Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumCuba Has Not Been A Bad Neighbor Or a Threat To the US -- Ever. There Is No Cuban Taint.
Reposted from another thread because I'm sick of the Bernie-Cuba "taint" claims going on around here.
I AM a Cuba apologist. The terrorist has been the USA, trying to kill Castro several hundred times.
I hate when I read this stuff in America, but I won't back down from addressing it. It's been WE, the USA, that have been the terrorists. This is our proven, unclassified history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro
I lived just north of Miami for fifteen years, from age 3 to age 18, and made friends with at least three Cuban refugees who worked in the area. From 8th grade on I acquired conversational level Spanish in and out of school, and learned a lot about the Cubans who left and the Cubans who stayed, all during the many waves of Cuban "refugees" arriving in Florida.
Every American needs to read more Cuban history of its constant conquering and enslavements, about Jose Marti, Carlos Manuel de Cespedes and others who fought for Cuban independence from colonial enslavement and exploitation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba#Independence_movements
Batista was a popular Cuban military veteran figure turned mafia capitalist. Hell, even I knew that because my parents told me so. Everybody in South Florida knew that Batista was tied up with Mayer Lansky's gambling mafia and who-knows-what-else. Castro and Guevara drove him out because Cubans suffered poverty and starvation under Batista. We, the ever bad neighbor of El Norte, helped Batista become dictator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista
Cubans who left were Batista loyalists. Right wing. Pro-fascist. Pro-capitalists. They did well in Miami because the gaming capitalists of South Florida welcomed them.
Batista's Cuban supporters are still in Florida! They love Trump for the same reasons they loved Batista!
But not all of them. Some of them are working class Cubans. They know the old Cubans up in Ybor City, in Tampa, the first city founded by Cubans in Florida.
Cubas reputation for educational prowess is well earned.
I've talked to Cubans during two two-week visits in the last three years, and I can attest that they are well educated, whether they push a cart, farm, drive taxis or work in restaurants and hotels. Being a teacher, I made it a point to ask them how education in Cuba was for them. The literacy HAS been a miracle, and is the highest in the Caribbean if not the Americas. We can thank the lawyer, Fidel Castro, for setting up free education from 1st grade through college, whether you want to or not.
There's a reason their medical school has turned out thousands upon thousands of doctors who have aided Cuba's African allies struggling to throw European asset strippers off their lands. We can thank the doctor, Che Guevara, for setting up Cuba's medical school in Havana, and Cuba's hospital system.
I visited, with a group of six other Spanish speakers -- a local Cuban university professor explaining everything on our tour with us, and thoroughly answering all our questions -- the northern farmlands and villages of Pinar del Río, Artemisa, La Habana, Mayabeque, Matanzas and Cienfuegos provinces. Many visits, talks with Cubans, photos of farmlands and people, and great learning about their so-called "poverty." In the south, on my second trip, a full week in Santiago de Cuba, formerly Oriente province, my guide for two days was a native Santiago resident, a lovely, proud young woman who rode me around by taxis and pedicabs, taught me so much history from Fidel's grave and the world class cemetery of the greats of Cuba in Santiago, through the city, all the way to the castle/forts on the coastline. (El Morro is a similar one in Puerto Rico)
Oh, I do know American propaganda a lot better now. I know that every single thing I've learned from Cubans and Cuba shows that what this government has said is the real propaganda, the same I've read since I was a kid learning about Cuba from Cuban refugees.
No country who struggles for sovereignty or freedom is clean. Not a single one. Our revolution didn't look clean to proxy supporters on both sides, and it will always appear that way to those who are told to see freedom fighters as terrorists.
MY Bottom Line: I challenge anyone in DU to travel to Cuba and not come back changed toward a positive view of Cuba. If they don't come back with an entirely changed view of Cuba, I will pay their air fare AND buy them a cerveza. Hold me to it.
The only "parrots who don't know better" about Cuba are those who haven't, don't, or won't go to Cuba to see for themselves, and prefer to parrot this mal vecino's propaganda dished out for the last 60 years.
We should be ashamed of what bad neighbors we have been to all of the Americas, especially Cuba, which we've coveted like an empire vulture since the last century. Oh, and Alice Walker, a great American writer, was among the first to challenge the travel sanctions imposed on US by our own government; you know, a wall.
Let's not drag Cuba through the mudslinging of our primaries. Cuba is no pernicious, horrible neighbor to be used as a club to beat any of our candidates over the head with. Cuba is NOT Russia. In any way. Do not fall for this false equivalency of bullshit. Cuba is in TOTAL solidarity with Africa, by its own proud claims.
Cuba and its people, for all they've suffered at our hands, do not in any way deserve this unconscious, ignorant treatment. Nor do our candidates.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)I'd love to visit.
Thanks for the OP. It's brave of you to make your point of view public here.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)With each passing year, I become more and more preoccupied with, and worried about, what we are doing to the biosphere. Climate change gets a lot of attention (as it should), but we're not making progress on that front, and it's not the only ecological boundary we are overshooting.
I don't know if you're familiar with the Human Development Index. It's a measure that's been broadly adopted as a way of gauging "progress." They key components are life expectancy at birth, levels of education, and per capita GDP. An alternative to that has been proposed, which is called the Sustainable Development Index. It weighs per capita GDP differently, keeps the life expectancy and education figures as they are in the HDI, and includes measures of material consumption and carbon emissions. Cuba comes out at #1 on the SDI.
Cuba may not have the economic growth of countries that embrace capitalism, but they don't have problems with hunger and homelessness either, their life expectancy and education levels are very high, and they do it with a much lower level of resource consumption and waste production. My belief is that, because of ecological limits, if the collective "we" don't abandon the growth paradigm, humankind will be facing a very bleak future.
If you're interested, here's a link to a paper about the Sustainable Develpment Index:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800919303386
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
zentrum
(9,865 posts)People here have been so pumped up on cold war propaganda all their lives that they might actually prefer Batista in charge.
Everyone ought to see The God Father movie agin---the scene where the mob and AT&T (I think) carve up Cuba to eat as cake. Not sure of the corporations involved in the scene--it's been years since seeing.
Someday, if we survive, our true history might actually be taught in school.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)And remember Michael Moore's "Sicko?" Made the point about Cuban medical care.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
zentrum
(9,865 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Response to ancianita (Original post)
BlueTillIDie This message was self-deleted by its author.
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2020, 07:21 PM - Edit history (1)
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wnylib
(21,146 posts)present an obstacle for Sanders in the general if he is the nominee, does it not? Republican retirees, Republicans of Cuban descent.
As for Cuba never harming the US, there was that little dust-up over missles in 1962. Yes, I know the Soviets were behind it. I know it was a reaction to the Bay of Pigs. And I know that the US drove Cuba into the arms of tge Soviets with our support for Batista and refusal to acknowledge Cuban independence from American influence.
Most Cubans have better educations and health care now than they did under Batista. No civil liberties, but better material lives than before, except the wealthy landowners who fled to the US.
So what does all this mean regarding Sanders as a "Democratic Socialist" candidate?
It means that he would not win FL in the general because Cubans there will not vote for him. Neither will Republican retirees.
They are not the only people in the general who would not vote for Sanders.
I have read and heard the claims that his "Democratic Socialism" is the same as the FDR programs and the northern European countries. But that does not seem to be the case. FDR was a capitalist and never claimed otherwise. He created social programs to aid the victims of the Depression and promoted regulations to protect and preserve the capitalist system. At most, he could be called a Social Democrat. And that is what the capitalist countries of northern Europe call themselves --
capitalist Social Democrats.
Warren makes a distinction in terms. She rejects the socialist term for herself and says she is a capitalist who wants reforms. Her programs would save capitalism from monopolistic corporations and the crooked oligarchs who profit from them.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Especially since over half a million of those were done in the context of today's GOP politics. So don't be so sure about why they wouldn't vote for Sanders. The "vote blue no matter who" is ringing across the disaffected of this country who really know that the economy under IF45 doesn't work for them, and threatens to take away what benefits the country still gets to keep itself together.
So I can't really buy the idea that Sanders can't win FL in the general. We'll see how the numbers look during the primaries. FL is, indeed, a battleground state just as much for the under-registered GOP there as for the Democratic Party.
I agree with everything you say about FDR. Anyone who's done any good for Americans has had that label shot at them like some lethal weapon.
Agreed about social democratic countries. We can get a lot of good ideas from our Northern European capitalist social democratic country allies, since they credit us with a lot of what they've implemented in the first place, just making improvements.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wnylib
(21,146 posts)and yet, Florida's governor and legislature are Republican. A little insight into FL voting habits.
I've mentioned the reasons why I do not support Sanders. I do not support socialism and I know that most Americans do not. There were Dems who voted for Trump in 2016 and there will be more in 2020 if Sanders is the nominee.
So, what are your reasons for supporting socialism?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Court decision for the presidential recount in Bush v Gore in 2000. FL's probably solidified its suppression habit since it's had SCOTUS help. But who really knows. They just let ex-felons vote,too, so there's that. We'll see, and then know what to expect after their primary. All the battleground states probably will have a major effect on the convention, not just delegate counts.
I support Bernie. But I think, like Elizabeth Warren, that she'd make the best president of all our candidates. She's done more and better than Biden, even. She's Bernie with more down ballot coat tails toward congressional majorities, and she's without the Russian/Cuban baggage.
About socialism? I support socialism for the rest of us who pay the taxes that we should get spent on us, instead of corporate socialism, that bails out failed banksters and subsidizes big fossil with our tax money at $5 TRILLION per year. (from David Wallace-Wells' The Uninhabitable Earth (2019) )
Socialism is actually what northern European socialist democratic countries have been since WWII, when they subordinate corporations to government regulations, and willingly pay higher taxes for free health care and education. They're still capitalist and innovative. They just put human spending interests first. Most Americans would prefer that, I believe. At least they're getting there.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/257639/four-americans-embrace-form-socialism.aspx
This could get interesting.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tweedy
(628 posts)First, Castro did come for Batista supporters. Batista was a monster.
Then, Castro came for people who also opposed Batista, but disagreed with Castro.
Then, Castro came for the people closest to him, people who helped him oust Batista.
The Cuban economy collapsed and people fled for something better. These people did not flee for politics, decades after Batista was long gone. These folks are economic migrants and we are happy to have them.
There are a million stories in the big city. People come to America for millions of reasons. Cuban Americans have their millions of stories, too.
Most importantly, it is slanderous to suggest that every Cuban American and their descendants supported Batista.
Were you aware the United States of America supported Batista's over throw? We did. There are a trillion stories in a free country. We are free to write our own, subject to verification.
"Alternative facts" are the tools of monster to hold and keep power.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
redqueen
(115,096 posts)It's long past time to stop the tradition of backing up US lies for optics.
That goes for every country who hides their evil actions from their people.
Tell the truth!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
MaryMagdaline
(6,849 posts)and almost started WWIII but other than that ...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Peacetrain
(22,836 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TwilightZone
(25,342 posts)That's the problem with blanket or absolute statements. It seems that they're rarely true.
Ever means...ever. Not "well, except for the exceptions".
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)What's not to understand?
Castro's choice to get energy help from Russia was the forced choice-that-was-no-choice because of OUR total sanctions. You can thank OUR LEADERS from causing the missile threat from Russia.
Cuba was their tool. We wanted Cuba to be OUR tool, and WE caused the Russia insurgency into Cuba.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
33taw
(2,420 posts)to us citizens.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)RUSSIA posed a threat to us citizens.
Knock it off.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
33taw
(2,420 posts)This is a place for opinions and trying to shove your thoughts down someones throat is not going to work.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)thoughtful opinion, not "regardless" opinions.
I don't go into people's threads with repeats of oppositional opinion without posting links and sources to back me up. If I don't agree, I don't disagree unless it's to explain another perspective.
If you have no regard for my opinion, don't try to explain "regardless," you can spare me the lecture on rudeness.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
33taw
(2,420 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to 33taw (Reply #97)
HarlanPepper This message was self-deleted by its author.
ancianita
(35,816 posts)And the extensive reading list.
And get depositions from all my old and new Cuban friends.
Nope, no expert at all.
You got any better expertise?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
33taw
(2,420 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Cuba could have got energy resources from several sources.
USSR for example. If they can sneak in Nukes with Castro's thumbs up....they can bring Oil...and JFK wouldn't have said a word.
Stop making up crap
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Khrushchev shipped in Nukes to Cuba....he couldn't ship in Oil from all his many satellite states? C'mon....you're trolling me right?
Stop.....it's comically stupid. Don't do this with people that know the history...save yourself
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)You obviously don't know Cuba-American history, either, or you wouldn't bring up the Hitler-Russian connection.
The oil embargo started with Eisenhower, who didn't like his favored Cuban dictator ousted.
There's trolling going on here, all right. But not from me.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Eko
(7,170 posts)You said they had never been a threat, if allowing another country to put nuclear missiles in their country that are aiming straight at our country is not a threat then there is no reason to talk to you about this.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Russia was the threat, taking advantage for themselves from our sanctions since the much beloved Eisenhower imposed them just because the Batista mafia were driven out.
Believe what you want.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)I'd rather stick to the facts and context of the Cuban missile "crisis" over the propaganda about Castro and Cuba.
Russia is still the greater enemy of ours than is Cuba.
It's sad that you completely give Russia's use of Cuba a pass. I won't.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)I Don't give the USSR(wasn't Russia) a pass for shit...always a threat to any Democratic country.
You haven't stated a fact yet about the CMC....you claim to have read something....I was alive then and have relatives that fled Cuba and it's dictator....a dictator that died worth more than $900 Million while the citizens of Cuba live like the street kids in India.....you don't know as much as you claim to.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)You can hate Cuba and Castro all you want. Ain't no freedom fighter who hasn't had to fight both the exploiters of their people and the proxies that support them.
I heard our first guide tell about Fidel's requiring Guevara to kill a betrayer of the revolution to test Guevara's loyalty. Our tour guide wasn't happy to tell it.
I do know that Cuban citizens did not shit in rivers like the Ganges or Indus, as Indian do today.
Cubans got infrastructure. I do know about that.
Seriously, you have your Cuban relatives' stories. Great. Believe what you want.
Here are some facts about what led to the CMC.
Before the CMC, Eisenhower attempted to assassinate Castro 38 times.
The United States imposed an arms embargo on Cuba on March 14, 1958, during the armed conflict of 1953-1958 between rebels led by Fidel Castro and the Fulgencio Batista régime. Arms sales violated U.S. policy which had permitted the sale of weapons to Latin-American countries which had signed the 1947 Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance (Rio Treaty) as long as the weapons were not used for hostile purposes.[17] The arms embargo had more of an impact on Batista than on the rebels. After the Castro socialist government came to power on January 1, 1959, Castro made overtures to the United States but was rebuffed by the Dwight D. Eisenhower administration, which by March began making plans to help overthrow him. Congress did not want to lift the embargo.
In May 1960 the Cuban government began regularly and openly purchasing armaments from the Soviet Union, citing the US arms embargo. In July 1960 the United States reduced the import quota of brown sugar from Cuba to 700,000 tons under the Sugar Act of 1948;[18] and the Soviet Union responded by agreeing to purchase the sugar instead.
In October 1960 a key incident occurred: Eisenhower's government refused to export oil to the island, leaving Cuba reliant on Soviet crude oil, which the American companies in Cuba refused to refine. This led the Cuban government to nationalize all three American-owned oil refineries in Cuba in response. The refinery owners were not compensated for the nationalization of their property. The refineries became part of the state-run company, Unión Cuba-Petróleo.[19][20]
This prompted the Eisenhower administration to launch the first trade embargoa prohibition against selling all products to Cuba except food and medicine. The Cuban regime responded with nationalization of all American businesses and most American privately-owned properties on the island. No compensation was given for the seizures, and a number of diplomats were expelled from Cuba.
The second wave of nationalizations prompted the Eisenhower administration, in one of its last actions, to sever all diplomatic relations with Cuba in January 1961. The U.S. partial trade embargo with Cuba continued under the Trading with the Enemy Act 1917...
Under JFK. On August 3, 1962, the Foreign Assistance Act was amended to prohibit aid to any country that provides assistance to Cuba.
On September 7, 1962, Kennedy formally expanded the Cuban embargo to include all Cuban trade, except for the non-subsidized sale of food and medicines
Before and after the CMC JFK attempted to assassinate Castro 42 times.
I don't claim to know everything, but I trust what I've learned from my past experience with Cuban friends, Cuban travels, reading books on Cuba, and Wikipedia.
I'm done. Have a good night.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Eko
(7,170 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend that
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
paleotn
(17,781 posts)Khrushchev had to reign in Castro, as he was more than willing to actually USE the IRBMs. Khrushchev and the Russians thought him more than a little kooky. Clear and present danger kooky. Castro either didn't fully understand or didn't care that nukes were and are tools go geopolitics, not weapons to actually be used. Precisely why no nuclear weapons have been used since 1945. Use one, things inevitably spiral out of control and it's a bad day for everyone. Of course, now we're dealing with similar kookiness in the White House ...."if we have them, why can't we use them?"
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MaryMagdaline
(6,849 posts)On the other hand, the OP's statement that "Cuba Has Not Been A Bad Neighbor Or a Threat To the US -- Ever." is not something that we need to let stand. They've been a problem neighbor. I lived through Mariel 1 and Mariel 2 here in South Florida. Castro deliberately dumped people on the US to cause chaos here. We are guilty of imposing tough sanctions on Cuba and making a bad situation worse, but there is no justification for lack of free elections and imprisoning people of conscience. Castro came into power the month and year I was born. I turned 61 last month and there has not been a free election in Cuba in my lifetime.
I had EXACTLY Bernie's opinions regarding Castro when I moved to Florida, and I totally detest the leftovers of the Batista regime here in South Florida. On the other hand, I sympathize 100% with poor Cubans who could not speak their minds in Cuba, could not get access to internet and ended up in Florida happy to get a taste of freedom. There is absolutely no excuse for the continued denial of free speech and internet access in Cuba. Carter and Obama GOT this; Bernie does not.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Poor Cubans who not speak their minds in Cuba? Do you know they represent themselves from every province in their government? How do you know about their Internet? Do you know who won't let them have Internet access? US!
The "taste of freedom" in Florida was about relief from OUR sanctions that impoverished Cubans, not anything Castro did.
Bernie gets a lot more about Cuba than you or most of DU. That I know. My offer is still on. Go there, and get back to me. If you're not changed about Cuba, I'll pay your air fare.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tritsofme
(17,325 posts)This is just...sad.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Talk about sad!
You don't even know how their government works.
Marc Frank is the only American journalist who's lived all his life in Cuba, has had his daughter educated in the Cuban education system. If you want to know more, read his book, the best objective look at our neighbor.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tritsofme
(17,325 posts)Im not.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Cuba is a people's state. It's not authoritarian.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tritsofme
(17,325 posts)And well...some things dont change...Cuba.
Im surprised you could come back and tear yourself away from that workers paradise!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Other Americans haven't been able to tear themselves away from that paradise, either. Some retire there.
Hemingway is the only one we know about.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MaryMagdaline
(6,849 posts)good doctors, so shut up and listen to your betters?
A good socialist would say that good education and good medical care are what the government OWES its people, without insisting that they give up their personal freedoms.
You can be a Frank Church and you can resist American imperialism in South America like Jimmy Carter and you can point out every evil thing we ever did in South America (my parents were Liberation Theologists and I grew up admiring Archbishop Romero and despising Reagan and Pinochet), and you don't have to defend dictators.
It's just not that difficult. Bernie needs to stand up for the resisters and not the freaking government. The GOVERNMENT in Cuba is hurting ordinary people.
Thanks for the plane fare, though. Cuba is not my cup of tea. I get all of the Cuban food and culture here without the dictatorship.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)I don't care what you think without taking my offer up. I got all of the Cuban food and culture there without the dictatorship, either.
Sit with your claims, I don't care. Don't visit, don't talk to Cubans, don't read anything about it, but don't equate the propaganda you're told with the truth.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Your initial premise was objectively incorrect. So I absolutely understand why you're compelled to suddenly argue something else.
I get it... sometimes we find that one hill to dig in on. Only later do we find out it just happens to be surrounded on every side by so many taller hills.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Russia's deal: We'll give you oil for land access. You know, the mafia tentacle deal.
What would your purity, moral Call be on behalf of your people?
Venezuela finally was able to trade with Cuba for years, and so when Russia collapsed, Cuba bought VZ oil, and NO quid pro quo entered that.
Except for that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
oldsoftie
(12,410 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
oldsoftie
(12,410 posts)https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/jfk-attack/
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-23-mn-5361-story.html
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/news/cuba/2018-01-11/dark-beyond-darkness-cuban-missile-crisis-book
I'm sure the Cuban utopia is more than willing to have you
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)of its dealmaking with vulnerable countries.
Meanwhile nothing in the Cuban utopia is Russian, like its cigars, rum, sugar, Afro-Cuban music, dance, art, since the 19th Century; its medical force sent to Angola and other struggling countries in solidarity; or its literature and ballet.
It's not utopia, but Cuba has culture, some of the best in the Americas.
It's willing to have you see and experience it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,273 posts)... two year prior.
Gee I wonder why they hated us and felt like they needed a deterrent?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
progressoid
(49,827 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Warpy
(110,913 posts)by putting our missiles in eastern Turkey. Russia was just answering that one. Nobody was really told that part of it at the time and the whole thing was terrifying. I didn't hear terrified silence like that again until 9/11.
Fortunately, we didn't have an orange toddler in office, so both sides backed down.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
H2O Man
(73,333 posts)They resisted each and every CIA/organized crime attempt to kill Castro. I note that you didn't mention that Fidel had a beard.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Whats a beard got to do with it.
Notice all our millennials these days? You wanna stigmatize their beards, too?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
H2O Man
(73,333 posts)have been better if I included: (This is a joke!)
I'm old enough to remember that people in the US obsessed on Castro's beard. In fact, the CIA actually plotted to make his beard fall off.
I guess I thought that the statement that Cuba resisted each and every attempt by the CIA/mob to assassinate him would serve as a clue that (This is a joke!) I shall try to be careful next time.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
H2O Man
(73,333 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
PETRUS
(3,678 posts)The hazards of online communication, I guess. I'm pretty sure you're both on the same side.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Only the most misguided and concrete of thinkers could have mistaken what I said as anything but a joke about those with Fidel-phobia.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
H2O Man
(73,333 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
H2O Man
(73,333 posts)The US policy towards Cuba has been stain on our nation for decades. It can be traced back to then-VP Nixon's relationship to the mobsters that wanted Cuba for gambling, etc.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
H2O Man
(73,333 posts)In his 2012 book "Watergate: The Hidden History (Nixon, the Mafia, and the CIA," author Lamar Waldron documents that the purpose of the Watergate and Chilean Embassy break-ins were definitely rooted in Nixon's paranoia -- they were looking for a document that Castro had sent to some Democrats before the 1972 election. The document showed VP Nixon's role in involving the mob in the CIA's anti-Castro efforts. Nixon was afraid it would be used against him in the election.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
H2O Man
(73,333 posts)After the theft of the 2000 election, Al Gore GREW A BEARD! Older-time forum members had a giggle over republicans freaking out over his beard.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Beards carry lots of scary baggage, don't they. All the men I dated in the 60's and 70's had them, my son now has a heavy beard and is a delegate in his NM county's Democratic Party. Things are changing, hopefully.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
H2O Man
(73,333 posts)since I retired in 2003. Haven't hard a haircut in much longer than that, and it's well below my waist these days.
I find it sad that people allow VP Nixon & the mob's definition of Cuba set the standard for their thinking.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)I hope a lot of people read it and understand what you are talking about.
I've been intrigued by Cuba since I was a kid in the mid-80s, Reagan and the RW were fuming about what was probably the obvious coming end to the Cold War, and I wondered why the fuck was this relatively tiny island getting so much attention, as though it was a huge threat the future of our country and democracy and freedom. Learning more about it was a real political awakening for me. And probably the beginning of my typical Gen X cynicism of authority, lol.
I appreciate you laying out this perspective and history.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Jose Garcia
(2,552 posts)That doesn't mean that there weren't terrible things going on in his apartment.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
blue-wave
(4,317 posts)There is no quarrel with vast majority of people in Cuba or the country itself. It's their recent leaders (the last 60 years or so) that are a problem. And yes, Cuba WAS an imminent threat to the United States during the Cuban missile crisis.
Even if Bernie wants everyone to accept his supposition that Castro's um, ahem..."education program" was good and not an attempt to indoctrinate a whole class of poor people into communist ideology, it's not working with very many Americans, especially Cuban Americans. You know, the Cuban people who you claim to know so well.
I can't accept the "Well, Castro did some good too" argument. He was a brutal totalitarian dictator. He imprisoned, murdered, tortured thousands of human beings. I can't help but believe the Bernie crowd is using this issue as an attempt to make communism appear a good thing.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Castro (to name a few) were not altruistic individuals. Just the four named were responsible for millions of deaths and a countless amount of human misery. My God!!!! We are talking about genocide!!! How can we hold any of these people up and glorify them or their policies?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)You don't know current Cuban Americans. They're old Batista loyalists who love Trump. You don't have to take my word for it. Just look at their guy, Rubio, and their votes. They're always Republican voters for very right wing reasons.
Don't conflate our enslaved neighbors with the likes of Stalin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot followers. This is just plain ignorant.
The Americas have been fighting for centuries to throw off the effects of their conquistador and American corporate invasions. That you can't see that says more about you than them.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
blue-wave
(4,317 posts)who I know and don't know. You know nothing about me.
By the way, Castro's ideological path was modeled and very similar to that of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot.
Again, all I'm seeing in your comments is "America bad, communism good." Please try and see that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)I could say the same thing about you knowing me, too.
Castro's ideological path was in no way modeled OR similar to "that of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot." He wasn't a purist genocidal leader who purged his people. The Batista folks just left. Those who stayed have never, ever suffered Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot treatment.
You can't just sweep in here with "all I'm seeing in your comments is "America bad, communism good." comment and say you're seeing anything of value that I've said on Cuba's behalf.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
blue-wave
(4,317 posts)Cuba under Castro was a nightmare for the Cuban people and you know it. You are trying to be divisive to the Democratic Party with this post. Just what Uncle Pooty might want. You claim to know a lot. Know anything about Russian bots?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
HarlanPepper
(2,042 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)They've been that way for decades. That's why they love Trump, and so does their guy, Rubio.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
HarlanPepper
(2,042 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
HarlanPepper
(2,042 posts)Did they deserve what they got do you think?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)them rebuild their good and welfare through government and institutions.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
HarlanPepper
(2,042 posts)IN a response upthread you mentioned there were working class Cubans in parts of Florida and rich Cubans in South Florida. Fine. But that sort of belies your earlier statement that the only people who have ever left Cuba did so out of personal greed. There are people that still leave Cuba, long after Batista took his dirt nap.
So yeah, I'm sorry, but I'm not really able to take you very seriously on this one. I find extreme points of view on subjects that aren't as black or white as you make them to be kind of silly and child like. Cuba is complicated. Our history with Cuba is complicated. It's not the utopia you make it out to be and it's not the hell state many Americans believe it is. I find merit in that point of your argument, but some of your responses in the thread have been kind of out there TBH.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)to an oversimplified comment about Cuban refugees. Of course you shouldn't take me seriously, but don't expect me to give a socioeconomic breakdown of Cubans in Florida, either.
I make no claim to Cuba being a utopia; you say I do. I don't. Of course I agree that it's complicated. But freedom struggles are always complicated by what big nation proxies want their people to believe about who the good guys and bad guys are. I DO say that the 60 year propaganda campaign has been full-on lying about Cuba's leader and Cubans themselves, and many comments here show how that's sunk into Americans' psyche. A major issue that Obama tried to open up public discourse about, so that misunderstandings could get cleared up.
I'd suggest more reading's in order.
You needn't take anything I'm saying as anything more than my opinion. "Out there." But not appropriate to "out there" comments. Okay. Fine.
Thanks for your post.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MaryMagdaline
(6,849 posts)There are plenty of left-leaning Cubans who got the hell out in the 80's, 90's and aughts.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
HarlanPepper
(2,042 posts)The only people who have ever fled cuba are people who were simply consumed by their own personal greed, it wasn't over oppression or anything like that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MaryMagdaline
(6,849 posts)I stand corrected.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
HarlanPepper
(2,042 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MaryMagdaline
(6,849 posts)So many of these people have become such great citizens. The owner of Las Vegas chain restaurants here (good Cuban food) was a refuge from Mariel. My husband and fishing buddies had to rescue rafters in the early 2000's. Pretty grim.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)are no argument.
Show links, sources for the photos, context. Add something here instead of cheap shots.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
zackymilly
(2,375 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
totodeinhere
(13,037 posts)people. The average Cuban was much better off after Castro came to power. However, Castro did make a lot of mistakes too.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
voteearlyvoteoften
(1,716 posts)We need more thoughtful and anecdotal essays. Not every subject tweets well. 🇨🇺
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
myohmy2
(3,118 posts)"...a club to beat any of our candidates over the head with..."
...it's so sad what they try to do to smear Bernie...
...if there ever was a Presidential candidate with a genuinely good heart, it's Bernie...
...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)I do appreciate Bernie and have backed him in past primaries. I just think this stigmatizing him through his comments 30 years ago, and Cuba with it, is beneath Democrats.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
snowybirdie
(5,191 posts)Cuba allowed Russia to try and bring NUCLEAR WEAPONS into Cuba aimed at our country. I'm old enough to remember the fear and uncertainties surrounding that time. I. feared for the lives of my army husband and the life of my newborn child. Please don't try and change actual, real historical fact. Look up October 27,1962.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)You mistake the threat. Cuba's never had nuclear or missile capability.
JFK didn't negotiate with Castro.
He negotiated with the real threat, RUSSIA.
Cuba "allowed"??
You can thank OUR LEADERS SANCTIONS for causing the missile threat from Russia.
We wanted Cuba to be OUR tool. We hardass sanctioned them instead of using diplomacy. Russia took advantage of Castro's energy dilemma to make his deal.
Castro's choice to get energy help from Russia was the forced choice-that-was-no-choice because of OUR total sanctions.
WE caused the Russia insurgency into Cuba. We're causing Russia to take over Syria and Ukraine right now.
You might not like what Cuba had to do, so you can take that up with our former policy makers and presidents. But it's not your people who were dying in darkness due to our terrorist move that came upon the Cubans long before Russia did. You get to be all 20-20 hindsight righteous, don't you.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
rwsanders
(2,585 posts)The U.S. has used the same playbook throughout central and south america despite the denials here.
Support the corporations, throw the poor off of their land. If they dare to look for support outside the U.S. then they are declared "communist" and are then subject to our support of dictators, oppressive governments, and paramilitaries.
Good job trying to clear it up. Same type of western sanctions have been hobbling Haiti for generations.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Western sanctions are just another tool in the Economic Hit Man toolbox we've used for 100 years.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
rwsanders
(2,585 posts)Prouty was an insider. Most of the book though has little to do with JFK and more with what was going on throughout central and south America. I think he wrote the book because he was an Air Force colonel and resented the fact that the Air Force "became a taxi service for the CIA".
Many here don't want to hear what you are saying. I was slammed by a few folks like you were, well not nearly as hard and not nearly as many, but was told I was an idiot because I was saying that gas prices here were low and the Saudis were allowed to tie their currency to the dollar partly to bankrupt Venezuela. Before Venezuela went bankrupt. The goal is no left leaning government to compete with US influence in this region, and gain control of the oil in south America.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Everything you say fits with what this nation's leadership has done. Much appreciated. VZ's got big oil vultures surrounding it. And yeah, folks do have their beliefs to defend.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MaryMagdaline
(6,849 posts)When the Soviet Union fell, one of the old cold warriors gave an interview, stating that Castro kept egging the Russians on to STRIKE the US.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tirebiter
(2,520 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tirebiter
(2,520 posts)Russia had not developed their ICBMs yet so put their short range missiles on Cuba. At Fidels ok. When a deal was cut between JFK and Khrushchev the only unhappy camper was Castro who had wanted to fire a couple missiles at the Us to make the point that he could. That hurried up Krushchev because he was facing pressure in both Russia and Cuba to show he had a pair. Thats why he volunatarily stepped down not long afterward.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)want to make a point? Seems like something a threatened leader would do.
Kruschev's economy was bad, so this was also a distraction, since Cuban money couldn't really help Russia at that point. Gorbachev, Yeltsin and the KGB guy are still tied to their oil as leverage geopolitics.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tirebiter
(2,520 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Uncle Joe
(58,112 posts)Thank you for sharing.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Cuba deserves a serious rethinking, like Alice Walker and so many others have said.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LonePirate
(13,386 posts)Dont even try to convince me interrogations involving torture dont occur there.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)you that we threatened Castro to keep it. It was originally a ship coaling station among thousands all over the world once used for global shipping.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_Naval_Base
It was established in 1898, when the United States took control of Cuba from Spain following the SpanishAmerican War. ... The United States used Guantanamo Bay as a processing center for asylum-seekers and as a camp for HIV-positive refugees in the 1990s.
Jill Lepore explains Guantanamo as never having been part of either the U.S. or Cuba. "Guantanamo one of the known world's last no-man's lands." Bush administration lawyer John Yoo called it the "legal equivalent of outer space." (from These Truths -- a History of the United States (2018), p. 746)
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)?height=168&width=200
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)We sure were so vulnerable!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
carlvsam
(21 posts)is just how far some on the far-left are willing to go to defend their questionable positions.
This map shows the potential contemporary defensive response to a possible launch of a few ballistic missiles from Iran, and has NOTHING to do with the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. Heck, just about none of the weapons shown on this map existed back then.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
tirebiter
(2,520 posts)Ukraine is the same color as Russia and both are color coded as NATO partners. What's the deal with that? And Iran is an enemy of Russia? Have they been told yet? When are they going to start acting like it?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
lapucelle
(18,043 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to ancianita (Original post)
chwaliszewski This message was self-deleted by its author.
burrowowl
(17,607 posts)Iran contra under Bush I and Raygun killed 200,000 to 250,000 Guatemalan native people
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Bettie
(15,998 posts)Honestly, normalizing relations with Cuba would do a lot of good for both nations.
But, everyone is stuck in a 1960's mindset....and they don't see that Russia has a new Pet Authoritarian Dictator (well, almost a dictator, getting close now) in our so-called president.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Bettie
(15,998 posts)It just makes sense.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
myohmy2
(3,118 posts)...it's almost as though we're just reacting and and can't remember why...
...our government today is still going though the motions of hating and punishing Cuba...haven't we got better countries to hate and punish?
...it makes no sense to me...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
whathehell
(28,969 posts)I lived through it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)moralist, and me saying "walk a mile in Cuba's shoes."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
whathehell
(28,969 posts)Am I talking to an American?
As for the rest, I have no idea what you're talking about..I think you've responded to the wrong poster.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
whathehell
(28,969 posts)You.also used "you" in another context. What do.you.mean about."You.playing the high road"?
You seem to think we've had some extended exchange here, when this is the first thing I've ever posted here about Cuba with you or anyone else.
Again, I rhink you have the wrong poster.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)for your opinion after all these years?
Then I'll take the 'high road' comment back.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
whathehell
(28,969 posts)I don't think I want to explain anything else to you. .Have a nice evening.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
applegrove
(118,024 posts)there and says the locals cannot afford to eat in the restaurants that the tourists go to. That the restaurants are completely empty until the tour buses arrive. Imagine a whole country with no disposable income. They should have gone all capitalist 40 years ago.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)to own 50% of any corporate presence in their country. If a corporation wants to do business there, that's the leverage they make for not just being taken over by corporate big money market values.
They've got that right. So profiteers don't do business there. Not the Cubans' fault.
They're doing fine. Their country is pristine, self-sufficient, educated and healthy.
Look at us by comparison. Then tell me who's poor.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
applegrove
(118,024 posts)prostitute because that was the only way to make money. It was messed up.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
HarlanPepper
(2,042 posts)On a street corner in Vedado, Havanas most affluent suburb, pedestrians have had to manoeuvre around a metre-wide hole in the pavement on Calle 10 for months. Smashed concrete spills on to the road, encircling what has since turned into a pit of rubbish a pockmark on the face of Havanas fading grandeur.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/05/havana-cuba-rubbish-strewn-streets-spark-anger-failing-city
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
applegrove
(118,024 posts)then. It was a reality check.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
SCantiGOP
(13,856 posts)Thanks for the post
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,110 posts)Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join The Revolution!!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
alwaysinasnit
(5,038 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
oldsoftie
(12,410 posts)Other countries never took part in the blockade, so Cubans could get what they wanted from others.
I'm tired of alway seeing the US blamed for other countries corruption.
You probably also blame the US for Venezuela's problems. Save it
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
oldsoftie
(12,410 posts)Oh, YOU went to Cuba and the people said how grand everything was! Yeah, and I'm sure you'll say you were allowed to go anywhere you wanted to. if so, I'll know this post is BS
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
roody
(10,849 posts)If a ship docks in Cuba, it is not allowed to dock in the US.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
oldsoftie
(12,410 posts)But since they dont have much money since Russia quit propping them up, they arent able to BUY much.
I guess a country can send one ship to the US and another to Cuba. Who would ever think it possible.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)They've got a better debt as a percentage of GDP then most countries, too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cuba
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
burrowowl
(17,607 posts)Batista and the mafia were very bad people.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BlueWI
(1,736 posts)Thanks for dropping some facts and perspectives that all of us can use!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
beachbumbob
(9,263 posts)capable to hitting US cities in 5 minutes.
selective memory it appears
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Dem4Life1102
(3,974 posts)But other than that, Cuba has never been a threat to the US.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BlueWI
(1,736 posts)1. It's been brought up about ten times on this thread alone.
2. It's a rather prominent historical event to forget.
3. Even the most general made-for-tv history program about the cold war, the 60s, or John Kennedy covers the Cuban Missile Crisis, even if one wasn't alive at that time.
I would confidently argue that not one person on DU is unaware of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The relevant question is whether any other governance actions by Castro are worthy of a positive comment, such as a literacy program. And I would agree with that OP that first hand perspectives and occasional nuance is best for understanding developments in Cuba, rather than blanket condemnation based on an event from more than half a century ago.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
beachbumbob
(9,263 posts)Are we now going into alternative facts too? Just saying.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BlueWI
(1,736 posts)or just the title?
Nuance and substance are your friends.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mountain grammy
(26,573 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BilltheCat
(65 posts)Between Cuba and M4A may as well kiss Florida good-bye. GOP will be tarring the party with this 24x7. Just great.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)the GOP are to be made up of pro-Trump Cubans, since Cubans in Florida are no more a monolith than black people or women or LGBTQ.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
David__77
(23,220 posts)I want the US respect national sovereignty of other countries and maintain cooperative and mutually beneficial relations.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Ferrets are Cool
(21,064 posts)done anything evil or malicious.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
flamingdem
(39,304 posts)Excellent truths that need to be stated.
Most of the Cuban Americans who hate Castro are Republicans. They weren't going to vote for Biden since they hate Obama too. They might vote for Bloomberg. Younger Cubans are more moderate - they will not vote for Trump and might vote for Bernie if they care about conditions in Cuba.
By the way there are more Puerto Ricans than Cubans in Miami now, I think. They'll vote Bernie big time.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)The Miami Herald reports that Cubans still dominate with over 1 million there. 250,000 borriquenos arrived since hurricane Maria.
Since IF45 was so helpful with his half-assed do nothing relief for Puerto Rico.
That one example is part and parcel of how Americans can count on this shit-for-brains, insult to injury president as we in the states get hit by a future natural disaster or pandemic.
Here's another recent look.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/not-just-cubans-many-latinos-now-call-miami-home-n37241
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Ask the political prisoners under the Castro boys.....ask the thousands of Cubans that tried to cross that 90miles of Ocean to get out of that shithole....they came North....they didn't go South
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Cubans did not just go north.
At least 300,000 Cubans have relocated to Spain, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Mexico, and other Latin American and Caribbean countries, as well as Canada and European nations such as Germany, Italy, and France.
Much earlier, by the end of the 19th century, Cubans had established sizable communities in Key West and Tampa, Florida; New York City; and New Orleans, having fled political and economic turmoil on the island.
They've been travelling out their shithole country bringing cigars, rum, sugar, Afro-Cuban music, dance, art, literature and ballet. Yeah, all the putrid stuff shithole countries produce.
Thing is, I saw all that stuff, but I never saw a shithole country when I visited there.
But hey, if you insist, at least be consistent; Cuba wasn't shithole until conquistador and corporate slavers made it so. Smell that far back?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)No Cubans rafted to Spain or Canada or.."..and European nations such as Germany, Italy, and France."
Castro boys were dictators....that's not debatable.....and would shoot you in the face if you challenged their power......or jail you if you were lucky
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)How old were you, again, when the Cuban revolution and aftermath took place?
I got firsthand reports from anti-Castro Cubans for eight years. What are your sources?
This isn't about the immigration; you're condemning the whole nation because of your cherry-picked flawed leader. You say he was genocidal? A murderer? Prove it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)I NEVER said anything about genocide.......do you know what genocide is?
I never said anything about the Nation
It would be really REALLY stupid to accuse someone of saying that when you can't show they did.....please try showing I ever said it?
I do know my Florida relatives(5 Cuban refugees) said that Castro was a ruthless killing sunofabitch...those that opposed his dictatorship evaporated...or killed in front of their family as an example to the rest or jailed....can you dispute them?
1 more point...when Castro finally croaked.....he was worth about $900 MILLION...how'd did that happen while most of his citizens lived like dogs?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Batista Cubans are the big martyr makers of their Batista troops. One once has America admitted to supporting the murderer that Mafia Dictator Batista was.
So pick your distortion.
More than 500 Batista-era officials were brought before courts-martial and special tribunals, summarily convicted and shot to death. The grainy black-and-white images of the executions broadcast on American television horrified viewers.
Castro defended the executions as necessary to solidify the revolution. He rightly pointed out that the United States had raised not a whimper when Mr. Batista had tortured and executed thousands of opponents, or continued enslavement on sugar plantations. Nevermind the poverty everywhere else outside Batista's immediate mafia run "enterprises."
All in all, given our national leaders' murderous approach to any socialist country, and their fearmongering of Americans to whip support, it says more about his love of country and culture that he and Cubans accomplished building the good country Cuba is today. Better than any Cuba before him.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)How is it then..Fidel died worth $900 MILLION and Cubans are rafting to the US?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)It's irrelevant, imo.
I support Cuba like he does.
Support doesn't necessitate complete agreement.
Why you keep this up isn't really to the point of Bernie's support for our neighbor.
Just as we support Democrats we don't agree with, we'd do better to support, not undermine, our neighbors in the Americas, not plant or assassinate dictators among them, or hate their people.
If we judged a people by their leaders, America would never be welcome in the global community again.
I'm done.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ms liberty
(8,480 posts)Your comments in this thread are accurate to the history I learned as well. I was two when we moved there.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
roody
(10,849 posts)with Pastors for Peace. It is a wonderful country. The Cuban government gives scholarships to US citizens to attend medical school in Cuba. Health care is a human right in Cuba.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ancianita
(35,816 posts)Your experience with Cuba helps clear up so many distortions about it.
Do you think you'll return? I hope to.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Happy Hoosier
(7,083 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Happy Hoosier
(7,083 posts)I can't understand how some on the American left romanticize that communist dictator Castro.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tweedy
(628 posts)He even shot allies and friends. A very thin skin had Fidel.
And he let the Soviets jam his country full of missiles aimed at u.s.
There is nothing admirable about such a man
Batista was a monster. Yet, the world would be better if Castro was a better baseball player. Castro could not make it to the majors, did you not know? Bitter, paranoid man.
Cubans still would have tossed Batista. Perhaps the souls wrongly executed would not number so high.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)How would you call anyone paranoid who'd outlived 638 assassination attempts? Looks like justified resistance to murderous American coup attempts to me.
The old saying holds true for Castro: just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
All while trying to build a self-sustaining, independent nation, which he eventually did in spite of our fearmongering our own people in a 62-year embargo and attack campaign. On our neighbor.
Castro assassination attempts per US administration:
Eisenhower: 38
Kennedy: 42
Johnson: 72
Nixon: 184
Carter: 64
Reagan: 197
Bush Sr: 16
Clinton: 21
All using the Yalie boys of the CIA.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tweedy
(628 posts)Neither Langley, nor anybody in the U.S.A. made him do it.
And where are you getting your cockamamie numbers?
Perhaps you have fallen prey to some "alternative facts."
You also entirely ignore that Castro risked the lives of every Cuban, every American and, indeed everyone in this world when he let the kleptocratic soviet Stalin kneelers stuff Cuba full of missiles.
Thank goodness for John Kennedy and cooler heads. Without them, Castro & his puppeteers would have robbed us of the ability to engage in this conversation.
Finally, the Cubans did not need a dear leader to save them. They were, and remain, entirely capable of saving themselves. So, thank goodness for George Washington who walked away from power. Castro was no George Washington.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
RandySF
(57,661 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)the missile crisis was officially between October 1628 in 1962, when I was 14, in 8th grade.
This is a photo dated Nov 1, days after it was over. Source?
When did you see this in U.S. history books?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
RandySF
(57,661 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BootinUp
(46,928 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TexasTowelie
(111,322 posts)aren't considered to be threats? The refugees disrupted the educational system and labor markets in Florida when they arrived, but that isn't considered to be a thread?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
David__77
(23,220 posts)Isnt that right?
I read that it was very lax- any Cuban would get asylum.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TexasTowelie
(111,322 posts)It doesn't counter the fact that Castro sent known threats to this country.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ancianita
(35,816 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TexasTowelie
(111,322 posts)The other posters in this thread handled the job adequately.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
EmeraldCoaster
(131 posts)They are all airline pilots and they all despise the Cuban government. They are universally appalled by people that promote Cuba or its economy. The Cuban people I know are great Americans. This is not propaganda I have no dog in this fight. I am trying to inject some personal experience. They would be mad at me if I smoked a cuban cigar.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ForEverGlades
(64 posts)detest the Cuban government.
It's also folks from a number of other central and South American countries, Venezuela and Nicaragua in particular.
The OP's opinion that all Cubans who detest the Cuban govt are former Batista regimers is ludicrous.
Cubans have been coming here for decades since Batista was overthrown.
They hate the Cuban govt so much because it puts people who disagree with them in prison, or worse.
I'm sure many Cubans do speak nicely about the government to tourists and foreigners.
Some are connected to the government and get preferrred benefits.
Others aren't but if they aren't complimentary it will be found out.
They know what happens next.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
blue-wave
(4,317 posts)You just described the results of a totalitarian regime's policies. I too find this OP ludicrous and frankly almost delusional.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
OnDoutside
(19,908 posts)Thought the people they met, were fantastic. But that's not the point. Beating Trump is the point. Putting forward a nominee that Republicans will hammer incessantly for his Socialist or Communist past ( or present), will result in 4 more years of Trump and 4 more years of the US hammering Cuba. This shouldn't be that hard.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden