This country exists on collective bargaining and compromise.

[Prosper]

If you are a lefty and you compromise then you are a centrist. If you are a centrist and you compromise then you are a righty. I don’t want anybody representing me that has already compromised before the negotiations start. Obama is above and beyond a champion. I can still hear his monumental 2004 convention speech. And it is unbelievable that he proudly and determinedly marched into office in the midst of one of the greatest calamities of our country. I have always liked Joe Biden. He is the original owner of 1967 300HP 350CI Corvette. I love Corvettes and I used to manufacture and sell kits that raised and moved forward the Vette manual seats. My wife and people shorter than 5’7” have to look through the steering wheel to drive the older Vettes. Obama and Biden are two of my favorite people. But they are representative of a legacy. I don’t want anybody for president that is working from a compromised position and all of their legislation resulted from compromise. I want somebody that wants to right the wrongs of sixty years of concessions to the right. A lower working class family of today has approximately the same wages as the same class sixty years ago. I want somebody that knows the difference between shareholder and stakeholder for President. I want somebody that knows that living wages for the lower class means they will be spending our country into prosperity. I don’t want somebody that comes from a position that will have to give up some of what we have already won in order to compromise a law into existence.

[Hortensis]

1. You imagine you want collectivism. But do you know what that means?

Attitude toward individual rights is the main huge difference between idealists who move to the Sanders left and those of the more mainstream left.

Communal thinking accepts the sacrifice of individual rights necessary for collectivist solutions that elevate the good of the many above the individual. Sanders hints that under democratic socialism they'd be minor and make America a better and happier people. But are you a communal thinker?

The capitalism-based New Deal and Europe's capitalism-based social democracy nations all protect individual rights. And are proven to work and work well when not subverted.

But, no matter how much he doesn't talk about it, democratic socialism's communal ownership solutions require sacrifice of some individualism. Are you happy to sacrifice not only some of your own rights, but your children's and their children's, confident that this giant experiment would be better for all if not for each?

Note that ALL the other nations that tried this experiment have failed, and most have morphed into authoritarian dictatorships and economic and social ruin in the process. When LW is the only government, RW power-seekers join it.

As for choosing Sanders as a leader, most who have haven't even begun to think ahead to where what they're following could take them. Or even to understand WHAT they're following.

The dominating passion fueling Sanders' mixed socialist-populist movement is its populist members. Populism is the big destroyer of democracies, and in this era Putin's injecting jet fuel into those of many nations he's trying to bring down.

For Sanders' populists, opposing the stable mainstream is the big goal in itself, not what comes after. And a lot of them have a strong strain of social conservatism combined with their economic leftism, not really compatible with egalitarian universalist solutions that would theoretically benefit everyone equally, such as democratic socialism.

Which means the socialist supporters might find their movement subverted and diverted before it even got to the starting line of this idealistic new world. Subverted to what? Understand, Putin's trying to join our our LW and RW populist movements into a destructive force. And without question some on our own right are also.

Maybe read a lot of the posts that have become hostile to DEMOCRATS also, insisting DEMOCRATS as well as Republicans are the joint problem that must be overcome, with that in mind. I believe Putin's destabilization's and undermining of belief in our liberal democracy is doing far too well and that socialist aspirations are assisting much stronger forces.

[Prosper]

2. Never said or intimated anything different than how are government

Hortensis said: “Note that ALL the other nations that tried this experiment have failed”
I don’t believe that and you need to show your source for that charge about “this experiment”.

Additionally you need to cite existing operating examples of the system you describe.

[Blue_true]

19. If you don't believe all that have tried a strain of socialism HAVEN'T failed,

name one that hasn't. Please don't mention social democracies, they are capitalism variants.

[brooklynite]

3. We don't negotiate in campaigns...

We negotiate when we actually get elected. Taking an extreme position in the campaign so you have room to "negotiate" runs the risk that you end up losing.

[Prosper]

4. Nothing extreme about correcting the inhumanity of

thousands of people dying early and suffering more because of lack of healthcare and medicine. Nothing extreme about wanting to change the laws that put millions of people in poverty. Nothing extreme about wanting to change the economy to provide living wages. Nothing extreme about ridding the system of the laws that promote shareholder taking the money and running in stake holder factories that support community. Nothing extreme to most people about respecting human rights.

[brooklynite]

5. What IS extreme is re-electing Donald Trump...

...Your assertion that MfA as opposed to a more moderate initial step isn't extreme is a matter to take up with the voters.

[Prosper]

8. No, take it up with the people facing death because they can't afford medicine.

While the upper incomes rise the lower incomes shrunk. Besides not having money to buy medicine our government has let the costs of medicines grow.

[brooklynite]

10. And re-electing Donald Trump wouldn't make their situation worse?

[Prosper]

11. What makes you think Radical Bernie can't beat radical Trump.

[brooklynite]

12. 40 years of political experience...

Trump and the Democratic nominee will each start with 40-45% of their base vote. We're fighting over the remaining 10-15%, which, ESPECIALLY in PA, MI and WI are middle of the road centrists. These people are unhappy with politicians in general (a major reason Trump won), and they're not looking at new/more Government programs as the solution to their problems.

Sanders advocates claim there's an untapped pool of non-voters on the left, but they didn't find them in the 2016 Primary, and they didn't find them in the 2018 mid-terms when we won back the House with moderate candidates in suburban swing districts, not safe-Blue seats. I know first-term House members who think that, with Sanders as the nominee, we'll not only lose, but we'll lose the House as well.

Now, if you don't want to believe me, perhaps you should believe.....Sanders voters? Half of his 2016 Primary pool has chosen a different candidate this time.

[Prosper]

13. You probably weren't born yet when I was a grievance

commissioner in the United Mine Workers. We had a nice run and then in the late 70s it all started to change. By about 1983 I gave up figuring the country was too complacent to stand up against all the wrongs. Then when Bernie announced I couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t believe anybody could announce being a Democratic Socialist and be around the next day. Well people were and are fed up. Tired of 40 years of stagnant wages, dying early and suffering more denied health care. Well, they believed Trump and his lies of lots of good paying jobs and make America Great again. They see his lies and no are suffering more and they are not going to be satisfied with incremental centralism. They are fed up and they want to be recognized.

[brooklynite]

14. And the Democratic Socialist has half as much political support in 2020 because.....?

[Blue_true]

20. You paint your position in colors that NO democrat that I know disagrees with.

Where many diverge from you is they don't paint the choices in an either/or scenario. History has rather clearly shown that lasting change takes place in bits and pieces, not revolutions.

[Prosper]

22. FDR

[Blue_true]

26. FDR left millions of American citizens out of the New Deal.

The reason why was it was politically too difficult for him to fight for what was right. Even with his many warts, LBJ is a far better example, if you insist on holding up one to try to buttress your claims.

[Prosper]

28. To this day citizens of any shape size or color are getting life saving money because

of some of his programs. Just SS alone is enough to canonize FDR and nobody comes remotely close.

[Blue_true]

29. LBJ expanded SS to fully cover African Americans

and LBJ did Medicare. FDR's SS was very restrictive, as were many of his other plans.

When you give thanks tonight, thank god for LBJ.

[Prosper]

32. LBJ is a hero of mine. He is responsible for two unforgettable memories for me.

First was when I saw him visit my college in May of 64. He reassured us the country was sound. The second burnt in my mind LBJ memory was in 1969 walking through two floors of soldiers in Bethesda Naval Hospital with all four of what was left of their limbs strung up on cables to keep their burnt skin from touching anything. I was in the service and that inspired me. Later on we learned that lies by our government probably put a lot of guys in that hospital. Does that make me think less of LBJ, no. I know he did what he had to do. There also is no demeaning FDR for being a product of his times.

[Blue_true]

33. Good point, Vietnam and his role in it has led to LBJ not being

fully recognized for the visionary that he was. But maybe his belief that we could militarily solve any problem was common for men of his era (except for McGovern, who was a war hero who actually fought).

[Prosper]

34. Exactly! LBJ and FDR did the best they could.

Here is some entertaining eye opening reading about Billy Sol Estes operating in the LBJ arena.

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKestes.htm

[Fresh_Start]

27. Great Depression

[Blue_true]

30. What is that supposed to mean?

Millions of Americans were left out.

[UniteFightBack]

6. You can get some things through or nothing at all. nt

[Prosper]

7. I would suppose the same people that thought Hillary would

Last edited Wed Jan 15, 2020, 01:16 AM - Edit history (1)

obliterate Trump in 2016 are the same people saying Biden with essentially the same platform will beat Trump in 2020. And all the polls were saying Hillary would beat Trump in 2016. Bernie in spite of a heart attack and being demeaned by both Democrats and Republicans and ignored by MSM is alive and gaining. One of the reasons is below.

“The wages of low-wage workers fared even worse, falling 5 percent from 1979 to 2013. In contrast, the hourly wages of high-wage workers rose 41 percent.”


https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

Bernie is only addressing all the failings of the last 60 years. He in no way is trying to eliminate our government.

[ArtTownsend]

15. +1

[Prosper]

9. In 2016 a centrist ran against a radical.

[UniteFightBack]

17. Oh really is that all you think happened...a centrist ran against a radical..I mean LOL. nt

[TidalWave46]

16. This really doesn't make sense.

It's also an incomplete thought.

"If you are a lefty and you compromise then you are a centrist. If you are a centrist and you compromise then you are a righty."

[Blue_true]

21. It is a very transparent attemp to leave only one narrative as a possibility.

To hell with the reality that lots of centrists vote for more left democrats because the alternative is not acceptable. POC that I know tend to be more socially conservative than White democrats, yet over and over they support more liberal platforms because the alternative is just not acceptable.

[Blue_true]

18. You conveniently left out a choice that many good democrats make constantly.

You seemed more intent on pushing a narrative.

What you completely left out, but what is a reality.

"If you are a centrist or left-center and compromise, then you are a lefty". That is a reality for millions of democrats. I have fully supported Democratic Party nominees that were to the left of me because the alternative was unacceptable.

You talk about the country being built on compromise, yet you seem to be painting a selective narrative.

[Prosper]

23. The bottom line is thousands of people die earlier and suffer more because of lack of healthcare

and medicine. That people pay premiums but can’t afford to use insurance and are forced into cheaper plans with higher deductibles that they still can’t afford to use simply subsidized insurance for those that can can afford it. The United Mine Workers of America, had 100% medical care for workers and wives and children. Coverage extended for worker and spouse until death. A pension plan comparable to Social Security. It was financed through profits from their labor. What happened? How did the country get to thousands of people dying every month from lack of healthcare? ? ?

[Prosper]

24. Not so. I am saying it is ludicrous to enter from an already reduced position

promising to not ask for only a little more. Like saying please elect us we will ask for very little. Who will the Democratics that can’t afford medicine or their healthcare insurance vote for? Trump that is lying promising healthcare with no exclusions?

[Blue_true]

25. People are on to Trump's lies about healthcare.

That is why republicans got beaten in 2018. Healthcare is going to be big in this coming election and Truml has a lot to answer for, promises won't cut it, he has a record.

You keep setting your mark on things that all democrats agree on, low cost highly effective healthcare, income security for every American. I have yet to see any candidate in the primary who has not talked about or actually (in the case of Biden) fought for those things. The issue that I have with Bernie and his supporters is that they pillor very good democrats, while holding up "solutions" that have not worked. I would love to see the USA have a social democracy version of healthcare and income security, but I see nothing in what Bernie and his followers are advocating that will get us there over any timeframe. I do see REAL progress that a couple of Bernie's primary rivals have made or been an integral part of, progress that will get us to an ideal state versus never getting there with Bernie.

I am not questioning the decency of Bernie followers, they clearly are mostly decent people that seem to care deeply about injustice and societal inequity, in particular the ones here on DU. What I feel they do is fail to see that other people that disagree strongly with them care as much about solving those problems.

[Prosper]

31. Probably the most significant thing and it could be a world changer

is Bernie’s Wall Street transaction tax. If instituted and policed it can do two incredibly signification actions. It addresses non productive trading. Directly it could provide significant funds for healthcare and education costs. Indirectly it could direct money to productive jobs producing investing. Bernie doesn’t talk enough about taxing the trillions of dollars that the Republicans legalized a way out of productive trading. See Phil Gramm. He purposely removed hope from the working classes. He slid through at the last minute the dastardly CFMA of 2000. It destroyed the potential for good paying jobs and literally ruined our economy and future. Bernie doesn’t talk much about it but the non productive trading tax could rebuild our economy.