if you want to defend biden, please stop, stop stop attacking lucy flores

[unblock]

honestly i have no idea if she's telling the truth, i have no idea if it's all a setup, but *that doesn't matter* and here's why:

joe biden has a very, very well-established reputation of being an affectionate, hugging kind of guy, and frankly it's been a major part of his charm and success in the political sphere. the vast majority of people who come into contact with a famous politician are thrilled to make some physical contact, whether a handshake or a hug or a kiss on the cheek or whatever. and 99.9% of the time there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

let's assume for the moment that lucy flores's allegation is a pure 100% set-up. maybe she made the whole story up, or she clearly consented to it at the time and now is singing a completely different tune. shame on her then, but as far as what *we* should do about it, *it just doesn't matter*.

the thing is, if we go about this by attacking flores, biden will face a steady steam of person after person after person saying very similar things -- because biden has had such a long history of pressing the flesh (as virtually all successful politicians do) that it's a guarantee that more people will come out of the woodwork -- and sure, maybe some of *those* will be set-ups as well, or maybe they won't or maybe they're see an opportunity to get 15 minutes of fame. or maybe they'll decide biden's no longer their favorite candidate so why not jump on this opportunity to trash him.


so how does this play out? if we attack flores, then we have to attack the next accuser and the next one and the next one. and there will be a next one and a next one, *especially* if flores is a set-up.

does that look good for us? does that look good for biden?

*NO!!*

i just makes biden look like someone who did something wrong and then is trying to cover it up and run from a scandal and then it just becomes bigger and bigger with each drip, drip, drip and finally he's toast.

if you care about biden, if you want to support him *do not attack flores*.

and *especially*, for crying out loud, do *not* attack flores with tired right-wing sexist tropes like "she said did it with another guy, so she must be lying about biden!" i can't believe the crap i've seen on du on this topic.


instead, defend biden by saying what he's done has been well-received 99.9% of the time.
say that he's got a strong record of sticking up for women and women's rights.
say that he's a great listener and is more than capable of modifying his behavior.
say that he never wanted or wants anyone to feel uncomfortable.
say that he thinks it's great that women are speaking up and pushing back and he wants to be part of the change for the better.

and of course, say that the media can stfu until they hound donald fraud out of office for being a million times worse.


but please don't attack women who talk about men touching them inappropriately, making them feel uncomfortable, or getting in their personal space.

if that's all you got, you're doing it wrong.

[JaneQPublic]

1. Echoes of the worst part of Bill Clinton's defense:

Language surrounding the term, "Bimbo eruptions."

[blue cat]

2. I believe she is doing a huge disservice to the me too movement

No can do.

[barbtries]

8. agree.

as well as to Joe Biden and the party. Republicans do the ratfucking, not democrats.
first and probably last time I've commented about this bullshit "scandal."

[hlthe2b]

19. me too...

and after giving her more than a week of "benefit-of-the-doubt," watching her interviews, her comments, her body language, I find her lacking in sincerity and suspect in motivations.

I won't apologize for that. All she had to do is tell Biden she doesn't want contact, but no, she waits 5 years to hit him just prior to launching his campaign--and after admitting she doesn't want him to run and that she has supported Sanders. If that isn't suspicious to ANYONE else, then I truly don't know what to say to you.

Her "benefit-of-the-doubt" has expired.

[Thekaspervote]

27. And.. when biden was there boosting her campaign... where were the complaints? Self serving

[Cha]

24. Those were my exact thoughts..

the "no can do" part.. for obvious reasons. I don't believe her.

More like exposing her..

Event organizer: Biden, accuser were never alone together

“I have thoroughly reviewed photographic documentation from the event, and spoken to nearly every principle in attendance, as well as staff associated with the event. To the best of our recollection, at no time were Lucy Flores and Vice President Biden alone,” Henry Munoz, co-founder of Latino Victory Project, said in a statement.

“Lucy is my good friend and a good friend to Latino Victory, which has strongly supported her political career. I also firmly believe that women need to be supported and heard and that there is a reckoning in our culture that is long overdue. Vice President Biden is also my close friend, to the degree that he presided over my own marriage. These are both individuals that I love and respect,” he said.

“Yet at no time were these two leaders alone together and I, and the organization I cofounded and those in attendance, do not believe that circumstances support allegations that such an event took place,” he added.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=44281

Link to tweet

Vice President Joe Biden takes a selfie with Nevada Lt. Governor Democratic candidate Lucy Flores during a rally in support of Nevada Democrats at the Plumbers and Pipefitters Joint UA Local 525 in Las Vegas Saturday, Nov. 1, 2014. (AP Photo/Las Vegas Sun, L.E. Baskow) (Photo: L.E. Baskow, AP)

And, there is evidence of her trying to smear Hillary in 2017.. so I'm going with Vice President Biden's statements.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[ProudMNDemocrat]

3. What photos I have posted is not attacking Ms. Flores................

But merely asking questions as to who she allowed to violate her "personal space" or touch her on the shoulder.

[Eliot Rosewater]

4. When Joe is destroyed they will start again on Kamala, then Liz, etc.

Democrats have two choices

1. stop the nazis from destroying the human race

2 worry about hair sniffing and let the human race die

Has Joe acknowledged it is wrong to do that stuff, I will assume he has, then this is OVER for FUCKS SAKE

The SAME bunch that FUCKED over Hillary, doing it AGAIN

[still_one]

6. Here was Joe Biden's response

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128744544

Ms. Flores has refused to accept that response, and said she wants nothing less than an apology from him.

The fact is, that was his response. For those that don't accept that response, then don't vote for him

It is that simple

The voters will decide

[hedda_foil]

17. Of course you did.

You used the picture to infer blame to another candidate who she no longer supports. I don't know what she's doing and I don't plan to vote for either of the two older gentlemen but it's been more than enough, afaic.

It's very mild stuff compared to what the Republicans will be using to smear our candidates, in any case.

[comradebillyboy]

21. She no longer supports Bernie? That's news to me.

[hedda_foil]

22. Is it?

Actually, I read t right here on DU just a couple of days ago that she quit over the harrassment of women in the Latinos for Bernie 2016 campaign arm (which, afaik, is the only part of that campaign where such behavior was reported). So she's consistent at least -- though her complaint now is a tempest in a teapot that I'm sure Biden can easily get past. He's dealt with much worse in his life and career and he's still going strong.

Please note that neither Bernie nor Biden is my favorite candidate, though if either of them gets the nomination, I'll definitely vote for him. I don't have a horse in this race but the endless brouhaha over this notascandal nothingburger has become maddening.

[comradebillyboy]

23. 'the endless brouhaha over this notascandal nothingburger has become maddening'

I agree 100% with that sentiment.

[David__77]

5. Criticizing her isn't required to see her assertions as not disqualifying to Biden's campaign.

...

[still_one]

7. I agree, and in the end it will be the voters that will decide

[David__77]

15. Yes, they will.

I see this thing as a sort of potential trap, or set of potential traps:

- "Going after" Flores. I think that Flores' narrative may strike many people as over the top. While I can understand that it may be a relatively easy matter to criticize her narrative or background, doing so, in my opinion, may occur to people as harsh or insensitive.
- Waging a general campaign against "me too." I think that many people think something along the lines of "me too has gone too far," and might welcome statements that invalidate the concept of "believe women" as a general practice. While I think that might be a reasonable position to assert, doing so without a lot of clarity and thought might stir up a big ideological debate that might not lead to a favorable conclusion in this election cycle.
- Attributing Flores' actions to others (Sanders, for instance). This is another way of "going after" Flores - attempting to impeach her statements and imply that she lacked self-determination in making her statements.

She asserted that he touched her shoulders and kissed her head, and she added some words about her experience. She asserted that Biden was responsible for her experience. Her description of what Biden did doesn't strike me as problematic to his ability to be president.

Personally I don't like the idea of society establishing consensus that no one should be touched without verbally affirming consent first. I also don't like the idea of people being surprised and uncomfortable in response to being touched. I hope that people can achieve a lot of intuition and empathy in practice, which might prevent a lot of trouble.

Also, I like Biden. I think he would make a good president.

[unblock]

10. Exactly. Put the allegations in reasonable context

Politicians, particularly at the federal level, completely legitimately, are put in contexts where things like hugs are not just perfectly normal but expected and well-received 99.9% of the time.

Out of that large sample, there may be a small handful of cases where the contact was awkward or where the politician misread a physical cue and hugged someone who didn't want a hug.

It shouldn't ever happen in a perfect world, but no process is error-proof and sometimes it happens.

The important thing is to monitor and improve the process.

And also to note Biden is so much better than Donald fraud the creep.

[lark]

9. You are now the arbiter of "correctness"?

Funny how Bernie's toleration and refusal to do anything about his staffs' sexual harassment of the young females on staff isn't mentioned. Why do you care so much for Flores but not for them?

[unblock]

11. Ooh, posting an op gets me an impressive title? Who knew?

Sorry my op wasn't broad enough for you.

All women should be taken seriously, especially when they make a claim about harassment. That includes the women on Bernie's staff.

And for the record, I'm undecided. I think any of our candidates would make a great president, including Biden, including, Bernie, and including all the others.

[namahage]

13. Flores knew contemporaneously about the harassment

and the “cover up” but not only did not speak up at the time but also attempted to make it about how poor Bernie’s campaign was the real victim here.

[ucrdem]

12. She didn't have to do this publicly, but she did.

So she's going to get public scrutiny. That's how it works.

[Demsrule86]

18. She is sent to take out Biden. Won't work. She is a Sanders surrogate sent by Sirota.

She is a traitor to women who have suffered sexual attack and a damned liar.

[LongtimeAZDem]

14. I disagree; a BS claim is a BS claim, and it has to be called out

[Vinnie From Indy]

16. What do you define as "attacking"?

Could you be more specific?

Is saying you think Flores is an opportunist and less than credible an attack?

[PDittie]

35. Yes

[Demsrule86]

20. She shouldn't use me too for political reasons. I hope she comes to understand

the pain her politically motivated lies have inflicted upon survivors of sexual assault and the me too movement.

[BlueFlorida]

25. Lucy Flores is a campaign operative for Bernie Sanders

and a director of Our Revolution.

Her charges should not be confused with the #metoo movement. Biden was not her boss nor was he offering her a part in a movie or a play. Biden didn't and couldn't have used his power to change anything in Lucy Flores' life or career.

What she did was asinine, using the #metoo movement for nefarious purposes and she should not be immune from attack. She is not a #metoo survivor like women who were raped or assaulted or had to endure an oppressive environment for months or years.

Lucy Flores should come clean about what happened that made her release the story and then tell several versions of it. There is absolutely no way she would have done something like this without clearing it with the campaign higher ups.

If one behaves like Karl Rove or Roger Stone, one should be prepared for getting in the cross-hairs and then not hide behind the #metoo sympathies and protections.

[guillaumeb]

26. And many will ask, "why do these women not come forward?". eom

Edited to add:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211977815

[unblock]

29. it's unreal seeing people here doing exactly what they'd flip out if republicans did it.

it's all the more astounding when biden himself is handling it quite well and may yet end up getting buried because his supporters are turning a molehill into a mountain.

biden said his recollection is different, which is perfect, because it creates room for him not doing anything improper without invalidating what she said or experienced. he also added that it's important to listen to women and to support them, something that his supporters don't appear to be able to handle.

silencing women isn't a good idea, ihmo.

[guillaumeb]

37. Very true.

I take Biden at his word that he does not feel that he was behaving improperly. But that means that the alleged aggressor decides what constitutes aggressive or improper behavior.

[unblock]

38. at least it recognizes that the woman has her own perspective.

he can only speak to his own perspective and intentions, which certainly matter, but of course her perspective and experience matters as well.

i don't think he meant to imply that his lack of improper intent settles the matter.

his statement could have been improved slightly, because while it left this open, it didn't make it explicit.

[guillaumeb]

39. Agreed.

But in the situation where one person touches another, the perceptions and reactions of each party to the touch might differ.

Perhaps it would be better for people to simply ask before touching.

For me, I never hug a person who is not a family member unless they initiate the hug.

[treestar]

28. That's rather unfair

Merely making such a claim is supposed to make someone immune? Like they have to be right and have to be telling the truth just because? You're trying to hamstring his defenders, just because.

[unblock]

30. there are many ways to *defend* him without *attacking* her.

her allegation is extremely mild. there's plenty of room to say there may have been a difference of interpretation as to exactly what happened or that in any event what she said wasn't anything near as bad as a fraction of the crap donald fraud's been accused of, or hell, bragged about. or that biden is the kind of guy who listens to women and will make a slight adjustment in his behavior and let's move on.

but shutting her down the way every other woman who ever complains about male behavior gets shut down is beneath the standards of democrats and du, imho.

ooh, she let this guy touch her once, she must be lying about objecting to that guy touching her. how are we ok with that kind of argument??

[LongtimeAZDem]

32. No. The last time we let allegations go unchallenged, we lost a great Senator

[Cha]

31. It doesn't work that way.. here I am calling out Flores..

There's no defending VP Biden without explaining why..

Event organizer: Biden, accuser were never alone together

“I have thoroughly reviewed photographic documentation from the event, and spoken to nearly every principle in attendance, as well as staff associated with the event. To the best of our recollection, at no time were Lucy Flores and Vice President Biden alone,” Henry Munoz, co-founder of Latino Victory Project, said in a statement.

“Lucy is my good friend and a good friend to Latino Victory, which has strongly supported her political career. I also firmly believe that women need to be supported and heard and that there is a reckoning in our culture that is long overdue. Vice President Biden is also my close friend, to the degree that he presided over my own marriage. These are both individuals that I love and respect,” he said.

“Yet at no time were these two leaders alone together and I, and the organization I cofounded and those in attendance, do not believe that circumstances support allegations that such an event took place,” he added.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=44281

Link to tweet

Vice President Joe Biden takes a selfie with Nevada Lt. Governor Democratic candidate Lucy Flores during a rally in support of Nevada Democrats at the Plumbers and Pipefitters Joint UA Local 525 in Las Vegas Saturday, Nov. 1, 2014. (AP Photo/Las Vegas Sun, L.E. Baskow) (Photo: L.E. Baskow, AP)

And, there is evidence of her trying to smear Hillary in 2017.. so I'm going with Vice President Biden's statements.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[loyalsister]

33. It's totally unnecessary

This is a political problem for Joe. As it is unwinding, it's clear that the numbers are against him. He has a record of crossing a line with physical affection. Whether that makes someone uncomfortable is not my business or my place to define. The main lesson of me too is numbers. Every woman in the US lives with a threat of sexual assault or unwanted advances. Most of us have experienced it. And, many live with severe trauma because of their experience.
The odds are that at least one woman has experienced Joe's affection in a way that made her feel even worse than uncomfortable.

I think he is sincere in that he didn't intend to make anyone uncomfortable, and centering it back on himself shows that he is still operating as if his intentions naturally invalidate the experience of any woman who was on the receiving end.

I get that there are people who are satisfied with how he has addressed it and that is a valid option. Primaries are a time of forgiveness and calculating what compromises one is willing to make in support of a candidate. There are good reasons to support Joe and the rest of our candidates. There are also good reasons why someone would not support any given candidate.

The entire basis for rejecting basic decency as "political correctness" is a belief that less powerful people are not supposed to object to being dehumanized or dismissed as unimportant. Going down that road and making this about what a terrible woman did to their favorite candidate does not reflect well on the supporters or the candidate.

[LongtimeAZDem]

34. Basic decency is accepting a compassionate gesture in the spirit it was intended, and

speaking honestly to the person in private if it made you feel uncomfortable.

Not going on the talk show circuit implying the person is a perv while simultaneously denying that's what you're doing.

[loyalsister]

36. Yeah

That what my dad said when I hurt his feelings by telling him that a white person calling someone n--- is always offensive. The back story is he has a white friend who looks like a white version of Sherman Hemsly. A black man who worked for him pointed it out and called him a n---- This happened over 30 yrs ago and he still calls that white guy n----

He sees himself as funny and lovable because that's what people tell him. He never wants to hurt anyone. He uses the word affectionately. To criticize him is to take it out of context. I don't except him ducking responsibility or awareness for doing something known to cause people pain and discomfort either.

But, in his mind people are supposed be nicer to him and take him at his word and assume he never means any harm.