The benefit of the Democrats denouncing Sanders's selfishness

[Gothmog]

I am tired of sanders and his supporters demanding that we bend a knee and anoint sanders as the nominee. It may be better to simply give up on the 15% who will not vote for any real Democrat and move on

Link to tweet

If you are in the search for silver linings, one benefit of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) pointlessly continuing his losing campaign is the freedom for Democrats to denounce him and his anti-party escapades. After years of humoring him, the vast majority of Democrats, from super-progressives to moderates, can now say out loud what they’ve said quietly: It has always been about Bernie. It’s not a movement, but rather a vanity project. ....

The problem, according to many Democrats, remains that 15 percent of Sanders supporters say in polling that they would vote for President Trump over Biden. This nugget actually makes the opposite argument: There is nothing that would satisfy some faction of the Sanders coalition that would rather blow up our democracy and reelect Trump. With people so irrational, the best response is to ignore them. They, like the MAGA-hat crowd, are unreachable and cannot be bargained with (e.g., more New Green Deal talk!). So do not try. No more outreach to Sanders, no more promised policy modifications, no more speaking slot at the convention. Enough

This would have some salutary effects.

First, it would make perfectly clear that Biden is not Sanders and not a crazy left-winger, as Trump would like to paint him in the campaign. Biden makes a sharp distinction between the “democratic socialist” crowd and his own brand of center-left politics. Since he cannot get the 15 percent of “Bernie or Bust” Democrats (or independents), he might as well make a strong play for moderate independents and disaffected Republicans. Cutting Sanders off effectively allows Biden to pitch to gettable swing voters, not waste time on unattainable Bernie Bros.

Second, freezing out Sanders will make governance in a Biden administration much easier and more cohesive. There will be no debt to be paid to Sanders, no advisers taken on to satisfy Sanders, and no weird and distracting policy initiatives to lead the new administration astray. This would be a center-left administration confident of its own governing agenda — and personally cohesive.

Third, it would free up constructive, smart progressive leaders such as Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) to lead that wing of the party. She has already begun that process, contributing bankruptcy and student loan forgiveness plans to the Biden campaign. With a practical, crafty progressive in the Senate (hopefully in the majority and able to lead on legislation), Biden would be able to broaden his appeal and cultivate allies in the Warren wing of the party.

In other words, shoving Sanders offstage opens up room for party builders and party reformers, putting aside unattainable proposals (e.g., Medicare-for-all) in favor of a smarter, more broadly acceptable agenda. (Biden would not need to fend off a Warren primary challenge, as Barack Obama did with Sanders in 2012.)

The party is never going to make the 15% to 25% of sanders supporters happy. 25% of sanders supporters either voted for trump, voted for a third party candidate like Stein or stayed home

Link to tweet

I am tired of trying to appease sanders supporters who are not going to be happy and there are real benefits in moving on and ignoring these voters.

[OnDoutside]

1. Many of us have been saying this for weeks.

[The Magistrate]

2. The Irregulars Point The Way For The Heavy Horse, Sir

The columns catch up eventually with the screen....





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Cha]

3. yep.. it's over.

[zackymilly]

12. This one's for you, Bernie.

[link:

|

[emmaverybo]

230. Beautiful song. Perfect for the occasion. Thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed. And with all due

wistfulness, do hope we never try again.

[mcar]

4. About damn time!

[comradebillyboy]

5. It's about time...

[brer cat]

6. K&R

[Ellen Forradalom]

7. My own brother in 2016

told me he wasn't going to vote for that neoliberal warmonger Hillary, but instead for a "real woman, Jill Stein." This in Wisconsin, where his vote made a real difference in the outcome. Shame on him forever.

[Thekaspervote]

8. Bernie himself could do a lot towards getting his followers to vote for our nominee

Anybody but me think that won’t happen?

[The Magistrate]

9. He Has Form, Sir, He Will Do What He Can...

Everyone ought to be clear --- 'Bernie' could not rein these people in, even if he wanted to. They are largely his creation, and without them, he is nothing. But 'Bernie' cannot control them, he cannot lead them. He has 'called up that which he cannot put down' and they would turn on 'Bernie' in a flash if he sought to actually negotiate in good faith, and accept terms for agreement to lend support to Mr. Biden in the general election.

In his statements about his 'support' for Mrs. Clinton in 2016, 'Bernie' flat lies.

He did not do what he had to do to be an effective campaigner for her in 2016. He needed to apologize. He needed to say he was wrong, that there was no basis whatever for the smears of 'rigged election' and 'corruption' his campaign leveled against Mrs. Clinton. He needed to tell his supporters unequivocally to stand down at the convention, and to ask the credentials of those delegates of his who disrupted be revoked, and the disruptors be expelled. He needed, when he made campaign speeches, to speak only of Mrs. Clinton, and what a fine President she would be, rather than simply trim his stump speech with a few compliments, and proceed to boasting about his 'success' in the primaries and how he was the future of the Party.

'Bernie' of course could not do any of this. He still lives in the 'chicks make coffee and worship radical warriors' mindset he acquired as a young college Marxist. The very idea of 'Bernie' apologizing to a woman, of taking a backseat to a woman, acknowledging a woman beat him fair and square....


"Your attitude is noticed! Oh, yes, it is noticed!"





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[OnDoutside]

10. Great post.

[Thekaspervote]

13. I really was speaking more about those that support sanders, but not the cultish group

That is his majority.

Polls show approx 15-20% are willing to vote for the democratic nominee, even if it isn’t sanders. Every vote will count

I disagree that he will do what he can. He and his wife released a statement following the nov 16 election that he and his wife had voted, that it was more important they voted than who they voted for. In other words they did not vote for HRC!

[The Magistrate]

14. Those Who Are Not Devotees, Sir

Can be expected to do the right thing. And do it without overmuch courting. The risk of 'Bernie' continuing is that each day, more well-meaning supporters may be caught up in the cult. The sooner 'Bernie' packs it in, the smaller the group of fanatics. Who, while they will certainly turn on Sanders (and he will deserve every outlandish smear and slur they will direct at him if he stands down), simply have to be written off. They are not retrievable.

I doubt Sanders really does have much to contribute in his own right. He has never shown any ability to 'work and play well with others' in the Senate or the House. No legislative accomplishments anyone can detect, and people have looked. His specialty seems to be claiming credit for other people's work. A great many people actively dislike him, to it mildly. His involvement in the national campaign would allow the enemy to make some use of the 'Crazy Commie Bernie' line ('Just who does support Biden? Let's look at Crazy Commie Bernie...'), and while it would not have anything like the effect it would if Sanders was on the ticket, it would be of some use, especially with targeted social media messages. Put bluntly, the best thing the man could do for the cause is to sit down and shut up, and do it immediately.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Thekaspervote]

17. "Those that might be on the fence" that is all I refer to.

As I stated, (you as well) I understand his cult is not reachable. The kind of fringe groups that sanders attracted are always out there, just more visible due to social media.

I’m sure thou the 12- 20% that will eventually vote for the nominee would like to hear from their original candidate of choice... that he’s giving a vote for Biden his “blessing.”

don’t think me argumentative..it’s not my nature

[The Magistrate]

19. I Do Hope We Have Not Mis-Read One Another, Sir

My understanding of the data is that something between 80% and 90% of people willing to vote for Sanders in the primary can be relied on in November to vote for Mr. Biden in the general election, and that it is only a small proportion of people marking ballots for 'Bernie' whom we must, with regret of course, write off and consign to the perdition awaiting those who assist the cheap thug Trump and his crew, whether directly or indirectly. These 'dead-enders' cannot be reached, and Sanders' good-hearted supporters are already on on the right side of things, and will not really need much courting....

[Thekaspervote]

44. No ...haven't mis read, but there are many polls that show up to 50+% of sanders voters say they

Will not vote for the eventual nominee

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-poll-warren-biden-2020-nominee-emerson-college-1483831

This poll is from January and I hope the number has softened. It’s a particularly hard thing to quantify since only 6% of voters 18-29, (sanders base) bothered to vote on ST and only 7% on ST2.

My concern, sanders campaign rallies got the most rousing cries when he told the crowd he would “take on the democratic establishment” as if we were the enemy...always working to turn young voters against the Democratic Party.

I cannot put into words how much that makes me despise him

Have a good evening, stay safe and stay well!

[The Magistrate]

49. People Talk A Lot Of Smack, Sir, Before Actually Stepping Up

'Protest votes' generally dwindle as election day nears. In 2016, roughly a quarter of Sanders' voters did not vote for Mrs. Clinton. Sanders has less support in 2020. Given the reduction in turnout for him among groups which do favor him, and the loss to him of demographics in which many votes were cast for him as votes against Mrs. Clinton rather than as votes for Sanders, he may be taken to have less intense support this year as well.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gothmog]

27. sanders did indeed lie about supporting Hillary Cinton earlier

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[The Magistrate]

29. The Convention Performance Was Disgraceful, Sir, And Infuriating

I repeat that a serious apology was needed, and was not forthcoming.

The man has no class, no class at all.

[Gothmog]

31. I was at the Texas delegation breakfast where there was a mini riot

Normally going to a national convention is a once in a life time experience. I have worked really hard inside the party on campaigns and voter protection issues for a very long time to earn this trip. Too bad that sanders and his vetted delegates ruined that experience and did their best to help trump. A candidate has absolute approval rights over their pledged delegates because these delegates can change their votes and these delegates represent the candidate and campaign. I helped vet Clinton delegates and I know that I was vetted. The Clinton campaign told us that we represent her and that our actions would reflect on her and her campaign.

In contrast, sanders sent one very weak text the Sunday night before the convention and then did little or nothing to control his delegates. It was nasty I was there when the sanders delegates booed Congressman John Lewis. I was warned about this stunt 30 minutes before it happened by the Clinton campaign whip. According to my whip, sanders was asked to stop this event and declined. There were some pissed off members of the Georgia delegation (Texas and Georgia shared a bus to the convention site).

I was at the Texas delegation breakfast when a group of sanders delegates marched in and demanded that we condemn Clinton and change our votes to sanders.

sanders spoke to the Texas delegation the next morning and his speech was again solely about himself. There was a mini-riot due to his delegates the prior morning and the only thing that sanders talked about was himself. sanders did nothing to deal with the fact that his delegates were out of control and did nothing to try to help Hillary Clinton win the general election.

Finally a group of sanders delegates yelled at my daughter and called her the c-Word because she would not try to get me to change my vote. Again sanders was asked to tell his delegates to behave during the convention and sanders refused

sanders has not apologized for this conduct and made no attempt to control his delegates.

[BlueLucy]

45. Damn! Thanks for sharing that.

I wonder if they will have state conventions this year? Do you know how that would work?

[Gothmog]

50. The Texas state Convention will be virtual

I have seen some of the concepts discussed

[BlueLucy]

53. That's good.

Probably not as fun but it doesn't sound like they are fun when Bernie is involved.

[dhol82]

226. This!

[oldsoftie]

11. The 12% for Trump may very well have been what put him over the top. nt

[Lonestarblue]

18. Hard to say without knowing which states they were in.

I did a calculation recently after reading a WaPo article that said Bernie would need to win 60% of the remaining delegates to have a path. He doesn’t have a path even then. If Biden wins only 40%, a highly unlikely result, he would still go to the convention only a few votes short of 1,991. Bernie would still be further behind Biden in delegate count, but neither would have the number needed. The first vote could give the nomination to Biden IF the other candidates vote their delegates for Biden on that round, including Elizabeth Warren. If they wait for the second round, the superdelegates can vote. Given that they are the Democratic “establishment” that Bernie and his supporters have bashed for months, few of them will vote for him and Biden becomes the nominee on the second vote.

In order to have a path to the nomination, Bernie needs 70-80% of remaining votes. That will not happen. He needs to drop out now and try to bring his supporters around to working with and voting for Biden. Anything else runs a big risk if Trump winning.

[yaesu]

15. must be a slow news day or people are extremely bored. nt

[Hekate]

219. Bored with Bernie fantasies that are still bleeding us while Dems have real work to do, that's all.

Yaesu posted: "must be a slow news day or people are extremely bored."

[thegoose]

16. Right?

He was on the teevee today blathering at Andrea Mitchell (another ugh) and I just wanted them both to fuck off.

[James48]

20. You missed the point.

The point is- people who voted for Trump in 2016 are now Bernie supporters.

How many Trump supporters is Biden able to bring in to vote for him?

[The Magistrate]

24. That Is Nonesense, Sir

A goodly number of people who voted for 'Bernie' in 2016 had no intention of voting for him in the general election. As an example, some 40% of those who voted for Sanders' in the West Virginia primary told exit pollsters they would vote for Trump even if Sanders got the nomination.

The energy in this election comes from middle of the road types grown disgusted by the cheap thug, and the passion of rank and file Democrats who hate the cheap thug like poison. Anything much by way of concession to 'Bernie' will repel the former group and enrage the latter group.

'Bernie' is a dead weight, and a dead loss, no matter how you look at him this year.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gothmog]

26. At least some of the vote for sanders in early states were GOP Operation Chaos vote

Operation Chaos was active in the early states including South Carolina

Link to tweet

Some of the votes for sanders in the early states were clearly GOP voters voting for the weakest possible general election candidate.

Link to tweet

Even with help from the GOP, sanders was not impressive in the early states

[The Magistrate]

28. I Expect So, Sir

If we must have primaries, they ought to be closed, with only registered Democrats casting ballots.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."




"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[warmfeet]

21. The reality,

Bernie is not going to win the nomination. Also a reality, we living, rational beings need as much help as we can get to defeat our current disaster in chief. If we cannot come together to defeat a common threat, I have no hope for the future of this country or the inhabitants of it.

At this point, the goal is to defeat the threat to our way of life and to our very lives.

Do Bernie Sanders supporters really want DJT in a second term as POTUS? Do they think they have some magical power to survive such a term?

I am opposed to such irrational thinking. I will do everything in my power to make sure we have a Democrat in the white house come next January.

Bernie supporters will suffer just as much as everyone else if the orange abomination wins reelection. Perhaps they do not care?

[Rizen]

22. I'm a Sanders supporter and I hate people who don't vote democrat.

Ever since 2016. People who didn't vote for Clinton when she got the nomination betrayed Sanders and the same goes for this election's nominee.

[The Magistrate]

30. I Applaud Your Sentiments, Sir

However, I do suspect those of his supporters who in 2016 did not vote for Mr. Clinton did exactly what Sanders wanted them to do.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."




"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

23. Why short circuit the process?

Why do you think annoying Sanders supporters is going to being them into the fold in the fall?


If you end the process early, no matter the odds, they are going to have a legitimate gripe that it wasn't fair.

Please refrain from the hand-wringing and let the process work as it was designed. Joe Biden is not the weak candidate you seem to think he is.

[McKim]

25. Excellent Post

This is an excellent post. It is time to stop the bashing of the Sanders supporters. I have been supporting Sanders because I want Universal Government Healthcare like they have in Europe. My daughter is an MD MPH now battling Coronavirus and her health is at risk because we do not have universal health care and we do not have an adequate public health system. She has been practicing medicine for some time now with one hand tied behind her back because congress is in the back pocket of the insurance “industry”. Sanders is offering the best health care system and wow do we ever need it now!

[Gothmog]

36. How is sanders going to get this plan adopted in the real world??

In the real world, no one in congress is going to be paying attention to sanders unless and until sanders is able to generate his magical voter revolution in the real world. I admit that I never considered sanders to be a serious candidate and never understood sanders appeal. sanders has no significant legislative accomplishments in his time in Congress in large part because sanders never bothered to attempt to get his fellow members of congress to support his programs. In the real world, it takes hard work and getting along with people to get major legislation passed. I was not surprised with sanders admitted that he does not try to get along with his fellow members of congress and that he was not good at pleasantries

Link to tweet

I agree with the NYT description of their decision not to endorse sanders in that sanders is too inflexible and that he is not able to compromise. Compromise is key to getting legislation adopted in the real world

Link to tweet

I admit that i do not understand sanders magical voter revolution that sanders claims will enable him to get his agenda adopted. I do not believe in magic and I have seen no evidence that sanders has a magical voter revolution.

Here is on one more question

Link to tweet

Merely announcing a proposal is meaningless in the real world One needs votes to get a major piece of legislation adopted and sanders has not shown that he can do this in the real world

How is sanders going to get anyone in Congress to pay attention to this proposal without his magical voter revolution?

I like the real world and in the real world magic does not work. I doubt that the real world is taking sanders all that seriously

[Gothmog]

34. I hate to break it to you the process is over

The math is against sanders in the real world

Link to tweet

Are you proposing bringing back Bernie Math?

[Gore1FL]

35. It is against him. Biden will win.

So why be afraid of the process? Why not let it play out? Why harm the chances at unity?

[The Magistrate]

37. No One Is Afraid Of The Process, Sir

People are aware that 'Bernie' is doing what he can to knee-cap the nominee of the Democratic Party for President. It is something the effort to turf out the cheap thug Trump can do without. At his point, his sole reason for remaining in the contest is to do harm to the 'Democratic Establishment', which he views as the chief obstacle to the success of progressive policies. For 'Bernie', opposing the christo-fascist reactionary right is an afterthought. He does not even really feel it can done, or at least done right, until the 'Democratic Establishment' is overthrown.


"This pretense of not knowing what any fool knows has become predominant in our political discourse."





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

39. If you are afraid of Bernie, then you have no confidence in Biden.

At least have faith in the process.

[The Magistrate]

42. The Technical Term For That, Sir, Is Bullshit

And there is no doybt whatever that you know it is.

Your comment boils down to saying 'Mr. Biden must fight against two, while his general election opponent may fight against only one." That is a nonsensical position to maintain, and no one with the slightest experience of fighting would attempt to do so. It is one thing to accept a risk which cannot be avoided, or to undertake a risk which, run with successful, will bring a great benefit. It is quite another to have a risk imposed unnecessarily on you, to no good reason. Only a fool would not seek to head that off. What is at stake is too important to risk any possible hazard that could be avoided. In this case the hazard is Sanders' demonstrated intention to damage the Democratic Party, in the contest with this cheap thug Trump.

Sanders divides an effort that cannot afford to be split. Continued support for him, even by people who may agree with his stated goals, aggravates that split, and does so to a greater degree the longer it keeps him in countenance to continue.

It is a grim hope but a real one that the terrible mismanagement by the cheap thug Trump in this crisis will move the country to a sound rejection of him, but the degree to which he has successfully appealed to the basest impulses of his base supporters presents a danger to our prospects of evicting the wretch from office. It is an elementary axiom of strategy that effort must be concentrated on the decisive point, and not dispersed among several points. Again, this is not something you should need explanation of, but evidently you do. If Mr. Biden and the Democratic Party must continue to contend against both Sanders and the cheap thug Trump at the same time, they must violate this basic principle, and the effectiveness of the chief effort, against the cheap thug Trump, will necessarily be reduced below the best level that could be achieved.

This forced reduction in concentration of effort, to the detriment of efforts against the cheap thug, is employed by Sanders in an attempt to blackmail the Democratic Party, into making concessions to him. Concessions he has not the votes to warrant. That the concessions are largely meaningless does not lessen the damage giving in to Sanders will produce. Knuckling under to Sanders' blackmail will give onlookers the impression Mr. Biden and our Party are weak, and the last thing a candidate for high office can afford is to leave an impression of weakness. People value strength and rally to it, this is a basic truth of politics in a democracy. Meaningful concessions to Sanders would have an even worse effect, because a good portion of the voters we must count on are repelled by Sanders and do not want him or his proposals to be those of our Party. These far outnumber the comparatively small numbers, as a portion of the national electorate, which giving in to Sanders might gather in. Might is used advisedly, because there is no certainty Sanders has either the capability, or the desire to bring his followers into the fold. He has often said he is not, and never has been a liberal Democrat, and has for years taken the 'Democratic Establishment' as his chief enemy.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

46. If you want a divided left, then let's do it your way.

Telling people to fuck-off is stupid in my opinion; but then we'll have people to blame for four years if we lose.

Who needs Russians to divide the left? A wide swath of DU posters are here to do it for them.

[The Magistrate]

55. What Divides The Left, Sir, Is Sanders' Jihad Against The 'Democratic Establishment'

If you want the left united, do what you can to rein in the splinterist wrecker. Do not waste your time coming to me with 'concern' over how the process must play out. That is nonesense, and I do suspect you know it.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

58. What divides the left is when you shut them out.

You need to stop doing that. It dooms the party when it is divided.

[The Magistrate]

64. They Shut Themselves Out, sir

So long as they take the Democratic Party as their chief opponent, they separate themselves from the real stream of political life in our country. The choice is theirs. The left tail of the political bell curve has adopted a futile strategy. They seek to gain influence by demonstrating they cannot be relied on, thinking that in defeat, the Party will turn to them. That is not how it works. Blocs that cannot be relied have no influence, only blocs which can be relied on do, and to make up any deficit, the Party must move to the center for more votes. The strategy is counterproductive, yet for reasons beyond rational analysis, people persist in it. One suspects 'born to lose' is a tattoo with wider application than old biker gangs and such....





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[honest.abe]

128. +1

Well said.

[Gothmog]

99. Read post 31

Joe should not appease sanders only to have sanders and his delegate act up and boo John Lewis and other real democrats again. sanders delegate caused a mini-riot in a planned stunt at the Texas Delegation breakfast and the next day sanders addressed the Texas delegation and only talked about himself.

[Gore1FL]

100. I'm not asking Sanders to be appeased.

What I am asking for, repeatedly, is to let the fucking process play out like it has in virtually every previous year. Instead of treating Sanders and his supporters like pariahs, and giving them ever piece of evidence to make their claims true, it would instead be better to reach out a hand of friendship, treat them with respect, and have them gleefully willing to support us in the fall.

But no! We can't be civil. We can't come up with reasons why Sanders supporters might vote for Biden. That's crazy talk at DU. We must instead condemn them, punish them, stereotype them, pretend that they are what's wrong with the world. Drive them from the site. Drive them from voting at all. Scapegoat them later. That's the current DU style.

I think we should be welcoming and ask for their vote. I don't know why that is difficult concept to understand. I don't know why that is a difficult concept to agree on. I have no idea why it continuously morphs into things I never asserted.

Or if you prefer the tl;dr edition:

1> Don't put words in my mouth.
2> Be kind to one another.

[Gothmog]

103. In the real world candidates drop out when they have been eliminated

That is how the process works. The Obama/Clinton campaign was far closer and as I have listed Hillary Clinton is a real Democrat who concede and endorsed President Obama within 4 days. Clinton actually campaigned for President Obama and talked about President Obama at events. sanders gave his stump speech while selling his latest book

sanders and his surrogates are attacking the presumptive nominee which only helps trump and Putin. I saw how sanders and his delegates acted at the last convention. I guess that to get their vote we need to accept stunts like John Lewis being booed?

[Gore1FL]

105. Except for ones I mentioned earlier.

Just take a deep fucking breath. Let it play out. He's going to be an insignificant player in this if you just let the decades old process work as the decades old process work like it has for the last few decades and stop the endless moaning. The endless DU anti-Sanders tizzy is off-putting and I don't even fucking Support Sanders.

Why is it so difficult to come up with positive things to post about Biden? Why not build bridges instead of burning them? Why is driving of left-leaning voters a good idea? Why persist in such a strategy?

[hack89]

108. "Defeating Trump" is the only reason you need to vote for Biden

but apparently that is not enough for Bernie and you.

[Gore1FL]

114. I think we should be able to find positive reason in Biden.

Anti-Trump isn't Pro-Biden.
Anti-Sanders isn't Pro-Biden

The only thing that is Pro-Biden is Pro-Biden. I submit there is a long list of reasons to vote for Biden that do not involve the words Trump or GOP.

One good way to defeat Trump is to have the votes in November. One way not to get them is by making them enemies, dismissing their anger, or dismissing them.

If you want to continue this, please start it off the main thread. A user insisted I block him after I told him I was considering doing so. Because of that hide, I cannot see the sub-thread where this post is ending up.

[The Magistrate]

115. Defeat And Removal Of a Dangerous Enemy, Sir, Is Something To Be For

One grows tired of civics text platitudes about a positive reason being required of candidates (and turned generally only upon Democratic Party candidates).

Hatred is a powerful motivator, and little works as well for fusing people into a united bloc. Overthrow of a hated and dangerous enemy is a positive good, it is something to be for....





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[kcr]

127. Your posts remind me of the teachers who used to say "ignore the bullies and they'll go away"

[Gore1FL]

129. I submit the targeting isn't limited to the few.

Why is it so hard to ask people to post Pro-Biden stuff that compels people to vote for Biden rather than the scorched-earth divide-the-party-better-than-Putin-could-dream-of approach embraced by so many here.

Look at the DU numbers. Biden is basically a lock for the candidacy and has 38% of the DU vote. Rather than constantly attacking the 14% of fellow DUers that Support Sanders, perhaps at least concentrating on the 48% undecideds is a good idea.

The fact that I have about 100 posts this week asking people to take a civil and welcoming approach and receiving endless arguments against such an approach makes me wonder after 19 years of membership if this site is worth being a part of anymore.

[kcr]

130. Why can't the bullying victims just say nice things about their mom?

[Gore1FL]

132. As someone who doesn't list Biden as their choice, how have I bullied you? Please be specific.

After answering that, please give an example of someone you would not want voting for Biden.

No that you bring up bullying, I feel bullied by the people here that take offense with my pleas for civility. I had to hide someone--a Biden supporter. That's like 4 people since 2001.

If you want to dismiss them, punish them, whatever, OK. But then not one goddamned word when they don't vote for Biden in the fall. you can't have it both ways.

[Gothmog]

38. From Nate

Link to tweet

[Gore1FL]

40. Exactly, so why sweat the process when all it can end in is victory?

Why short circuit a process in a way that will only piss off people we need in the fall? Why blow the opportunity?

[The Magistrate]

43. You Give A Very Poor Imitation Of A Fool, Sir

"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

48. I can post unrelated quotes too, but I am not sure the benefit.

Be a sore winner. Feel good about it.

Thankfully, Biden is far more politically astute than you.

[The Magistrate]

54. You May Certainly Post Unrelated Quotes, Sir

That does not mean anyone else is doing so, so you might want to drop the 'too' from your effort above, to bring it into line with reality.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

56. Maybe those are your tagline. You repeat them a lot.

Whatever. It doesn't matter.

You want to give ammunition to people that call the process unfair. Have at it. Then you can blame the people you drove off if we lose 2020.

Have a party.

[The Magistrate]

61. They Will Call the Process Unfair, Sir, However It Plays Out

Only Sanders receiving the nomination would convince them the primary is not rigged against Sanders. And Sanders is not going to be the nominee.

The energy in this election comes from middle of the road types grown disgusted with this cheap thug Trump, and the passion to defeat this cheap thug Trump among rank and file Democrats, who hate the creature like poison. Attempts t placate 'Bernie' and his cult will repel the former and enrage the latter. People on the leftmost tail of the political spectrum ar going to have decide whether they want to oppose the cristo-fascist right, or surrender any chance of progress in a left direction for a generation. If they choose not to join in struggle, any harm coming from that decision is theirs alone.


"Now that is cool. a highwayman puts a pistol to my head and says give me your money, or I shall have to shoot you, and you will become a murderer."





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

63. So you want to give it credibility, why?

Why does Democracy bother you so? Why can't the process play out? Why can't people have the dignity to vote?

Again, thank God Biden is better at this than you.

[The Magistrate]

67. Being False To Fact, Sir, It Can Have No Credibilty

You may have noticed people possess an extraordinary capacity to believe what want to be true is true. People who enjoy seeing themselves as a beleaguered and persecuted minority, possessed of a superior insight and understanding lesser mortal cannot fully appreciate, will manage to conduct their affairs in such a way they can see that view of themselves reflected back at them in the world around them. It is how they want to feel, what makes them feel good, and outside of themselves there is no help for it. The old tattoo tag 'Born to Lose' is appropriate for a much wider circle than old biker gangs and such....





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

69. You want to end this process before it is mathematically over.

The only obvious outcome of doing so is division and calls of unfairness.

Still you persisted.


You want to make people hate Biden supporters, you do you. Please don;t make them hate Biden, too.

[The Magistrate]

70. Always Nice To Wake Up To A Good Laugh With My Coffee, Sir

You were getting to be awfully boring, but coming into place with the same lame nonesense you kept up all night right at the crack o' dawn does restore some small element of interest.

You should find some new chant, though. Really. Try not to go through the whole new day with the same cant.



"Who has no enemies has no friends."





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

83. Please be civil to fellow Duers.

Making this place miserable for others does the admins no good.

[The Magistrate]

84. Nothing In My Comments Lacks Civility, Sir

If you are made miserable by disagreement with your views, that is your privilege, but it is not binding on anyone else, and really cannot be expected in a public forum.

[Gore1FL]

86. You are literally defending being incivil.

Your whole dismissal of entire groups of people lacks civility. Beyond that you are condescending attitude is unwarranted.

I am not made miserable by disagreement. I am made miserable by people who are unwelcoming.

[The Magistrate]

88. I Am, Sir, But A Helpless Slave To 'That Cheerful And Roguish Vice, Politeness'

And assure you that what people think of me is none of my damn business.

Again, better to stick by a good intention publicly announced. Your ignoring me will not trouble me at all, in fact I doubt I would even notice you had....





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

89. I did not. I said it was an option, "but for now, bye."

I am sorry you cannot read for context. But If it makes you happy, consider it done. Bye, forever.

I hope you quit making DU suck for people. It least now it will suck less for me.

[The Magistrate]

90. I Will Try And Bear Up Under It, Sir...

It may be a struggle, but I have known tough times before....

[Gothmog]

223. 7% of Sanders supporters say they'd vote for Trump against Biden

Link to tweet

[DenverJared]

32. Great post

K&R

[radius777]

33. +1. Better to lay the beatdown on the alt-left/BoB's.

They're not Dems and won't vote Dem anyway - but only exist as a thorn in the side of Dems, where they can (and will) poison others against Dems/Biden like they did to Obama during his admin and to Hillary in 2016.

[Gore1FL]

41. That wasn't the left.

That was the republicans.

But great cheerleading for diving the left.

[Gothmog]

47. 25% of sanders supporters are republicans??

Link to tweet

[Gore1FL]

51. Maybe we should reach out to them if we want their votes.

Wedging them off seems to be a contrary strategy. Why make that number go up?

Ultimately, I would think Trump voters and the electoral college is what did Clinton in.

[The Magistrate]

57. They Wedge Themselves Off, Sir

They follow an old 'new left' pied piper, mind, but the choice is theirs. They can understand that the first duty of the left is to oppose the worst elements of reaction in our polity, the christo-fascist right, or they can continue in the course of attempting to wreck left political blocs which are not quite so left as they are, viewing this as a necessary preparation for final struggle with the reactionary right. That is the line pressed by the old Comintern, which left the slogan 'Hitler is the ice-breaker of the revolution' to history, and saw Red Guard bodies join with Stormtroopers to attack Social Democrat Party rallies in the waning days of Weimar. There really is nothing new under the sun, particularly in left politics. The same errors have been made for at least a century and a half. 'Bernie' is engaged in the same foolish enterprise, albeit in an attentuated and weakened form. Perhaps he will serve as a vaccine, and teach the Party how to see off future attempts by entry-ist wreckers.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

59. No. They have been told to take a back seat since 1988.

People get antsy around 3 decades.

[The Magistrate]

71. When Was This Golden Era, Sir, When The Left Dominated The Democratic Party?

When 'Democratic Socialists' roamed the land, defining our political life and prevailing mightily in our national government?


"Enquiring minds want to know!"





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

72. Pre 1984

That was the last year Democrats opposed Reaganomics out of fear. This allowed the wealth gap and the deterioration of the middle class.

It's no wonder the middle class and poor feel abandoned.


Of course you might also google "Great Society" if you actually care about this subject other than gaslighting me about it.

[The Magistrate]

73. Oh, Really? Suspected You Might Say Something Like That

People at the time seem to have missed it. Certainly people who classed themselves as left liberals missed it entirely. I will not go into any great detail, in deference to a gentleman conversed with here recently, but would suggest you hunt up a book by Robert Sherrill called 'The Accidental President', which will give you the view taken at the time by the liberal left of Mr. Johnson's 'Great Society'. It was not a favorable one. And I shall close with comments by Mr. Norman Thomas, the great Socialist leader in the Roosevelt era....


https://newpol.org/is-the-new-deal-socialism-by-norman-thomas/

As a Socialist, I view the Smith – Roosevelt controversy with complete impartiality. I am little concerned to point out the inconsistencies in Al Smith’s record, or to remind him that in 1924 and 1928, when I happened to be the Socialist candidate for high office against him, more than one of his close political friends came to me to urge me as a Socialist not to attack him too severely since he really stood for so many of the things that Socialists and other progressive workers wanted.

But I am concerned to point out how false is the charge that Roosevelt and the New Deal represent socialism. What is at state is not prestige or sentimental devotion to a particular name. What is at state is a clear understanding of the issues on which the peace and prosperity of generations — perhaps centuries — depend. A nation which misunderstands socialism as completely as Al Smith misunderstands it is a nation which weakens its defense against the coming of war and fascism.

But, some of you will say, isn’t it true, as Alfred E. Smith and a host of others before him have charged, that Roosevelt carried out most of the demands of the Socialist platform?

This charge is by no means peculiar to Mr. Smith. I am told that a Republican speaker alleged that Norman Thomas rather than Franklin D. Roosevelt has been President of the United States. I deny the allegation and defy the allegator, and I suspect I have Mr. Roosevelt’s support in this denial. Matthew Woll, leader of the forces of reaction in the American Federation of Labor, is among the latest to make the same sort of charge.

Roosevelt Not Socialist

Emphatically, Mr. Roosevelt did not carry out the Socialist platform, unless he carried it out on a stretcher. What is true is that when Mr. Roosevelt took office he had to act vigorously.

We had demanded Federal relief for unemployment. Hence any attempts Mr. Roosevelt made at Federal relief could perhaps be called by his enemies an imitation of the Socialists platform. It was an extraordinarily poor imitation. We demanded Federal unemployment insurance. Hence any attempt to get Federal security legislation could be regarded as an imitation of the Socialist platform. It was an amazingly bad imitation.

Indeed, at various times Mr. Roosevelt has taken particular and rather unnecessary pains to explain that he was not a Socialist, that he was trying to support the profit system, which by the way, he defined incorrectly. In his last message to Congress his attack was not upon the profit system but on the sins of big business.

His slogan was not the Socialist cry: “Workers of the world, workers with hand and brain, in town and country, unite!” His cry was: “Workers and small stockholders unite, clean up Wall Street.” That cry is at least as old as Andrew Jackson.

"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

74. You can call being anti-Reaganomics whatever you want.

I would like to call it Democratic.

You want to post tl;dr creeds about Socialism. I want to talk policy.


Toodles.

[The Magistrate]

75. In Other Words, Sir

You haven't a clue about what you seek to discuss.

So there really is no point in any further exchange with you.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

76. No, in other words, I don't wish to discuss what you are discussing.

My message is don't be a dick to people. It's unnecessary and it's good to have allies.

Your message is one of divisiveness couched in tl;dr spam messages.

I don't need your condescension. I don't need your gas-lighting. If you can't be anything more than an insulting jerk, then please make DU miserable for someone else.

[The Magistrate]

77. All You Need Do, Sir, Is Cease Replying

It really is easily done....

Of course you could try actually putting together an argument, but here seems scant hope of that by now.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

78. Or I could just add you to the short hide list I've compiled in almost two decades here.

The options are many.

For now. Bye.

[The Magistrate]

79. Wear It In Good Health, Sir

If that is what it takes for you to stop that nagging little sense something is not quite right with your view of these matters....





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

80. You can't quit being condescending, can you?

Are you trying to drive me off of DU? Is it empowering for you to bully?

WTF is with you?

[The Magistrate]

81. So You Have Not Used The Ignore Button, Sir

Best to stick to a good intention declared openly. That can gain some respect, at least.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

82. No, I did not.

I said it was an option. Another was not responding.

Please read for clarity and please be nice to fellow DUers.

[Gothmog]

85. Denial is not just a river in Africa

The Magistrate is correct and you are wrong

[Gore1FL]

87. You just have to scroll up and re-read it. nt

[Gothmog]

91. I read the post and the difference is that I actually understood the material

[Gore1FL]

92. Another uniter.

I hope Biden can overcome his supporters.

On Edit: Interestingly, I can no longer see the sub-thread after eliminating the other poster from my feed. If you plan on continuing his harassment, please start fresh off the main thread.

[Gothmog]

94. How does pushing bogus rape accusations and booing Hillary Clinton and John Lewis unite the party?

sanders is not going to be the nominee and he is hurting the party and Joe Biden. These polling results make me smile

Link to tweet

[The Magistrate]

93. I Expect To Put Up Mr. Thomas' Remarks In Full Soon, Sir

I am undecided whether General Discussion or this forum is the better venue. It does bear somewhat on primary matters, but only indirectly

The one distressing element of the exchange above is that the fellow clearly has no idea who Mr. Thomas was, and of the place occupied by the Socialist Party in our country at the time of the Great Depression and the New Deal. That is a shame, it is something anyone who fancies himself as on the left of our political spectrum ought to have some awareness of at least. I shudder to think what his grasp of Labor Movement history might amount to.

(For clarity, this is addressed to Mr. Gothmog, not the post which wedged in apparently as I was composing it)

[Aquaria]

179. If they want a front seat for their viewpoint

They need to convince people of that which they believe. They have failed to do that for decades now--and not merely since 1988. They've been failing at it long before that, too.

Only the ignorant and the foolish have failed to face that reality.

[Gore1FL]

183. I like the way things were before Reagan, myself.

Not sure why you think that era was a failure.

[BlueLucy]

60. Joe is getting a lot of never Trumpers and ...

suburban women who use to vote republican. If you're talking about appealing to the "Joe Rogan" types, that is a really bad strategy. We would lose Liberal women, suburban women and mainstream democrats with that strategy.

[Gore1FL]

62. Great. He can appeal to the left too.

All he has to be is reasonable. Fortunately, he is much more than the DU forums.

I think Biden can unite the party. I think if he listened to a wide swath of DU posters he sure wouldn't.

[BlueLucy]

65. I know he can and will.

He's a good man and will absolutely give concessions. There is, as you know, a lot of Bernie supporters who will not be happy no matter what. High profile surrogates of Sen Sanders are making it hard for his supporters to vote for Joe. Shaun King, Jacobin, Intercept, S.Sarandon, and others calling Joe a demented rapist makes unity hard for everyone.

[Gothmog]

98. Read the OP

Trying to appease the sanders faction would hurt Biden in getting moderate voters in the real world.

Even if Biden does try to appease sanders, all he can expect is sanders not working to help Joe win and sanders delegates booing John Lewis and others at the national convention. Even if Biden does try to appeal to sanders, there are a significant number of sanders supporters who will not vote for any real democrat. Looked at the OP. 25% of sanders supporters either voted for trump, voted for a third party candidate or stayed home.

I think that the better course is to give up on the sanders supporters and concentrate on winning with moderate but rational voters.

[Gore1FL]

102. You keep coming to the word appease. This is a word I never used.

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth to build strawman arguments.

You time would be much better used coming up with *positive* reasons for Sanders supporters to vote for Biden. Or is the respect of having such a conversation "appeasement?"

[Gothmog]

116. The only thing that will make the sanders supporters happy is if the party bend a knee to sanders

The majority of the party has spoken and sanders will not be the nominee even if this makes sanders supporters unhappy. I do not feel like appeasing sanders supporters

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

sanders lost and I do not feel like giving into the demands of the sanders supporters

[Gore1FL]

149. Do you have data on this, or is this just conjecture based on random tweets?

Respect the process. Respect the participants. Respect the candidates. Respect the voters.

These are really not hard [points to get. They are odd points to argue with. Why do you feel the need to expend dozens of posts arguing in favor of acting poorly towards people? It doesn't make sense.

Votes count. Don't throw them away.

[Gothmog]

153. Denial is not just a river in Africa

The only thing that will make the racist sanders supporters who voted for trump happy would be if the will of the majority of the party is disregarded and the party bends a knee and anoints a weak and un-electable candidate like sanders. I prefer concentrating on the votes of real Democrats like African American voters who have rejected sanders.. African American voter support is the reason for Biden's wins and the reason why sanders will not be the nominee

[Gore1FL]

158. Obviously it is pointless talking to you.

It's weird being civil to people is so controversial. Later.

[Gothmog]

164. Why are you afraid of facts?

[Gore1FL]

166. I'm not. I am afraid of people who keep changing the subject.

I am afraid of wasting time arguing with someone over whether they should act like an asshole or not. Nevermind, please feel free.

[Gothmog]

167. The facts are what are important

Last edited Sun Apr 5, 2020, 01:17 AM - Edit history (1)

The facts are that the primary is over and sanders lost due to the fact that African American voters rejected sanders and supported Joe Biden. Now that it is clear that sanders will not be the nominee, sanders supporters are demanding that their demands be met or they will vote for trump. We are fortunate in that there are studies who looked at the reasons why sanders supporters voted for trump in 2016 and these studies show that the sanders supporters who voted for trump in 2016 (i) were not really members of the Democratic Party, (ii) hated President Obama and (iii) were racists. sanders movement appealed to these voters in part because sanders was not a fan of President Obama and in fact wanted to primary President Obama.

Now we are being told that we need to appease these racists sanders voters and that such voters are more important than the vast majority of the party who have rejected sanders and who are supporting Joe Biden. I really think that it is a waste of time to try to win the support of racist sander supporters and I prefer to focus on turning out the vote of real Democrats such as African American voters.

How do you propose to win the support of the racists white sanders supporters who are threatening to vote for trump? Why are these voters more important than the vote of real Democrats such as African Americans?

I live and work in the real world. I am glad that Joe Biden is going to be the nominee because having a weak candidate like sanders at the top of the ticked would kill down ballot candidates in Texas. Following the 2010 elections, we had 101 republicans compared to 49 Democrats in the Texas state house. Now we need 9 seats to flip control of the Texas house and to be able to control redistricting following the 2020 census (Texas may pick up three more congressional seats). There are 10 GOP state house seats that Beto won in 2018 that the party is focusing on. We picked up 2 congressional seats in Texas in 2018 (Colin Allred and Lizzie Fletcher) The DCCC has targeted 7 seats and I am working hard on the campaign for one of these seats. Having Joe on the top of the ticket is going to be a big help in contesting these seats.

The real world is a nice place where fact matter. I like living and working in the real world.

[Gore1FL]

171. It's still off-topic. nt

[Gothmog]

173. I am the author of the OP and this is indeed on topic

The fact that sanders was rejected by 70% of the party and the fact that the sanders supporters who either voted for trump in 2016 and or who threatening to vote for trump this cycle are relevant to whether Joe Biden and the party need to appease sanders supporters. Read the OP. The studies show that the sanders supporters who voted for trump in 2016 were non-Democrat racists who hated President Obama. We need to focus on actual Democrats who are not racists and get these voter tot turnout. It is a waste of time and effort to try to appease and get the votes of racist white sanders supporters.

For example, sanders alienated a ton of African American supporters by promoting the endorsement of sanders by a racist idiot.

Link to tweet

Joe Biden should not worry about losing the vote of a racist idiot like Rogan

Link to tweet

The real world is a nice place and in the real world the primary is over and in the real world it would be both counterproductive and a waste of time to attempt to appease white racist sanders supporters who voted for trump. Biden is better off spending his time and effort on turning out real Democrats like African American voters

[Gore1FL]

176. It's not the topic I was discussing. I was discussing the political benefits of respect.

Being nice goes a long way.

I don't give 5 fucks about Joe Rogan.

[Gothmog]

186. Read the OP-it is a waste of time to try to appease sanders supporters who want to vote for trump

Rogan is an example of the type of white racist sanders supporters who voted for trump in 2016 and who is now voting for trump. It is a total waste of time and effort to try to win the vote of racists like Rogan and the other sanders supporters who want to vote for trump. These racists hate President Obama and will not support a nominee acceptable to the majority of the party.

The good news is that sanders promotion of Rogan's endorsement cost sanders any chance of getting the support of African American voters

Link to tweet

I am glad that sanders may be looking at withdrawing. Biden should not waste time trying to appease sanders supporters like Rogan

[Gore1FL]

188. You keep using the word appease when I use the word respect.

I have corrected you over and over. You still use a word I have not uttered in my argument. That tells me all I need to know. I hope one day you will find a better use for your time than arguing against calls for being decent human beings.

Good day.

[Gothmog]

190. How do you win the vote of racist white sanders supporters who hate President Obama?

Again, facts matter. The sanders supporters who voted for trump in 2016 were non-democrats white racists who hated President Obama. I live in the real world and showing respect to these racist sanders supporters does not work. Do you really think that you can win the vote of these racists with respect???

The real world is a nice place and I like working and living in it. The concept that showing respect to these racist voters who hate President Obama will make a difference in how they vote is really amusing.

[Gore1FL]

194. Not all of them are racist or white

Please stop stereo typing. It's easier to be nice.

I'm done arguing the merits of being civil. Goodnight.

[Gothmog]

203. Denial is not just a river in Africa

The study and polling from the Cooperative Congressional Election Survey speaks for itself. sanders and his supporters were so excited about the Joe Rogan endorsement because Rogan fit into the demographics that sanders was appealing to and was a typical sanders supporter/voter

Link to tweet

I am still curious at to how you want to appease or win the votes of these racist idiots? You are refusing to explain how being nice to racists who hate President Obama is an effective election strategy. I prefer to focusing on real Democrats like African American voters

[Gore1FL]

204. What part of "leave me alone" don't you get?

I am asking you to be kind to people. You ae posting quotes unrelated to that reqest. Further posts will make you the 5th person I have ever hidden in 19 years and the second in just a week.

[Gothmog]

207. Why will you not answer this simple question?

You want us to be nice to racist non democratic sanders supporters who hate President Obama. How will this plan work? Why will having sanders continuing his losing campaign help win the support of these racist voters?

I am glad that African American voters are supporting Joe Biden and I think that we should focus on these voters and not try to appease racist non-democrat sanders supporters who hate President Obama and want to vote for trump. I am curious as to why you think being nice to these voters will be effective

[Gore1FL]

206. If you can't be nice, please leave me alone.

It's a simple request. It shouldn't take 40 posts.

[The Magistrate]

199. Corrected The Gentleman, Have You?

Heavens, what a thing to wake up to.

Tripe is not a proper breakfast....

[Gothmog]

209. I am simply curious as to how one win the vote of the sanders supporters

25% of sanders supporters voted against Hillary. We are being told that the Democratic ticket will lose without these voters. I want to know how this works in the real world

[The Magistrate]

213. As Our Interlocutor Here Makes Evident, Sir

The thing cannot be done in some instances.

Not everyone is amenable to reason, or even recognizes social pressure. Sometimes, people are even proud of these flaws.

[Gothmog]

168. Oh no, Biden lost Joe Rogan

No one was going to get a racist like Rogan to vote for a real Democrat

Link to tweet

[Gore1FL]

169. What does Joe Rogan have to do with this?

[Gothmog]

174. Rogan is one of the racist white voters who sanders was appealing to

sanders spent a great deal of effort promoting the purported endorsement of a white racist like Rogan. Rogan hurt sanders with real democrats

Link to tweet

It is a waste of time for Biden and the party to pursue Rogan and to pursue racist white sanders supporters wo voted for trump in 2016 and who are threatening to vote for trump this cycle

[Gore1FL]

175. Because of the Joe Rogan fellow you are unable to be nice to people?

That seems like a weird and rather specific excuse.

[Gothmog]

154. Read the study and posting set forth in this thread

The only way to win the vote of the white racist sanders supporters who hate President Obama is to reject the will of the majority of the party and anoint a weak and unelectable candidate like sanders.

In the real world it is a waste of time and effort to try to win the support of the white racist sanders supporters who want to vote for trump. I live in the real world and I am glad that the party will be ignoring these racists and focusing on African American voters and moderate voters. Biden is going to be the nominee of the party due to the fact that African American voters supported Biden and reject sanders. It is important to rely on and get these voters to the polls.

Putin and trump were effective in suppressing the vote of African American voters last cycle.

Link to tweet

By not giving into sanders and making sure sanders is not able to disrupt the convention with stunts like booing John Lewis, Biden will mobilize these voters in number that will easy surpass the racist white sanders supporters who voted for or who want to vote for turmp

[Gore1FL]

170. This may be factual, but it is off-topic.

Let me shorten my point to just a few words to maybe get it home:

No excuses. Be nice.

[Gothmog]

187. Again I am the author of the OP and this is clearly on topic

As a lawyer, I am always amuse by relevancy objections. These objections are not used in the real world because these objections allow the other side to give a great argument explaining why the material is relevant. Here that is not hard. Read the OP Ignoring sanders is warranted and beneficial

]If you are in the search for silver linings, one benefit of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) pointlessly continuing his losing campaign is the freedom for Democrats to denounce him and his anti-party escapades. After years of humoring him, the vast majority of Democrats, from super-progressives to moderates, can now say out loud what they’ve said quietly: It has always been about Bernie. It’s not a movement, but rather a vanity project. ....

The problem, according to many Democrats, remains that 15 percent of Sanders supporters say in polling that they would vote for President Trump over Biden. This nugget actually makes the opposite argument: There is nothing that would satisfy some faction of the Sanders coalition that would rather blow up our democracy and reelect Trump. With people so irrational, the best response is to ignore them. They, like the MAGA-hat crowd, are unreachable and cannot be bargained with (e.g., more New Green Deal talk!). So do not try. No more outreach to Sanders, no more promised policy modifications, no more speaking slot at the convention. Enough

This would have some salutary effects.

First, it would make perfectly clear that Biden is not Sanders and not a crazy left-winger, as Trump would like to paint him in the campaign. Biden makes a sharp distinction between the “democratic socialist” crowd and his own brand of center-left politics. Since he cannot get the 15 percent of “Bernie or Bust” Democrats (or independents), he might as well make a strong play for moderate independents and disaffected Republicans. Cutting Sanders off effectively allows Biden to pitch to gettable swing voters, not waste time on unattainable Bernie Bros.

Second, freezing out Sanders will make governance in a Biden administration much easier and more cohesive. There will be no debt to be paid to Sanders, no advisers taken on to satisfy Sanders, and no weird and distracting policy initiatives to lead the new administration astray. This would be a center-left administration confident of its own governing agenda — and personally cohesive.

I believe that it is a waste of time and effort to attempt to appease the sanders supporters who want to vote for trump. Biden is better off working to turnout the vote of real Democrats like African American voters.

I like living in the real world.

[Gore1FL]

189. It is not the topic I am discussing.

I am discussing the need to show respect to other users. You are inadvertently giving examples as to why that might be a good idea.

Please be nice. If you can't, we have nothing further to discuss.

[Gothmog]

191. Who cares?

The topic of this thread is clear. The fact that you think that you can hijack this threads amuses me.

[Gore1FL]

195. You'll care in November if we lose.

I feel you are unreachable. Being respectful isn't controversial. Good night.

[Gothmog]

196. If Sanders is the nominee, trump will win 45+ states and Kevin McCarthy will be speaker

[Gore1FL]

197. Sanders won't be the nominee. It will be Biden.

That is why it is paramount we build party unity for November through respect and fairness.

I'm done here There is literally no reason to prolong this discussion unless you are simply desiring to harass me for having thenerve to call for civility.

[Gothmog]

202. How do you appease or win the vote of racist white sanders supporters who hate President Obama

Being nice to such persons seems like a weak plan. I have met a ton of these sanders supporters at the national convention and being nice to them will not work.

[Gore1FL]

205. Leave me alone

Further posts will be considered harassment.

[Gothmog]

208. You are the one who thinks that we win the vote of sanders supporters

You are the one who wants sanders to continue his failing campaign because we need the vote of the racist non-Democrats sanders supporters who hate President Obama and who are telling pollsters that they will vote for trump. You have repeatedly claimed that we need the votes of these sanders supporters to defeat trump. How do you win the vote of these sanders supporters in the real world?

I think that it would be a waste of time to try to appease these voters but you keep posting that we need these voters to win. How will this work?

I would be happy if these voters voted for the Democratic ticket but I do not understand how this is possible in the real world. I am not alone

Link to tweet

[Gore1FL]

211. I am the one advocating being civil.

You can' handle that. Anyone who wants to argue this long against being decent and respectful is clearly never going to be decent and respectful. You are not worth my time, sadly. Fortunately, some people are reachable.

I will therefore, hide you as promised, and concentrate on those people who find value in respect.

[The Magistrate]

193. So Discuss It Among Yourself, Fella

Had not noticed this effort before. It is seriously amusing....

[Gothmog]

210. Yes it is amusing

[Aquaria]

180. He can't appeal to a "left"

That refuses to live in reality.

It is the height of gall to tell people who are living in reality that they're the ones who need to be reasonable, and worse, to hear it from people who have no concept of it whatsoever.

[Gore1FL]

182. And calling people unrealistic will get their votes, how exactly?

Do you understand why they want the "unrealisitc" things? Do you have other solutions? Or should we just tell them to fuck off and then complain when they do?

It's astounding how many people on DU are so eager to argue with calls for civility.

[Gothmog]

224. NEW: @ProjectLincoln has a new ad out.

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

215. 'Never Trump' Republicans Will Support Biden, Not Sanders

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

95. Donald Trump is the only real winner if Bernie Sanders remains in the Democratic primary

Link to tweet

There is not a lot of certainty in the midst of an unprecedented pandemic, but two things are increasingly clear: one, that Donald Trump is unfit to serve in the Oval Office and cannot be re-elected president in November; and two, that Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., needs to drop out of the Democratic primary.

Former Vice President Joe Biden is the Democrats' best chance to beat Trump at the ballot box — even if it’s remote or virtual — this November, and there is virtually no way for Sanders to win enough delegates to best him in the remaining primaries. Thus, the longer that Sanders yet again remains in the race, the more it yet again hurts the Democrats’ chance at winning the White House.

Plus, continuing to attack a Democratic candidate looks ridiculously tone deaf as his fellow Americans battle the virus that Trump allowed to spread unchecked.

At a time when voters are scared for their health and fear going to the polls for the primary contests, it would be smart of Sanders to read the moment and recognize that it’s just not his. Sanders even knows that his path forward is a “narrow one” — but instead of dropping out is determined to use his diminishing candidacy to push forward his platform, as though he could not do so as a sitting senator with plenty of media opportunities. However, it would behoove Sanders and the party he supposedly seeks to serve to recognize this unique moment we’re in is bigger than his ego and bow out.
……

The primary is effectively over, and the general election is on, whether Sanders likes it or not. All factions of the Democratic Party will be better off by coming together early — and before the date of the convention, especially if there isn't one. The coronavirus pandemic is proving just how badly we need a new president come November, and exactly why elections matter (and why both parties are not the same).

For the sake of our country, Sanders should drop out of the Democratic primary and devote himself to defeating Trump, not just promoting his ideas: it’s both the noble and the right thing to do in this moment, not just for him but for us.

[Gore1FL]

96. It's weird it didn't hurt other times.

Like in 2008 when Clinton took it to the convention. Or 1992 when Brown took it to the convention. Or 1976 when Udall took it to the convention.

Why concerns you about Biden as a candidate that you don't think he can handle this? I have way more confidence in your chosen primary candidate than you have. Doesn't it strike you as odd that an undecided has more faith in your candidate than you?

[Gothmog]

97. That is because Hillary Clinton actually worked hard to elect President Obama

Hillary Clinton conceded and endorse President Obama three days after last primary and actually worked to helped elect President Obama in the real world Clinton delegates did not boo John Lewis or cause a mini-riot at the national Convention. My middle child attended the Denver Convention as a chaperone for a group of high school students and saw first hand how hard Hillary worked to make that convention a success. sanders only talked about himself and barely mentioned Clinton his speeches.

In addition, Clinton actually campaign for President Obama and did not take off two months to write a book.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

There was a major difference between how Clinton campaigned for President Obama compared to sanders' sad showing

[Gore1FL]

101. I remember Sanders delivering the VT delegate votes for her at the convention

What were you watching? Reruns of her doing the exact same thing for Obama in 2008 perhaps?

[Gothmog]

104. I was there

I saw the stunts that sanders pulled. That was also the night that JOHN Lewis was booed as part of a planned stunt by vetted sanders delegates

[Gore1FL]

106. You can hold grudges or you can win elections.

Chose wisely.

[Gothmog]

120. Read post 117-Trying to appease the sanders voters who voted for trump is a waste of time

I prefer appealing to real Democrats and turnout out the base of the party such as African American voters.

How can one appeal to voters who are not real members of the party, who hate President Obama and who are racist. The only way that one can appease these voters is to bend the knee and select sanders as the nominee over the objections of 70% of the party including key demographic groups such as African American voters.

I want to win which means not wasting time on these sanders voters and focusing on moderate and other votes

[Gore1FL]

126. Not appease. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

The reason they don't vote Democratic is exactly because they are sick of 30 years of being abandoned for the Susan-Collins-type voter of the general electorate.

Instead of trying to argue against every point but they one I am making, please be nice. Show respect. Be better than the people you are complaining about. It's not that hard. It's also not appeasement.

[Gothmog]

131. It is a waste of time trying to appease these voters in the real world

The facts are that these voters are (i) not really Democrats, (ii) did not like President Obama and (iii) were racists. How are you going to win over these voters in the real world? The party is not going to bend the knee and anoint sanders as the nominee which is the only thing that will appease these voters.

Again facts matter. It is a waste of time and effort to appease the sanders voters. All sanders is doing is making trump and Putin happy https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/opinions/you-have-a-lot-to-be-proud-of-senator-sanders-axelrod/index.html

In a recent ABC News-Washington Post poll, an astonishing 15% of Sanders' voters said they would support Trump in November. To Sanders, who bristles at the suggestion that his prolonged and bitter challenge to Clinton in 2016 helped facilitate Trump's election, this should be a concerning number.

With Sanders idling his engine in Burlington, Vermont, his most zealous supporters -- and Trump-inspired bots posing as Bernie supporters -- continue to trash Biden online in terms remarkably similar to the president's own "Sleepy Joe" memes.

Trump, himself, has become Sanders' greatest champion, accusing Democrats of "cheating" Sanders out of the nomination (this is when he is not calling Sanders "Crazy Bernie&quot . Team Trump is eager to stir this pot and drive alienated young Berniacs away from the polls in November, as they did in 2016.

Putin is getting his money's worth from his investment in supporting sanders

Facts matter and here the primary is over and all sanders is doing now is helping trump and Putin

[Gore1FL]

135. There are 14% at DU. You call them not real?

Why can you not reach out to your fellow DUers? Why is it more important to bash them?

[Gothmog]

142. If any member of DU voted for trump in 2016 or voted for Stein, then they need to find another home

The purpose of this board is to elect more Democrats and fewer republicans. The sanders supporters who voted for trump or third party candidates are not true Democrats and I believe that such votes are not consistent with the goals of this board. This is from the Terms of Service for this board

Core principles
Democratic Underground is an online community for friendly, politically liberal people who understand the importance of working together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. Constructive criticism of Democratic politicians, party officials, and public figures is welcome and encouraged, but we expect our members to follow our forum rules and participate in a manner which promotes a positive atmosphere.

Members are not expected to hold across-the-board progressive opinions on every single issue, but we do expect members to be generally progressive and to support Democrats at election time -- remember that and respect it when posting. Harsh, divisive, partisan attacks against Democrats or progressive values (from the right or the left) are not welcome here.

I hope that the sanders supporters who post on this board did not vote for trump or third party candidates such stein. One of my major complaints about sanders is his extremely poor judgement on staffing issues and the fact that sanders has hired and not fired people like Sirota and stein voters is a major issue for me and others.

Luckily 80% to 85% of sanders supporters are going to vote for Joe Biden. As with most things, sanders support has decline significantly form 2016 and so I am encouraged that only 15% of sanders supporters are stating that they will vote for trump. As pointed out by the Magistrate on this thread, there is reason to believe that is sanders does the right thing and drop out, that number with decline.

I will vote for the nominee of the party and I hope that other members of the board do likewise. I have been a member of the Democratic Party for a long time and I have bene working hard to turn Texas blue. We are gearing up for voter protection and I am involved in helping to organized a statewide organization of Democratic lawyers. We need to defeat trump. One of the reasons why sanders is losing right now is that many members of the party fear having sanders at the top of ticket. I know that if sanders was on the top of the ticket we could kiss down ballot races in Texas goodbye

I see no need to appease the group of sanders supporters who will only be happy if we disregard the desires of the majority of the party and anoint sanders as the nominee. I see no need to bend the knee to these sanders supporters. The 15% to 25% of sanders supporters who helped to elect trump are not real democrats and I personally doubt that many of this group are on DU

[Gore1FL]

145. So you wish to win 2016 by reducing our chances of getting votes.

Brilliant.

Why is it so hard to not be a sucky human being? Why is it easier to barrage me with ideas that are contrary to getting votes?

I'm not interested in losing in November. And if listening to and respecting others is all that takes, sign me up. Not sure why you wouldn't be on board.

[George II]

147. "If any member of DU voted for trump in 2016 or voted for Stein....

...then they need to find another home"

Many of them did.

[Gore1FL]

150. You seem proud of that rather than ashamed.

The goal is to win votes, not to drive them away.

Division is a bad thing in politics. Prevent it from happening. If you don't, we lose.

[Gothmog]

156. Biden won the nomination by winning the support of African American voters

Trying to appease the racist white sanders voters who voted for trump or who want to vote for trump is a waste of time and risks depressing the turnout of a block of real Democratic voters.

I really believe that it is a waste of time to try to appeal to the racist white sanders voters who either voted for trump or who want to vote for trump. I think that Biden is correct to focus on real democrats who are reliable voters like African American voters.

Remember that sanders is in a distant second place now due to the fact that African American voters have rejected sanders and gone with a real Democrat like Biden

[Gore1FL]

159. Are you saying the 14% of DU that are Sanders supporters are racist?

If not, then why antagonize them?

Nevermind. I'm done. Be a dick to everyone. See how far it gets you in life..

[The Magistrate]

160. I Suspect, Sir

That it has gotten the gentleman a good deal further than it has you....





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gothmog]

163. Only the ones who want to vote for trump or who voted for trump in 2016

The cooperative Congressional Campaign Survey show that the sanders supporters who voted for trump in 2016 were racists who hated President Obama. The 15% of sanders supporters who are telling pollsters that they intend to vote for trump unless the will of the majority of the party is disregarded and sanders is anointed overlaps with the 2016 voters who voted by trump or who otherwise helped to elect trump. Read the material posted

I doubt that there are any DU members in that group. DU is a site whose purpose is to elect more Democrats and fewer republicans to office. Hopefully the DUers who are supporting sanders are in the 75% who voted for Clinton in 2016 and the 80% to 85% of sanders supporters who are telling pollsters that they will vote for Vice President Biden. iIf there are DU members who voted for trump in 2016 or who plan to vote for trump this cycle, then such persons are violating the core principles of this board.

I am a proud member of the Democratic Party and I will be voting for the nominee of the party

Joe Biden won South Carolina and a ton of other primaries due to the support of African American voters who are key members of the base of the party. It would be a foolish waste of time to try to win the support of the white racist sanders supporters who hate President Obama and who voted for trump in 2016. The party should not try to appease these racist sanders supporters and since these voters hated President Obama, these voters will not support the candidate who is closest to President Obama

Again I am glad that the primaries are over and that Joe Biden is in general election mode. There is no need to attempt to appease sanders supporters more than what has already been done

[Gore1FL]

165. I am not going to argue with you on being civil anymore

You keep changing the subject.

Be nice. Bother me no more.

[The Magistrate]

143. There Is A Purge After Every Primary, Sir

It seems to be in the nature of things. People press and press on in a forlorn hope, and it turns them bitter past the point of self-control when defeat is final. If 'Bernie' had the least respect for his followers, he would not tune them up to ever higher heat as he led them to this inevitable defeat. He would spare them the dregs of the cup, and stand down before it is too late for them....





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[ehrnst]

125. Tell that to Bernie. (nt)

[Aquaria]

181. You first, cupcake

Because you're the ones holding grudges toward the REAL Democratic voters for rejecting BS and his stale old bullshit. He lost, and doesn't have the decency to get out of the race when he has no chance to win it. So why stay in at this point, other than assuaging his bloody-minded ego and destroy that which rejected him, like a spoiled toddler who's missed his nap? He's too damned selfish and blinded by his own Trumpian-grade narcissism to accept that the majority of the voters don't want a whining old curmudgeon or his tired, half-assed "ideas" that he stole from better and smarter Democrats.

It's beyond apparent that he has no real interest in getting rid of IQ4.5. It's always been about seizing power for himself alone, and pumping up his useless ego. We're just supposed to hand the nomination and White House to him, because he thinks he's entitled to it. He doesn't seem to get the idea of needing to work for it at all. You know, by winning over voters, rather than expecting them to do what he tells them to.

We've already spent three years dealing with the results of electing that kind of megalomaniac. We don't need it from the likes of BS, too.

And we don't need the passive-aggressive threats from his supporters or the enablers who were going to vote exactly like they did in 2016. The sane amongst the BS supporters will vote for the Democratic nominee--and most of them are that sane. As for the rest? Those BSers have fooled no one all these years. REAL liberals know them for what they are: When they're not supercilious slackers about getting to the polls, they're the ones who won't hesitate to throw women, minorities, the poor, the sick, the elderly, workers, the environment, and all the rest under the bus if they don't get their way.

So why should anyone give a damn what those perennial malcontents want? When they're not voting against Democrats, they don't vote, so the WISE CHOICE is not to indulge them. It's much easier to tell them to vote how they're going to vote (or not), then tell them to run along so the grownups can talk about how to get record turnout from the base of women and minorities (NOT "progressives" who overrate their percentage in the party). That, and winning over those suburban moms and independents--you know, the people who not only have zero interest in anything BS has to offer and who actually do vote, unlike far too many of the wannabe revolutionary BSers.

You see, the threat of staying home on 3 November only works if you actually have the votes to count on. And this primary has shown us that the votes Democrats can expect from BSers will be just about the same as what Hillary got in 2016. You only get to make demands if you demonstrate that you have something more to give. Having the same old same old to offer isn't much of a bargaining chip.

Welcome to reality.

[Gothmog]

218. I was at the convention and sanders conduct at the convention was really sad

Here is the way that a real Democrat handled this issue

Link to tweet

[hack89]

109. If they are willing to vote for Trump they are not reachable

how do you reason with someone who thinks keeping Trump in office is an acceptable outcome?

[The Magistrate]

110. Probably One Cannot, Sir

But they can be understood....

The 'further left' traditionally take as their chief enemy parties and political figures of the center left, rather than parties and figures of the right. This is because a strong center-left party balks any possibility of revolution. It will have the allegiance of most working people, because it will bring them real benefits in their lives, and by doing so, will shut off influence of the 'further left' by making it clear measures well short of the desperate expedients the 'further left' prescribes for improving the lot of working people are not necessary.

Because center-left parties do uphold the present order of society, the 'further left' sees them as obstacles to its desires quite as much as any reactionary party on the right. Thus you have the 'not a dime's worth of difference' line that views our two major parties as interchangeable. Since the 'further left' cannot comprehend how working people could possibly form an honest attachment to rightist parties, their view comes to be that center-left parties are their chief obstacle to mass support from working people, and they imagine that if center-left parties are broken, they will inherit the mass support of working people, and thus become predominant. Then it will be the time to deal with the reactionary right, but until it is the 'further left' which has undisputed leadership of working people, the reactionary right cannot be dealt with properly.

Properly, here, indicating a policy guided by the slogan quite popular in the radical salad days of the seventies: 'What's the solution? Revolution!' Few nowadays on the 'further left' dream of an actual, barricades and snipers and car-bombs sort of armed revolution, but they do envision a complete overthrow of existing economic and social arrangements. One of the things they fail to understand about working people, and people on the lower rungs of the economic scale generally, is that people who have not much but do have a little are extremely reluctant to put the little they have at risk, and they know that in turmoil and tumult that little will be at risk. There are strains of the 'further left' which do have some understanding of this, and their view is that working people must be made to lose that little they have now, and lose it to the unmitigated predation of the reactionary right. Only then, when they have nothing to lose, will working people be ready for revolution under the banner of the 'further left'. This provides such people still another reason to oppose and demolish center left parties, as these do mitigate the suffering the right would impose on working people, and so are the chief force in balking revolution. These elements view an initial triumph of the reactionary right as an essential step in their own program to achieve revolution, and so are actually quite pleased by the reactionary right achieving political success at the expense of center-left parties.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

111. Who says they are willing to vote for Trump

Someone arguing against me earlier (this thread or another ) said 75% voted for Clinton. I suspect a good deal of the remaining 25% voted for someone besides Trump or didn't vote. They are very reachable and it is a far better strategy than trying to reduce the 75% number.

To win we need votes. We aren't going to get them by throwing feces at the prospects.

[hack89]

112. Sanders is throwing feces at me with reckless abandon

and I am the one that has to bend over backwards to placate his supporters? Don't think so.

[Gore1FL]

113. So you are suggesting we all live by that standard or should we set a better more inclusive one?

Race-to-the-bottom arguments aren't the solution to winning in November.

[hack89]

133. So you are saying Dems need to be better than Sanders and his supporters?

that the onus is completely on us to bring together the different sides? Really?

[Gore1FL]

136. We can say that if it makes us more civil.

Yes the onus is on us to get votes for our candidate; welcome to democracy.

[hack89]

138. But democracy requires compromise

What is Bernie willing to compromise? You are telling me that democracy requires me to accept unending abuse with no promises of anything positive in return. I have raised toddlers- I know exactly how to handle Bernie bro’s - you ignore them because they don’t care. All they want is their egos stroked - the ability to vent their rage and frustration. Don’t have time for that.

[Gore1FL]

139. Why is Bernie part of the equation of us being good actors?

Being civil doesn't require compromise. It requires being civil. In your last post you clipped off several insults and said you don't have time for them.

Your attitude is the problem. Division is why we lose. You are every bit as guilty of it as the Sanders team.

All I ask is people be civil and understand the perspectives of others. That used to be a Democratic value.

[hack89]

140. Bernie is not civil. Neither are his bro's

So why do you think civility on my part will change them? They are driven by irrational impulses impervious to civility. Why bother?

The simple fact is most of them will do well under Trump. That is the only rational explanation for their behavior. They have nothing to lose.

[Gore1FL]

146. So you want to become more like those you dislike? Why let them set the bar?

It seems like being more like you want them to be like is the answer. We can and should set the bar higher.

[hack89]

151. Are they incapable of being like me?

Because if that is the case why should I care about them?

[Gore1FL]

152. "Why should I care about them?"

I assumed you were interested in winning in November.

[hack89]

161. I assume they are too

Which means I shouldn't need to kiss their asses for them to begrudgingly oppose Trump and vote for Biden.

[The Magistrate]

162. Well Said, Sir

There is a peculiar sort of identity politics at work here.

Both Sanders and his most dedicated supporters are more concerned with the identity they present, to themselves and to others, than anything else.

Sanders in his colossal egotism conflates support for certain policy goals with desire for him to be the leader of a movement to achieve those goals.

This is nonesense.

Even leaving aside the fact that most of those goals are general among Democratic voters and enjoy broad support among Democratic office-holders and Party officials, virtually no one, not even among Sanders' supporters, thinks he can actually achieve them should he come to hold the highest office in the land.

Expressions of support for Sanders are made as a marker of political orientation. Expressing support for Sanders says 'I'm not a moderate, I'm well to the left of most people', and as with most such things, serves to identify a 'cool' group separate from the general run of 'squares'. People doing this do not even particularly want to prevail, in the sense of being in the majority. It is axiomatic that a majority can never be 'cool', the feeling of being 'hip' and part of an 'in-crowd' depends on being outnumbered by the host of the unwashed and unenlightened. The point is not to achieve any political goal, to secure any discrete reform, it is simply to be sure one is perceived as a particular, and special, kind of person.

People who have an actual interest in achieving the goals widespread among Democrats, the goals of all left and progressive and liberal persons in general, recognize readily Sanders is far too flawed as a politician, and as a personality, to make any progress towards their goals. They know Sanders has not achieved any measurable advance towards them in his long Congressional career. They know Sanders' claim to hold patents and copyrights on these goals is nonesense, because they know their own desires pre-date Sanders, and exist in their hearts and minds without the slightest reference to him or influence by him.

In short, while Sanders imagines himself to be the indispensable man, an overwhelming majority of Democratic voters are clear in their minds that Sanders is quite dispensable, and are determined to see him disposed of, as soon as possible.

No one on the left, no one who has any desire to actually achieve any of the goals left and progressive and liberal people desire, ought to need any prompting to rally against this cheap thug Trump. Anypne who does just wants to look 'cool' and pose as superior to the poor fools taken in by a rigged system. Which, when you look at it square, isn't really a leftist attitude at all....





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gore1FL]

172. Maybe you could get them to share your definition of "winning."

Because, frankly, if I based my November vote on my interactions on this thread, alone, I wouldn't be encouraged to do so for Biden.
Fortunately, for Biden, he has my vote no matter how badly people on DU behave.

[hack89]

178. If you are satisfied with Trump then there is nothing I can do, now is there?

My definition of winning is a Democrat in the White House. There are only two choices. Why should Bernie supporters need to be persuaded to oppose Trump? Sounds like they will be happy with Trump - if that is the case then they are beyond reason and it is a waste of time trying to persuade them. “Some people just want to watch the world burn”.

[Gore1FL]

184. To win we need voters

So telling our natural allies that they can fuck off is counter-productive to that task.

Can you please explain to me why being nice is sucha horrible concept to you that insist on debating against it for over a day?

I though being decent to people was a left-value default, Apparently it is not.

[hack89]

192. But we can't give them what they want.

We can't tear down the Democratic establishment - that is us. We can't wholesale adopt Bernie's platform over Biden's - the voters have chosen otherwise. What the fuck exactly do you want us to do? Apologize for winning?

[Gothmog]

117. Facts matter in the real world

The facts are that 25% of sanders supporters helped to elect trump by either voting for trump, voting for a third party candidate like Stein (who like sanders was supported by Russia) or stayed home

Link to tweet

This is based on the Cooperative Congressional Election survey https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social

That is according to the data from the Cooperative Congressional Election Study — a massive election survey of around 50,000 people. (For perspective, a run-of-the-mill survey measuring Trump's job approval right now has a sample of 800 to 1,500.)

It appears that the sanders supporters who voted for trump where (I) not really Democrats, (ii) did not like President Obama and (iiii) were racists

Link to tweet

Party seems to have had something to do with it — Sanders-Trump voters were much less likely than Sanders-Clinton or Sanders-third party voters to have been Democrats. Likewise, approval of President Barack Obama appears to be related — Sanders-Trump voters approved of Obama much less than other Sanders primary voters.

Link to tweet

And then there is race. Nearly half of Sanders-Trump voters disagree with the idea that "white people have advantages."

Link to tweet

This tracks with broader observations about election 2016 — for example, as I wrote last week, in general, the larger a state's general-election Trump vote, the less likely its residents are to perceive a lot of discrimination in the world, according to data from the Public Religion Research Institute. And another postelection study — co-authored by Schaffner — found a "relatively strong indication that racism and sexism were more important in 2016 than they had been in previous elections."

These are voters that the Democratic Party should not be courting or counting on. There is nothing that Biden or the party is going to do to win over these voters. Appeasing these voters will only alienate the base of the party such as voters who are proud to be Democrats, who approve of President Obama and who are not racists.

I do not feel like appeasing these voters. The only thing that will make these voters happy is the party making sanders the nominee over the objections of 70% of the party

[Gore1FL]

124. Do we make inroads on that 25% or should we try to lose the other 75%?

I prefer making inroads on that 25%, realizing that we might not reach the 5% that voted for Trump.

You keep using the word "appease." Try "respect" and "understand" as your word and attitude choices, instead.

[Gothmog]

134. The only way to appease the 25% is to bend the knee and anoint sanders as nominee

Read the material on the people who voted for trump in 2016. These people are lost causes in the real world and the only way to get their vote would be to anoint sanders as the nominee.

70% of the party has rejected sanders as the nominee. The primary is over. The only one who want the primary to continue are trump and Putin.

[Gore1FL]

137. So you say.

Maybe we should start by treating them as fellow liberals, fellow Americans, and fellow human beings, first and see how that works.

[Gothmog]

141. People who vote for trump or stein are not Democrats

The sanders supporters who voted for trump or who voted for Stein are not Democrats and it is a total waste of time trying to appeal to these people. Again look at the materials posted, these people are not members of the party, hate President Obama and are racists. These are people who are lost causes and trying to appease these people will hurt the party with turnout from real democrats including turnout from African American voters. I prefer appealing to African American voters compared to trying to appease these racist sanders supporters

[Gore1FL]

144. Then don't bitch if they don't come out for Biden.

It was your choice to not try to change it.

[Gothmog]

217. I am still waiting for an explanation of how one wins the vote of racists who hate President Obama

Exactly how does one win the vote of white racists sanders supporters who hate President Obama and who voted for trump in 2016. You seem to think that these voters are in play and I would love to understand the basis for this theory.

[George II]

122. You should check out Sanders supporters on Twitter.

[Gore1FL]

123. Sanders isn't getting the nomination.

I would like to have Sanders voters on Team Biden in Fall 2020. I really don't understand why this position is controversial.

[George II]

121. Who even knows if they're really Sanders supporters or, for that matter, would vote for Sanders....

...if he got the nomination.

People should reread the Mueller report.

[Gothmog]

214. Russia and Putin have been busy supporting sanders and trump supporters want to run against sanders

trump and Putin know that sanders is a weak candidate and have been trying to help sanders

[George II]

216. It's all in Mueller's report.

[Gothmog]

225. Why did Bernie Sanders drop out? The progressive majority he needed doesn't exist

There was no magical voter revolution

Link to tweet

Biden’s vision has now won out: He is the apparent Democratic nominee after Sanders suspended his campaign Wednesday following a mid-pandemic Wisconsin primary marred by vast polling site closures and a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that effectively invalidated many absentee ballots. (Sanders said Monday, given the risks to voters, his campaign would not engage in traditional efforts to get them to the polls.)….

And in particular, his decisive win over Sanders in the primary — without even campaigning in many states — further highlights the limitations of progressive politics in America, at least in winning a national campaign.

Sanders, a self-described democratic socialist, made a bad bet on the existence of a national progressive majority (as did Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., who ran as a progressive populist but dropped out after Super Tuesday). It turns out there's nothing even close.

In fact, it’s not even clear that a progressive majority exists within the Democratic Party. What does exist is a moderately center-left party with a vocal progressive element.

Sanders frequently said on the campaign trail that he was leading a “multigenerational, multiracial movement,” pledging to mobilize an army of new, young voters. But it turns out older and moderate voters are the ones that grew as a share of the Democratic primary electorate since 2016 — and they favored Biden by a wide margin.

Take the South Carolina primary on Feb. 29, which Biden won, or the 10 of 14 states he captured on Super Tuesday: In all, he appealed to the same coalitions that boosted Democrats so strongly in the 2018 midterm elections, turning out large numbers of suburban voters, while maintaining support from longstanding elements of the Democratic coalition, particularly African American voters.....

Still, with the 2020 Democratic primary process essentially over, it’s clear that the hard-core Democratic left was deluded in their assertions that they were the new Democratic majority. They are going to need a better grip on reality if they are to be successful at the national level moving forward

[Gothmog]

52. A large number of real Democrats have very good memories

These real Democrats do not forgive or forget

Link to tweet

[The Magistrate]

107. No, Sir, We Do Not

"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gothmog]

118. I am a proud member of the Democratic Party

I have a very good memory and I will not forgive or forget

[Kahuna]

66. I gave up on that 15% the day after the election in 2016. They don't

care about the consequences of their actions.

[Tarheel_Dem]

68. The sooner the better. 👍

[onetexan]

119. spot on - "Vanity Project"

[The Magistrate]

155. You've a Good Deal More Patience Than I Have Ever Had, Sir

"There are none so blind as them that do not want to see."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gothmog]

157. I am a lawyer and ex-college debater

I am amused by posters who think that pursuing the white racist sanders supporters who voted for trump or who want to vote for trump is an appropriate use of resources. I live in the real world and I have seen these sanders supporters up close at the National Convention and know that it would be a waste of time and money to pursue these idiots.

[kimbutgar]

177. I was originally a Bernie fan but when Hillary got the nomination i changed my support to her.

He appeared to sit it out and didn’t do enough to tell his supporters to get behind Hillary. I have detested him ever since. He is in for himself and his ego. He should have been forceful in 2016 for his supporters to vote for Hillary. He was so lukewarm. Bernie drop out and let’s all get behind Biden so we can get rid of that evil orange incompetent MFer.

[Hortensis]

198. :) Yes! But Sanders' 25% would never have voted Democrat

because he was forced out or any other reason. Oh, a few of the confused and over-influenced, but very few, evidenced by the nonvoter stats.

The rest are what they are. Every election they vote hostility and dysfunction and call it principle. We notice them in this era because electoral margins are so thin that it gives them the chance to act as spoilers. And people doomed to spend most of their life angrily irrelevant aren't about to miss out on that. In 2016 and now, Sanders was their best chance to spite the Democratic Party.

Very, very different from those who were genuinely inspired by the goals he claimed.

[Gothmog]

185. Some top Sanders advisers urge him to consider withdrawing

Link to tweet

A small group of Bernie Sanders’s top aides and allies — including his campaign manager and his longtime strategist — have encouraged the independent senator from Vermont to consider withdrawing from the presidential race, according to two people with knowledge of the situation.

The group includes campaign manager Faiz Shakir and Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), a top Sanders surrogate and ally, according to the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe sensitive private discussions.

Sanders himself has become more open to the prospect of dropping out, according to one of the people with knowledge of the situation and another close ally, especially if he suffers a significant defeat in Tuesday’s Wisconsin primary, which polls suggest Joe Biden will win handily.

Beyond Shakir and Jayapal, longtime strategist Jeff Weaver has privately made a case that exiting the race more quickly and on good terms with Biden would give Sanders more leverage in the long run, according to one of the people; the other said Weaver has used a light touch in presenting his case. Weaver and Jayapal did not return calls and messages seeking comment. Shakir declined to comment.

[GeorgiaPeanut]

200. The 25% or so of Sanders' supporters

who want to vote for Trump because they didn't get their pony can be safely written off.

There are way more voters to be had in the "never communist" pool of voters near the center.

[Gothmog]

201. It would be a waste of time to pursue and to try to appease these voters

One cannot deal with racist non-democrats who hated President Obama,

[Gothmog]

212. It is okay to ignore sanders

Link to tweet

?s=20

[Gothmog]

220. Biden needs to focus on moderate voters

Link to tweet

[The Magistrate]

221. True, Sir

"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

[Gothmog]

222. Biden gets the official support of the NeverTrumpwe GOP group that runs all those devastating ads

Link to tweet

[Me.]

227. Wish I Could R This A Million Times

[in2herbs]

228. In looking for a silver lining in all this "stuff" I am seeing that the 2024 pres election will

not have Bernie or Biden as candidates due to age. So I would say if Bernie wants to leave a positive legacy he should openly support a D administration of the 2020 presumptive presidential candidate's choosing.

[redstatebluegirl]

229. True this!