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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 08:59 AM Mar 2020

Like many women, I'm deeply disappointed Warren's out of the race. I only wish

those of us who felt the same way about Kamala Harris' departure had been shown the same empathy and time and space that many are now insisting they be given to grieve Warren's departure.

I especially wish that everyone explaining the role that sexism played in Warren's inability to continue in the race had been as willing to recognize the role that sexism and racism played in Harris' inability to continue her campaign. Instead, we were told to stop complaining: "race and gender had nothing to do with it," "she was playing by the same rules as everyone else," "she just didn't have what it takes," "no one forced her out of the race, it was her choice," etc.

The playing field is NOT level for women and people of color, and female and minority candidates do have a more difficult time and face considerably greater obstacles that white male candidates simply don't have to deal with. And pretending this doesn't exist or telling the people who try to explain it that we are overreacting only compounds and ingrains the problem. And recognizing its existence only in certain instances while ignoring and dismissing it in others is disrespectful to allies and further rubs salt in the wounds.

Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris and Amy Klobuchar were treated differently than the men in the race. Period. It's not certain any of them would have gotten the nomination if it had been a fair fight, but I do know that gender and race got in the way and ensured we'll never know.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
127 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Like many women, I'm deeply disappointed Warren's out of the race. I only wish (Original Post) StarfishSaver Mar 2020 OP
Thank you, StarfishSaver. spicysista Mar 2020 #1
What is really sad is how many women.... MicaelS Mar 2020 #2
I want a woman to win DownriverDem Mar 2020 #30
My wife, who is only quietly political, was greatly moved by Elizabeth. empedocles Mar 2020 #3
I almost cried watching that interview Boomer Mar 2020 #6
Same gut punch here. Ohiogal Mar 2020 #35
Being a woman, certainly a significant factor imo, as Obama's race empedocles Mar 2020 #62
I did cry! pazzyanne Mar 2020 #71
So true. blm Mar 2020 #4
In some ways DownriverDem Mar 2020 #33
k&r n/t lordsummerisle Mar 2020 #5
How can support of Joe Biden be racist when he has overwhelming AA support? Cary Mar 2020 #7
Nobody said "support of Joe Biden is racist." LaurenOlimina Mar 2020 #9
I have no idea where that "Joe Biden is a racist" thing came from. Sloumeau Mar 2020 #12
First sentence of the OP Cary Mar 2020 #13
What? LaurenOlimina Mar 2020 #16
For the second and final time that isn't the point I made. Cary Mar 2020 #24
I have no idea how you get... Sloumeau Mar 2020 #25
Including me. That was not what I said. Cary Mar 2020 #18
I don't think the OP was necessarily saying that the candidates were being... Sloumeau Mar 2020 #34
I think the usual suspects, intent upon bashing Democrats, are having at it. Cary Mar 2020 #37
I believe that those of us who may perhaps be less sexist... Sloumeau Mar 2020 #40
Ok, but not every instance of voting for a white male... Cary Mar 2020 #41
You are correct. Sloumeau Mar 2020 #49
And just because someone votes for woman or minority doesn't mean they're not racist or sexist StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #50
It isn't.going to be perfect, either way Cary Mar 2020 #56
But the OP does suggest that is what is at play in the Democratic primary Cary Mar 2020 #53
Who said that? mcar Mar 2020 #59
Who said what? That there is such a thing as taking it too far? Cary Mar 2020 #61
I ask myself why a majority of uneducated white women voted for Orange Hitler Cary Mar 2020 #42
You haven't denied sexism exists, but you seem to see racism and sexism only as abstract concepts StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #45
I didn't address that either Cary Mar 2020 #51
Religion Bettie Mar 2020 #64
Oh yes, among other perverse ideas. Cary Mar 2020 #67
Of course you agree. MrsCoffee Mar 2020 #81
In this instance, yes Cary Mar 2020 #87
Denial helps no one. MrsCoffee Mar 2020 #91
Except I didn't deny anything. Cary Mar 2020 #95
Institutional racism and patriarchy... Pacifist Patriot Mar 2020 #100
No one said supporting Joe Biden is racist and no, you as a white male, PunkinPi Mar 2020 #14
Really? Cary Mar 2020 #22
Yes, really. PunkinPi Mar 2020 #31
Who's polluting the air I breathe and the water I drink? Cary Mar 2020 #66
I'm not trying to diminish you... PunkinPi Mar 2020 #72
The fact that you face some difficulties doesn't take away from the fact that women and minorities StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #76
Again you talk past me. Cary Mar 2020 #83
Of course. It's just baiting and disruption. Best to ignore. Laura PourMeADrink Mar 2020 #112
I've been told to quit throwing a pity party just this morning. LaurenOlimina Mar 2020 #8
Not sure what you're talking about. I felt the loss when Kamala Harris dropped out. Baitball Blogger Mar 2020 #10
You can't ignore the relationships that Biden eilen Mar 2020 #122
This is true. And it is a perfect example of the advantages white men have thanks to the history of StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #125
On the bright side we have Senator Warren Sunlei Mar 2020 #11
And many men too, duforsure Mar 2020 #15
This is one of the reasons that I would like Biden... Sloumeau Mar 2020 #17
There are several women of colour to choose from: luvtheGWN Mar 2020 #85
Kamala was my first choice... Wounded Bear Mar 2020 #19
I'm a 60 y.o. white male. I don't consider myself sexist or racist. I don't choose my candidates johnthewoodworker Mar 2020 #20
Agreed LaurenOlimina Mar 2020 #27
Thank you, StarfishSaver for the thoughtful OP. PunkinPi Mar 2020 #21
Thank you! LaurenOlimina Mar 2020 #28
You're welcome. nt PunkinPi Mar 2020 #32
Thank you too. Pacifist Patriot Mar 2020 #103
;) nt PunkinPi Mar 2020 #111
Sexism wasn't the cause MD shmoo Mar 2020 #23
Yes, it was. ismnotwasm Mar 2020 #29
"Yes it was" - really? MD shmoo Mar 2020 #39
You really think nominating Hillary Clinton is proof that misogyny no longer exists in the party? StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #46
I'm going to work ismnotwasm Mar 2020 #54
People don't want to hear about any reason other than Laura PourMeADrink Mar 2020 #113
Besides that Biden has decades more relevant experience MD shmoo Mar 2020 #117
All true, and the one simple fact - more Dems voted Laura PourMeADrink Mar 2020 #120
No candidate is perfect. But before criticizing Warren for failing to give straight answers The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2020 #84
You're correct it's not fair MD shmoo Mar 2020 #89
The question is: Why does Bernie get a pass for being evasive and Warren didn't? The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2020 #90
Why does Bernie get a pass? MD shmoo Mar 2020 #92
Warren and Harris JGug1 Mar 2020 #26
"However, Harris had that business with marijuana ... Warren turned every question into a lecture" StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #43
Yep. Women are not allowed even one misstep mcar Mar 2020 #60
Yes that would have been welcome. Maybe there'll be some consolation if Kamala FailureToCommunicate Mar 2020 #36
At the time she left the race, I was able to discuss it with Bettie Mar 2020 #38
Women were 57% of NH primary voters MD shmoo Mar 2020 #44
You actually posted this in this thread? StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #48
Right? Bettie Mar 2020 #68
Right, except that a lot of women Bettie Mar 2020 #52
Why NH in particular? MD shmoo Mar 2020 #63
No doubt that race and gender were a big factor brer cat Mar 2020 #47
I couldn't agree more. Andy823 Mar 2020 #55
You are absolutely right. K&R n/t Tom Rinaldo Mar 2020 #57
Thank you mcar Mar 2020 #58
the truth llashram Mar 2020 #65
I really haven't seen anyone saying that racism and sexism had nothing to do with... MrModerate Mar 2020 #69
You must not have been paying attention when she dropped out of the race StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #74
Your mileage apparently varies. I didn't see any credible postings suggesting... MrModerate Mar 2020 #75
This isn't about my "mileage" because it's not a case of perception or individual experience StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #77
Can you quantify any of this? And are you talking about... MrModerate Mar 2020 #97
Scroll up Pacifist Patriot Mar 2020 #104
I liked Amy a lot more than Warren eilen Mar 2020 #123
What a shame. So qualified. Fla Dem Mar 2020 #70
My top three choices were Warren, Klobuchar, and Harris. TryLogic Mar 2020 #73
"I wish Liz had positioned herself as a problem solver rather than a fighter ..." but StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #79
dear StarfishSaver bubbazero Mar 2020 #78
Thanks for this StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #93
sorry for the delay, caretaker for elderly mother, bubbazero Mar 2020 #99
Lots of us men are disappointed too.... NT Happy Hoosier Mar 2020 #80
I really like Warren. I like Harris and Klobuchar, too, and I hope The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2020 #82
Agreed, I also think Pete got different treatment for being gay. Zing Zing Zingbah Mar 2020 #86
My only hope is that whoever the nominee is picks Warren as their running mate. Initech Mar 2020 #88
tv is still doing too much training of the electorate Hermit-The-Prog Mar 2020 #94
KnR. Kamala Harris is my Senator, so I supported her early on. ... Hekate Mar 2020 #96
I think the mourning for Warren has to do with how long she was in the campaign.. Peacetrain Mar 2020 #98
I agree. Pacifist Patriot Mar 2020 #101
I started as a Harris supporter Fresh_Start Mar 2020 #102
My 88 year old mother in law was hoping for a female president in her lifetime kimbutgar Mar 2020 #105
I didn't vote for Harris, Warren, Gillibrand LakeArenal Mar 2020 #106
Black woman, White women, Hispanic man, black man Laura PourMeADrink Mar 2020 #114
Yes. Sometimes they do things that wreck their chances. LakeArenal Mar 2020 #115
And it all depends totally on someone's point of view. Laura PourMeADrink Mar 2020 #116
Thank you Pacifist Patriot Mar 2020 #107
We could do a lot by choosing a woman as VP. NNadir Mar 2020 #108
Very well said. warmfeet Mar 2020 #109
Thank you StarfishSaver Mar 2020 #110
Just voted for Ms Warren in the overseas primary today. And yes, I knew she has stopped GoneOffShore Mar 2020 #118
I was Harris first and I had exactly the same conversations then, as I am having now. LizBeth Mar 2020 #119
K&R betsuni Mar 2020 #121
Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris and Amy Klobuchar were treated differently turbinetree Mar 2020 #124
I did not know you were a woman. PatrickforO Mar 2020 #126
Highly recommended democrank Mar 2020 #127
 

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
1. Thank you, StarfishSaver.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:01 AM
Mar 2020

Beautifully expressed.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
2. What is really sad is how many women....
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:02 AM
Mar 2020

Will not vote for another woman. I really wanted EW to win.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

DownriverDem

(6,206 posts)
30. I want a woman to win
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:45 AM
Mar 2020

However our country is still behind when it comes to women leaders. This is why I believe that Biden will pick a strong progressive Dem woman to run as VP. The country needs to see a woman in a leadership position. Do I like it? No. But this will help a woman be ready to take over.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

empedocles

(15,751 posts)
3. My wife, who is only quietly political, was greatly moved by Elizabeth.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:02 AM
Mar 2020

Totally enamored by Rachel's interview with Warren last night.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Boomer

(4,159 posts)
6. I almost cried watching that interview
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:11 AM
Mar 2020

EW would have made a wonderful president, and she was my favorite candidate for this primary.

Waking up this morning to find her photo gone from my DU profile/sig was like a gut punch.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Ohiogal

(31,669 posts)
35. Same gut punch here.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:49 AM
Mar 2020

I just don’t understand how she didn’t absolutely run away with the nomination.

I wonder if I will ever see a woman president in my.lifetime.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

empedocles

(15,751 posts)
62. Being a woman, certainly a significant factor imo, as Obama's race
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:46 AM
Mar 2020

limited his accomplishments in office, a lot, imo.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

pazzyanne

(6,518 posts)
71. I did cry!
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:11 AM
Mar 2020

Almost 250 years and we still don't recognize women for the role they have played in the founding and development of this country. Elizabeth Warren would have given us one of the most intelligent, insightful and compassionate President in our history. I am in tears just writing this!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

blm

(112,920 posts)
4. So true.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:06 AM
Mar 2020

Especially, for Kamala, the abrupt pivots to Who will she endorse? - as if that was the most important feature of her candidacy.

Thanks for this post, Starfish.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

DownriverDem

(6,206 posts)
33. In some ways
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:47 AM
Mar 2020

it is very important who she endorsed. Beating trump was the main reason folks gave as important on Super Tuesday.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
7. How can support of Joe Biden be racist when he has overwhelming AA support?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:13 AM
Mar 2020

My priority is to shit can Orange Hitler in part because he is racist. I am a white male but I have as much at stake here as anyone. I will not apologize for supporting the person whom I believe to have the best chance of removing traitors and Nazis and restoring our democracy. That is simply an unreasonable and wholly unnecessary demand.

The collective will of our party, our coalition, is good. We are diverse. We are worthy. I celebrate and applaud that. You should do that too.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LaurenOlimina

(1,165 posts)
9. Nobody said "support of Joe Biden is racist."
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:18 AM
Mar 2020

But consider your virtue signaled.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Sloumeau

(2,657 posts)
12. I have no idea where that "Joe Biden is a racist" thing came from.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:26 AM
Mar 2020

Perhaps sometimes we look so hard for things we see them when they are not even there? I have no idea.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
13. First sentence of the OP
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:29 AM
Mar 2020

"...those of us who felt the same way about Kamala Harris' departure had been shown the same empathy and time and space that many are now insisting they be given to grieve Warren's departure. v

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LaurenOlimina

(1,165 posts)
16. What?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:34 AM
Mar 2020

"Like many women, I'm deeply disappointed Warren's out of the race."

You do understand that refers to the primary race, right?

When she discusses racism and sexism, she isn't accusing Joe Biden of being racist. It's more of a systemic argument.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
24. For the second and final time that isn't the point I made.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:39 AM
Mar 2020

And I was clear both times, so I will not respond to your straw.man.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Sloumeau

(2,657 posts)
25. I have no idea how you get...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:39 AM
Mar 2020

"Joe Biden is a racist" out of that sentence. Is it because the name "Kamala Harris" appears in that sentence?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
18. Including me. That was not what I said.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:34 AM
Mar 2020

The OP suggested that sexism and racism were at play in the primary. I vehemently disagree.

Can I disagree without being accused of "virtue signaling?"

I am proud to be a Democrat. I oppose Democrat bashing. If you have a problem with that then you have a problem, not me.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Sloumeau

(2,657 posts)
34. I don't think the OP was necessarily saying that the candidates were being...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:48 AM
Mar 2020

sexist and racist to each other. I mean, there may have been a little of that between the candidates. I am not the best judge of that. However, I suspect that she was mainly referring more to the huge amount of sexism and racism in American society in general and the world in general. This would refer to, for example, both direct sexism and the fear of the impact of sexism.

For example, some people might not vote for Kamala Harris because she was a woman. In addition, some people might not vote for Kamala Harris out of fear that other people might not vote for her. So, even if a voter might not be very sexist himself (or perhaps, herself, who knows?), that voters' fears about the sexism of others could also affect Kamala Harris. The same kind of double whammy could impact Kamala Harris because of her skin color.

So, you could have people not voting for her to become the nominee because they are sexist, people not voting for her out of fears that others might be sexist, people not voting for her because she is Black, and people not voting for her out of the fear that others might not vote for her because she is Black. This is the quadruple whammy that Kamala Harris had to deal with. I suspect that this was what the OP was more focused on.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
37. I think the usual suspects, intent upon bashing Democrats, are having at it.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:52 AM
Mar 2020

Professor Plum wtote: "The bad news is that a lot of people seem to be mistaking her loss in the polls with sexism."

I agree.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Sloumeau

(2,657 posts)
40. I believe that those of us who may perhaps be less sexist...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:03 AM
Mar 2020

may not fully realize the impact of sexism because we may not fully realize how truly sexist some others in this country are. Here's another way to look at it. Imagine that just 5% of the men in this country are really and truly sexist. There is a small group of White Men in this country that hold an awful lot of wealth in this country, and have an awful lot of power. Unfortunately, a big slice of them are also sexist, and a lot of them are also racist. Without the support of these White men, the odds of a woman, of any color, making it the top are greatly lowered.

There is also a slice of men in this country who are both sexist and racist. I know this because I have dealt with them my entire life. These are the people who are less likely to vote for either a woman or a person of color. Many political races are decided by just a few percentage points, so it does not take a big percentage of people to feel this way in order to prevent many women and people of color from getting elected.

Women are about 51% of the American population. Do they make up 51% of the elected offices that are available in this country? It's not even close to that. So, ask yourself why that is.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
41. Ok, but not every instance of voting for a white male...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:06 AM
Mar 2020

Is sexist or racist.

There is such a thing as taking it too far.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Sloumeau

(2,657 posts)
49. You are correct.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:14 AM
Mar 2020

Just because you vote for a white male does not make you racist or sexist. I do no believe that the OP was trying to say that everyone who votes for a white male is racist and/or sexist. There are men, for example, who really are not very racist or sexist at all. I do not believe that OP was not saying that all men are racist or all men are sexist.

I believe that she was saying that sexism and racism are prevalent enough in this country to make a real difference in political races. If just 5% of the men in this country are racist and sexist, that is enough to make the difference, because there might be other people thinking, "Hey, I know this country has racist and sexist people in it, so maybe a woman or a person of color should not be the nominee because that person might lose".

It's not just racism and sexism that makes the difference. It is the fear of racism or sexism making a difference that also makes a difference.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
50. And just because someone votes for woman or minority doesn't mean they're not racist or sexist
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:15 AM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
56. It isn't.going to be perfect, either way
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:31 AM
Mar 2020

And we may be talking past each other.

Someone has to win. Personally I don't care at this point. As I keep saying I am a.single issue voter: throw Orange Hitler and his cult out on his ass.

I may be too intolerant of disunity because of that. Or maybe I'm right in that we can address perfecting things after our current crises passes?

So perhaps I am not addressing your point and perhaps you're not addressing mine?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
53. But the OP does suggest that is what is at play in the Democratic primary
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:22 AM
Mar 2020

And then I am attacked personally for disagreeing.

My problem here, as I clearly stated, is that I see the OP as bashing Democrats. I find that judgment to be unfair.

I am entitled to that opinion and also entitled to object to ad hominem and straw man responses.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mcar

(42,210 posts)
59. Who said that?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:40 AM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
61. Who said what? That there is such a thing as taking it too far?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:45 AM
Mar 2020

Me.

I said that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
42. I ask myself why a majority of uneducated white women voted for Orange Hitler
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:08 AM
Mar 2020

I am baffled by that and have not heard a good answer from anyone.

I have not denied that sexism exists, if that is what you're getting at.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
45. You haven't denied sexism exists, but you seem to see racism and sexism only as abstract concepts
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:11 AM
Mar 2020

while having difficulty recognizing and acknowledging them in specific, concrete circumstances.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
51. I didn't address that either
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:16 AM
Mar 2020

Instead of speaking about my person in terms of what you think I seem to be, why not address what I actually said?

It's kind an ad hominem when you create a narrative about what I, personally, "seem to see."

You really aren't qualified to condescend to me that way.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Bettie

(15,998 posts)
64. Religion
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:55 AM
Mar 2020

evangelicals teach girls from birth that women belong in the home and do not ever belong in any sort of position where they'd be above a man.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
67. Oh yes, among other perverse ideas.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:02 AM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MrsCoffee

(5,801 posts)
81. Of course you agree.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:37 AM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
87. In this instance, yes
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:58 AM
Mar 2020

There is nothing unethical, illegal, or immoral about me not agreeing 100% with you. Is there?

I support women but go ahead and bash me and alienate me. That will help your cause immensely.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MrsCoffee

(5,801 posts)
91. Denial helps no one.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 12:18 PM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
95. Except I didn't deny anything.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 01:06 PM
Mar 2020

I was debating a fine point that apparently is a bridge too far for certain emotional people.

Granted, my frustration is an emotion too. As a Jew I don't seek to alienate my allies and I don't get it when people with whom I 90% agree attack me and diminish me because I have an honest difference of opinion on the 10%. I don't operate that way and as a member of a tiny minority I don't get it when others react in an illogical manner.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
100. Institutional racism and patriarchy...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 08:18 PM
Mar 2020

absolutely were in play. What makes you think it was not?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PunkinPi

(4,870 posts)
14. No one said supporting Joe Biden is racist and no, you as a white male,
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:29 AM
Mar 2020

don't have as much at stake as women, and specifically BIPOC women. Good grief.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
22. Really?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:37 AM
Mar 2020

Who made you the judge? You don't even know me yet you feel you can tell me that I have less.at stake?

Geez yourself.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PunkinPi

(4,870 posts)
31. Yes, really.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:45 AM
Mar 2020

Who's legislating your body?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
66. Who's polluting the air I breathe and the water I drink?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:00 AM
Mar 2020

Who's destroying the rule of law that I live.by? Who's destroying federal land? Who's undermining everything with incessant lying and corruption?

I have a wife and two daughters.

Sorry but as a fellow human being I decree that I have as much at stake as you or anyone else, and I further renew my decree that you are way out of line in trying to diminish me.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PunkinPi

(4,870 posts)
72. I'm not trying to diminish you...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:25 AM
Mar 2020

because the things you listed are a shared reality we *all* face. You are rightfully concerned about those things, those things concern me as well.

But on top of the things you listed, your reproductive rights aren't up for dispute, you aren't 3xs more likely to die in childbirth, you aren't more likely to be racially profiled and jailed, etc., those are just facts that women and BIPOC face daily and you don't.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
76. The fact that you face some difficulties doesn't take away from the fact that women and minorities
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:32 AM
Mar 2020

must deal with additional challenges.

The bottom line is that the problems you identified are problems for everyone - and they aren't targeted at you because of your race or gender.

In other words, you may have problems that make life more difficult for you, but those problems have nothing to do with you being a white male.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cary

(11,746 posts)
83. Again you talk past me.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:49 AM
Mar 2020

I hate these discussions. I deal in facts and logic, not emotions and logical fallacies.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
112. Of course. It's just baiting and disruption. Best to ignore.
Sat Mar 7, 2020, 10:30 AM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LaurenOlimina

(1,165 posts)
8. I've been told to quit throwing a pity party just this morning.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:16 AM
Mar 2020

I've heard all of these yesterday except race.

" stop complaining: "race and gender had nothing to do with it," "she was playing by the same rules as everyone else," "she just didn't have what it takes," "no one forced her out of the race, it was her choice,"

That said, you aren't wrong. Klobuchar didn't get much consideration either, nor Gillibrand.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Baitball Blogger

(46,576 posts)
10. Not sure what you're talking about. I felt the loss when Kamala Harris dropped out.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:19 AM
Mar 2020

But the cover story for her departure was money. Odd how Biden only needed vocal support from James Clyburn to activate the base that got him over the edge, but the same demographics would have had to give heavy financially to bolster Kamala Harris and Cory Booker.

Maybe it does come down to reading the rules and playing the game?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

eilen

(4,950 posts)
122. You can't ignore the relationships that Biden
Sun Mar 8, 2020, 07:18 AM
Mar 2020

has built over the years. He has a history with his colleagues that Warren, Klobuchar, Harris and Booker haven't yet built. Add to that his experience in the Executive branch.

Ultimately, Warren had a very poor showing on Super Tuesday with voters and there was no pathway.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
125. This is true. And it is a perfect example of the advantages white men have thanks to the history of
Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:33 AM
Mar 2020

gender and racial bias - Biden, by virtue of his white male privilege, had the opportunity to build up relationships and foster a "history with his colleagues that Warren, Klobuchar, Harris and Booker haven't yet built." And his experience in the executive branch - i.e., being Vice President - is also another advantage heretofore available exclusively to white men.

As I said in another post:

Like many male politicians, Biden and Sanders have benefitted from having been able to build up a well of experience and goodwill as a result of getting into politics at a time when most women didn't have that option. Biden became a Senator when he was just 30 years old and spent the next 40 years developing his chops. Bernie became a Congressman and then a Senator when few women had that opportunity.

Elizabeth Warren, who is close to Biden's and Bernie's ages, had no opportunity to become a Senator in the early 1970s. Like many women of her age, she had to take a different path - in her case, she raised a family and then went into academia, a field open to smart, talented women when politics was still very restricted.

But while academia was open to women, like many endeavors that women were able to excel in, it is not treated as a "real" qualification for high public office. So, when Warren did finally get a chance to run for office, she had to start proving herself without the advantage of pointing to the previous 40 years of her experience, as Biden could do.

Biden had 40+ years and Bernie had three decades to establish themselves. Warren had to start from scratch only a few years ago.

And that additional time in the public arena bought Biden and Bernie a lot of goodwill and second chances that Warren (and Harris and Klobuchar) didn't have. When the the men made mistakes and gaffes, they were often brushed away with "Oh, that's just Biden!" and "We all know what Bernie meant." When the women did the same, they were criticized, scrutinized and subjected to endless discussion about whether they were ready or had what it takes. While it was assumed that, of course, the men could be taken seriously as candidates and they were able to focus all of their interviews and airtime on what they would do as president, the women had to spend a significant part of their interviews and airtime answering endless questions about whether America was ready for anyone of their gender to be president (and Kamala got the double whammy of having to explain, ad nauseum, why she thought America was ready for a black woman to be president).

These and other things handicapped the women and made it more difficult for them to get a foothold and deliver their message. Voters didn't need to engage in overtly racist and sexist decisionmaking in order for racism and sexism to affect the campaign and their vote.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=642287


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
11. On the bright side we have Senator Warren
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:22 AM
Mar 2020

I think the extra large field of candidates was the only reason Elizabeth Warren didn't have a large enough early 'piece of the pie'. Her rallies were packed with supporters with many great speeches. She's brilliant, we Americans are so fortunate EW will always be on our side.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

duforsure

(11,882 posts)
15. And many men too,
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:31 AM
Mar 2020

Are very disappointed the American people didn't back her run. She in my opinion was the most intelligent, compassionate honest candidate running, and would have made one of the greatest presidents in our times. American people's lost.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Sloumeau

(2,657 posts)
17. This is one of the reasons that I would like Biden...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:34 AM
Mar 2020

to pick a woman of color as VP. Women of color have to deal with seemingly double the garbage that White women and Men of Color deal with. I'd still pretty be happy if Biden picked a woman as VP who also happened to be White. Warren, for example, would make an awesome President or VP. However, a Black woman as VP would also say to Black America, "Hey, we are there for you too".

I hope Biden wins, and I hope that he makes the 4000 appointments that has to make as President completely represent the rainbow of colors, national origins, and lifestyles that makes America beautiful.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

luvtheGWN

(1,336 posts)
85. There are several women of colour to choose from:
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:53 AM
Mar 2020

Kamala Harris
Stacey Abrams
Val Demings

to name just 3.

But is it really necessary? I think it's necessary to choose a woman as a running mate. Which one of the many (Senators, Reps, Governors) would carry the most votes in the most states?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Wounded Bear

(58,440 posts)
19. Kamala was my first choice...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:35 AM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

johnthewoodworker

(694 posts)
20. I'm a 60 y.o. white male. I don't consider myself sexist or racist. I don't choose my candidates
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:35 AM
Mar 2020

based on their demographic particulars. I look at their character and stance on issues. I thought, and think, Elizabeth Warren is the superior candidate. She is an empathic, sharp, human being. I feel that Bernie and Joe are a step down from her level.
As always, I'll support the democratic nominee, but her dropping out is a significant loss.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

PunkinPi

(4,870 posts)
21. Thank you, StarfishSaver for the thoughtful OP.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:36 AM
Mar 2020

Seems some still don't get it, so I'm posting this again.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MD shmoo

(34 posts)
23. Sexism wasn't the cause
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:37 AM
Mar 2020

There were two core reasons why she's out of the race. First, her stunning inability to give straight answers to simple questions like "would your healthcare plan raise taxes?" It simply does not matter if that was a "gotcha" question or if she was looking at things from the perspective of total costs. When you have someone in your ideological lane that is honest to a fault and to his sometimes detriment (Bernie willing to admit taxes will go up for M4A, or that Cuba is to be admired in some respects like their education system, etc.) that makes you look like a weasel in comparison. With the sheer volume of lying done by Trump, giving the impression that you're willing to lie or avoid tough questions but to a lesser degree just doesn't fly. And yeah it's not like Joe is without fault here, but he's generally perceived to say untruthful/misleading things because "it's a gaffe" instead of deliberately misleading. People can seemingly forgive untruths like "I was arrested in South Africa seeing Nelson Mandela" easier than they can not answering simple yes/no questions about taxes and such.

Secondly she tried and failed to create a narrative of being a "uniter" who can offer something to both big camps in the current Dem party. To those wanting big structural changes with zero compromises made (Bernie) she was a pale imitation that offered nothing Bernie did not. And to those wanting a "return to normalcy" and feeling burnt out by the constant and wearisome shitshow that is the Trump presidency, she didn't represent the boring/stable parental figure that will allow them to not need to worry about and focus on politics 24/7, for whom Joe is the "don't worry I got this" candidate (for right or wrong). In so doing she didn't satisfy the core yearnings of either camp.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/03/05/elizabeth-warren-quits-2020-democratic-race-but-women-can-win-column/4962971002/

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MD shmoo

(34 posts)
39. "Yes it was" - really?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:01 AM
Mar 2020

So your position is the party that nominated Hillary Clinton as its POTUS candidate in just the last cycle has somehow become incredibly more misogynist in the past 4 years? If you can't acknowledge the very real issues I pointed out in my post you quoted about Warren's inability to give straight answers and not being in sync with the mood of the times and want to rely on "it's misogyny!" then you're doing a grave disservice to future women candidates. You're giving a pass for the next Warren to say "I can be less than honest and that's OK because my primary obstacle is that I'm a woman." At some point you need to say "there are minimal standards we hold all our candidates to regardless of sex, and that includes honesty."

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
46. You really think nominating Hillary Clinton is proof that misogyny no longer exists in the party?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:13 AM
Mar 2020

Do you also believe that the the fact that Barack Obama was elected president is proof that racism no longer exists in America?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ismnotwasm

(41,921 posts)
54. I'm going to work
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:23 AM
Mar 2020

And I’m done arguing basic sociology and societal societal power structures today.

Instead, I’m going to go participate in one.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
113. People don't want to hear about any reason other than
Sat Mar 7, 2020, 10:49 AM
Mar 2020

women lost because of sexism which is absurd. There is little doubt that Warren is a true master at knowledge of issues. She is highly verbal with an amazing level of instant recall. Yet imho she wasn't savvy enough to realize she couldn't unilaterally trash all big business without alienating many people. Those who actually work in business and those in the middle who are far more comfortable with incremental change.

She and Bernie would be laughed out of any boardroom asking for trillions without presenting a phased in, incremental plan with constraints and full financial proformas. Like what you would do with the millions of workers in private health care for instance.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MD shmoo

(34 posts)
117. Besides that Biden has decades more relevant experience
Sat Mar 7, 2020, 03:46 PM
Mar 2020

Evidently gender is the only qualification that matters to some. It just cannot possibly be that voters looked at his decades of Senate experience and 8 years being VP to her 7 years of only Senate experience and chose him on the merits. Nope the only possible reason to pick the more experienced candidate was misogyny.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
120. All true, and the one simple fact - more Dems voted
Sun Mar 8, 2020, 12:16 AM
Mar 2020

for him than the others. People have found in Joe, the antithesis of trump. Joe is good, kind, decent, trustworthy. Plus he has a lifetime of experience in government both domestically and internationally. He will get us over the hump (trump) restore honor and dignity and reverse all the damage trump has caused. Step one.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,280 posts)
84. No candidate is perfect. But before criticizing Warren for failing to give straight answers
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:52 AM
Mar 2020

and not being a "uniter," take a good look at Sanders, who has never been able to explain how he expects to pay for his very expensive proposals - indeed, Bernie is a master at avoiding straight answers - and is probably the furthest from a unifying candidate of any of them. But he gets away with it where she didn't, even though he's much worse.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MD shmoo

(34 posts)
89. You're correct it's not fair
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 12:08 PM
Mar 2020

that Bernie seems to get a pass for being evasive, but is that really what you want for Warren (and our country in turn)? Trump supporters and Bernie Bros both have the ability to "look past" the omissions and truth massaging of their preferred candidate to hear what they want to hear from them. Is that something to be admired and voted for in other candidates going forward? I personally don't think it should. While I understand frustration that "Warren is being held to a higher standard" I think that's a problem of perspective the frustration isn't "why do Trump and Bernie get held to lower standards?"

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,280 posts)
90. The question is: Why does Bernie get a pass for being evasive and Warren didn't?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 12:12 PM
Mar 2020

Especially when Bernie has elevated evasiveness almost to an art form while Warren was at least able to present some specifics about her proposals. Women are always held to higher, if not impossible, standards and are criticized for not meeting them, while men who don't even come close get a pass. Bernie is Exhibit A.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MD shmoo

(34 posts)
92. Why does Bernie get a pass?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 12:28 PM
Mar 2020

While I know that's a rhetorical question, there are some plausible reasons.

1. He's not getting a pass. Bernie is getting the votes of about 25% or primary voters who will choose the perceived "most progressive" candidate in the race no matter what. The "grownups" portion of the electorate actually cares about truth and answering questions rather than evasion and have not voted for him in turn (thus the Biden surge).

2. The progressive ideological lane doesn't represent a majority of the party, and she and Bernie split that minority. Once the 'moderate" lane cleared for Biden then we saw him surge ahead via consolidating those votes which represent a majority of the current Dem primary voters. In this hypothetical even if Bernie wasn't running she still might not win against a "moderate."

3. Bernie voters have a similar profile to Ron Paul voters a few years ago, it's a cult of personality thing where factors like evasiveness just don't matter to them.

4. Some voters have come to see politics as a form of entertainment. Trump acting like a moron is entertaining to some folks just as the TV show "Jackass" was entertaining to some folks (not me). Sanders is entertaining as an "angry old man" stock character and thus is given a pass for the same reason we give a pass to Archie Bunker or Homer Simpson when they're acting like an ass.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

JGug1

(320 posts)
26. Warren and Harris
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:39 AM
Mar 2020

Correct, the playing field is not level. However, Harris had that business with marijuana where she supposedly laughed when asked if she had used it, after sending users to do hard time. There wasn't a LOT of noise about it but it contributed to her not getting some early votes. She dropped out rather quietly. I would think that she would be a stronger candidate, in the end, than Warren. Warren just has that way of turning every single question into a lecture. I tired of it. We aren't done with Warren or probably Harris. Warren won't, as I have written here before, be on the administration of either Biden or Bernie, should either win. The Dems cannot afford to give up a Senate seat and Mass has a Republican governor who would appoint an interim replacement.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
43. "However, Harris had that business with marijuana ... Warren turned every question into a lecture"
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:08 AM
Mar 2020

That right there.

And, by the way, Harris didn't "get some early votes," because she dropped out of the race before anyone actually voted after polling and media coverage sold the proposition that she wasn't "viable."

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mcar

(42,210 posts)
60. Yep. Women are not allowed even one misstep
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:43 AM
Mar 2020

How many missteps have Biden (who I heartily support) and Sanders been allowed?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

FailureToCommunicate

(13,989 posts)
36. Yes that would have been welcome. Maybe there'll be some consolation if Kamala
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:51 AM
Mar 2020

is picked for VP?

But I agree and shared your feelings.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Bettie

(15,998 posts)
38. At the time she left the race, I was able to discuss it with
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:57 AM
Mar 2020

people in person as I was straddling her campaign and Warren's trying to decide. So, I talked to a lot of people every day and we were all angry about it. Race and gender definitely had a lot to do with it, plus, she was an early target of bots.

Apparently, someone was really afraid of her, is really afraid of women in general.

What makes me really angry is that a bunch of men love to tell us, women who have SEEN up close and personal in our lives what misogyny is, that we're imagining it.

We're not and frankly, gaslighting us isn't going to make us suddenly bow down to men and say "Gee, I guess my silly little woman brain didn't see that there is no sexism anywhere, just men trying to keep all the women from making mistakes!".

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MD shmoo

(34 posts)
44. Women were 57% of NH primary voters
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:09 AM
Mar 2020

And Warren got 9.2% of the vote. At a certain point claiming misogyny when women were already a majority of voters comes across like this:

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
48. You actually posted this in this thread?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:14 AM
Mar 2020

Welcome to DU. I hope you enjoy your stay.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Bettie

(15,998 posts)
68. Right?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:02 AM
Mar 2020

I guess all of us little women just need to go back to the kitchen and make some sandwiches or something and not worry our little minds about politics and government.

I'm at the end of my rope with this crap.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Bettie

(15,998 posts)
52. Right, except that a lot of women
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:17 AM
Mar 2020

do dislike and distrust other women, because they have been taught to do so from the cradle.

Evangelical and very religious women, even among Democrats, tend to believe that women don't belong in government.

Also, why NH in particular? Whatever. I don't care what you think, random dude on the internet.

But, just to make you feel better: You are right. There is no such thing as misogyny or sexism, it's all us silly women imagining thing because we're hysterical and don't always recognize the innate superiority of men.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MD shmoo

(34 posts)
63. Why NH in particular?
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:48 AM
Mar 2020

Okay let's try some other states and let's see if there's a pattern (see below). Women a majority of voters in basically every state, and Warren capturing around 11% of votes. Warren rising in the Real Clear Politics polling average throughout the summer (8% in May up to 26% and the lead in early October), then falling off a cliff in October after being called out on her non-answer about tax increases related to her M4A plan. In her campaign autopsy you can easily pinpoint the cause of death to this exact moment.


CA - women 57% of voters, Warren vote share 12.2% (3rd place) https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/election-results/california-democratic-primary-live-results/

TX - women 56% of voters, Warren vote share 11.4% (4th place) https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/election-results/texas-democratic-primary-live-results/


VA - women 57% of voters, Warren vote share 10.8% (3rd place) https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/election-results/virginia-democratic-primary-live-results/

CO - women 56% of voters, Warren vote share 17.6% (4th place) https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/election-results/colorado-democratic-primary-live-results/



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

brer cat

(24,402 posts)
47. No doubt that race and gender were a big factor
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:13 AM
Mar 2020

for Kamala. She was my first choice and I am still grieving.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Andy823

(11,495 posts)
55. I couldn't agree more.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:25 AM
Mar 2020

Harris was my choice from day one, and Warren and Amy were in my top four along with Jay Inslee, he is my governor.

I hope Harris gets the VP with Biden.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
57. You are absolutely right. K&R n/t
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:36 AM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mcar

(42,210 posts)
58. Thank you
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:37 AM
Mar 2020
I only wish those of us who felt the same way about Kamala Harris' departure had been shown the same empathy and time and space that many are now insisting they be given to grieve Warren's departure.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

llashram

(6,265 posts)
65. the truth
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 10:57 AM
Mar 2020

is presented again on this forum and by god your message WILL BE IGNORED. I know that the grieving process here is reserved only for the American understanding of who shall be grieved and for how long. Move on nothing to be seen here. American patriarchy, as is racism, is so generationally ingrained that here we are in 2020 and all of us here are aware of the real story and only, even here, a few are willing to start a truthful dialogue and open those closet doors to hopefully air out the dirty closets that continually foul our progress as liberals supposedly having each others backs. Enough said about my opinion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/28/opinion/sunday/suffrage-movement-racism-black-women.html
https://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rights/celebrate-womens-suffrage-dont-whitewash-movements-racism
https://suffrage100ma.org/ida-b-wells/
https://www.history.com/news/early-womens-rights-movement-beyond-suffrage

Thank you for even mentioning such an important topic that has continually torn up the china shop many many times and rest assured those bulls are still in that china shop waiting for the place to be cleaned up, the interior whitewashed and the china to be replaced.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MrModerate

(9,753 posts)
69. I really haven't seen anyone saying that racism and sexism had nothing to do with...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:08 AM
Mar 2020

Harris' withdrawal from the race. I think we all acknowledge the problem. Of the three leading women candidates — Warren, Harris and Klobuchar — Warren was the most impressive. That's why she lasted the longest — and had the money and organization to keep going, had she chosen to.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
74. You must not have been paying attention when she dropped out of the race
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:29 AM
Mar 2020

I was constantly told that whenever I brought it up, as were others.

No, we don't all acknowledge the problem. Just look at some of the comments in this thread.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MrModerate

(9,753 posts)
75. Your mileage apparently varies. I didn't see any credible postings suggesting...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:31 AM
Mar 2020

That sexism and racism weren't involved in Harris' unsuccessful campaign.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
77. This isn't about my "mileage" because it's not a case of perception or individual experience
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:34 AM
Mar 2020

The objective fact is that plenty of people here and elsewhere did indeed dismiss race and gender as factors in Harris' race and withdrawal. If you didn't notice it, you weren't paying attention since it was there, in plain sight, for anyone reading this forum to see.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MrModerate

(9,753 posts)
97. Can you quantify any of this? And are you talking about...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 01:17 PM
Mar 2020

…random commenters on social media?

Because if so, you should use the same discount you use on any anonymous poster popping off on unimportant discussion boards.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
104. Scroll up
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 08:25 PM
Mar 2020

The sentiment is right in this very thread. And not just here.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

eilen

(4,950 posts)
123. I liked Amy a lot more than Warren
Sun Mar 8, 2020, 07:30 AM
Mar 2020

who I felt had too many unrealistic promises. Amy was my reality-based candidate who was not pushing 80 and had a solid background of success in elections and a solid message. I could not figure out why she didn't do better in the polls and the early caucus/primaries. In some forums people point to the hit piece about her being a mean boss (really?--that is sexist) and others pointed to her momentary brain freeze on the telemundo question and that her voice shook or she "got defensive" when Pete challenged her ability because she forgot a name which is also sexist in view of the remaining men who have both exhibited emotional volatility, momentary forgetfulness and defensiveness on the debate floor.

Amy was a champ and she gave an awesome speech and endorsement without needing to dangle it as a negotiating prize for a couple days because the woman knows her worth and doesn't need to play those games. She is a rock sold Democrat. I hope I get an opportunity to vote for her in the future.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Fla Dem

(23,352 posts)
70. What a shame. So qualified.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:09 AM
Mar 2020




What will it take to get a female president?
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TryLogic

(1,721 posts)
73. My top three choices were Warren, Klobuchar, and Harris.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:26 AM
Mar 2020

I wish Liz had positioned herself as a problem solver rather than a fighter.
I wish Kamala had not positioned herself so strongly as appearing to favor open borders.
I wish Amy had been more progressive.
I wish Booker had been more of a fighter.
I wish the former WA governor had been more charismatic.
etc.
etc.
etc.

But mostly, I am proud of the many high quality candidates who were willing to step up and offer to lead.

I am reassured by the fact that congress makes the laws and approves the budget, not the president. Regardless of who wins, we have our representatives and senators. We must make sure they hear from us often.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
79. "I wish Liz had positioned herself as a problem solver rather than a fighter ..." but
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:36 AM
Mar 2020

"I wish Booker had been more of a fighter."

Hmm.

Interesting.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

bubbazero

(296 posts)
78. dear StarfishSaver
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:35 AM
Mar 2020

first thanks for the op, I too will miss Sen Warren--loved her work and positions in financial regulation of commerce. As resident of Iowa, (sorry), have said this may have been the worst possible year for ANY democratic woman, no matter ideology. One weird factor, not much reported, is Iowa's Democrats recoiling in horror over Republican legislature and Sen Joni Ernst. Between female republican governor, female speaker of Iowa house of representatives, and Sen Joni Ernst, (all female, all horribly conservative) being a female Democratic candidate with ANY kind of idea for significant change has caused some democrats in Iowa to recoil, almost instinctively. I am not an expert, your WISER thoughts, ( I do enjoy your posts), would be appreciated

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
93. Thanks for this
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 12:54 PM
Mar 2020

You make an interesting point that is very telling about the situation women face:

Between female republican governor, female speaker of Iowa house of representatives, and Sen Joni Ernst, (all female, all horribly conservative) being a female Democratic candidate with ANY kind of idea for significant change has caused some democrats in Iowa to recoil, almost instinctively.


So you're saying - and I don't disagree with you - that too many females in office that people don't like cause Democratic voters not to want to vote for a female presidential candidate. Meanwhile, the fact that offices in the state and across the country are filled with incompetent and/or hateful Neanderthal men doesn't make them recoil from voting for other men.

Therein lies a big part of the problem. Just as the fact that Hillary didn't win the White House makes some people reluctant to back any other woman - even though white men lose presidential elections quite regularly yet white men continue to be nominated - also highlights a significant challenge that women and minorities must face. We are consistently judged and underestimated by the failures of other women and minorities while white men are bolstered and given the benefit of the doubt based on the successes of other white men.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

bubbazero

(296 posts)
99. sorry for the delay, caretaker for elderly mother,
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 02:44 PM
Mar 2020

She's redhead and Danish--(Viking with anger management issues) to your response--the last sentence---WE ARE CONSISTENTLY JUDGED AND UNDERESTIMATED BY THE FAILURES OF OTHER WOMEN AND MINORITIES WHILE WHITE MEN ARE BOLSTERED AND GIVEN THE BENEFEIT BASED ON THE SUCCESS OF OTHER WHITE MEN. Absolutely, in fact one could remove the specifics clearly outlined in that statement and have the basis for a good general description of the stupidity of irrational discrimination of ANY kind. (race, gender, age, appearance, socio-economic background. etc) No time for me to try now, but would love to read your's if you have time-- and I will try later for my education

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Happy Hoosier

(7,081 posts)
80. Lots of us men are disappointed too.... NT
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:37 AM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,280 posts)
82. I really like Warren. I like Harris and Klobuchar, too, and I hope
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:44 AM
Mar 2020

they will either get to be part of Biden's administration or continue their excellent work in the Senate. But it's pretty obvious from the way all of them were treated in the debates and in a lot of media coverage that there is still a lot of sexism and misogyny out there. I also hope Warren endorses Biden and not Sanders because, as the president of NOW just pointed out, Sanders has done almost nothing for women. https://www.newsweek.com/warren-urged-national-organization-women-not-endorse-sanders-1490872

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Zing Zing Zingbah

(6,496 posts)
86. Agreed, I also think Pete got different treatment for being gay.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 11:54 AM
Mar 2020

The playing field was designed by straight white men.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Initech

(99,915 posts)
88. My only hope is that whoever the nominee is picks Warren as their running mate.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 12:04 PM
Mar 2020

Warren would make a great VP no matter who the presidential nominee is - whether it's Biden or Bernie.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,041 posts)
94. tv is still doing too much training of the electorate
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 01:03 PM
Mar 2020

We need some of these conglomerates broken up. They never should have been allowed to consolidate in the first place.

Charlie Rose and Matt Lauer are out, but they are just the tip of this iceberg.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Hekate

(90,202 posts)
96. KnR. Kamala Harris is my Senator, so I supported her early on. ...
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 01:14 PM
Mar 2020

It's a brutal process, and yes, it is sexist as hell.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Peacetrain

(22,836 posts)
98. I think the mourning for Warren has to do with how long she was in the campaign..
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 01:17 PM
Mar 2020

not less empathy for Harris, and for the supporters of Kamala..

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
101. I agree.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 08:21 PM
Mar 2020

I mourned Harris' exit deeply. I'm disappointed even more now, most likely because Warren went the furthest. Devastated for Klobuchar because she deserved way more attention and respect than she got any step of the way.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
102. I started as a Harris supporter
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 08:23 PM
Mar 2020

then I went to Liz then Amy and then back to Liz.

I felt the loss of Kamala deeply....but because there were other women still in the field and Kamala seemingly made the decision without facing primary losses, I guess I didn't see it as much as a rejection of the female candidate but rather a decision by one female candidate. But after the last woman standing was gone and the results of the primaries showed that this country is so completely misogynist, it hurt worse because it seems to show there is no hope even for the future. I expect that i will die without ever having a woman president.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

kimbutgar

(20,882 posts)
105. My 88 year old mother in law was hoping for a female president in her lifetime
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 08:25 PM
Mar 2020

And told me she was sad to see the women drop out. She will vote for Biden now because she thinks Bernie is a communist.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LakeArenal

(28,729 posts)
106. I didn't vote for Harris, Warren, Gillibrand
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 08:26 PM
Mar 2020

Or Booker or Castro and soon Sanders
because they railroaded Al Franken.

No misogyny. Simple fact.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
114. Black woman, White women, Hispanic man, black man
Sat Mar 7, 2020, 10:56 AM
Mar 2020

It didn't matter!!! It's ALL about what people say and do and the way they act.

We are light years from selecting candidates based on gender and what they look like.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LakeArenal

(28,729 posts)
115. Yes. Sometimes they do things that wreck their chances.
Sat Mar 7, 2020, 11:12 AM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
116. And it all depends totally on someone's point of view.
Sat Mar 7, 2020, 01:31 PM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
107. Thank you
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 08:26 PM
Mar 2020

I have a lot more to say, but got frustrated by some of the replies.

Just thank you.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NNadir

(33,368 posts)
108. We could do a lot by choosing a woman as VP.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 08:30 PM
Mar 2020

Any of the three original woman Senators in the race would be excellent.

I personally prefer Senator Harris, because she's young, smart and ethnic.

Senator Warren is definitely an intellectual powerhouse.

I'm less familiar with Amy Klobuchar, but overall I have a very favorable opinion of her.

Stacy Abrams would be good as well.

I personally didn't care who got the nomination as long as it wasn't Sanders, but if I'd had my druthers, I would have loved to see a woman wipe the floor with Trump. I'm fine with Joe Biden, but I would have preferred a woman.

We need to break this steel ceiling, for sure, if not in this election, then ASAP.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

warmfeet

(3,321 posts)
109. Very well said.
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:56 PM
Mar 2020

When, and how, do we level the playing field? Been asking this question for more than 40 years.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
110. Thank you
Fri Mar 6, 2020, 09:59 PM
Mar 2020

And I know you mean well, but I'm tired of being asked that question.

It's time for people to start taking responsible for coming up with their own answers. We all have a role to play and the burden shouldn't be out on individual black people to find the solutions - especially since we didn't create the problem.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

GoneOffShore

(17,309 posts)
118. Just voted for Ms Warren in the overseas primary today. And yes, I knew she has stopped
Sat Mar 7, 2020, 05:32 PM
Mar 2020

her campaign.

But ... still.

The message needed to be sent.

There were at least two votes for her today.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LizBeth

(9,946 posts)
119. I was Harris first and I had exactly the same conversations then, as I am having now.
Sat Mar 7, 2020, 05:36 PM
Mar 2020

I agree. I saw what was happening to Harris and pissed as hell, as each camp was fighting over her, just as I see now with Warren. It is good to have more voices, but it is an often repeated battle, going back to the inherent sexism in our society and the obstacles women have. Beating my head on the wall for a decade now. I call it damn tired of having to continually go back to feminism 101. We should be well past this and we obviously are not. We have to have a woman VP.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

turbinetree

(24,632 posts)
124. Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris and Amy Klobuchar were treated differently
Sun Mar 8, 2020, 11:25 AM
Mar 2020

than the men in the race. Period.

You nailed it and also the media got in the way..............................

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

PatrickforO

(14,516 posts)
126. I did not know you were a woman.
Sun Mar 8, 2020, 12:22 PM
Mar 2020

It's funny on here - we all have these handles, and some, like mine, point you right away to gender. Not that it is particularly important.

But I really always thought of you as being male until this very post.

By the way, I loved Warren too, and she'd have made a wonderful president. She's is a great lady, and to my mind has replaced Teddy as the Lion of the Senate.

Now, sadly, this election will be a battle between septuagenarian white men.

I could have gotten behind Booker, too. I think he'd have been fine. Or Buttigieg for that matter.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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