joe Biden's appearance..."

Yeah, this was disgusting (and Biden is not in my top three or four):

I can't pretty it up for Biden

...he looked defensive, and it's the first time in a while I've really had a look at him.

He was squinty, and defensive. He was also given to shout at people who confronted him. This was a DELIBERATE STRATEGY, and it didn't go over well, in my view.

And look, I don't think Biden has made a good case for himself. I remember a much less defensive man who was jovial and engaging. This Biden seemed bitter and defensive. I don't think that's a good look for anyone.

And his face is screwed up somehow, like so many face jobs turn out. He should have left it alone, if I'm correct and he's had work done. It gave him a permanent squint, looks like, even when he's laughing he looks upset.

Does his face hurt? Is it pulled too tight? I don't know much about face lifts.

The scolding doesn't work on me.

[peggysue2]

10. Soooooo . . .

what is the poster insinuating? That Biden had a mini-facelift, botox, taped his face up with those little thingies people use to lift jowls and eyes?

LOL!

If that's the criticism, the critic loses. As for Biden sounding bitter? I think I listened to a different debate.

Thanks for putting this up, demmiblue. I hadn't caught the full exchange.

[onetexan]

30. Spot on. I thought Joe was measured, articulate & strong

At all the right times. I dont get the media & people saying he looked feeble & fumbling.

[demmiblue]

39. De nada.

Apparently, scolding does work since she/he deleted the nasty comment(s).

The person (not naming names) threatened to alert on my post via DU mail.

[peggysue2]

40. Really?

Seems there's a lot of that (threats to alert) going around these days. But personally I find doing so via personal DU mail especially egregious. Downright creepy, in fact.

Thanks for staying strong, demmiblue. There's a lesson in this for all of us.

[Cha]

53. Exactly, PeggySue!

[Hortensis]

69. Agree. Slimy post that demmiblue reposted, creepy threat.

NOT okay.

[BannonsLiver]

12. Whoever they are, they're an asshole.

[Cha]

46. You Got That Absolutely, right!

[lapucelle]

50. Mr. Liver wins the day.

[Cha]

56. Love me some

forthright posts. like BL's!

[George II]

55. Bazinga!

[stonecutter357]

29. it's a disgusting opinion and should be posted all over DU !

[Cha]

47. Damn Straight!

[George II]

54. Wow. Who could be so petty that he/she cared about how many face jobs one (might have) had....

....or whether is face is "pulled too tight"?

As far as I'm concerned, he could have two heads but if he had policies that I agree with I'll vote for him.

[leftieNanner]

5. Very good analysis

I don't get Tulsi gabbard either. Will she be the new Jill Stein?

[peggysue2]

13. Will she be the new Jill Stein?

OMG, I hope not. We certainly don't need a repeat of 2016. I have read the Republican right is giving Tulsi props and donations. I just don't know what her game is. And the attacks on Kamala Harris--do these two women have a history? Or is this opposition research/attack straight out of left field, fueled primarily for a boost in the polls?

I don't get it.

[onetexan]

31. Could you let me know what it is about Gabbard that is so toxic

To Dems? I really dont know much about her except whats on wikipedia.

[peggysue2]

41. I think her stance on Syria and . . .

Assad who butchered/snuffed out his own citizens turned many Dems against her personal judgment. She's also insisted that the Russian link to the 2016 election loss has been overblown, even though we know from Mueller's report that intrusion happened, was welcomed and generally ignored by the GOP and Mitch McConnell. There's more but those two positions alone have left a very bad taste.

I think there's a reason that Gabbard has become the darling of the right-wing. And it's certainly not to help the Democratic Party.

[onetexan]

48. thanks. Agree, those positions play into RW hands

[Hekate]

49. Journalistic research in Tulsi's home state. From my bookmarks, this link...

This is a link to one of Mahina's posts, and at the end she has many more links...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211667912

Another link, from a post by pnwmom

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211695834

And another about her support by Putin apologists in the US

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287123396

[Cha]

58. Mahalo, Hekate!

[sheshe2]

51. She also refused to debate any candidates running for her seat.

That is not a good look to any Democratic candidate.

[onetexan]

52. Wow, and she managed to win

[Cha]

59. She's my Rep, onetexan.. and

I haven't liked her since she used to go on fox "news" and whine about President Obama not calling it ".. Radical Islam .."

And, here's a couple of tweets of hers..

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

She has stated on numerous occasions that she supports expanding the use of drone strikes against military opponents, and, in 2014, refused to rule out the idea of using torture on suspected terrorists. Gabbard also spoke out vehemently against the Iran nuclear deal when it was first proposed by President Obama.

https://arcdigital.media/tulsi-gabbard-is-not-anti-war-660e7d1e4ce1

Link to tweet

[onetexan]

62. Whoa, seems she's pro-Russian

Worrisome in deed. I hope they get a good Dem replacement for her seat. Thanks Cha!

[Cha]

64. So do I!

State Senator Kai Kehele is a popular state Senator is up and running against her.

Sen. Kai Kahele Says He’s Raised $250,000 To Challenge Tulsi Gabbard

https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/04/sen-kai-kahele-says-hes-raised-250000-to-challenge-tulsi-gabbard/

And, this was in April..

[Cha]

60. Mahalo, she.. for pointing that out.. here's some

more I just added on my Rep Gabbard..

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=226276

[sheshe2]

61. Thanks for your add, Cha.

I knew you had posted it all before. I did not have time to search.

[Cha]

63. Yours was an important one,

imo.. evidently Gabbard didn't want anything negative to come out at any Hawaii debates.

So now she's running for Prez and it's getting plastered all over the place.. that and More!

[sheshe2]

65. It's coming out.

Yes indeed, Cha.

What is with that everchanging streak in her hair? First it is white, then light brown???

Oh, my.

[Cha]

66. I have no idea.. don't

have a tv and don't really look at her pics. First I've heard of it.

[sheshe2]

67. ;)

[Cha]

68. great..

:Smirk:!

[Hekate]

45. She would if she could...

After I read the in-depth bio done on her in her home state I got alarmed. But my husband was already suspicious, as he reads face and body language more intuitively than I do, and thinks everything about her reads false. Since I shared the Hawai'i journalism with him, he just calls her the Manchurian Candidate.

[Catamount]

8. Beautifully summed up!

Thank you!
I really enjoyed your post and having watched it, your conclusions matched mine perfectly....and refreshed my memory after....lets say a few too many refreshments!
K&R
Also love your commitment and your clever furbaby!

[peggysue2]

14. Thanks, Catamount

And yes, our newest addition (now 6 months old) is a very clever puppy. She knows class when she sniffs it.

[Pachamama]

9. I completely agree and had a similar reaction to the debate last night

I hate the format that CNN did and the questions were all designed to have them battling each other. The circular firing squad format and tearing at Obama era policies pissed me off. If as much time was going to be spent discussing healthcare plans, how about they started with focusing on what works and is great and how everyone will defend what is awesome and fight what Trump and the GOP are doing RIGHT NOW in trying in court to get rid of existing condition coverage.

Also - everything is useless to be talking about if Trump isn't beaten, we don't keep the majority in Congress and we don't take the Senate.

I have been hoping for almost 9 months now that we will have a Harris/Biden or Biden/Harris ticket. I was disgusted at the first debate at her unleashing on Biden on the busing - it may have given her a temporary boost - but I thought then and still think that would backfire on her. Last night she did not do well and I think she not only looked unprepared for the attack from Tulsi Gabbard and seemed rattled and didn't do a good job of responding. I think she is going to have a struggle in future if she can't address some of her record as AG in CA.

Biden I think did well and his numbers will continue to stay strong. I think that they may even go up.

The first night I feel that it was Warren's and Mayor Pete's night. I think after last night's debate its really down to Biden, Buttigieg, Harris, Sanders, and Warren. I think DiBlasio is a jerk and Delaney is GOP light. They and the 0% should plan to go away and support their party - even if that means just being quiet.

Castro can't win with his argument of decriminalizing immigration. It would have been nice to see his voice moving forward and representing the Latino view - but I think he will do better leaving the race and supporting the nominee and party in future and maybe even have a cabinet position in future or run for another office in his home state. Him or Beto should run for Senate in Texas.

I like Amy Klobuchar - but I want to see her remain as the Senator from Minnesota. She should focus on that and supporting the nominee and party and keeping the Senate seat.

Same for Bennet - I actually like him and think that he is a good representative of the moderate liberals - but lets keep the Senate seat he is in and have him support the nominee and party.

Bullock is also a good moderate - I wish he would run in future for the Montana Senate Seat.

Hickenlooper - he should focus on becoming the other moderate democrat (or DINO) Senator of Colorado.

Booker will never have the nomination nor the VP bid - he should focus on supporting the Democratic Party and to be keeping his senate seat in NJ.

Gillibrand - loved her reference to Clorox in the Oval Office - I still will never forgive her for Franken and she should focus on supporting the democratic cause and doing her job in the NY Senate seat.

Jay Inslee - He is the environmental/climate change go-to guy. I hope he will either have a seat in the future cabinet of the democratic President - or maybe even take a Senate seat for Washington when either of the Senators retire.

Yang - I would like to see him actually kept in the discussion too because of some of the points he brings up....especailly in the face of AI and the implications that has. Its nice to see an Asian American in the mix. Maybe he can run for some other seat in Congress or Senate in future that is in Republican hands.

Williamson - I love some of the things she says - until she gets too New Age - its one thing if she was talking to me and we went and did some Ayahuasca in the Amazon and we could be Jaguars under the stars running through the jungle and talking about our dreams for the future. But she has no chance. I hope that somehow she can make change through her writings and speeches after this.

[peggysue2]

15. It appears Kamala has opened Pandora's box with the . . .

'let's reach back into history routine,' rather than focusing on the present and future. I was rather surprised at Harris' weak defense of her own healthcare proposal. And yes, I agree she did sound unprepared for Gabbard's attack. I think most people were surprised at the brutal nature of that attack line. But now that it's out there, Harris will be required to address it.

I find a lot of this sad because I like a lot of these candidates, good solid Democrats who have worked their butts off for their constituencies. These primaries always turn into meat grinders and that's unfortunate because we need to have our eventual nominee sound enough to run in the General. I know the general argument is: better to be bruised and battered during the primary than waiting for the GE. But there's a limit. One of those limits is the critical comments about President Obama's Administration simply to score points against Joe Biden. That verges on suicidal. I kept hearing complaints about 'framing things like the Republicans.' The biggest 'frame' of all is painting the Obama Administration as the worst evah.

In any case, not being able to 'watch' the debates doesn't seem to have been all that bad.

[True Blue American]

27. When you attack

Another person for a past long gone why be shocked yours will be brought up?

[peggysue2]

42. Exactly!

Yet Kamala Harris did not sound as if she'd anticipated the incoming criticism on her own past. Anymore than Cory Booker sounded as if he believed his attacks wouldn't/shouldn't inspire critiques on his own history and missteps. Again, I couldn't watch the debate but Booker sounded genuinely aggrieved when Biden mentioned Booker's Newark history, not all of it good.

The personal sniping really needs to end if we expect to win 2020.

[Cha]

57. Mahalo for your perspective, Pachamama!

One thing.. Biden won't be VP again, I betcha!

And, This..

Also - everything is useless to be talking about if Trump isn't beaten, we don't keep the majority in Congress and we don't take the Senate.

Main thing get rid of trump, and keep the House.. and Please let us Win the Senate!

[Hortensis]

11. Thanks. That is an interesting view that mostly expands on mine

and a fun image.

The only thing I raised my eyebrows at was the notion that Biden would give Gabbard any position. Imo, she's...an odd peg who fits nowhere, refuses to play ball, and is about as reliable as a badly cracked bat, a living mixed metaphor. Even Bernie Sanders refused to have her when she tried to join his campaign, in spite of bringing impressive creds of taking public a really nasty and terminal squabble on the DNC. If she loses her congressional seat, even with her family backing she may have nowhere to go in government, except perhaps the Republican Party.

Fwiw, I don't care right now about candidates taking positions on whether crossing the border illegally should be a felony or a misdemeanor, or either depending. That's because congress is going to have to completely overhaul our border and immigration laws, policies and personnel after Trump/Repubs are out. A Democratic-controlled congress is going to have to make them sensible, just, and humane and write them tight and detailed to make as sure as possible that they cannot be twisted by evil people to claim crimes against humanity are "legal." And we know they all agree on that, so we're good.

[peggysue2]

16. Not suggesting he should offer her anything

Like you, I think she really is something of an oddball. But I just can't figure out her game strategy in all this. She's not going to be the nominee, so what is she looking for? Maybe some additional votes in Hawaii where I understand she's facing a primary challenge?

We shall see. back!

[Hortensis]

24. Exactly the same here. We're all odd ducks,

but some are odder than others. (Which brings on the image of the three of you listening and your neighbors wondering. )

[peggysue2]

43. LOL!!

I'm almost certain there were more than a few neighbors peeking out the windows, shaking their weary heads.

Oh well.

[Cha]

17. Brilliant, PeggySue!

You 3 were determined to see that debate one way or another.

Here's one poll that's out post debate..

Link to tweet

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287224447

How long were you without power? A week ago Sunday we were without for 2 hours, and I was freaking a little because, the store in the beach town I took the bus to, was Closed.. my natural food store. But I survived!

Mahalo for your interesting analysis from the sitting car.. so many are determined to take down VP Biden they grabbed onto anything they could.. it was almost comical.

[peggysue2]

18. Thanks, girlfriend!

As it turned out, we caught most of the debate, even with a bathroom break apiece and running Kiera out to the back yard. Such a good puppy; no accidents in Mom's car

The outage was about an hour and a half but once the power was restored none of my electronics worked. Even my cell phone was funky. I assumed it was an area problem from the original power down. Turned out it was the fiber optics box and router that blew when the power was restored. So for TV, computer and phones, we were down 36 hours. Drove us crazy. Technician came in this afternoon and switched out the fried parts (which were old) with new and we're good to go.

As far as the debates and parsing minutia, I'm flabbergasted that Biden is now being blasted for joking with Kamala Harris: "You going to go easy on me, kid?"

Were these critics born humorless or is it trait learned over time??? For crying out loud. They don't seem to get that all this whining only scores points for Biden, no one else.

Btw, those numbers look good. I'll be interested to see what Cory Booker's aggressive performance brings down the pike in the next few days. I wasn't impressed but I imagine some will respond to that style.

We shall see!

[Cha]

20. Oh I see.. 36 hours.. that sounds

like a freak accident. That would be bad for me!

lol.. ".. that parsing minutia.. " is what I meant by grabbing onto anything to bring him down.. so serious.. like it's going to help anybody but Biden. So far it's had the opposite effect.

Which is greatly appreciated!

More good news is all the backlash I've seen so far from Democratic leaders who are telling that they don't think it's a good idea to go after President Obama. I would think that would help one candidate and that's Joe Biden.

Debate Backlash: Many Democrats Say Criticizing Obama's Legacy Isn't A Good Idea

“I think attacking President Obama is bad policy and bad politics,” Sen. Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut said Thursday. Of Biden’s tenure as vice president, Blumenthal added: “He owns it, for better or worse. But he should be proud of it.”

Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois also suggested the Democratic race should be marked by a more hands-off approach toward Obama.

“You can disagree with him, and I have, but the bottom line is ... he did an extraordinary job, and he should be given that recognition by those that are running for the presidency.”

Link to tweet

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/biden-obama-2020_n_5d4326a6e4b0ca604e2edddd

Yes we will!

[peggysue2]

21. The criticism of the Obama years is just plain stupid

I read his afternoon that President Obama holds a 97% approval rating with Democratic voters. This is not a person to diss if you want to win an election.

Meanwhile, we're dealing with a mentally compromised crook who continues to squat in the WH and spit on our Constitution. And President Obama is under fire???

Makes. No. Sense.

[Cha]

22. I read that 97% approval, too..

and had to do a double take. I didn't know it was that high.

Probably 'cause we all have had it way past up to here with the monster in charge

It may have unintended consequences for those hoping to bring down Biden through pounding on their Admin.

Don't they give equal time to all the accomplishments they made in spite of unprecedented Obstruction?

[emmaverybo]

23. Interesting, insightful, and fun read. I really like a puppy who shares my take on things.

[wyldwolf]

25. I find little to disagree with here. But I'll say this...

When the primary season was still new, the narrative among many on the left was Biden was too old to run. Now some on the left are looking for some sort of justifcation for that view.

Biden appeared shaky when several of candidates were piling on? Of course he did. Wouldn't you? Didn't Kamala Harris look like a fumbling deer in the headlights under the same circumstances? And she's "only" 54.

Warren, no spring chicken herself, and Sanders (also old, right?) glares and points and waves their arms when flustered and challenged and can deflect with lofty "viva revolution" rhetoric,

We have some here saying "if Biden can't fight off 3-4 other Democrats assailing him, how can he take on Trump?" That's an asanine comparison. On a debate stage against ONE other person, Biden wouldn't be catching it from all sides.

And to anyone who for some odd reason believes Trump could take Biden to task, go back and watch the Trump/Clinton debates. He was/is a fumbling oaf with zero grasp of history and policy. Clinton sliced him up. Biden (or any of the candidates or any one on DU reading this) would do the same. Easily.

[Skya Rhen]

35. When debating Trump, Biden has so much material to use - the economy Trump inherited; Russia;

constant lies; racial attacks; foreign policy blunders relating to NATO, North Korea, China; obstruction of justice; fascism; climate change denial; denigrating certain U.S. cities; tax returns; undoing Obama's policies, etc...


There is no way Trump can withstand that debate. I actually believe that he will make an excuse to bypass any debates and hold mega mass rallies instead. Seriously.

[Lulu KC]

36. Biden stayed cool

That differentiates him from the rest. While I haven't made up my mind yet, every debate I'm liking him more. I didn't expect this!

Someone posted a clip of him at the 2016 convention yesterday (totally lost track of where) that showed his fight. He used the word malarkey. As far as appearance goes, he has changed quite a bit since that speech and I think part of it is that he's lost weight. He has a bit of that gaunt look. But this whole focusing on his age is totally ageist. And petty. I'm not even going to say a thing about people on the stage with false eyelashes. Not a word.

[Skya Rhen]

38. +1000

[Cha]

71. lol.. Good post, Lulu KC

Thank you!

[Cha]

74. +1!

[True Blue American]

26. Thank you for that perspective.

You pretty well described what I watched. I did not think Biden was shaky. I was darned impressed how Biden handled the gang up attacks. With his poker face while being attacked, his comebacks he could handle Trump’s insults with ease.

I was not a bit impressed with the attacks from years ago.

As for Michael Bennett he was on Morning Joe. He is a very,level,sensible man who agrees with Joe on fixing the ACA first. He really went way up on the list for me. I could support him.

[Hortensis]

70. Bennet's someone I could support also. I'd prefer farther

left advocating bigger steps, but in the end it's all about what can be delivered, competence and trustworthiness, not the rhetoric.

He agrees with a strong majority of Democrats on advancing the ACA.

I've always questioned the judgement and motives behind joining the Republicans' effort to destroy the ACA -- instead of committing to completing it. As for then starting over from scratch, when we could, assuming we could, claiming to reject an "incremental" approach!, bizarre. So I really like that he has no part of that, including to opportunistically adopt a popular brand name.

[Beringia]

28. Nice analysis

[stonecutter357]

32. K&R

[world wide wally]

37. Something I haven't seen mentioned here:

The CNN moderator asked a question unlike any I had ever heard in a debate that invited the other candidates to attack Biden.
(Paraphrasing) "Joe Biden is leading in the polls. Why should you be polling higher than he is?"
That was a perfect spot to throw it back in their faces, but they all took the bait.
That was the biggest disappointment of the night for me.

[Hekate]

44. Thank you! Very refreshing!

[Cha]

72. KICK!

[Cha]

73. KICK!

[Cha]

75. ..

[Cha]

76. KICK!

[Cha]

77. ..

[Cha]

78. ..