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Member since: 2001
Number of posts: 7,393

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All politics are flawed

Ours are just less flawed than the other side. If you want to win you need to think more pragmatically. You need numbers, the majority, control of the WH. And when you get the WH for long enough you also get the courts. And if we get the courts that's worth A LOT.

In facts it's worth most of the (eventual) change you want to see.

You have to think more strategically. And honestly, you have to get a seat at the table. I'm very liberal and agree on principle with most of you here. Maybe not FP, but with just about everything else. I'm just saying you're going about it the wrong way. IMO.

P.S. I already knew you didn't care if I was nice to you. That part was a joke.

Would you feel better...

If I closed my business and laid off 22 employees and took away their 100% paid health insurance, bonuses, 401k and other benefits?

Am I evil because I'm successful even though I run my business based on liberal principles?

Will my folks be better off if the fringe left tears down our front runner 24/7 and helps a rethug get elected? I don't think so. I care about the people that work for me.

You know I tell my family all the time - we'll be okay either way. If rethugs take the WH our taxes will go down. It will be a gravy train for us. But if a democrat prevails the world will be a better place. I vote for the latter. Always have and always will.

You should catch this thread....


"The Hill" breathlessly contrasted Bernie's speaking fees with Bill and Hillary's. Except they forgot to add that senate rules prohibit Bernie from taking speaking fees.

Thread died when I posted the senate ethics rules. LOL!

HRC on the record

I see quite a bit of erroneous info posted here about HRC. Sadly, some comes from right wing talking points and sites. But some just looks made up out of whole cloth.

Well, we have a solution. Here is an excellent web site that lays out her voting record, policy position, and statements. Yes, facts. Facts are a wonderful thing. They always help foster intelligent discussion.


Enjoy. And please feel free to use the facts "liberally."

Not since LBJ

... have "liberals" and so called Democrats worked so hard to bring down their party's front runner in a presidential campaign. Sure they did it to Gore too, but not with as much vehemence as they are directing at HRC (unless you count Ralph's vehemence).

The result was Nixon and Bush.

As far as I can tell those are the only two victories the far left has ever obtained. Helping to elect republican presidents.

Sure, they COULD boost their preferred candidate without tearing down the front runner. But that's not how they roll. Sad.

The Gish Gallop of the HRC bashers

For those not familiar with the Gish Gallop: "The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that their opponent cannot possibly answer or address each one in real time. More often than not, these myriad arguments are full of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments — the only condition is that there be many of them, not that they be particularly compelling on their own. They may be escape hatches or "gotcha" arguments that are specifically designed to be brief, but take a long time to unravel. Thus, galloping is frequently used in timed debates (especially by creationists) to overwhelm one's opponent."

It's a technique primarily used by the right, for lack of an actual argument. But I have seen the dreaded technique being used by the Anti-HRC'ers as well. Obviously the hope is that no one will actually wade through all of the links they produce, so the reader, by default, will just assume the links are valid arguments. That's the Gish Gallopers hope, anyway.

Let's unpack one of these posts (copied and pasted, with my very brief comment under each).

Edited to add: Here is the link to the original wall of blue links Gish Gallop that I am responding to:

The Clinton Dynasty's Horrific Legacy: More Drug War, More Prisons

This article is about Bill Clinton, and has nothing to do with HRC.

Hillary Clinton's leading role in drafting the TPP

HRC did not "draft" the TPP, and the linked article says nothing of the kind. It talks about her role in opening foreign markets to American businesses. That is one of the roles of the SoS, whoever it happens to be at the time.

Hillary's TPP will mean a pay cut for 90 percent of American workers.

It's not "Hillary's TPP." Again, her involvement is one of the roles of the SoS, whoever it happens to be at the time. Why try to pretend otherwise?

Hillary pushes for increases in H1B visas and outsourcing.

HB1 Visas are for allowing workers to come HERE and work. Not to outsource jobs overseas. But hey, thanks for the right wing, Lou Dobbs take on it. Gotta love when liberals adopt right wing talking points.

Hillary Clinton and Trade Deals: That “Giant Sucking Sound”

She has spoken out against free trade agreements many times since entering politics as a candidate. And her voting record on trade is identical to Sanders.

Hillary Clinton Cheerleads for Biotech and GMOs

Believe it or not, that whole screed linked in that article contains a single quote from HRC: “Maybe there’s a way of getting a representative group of actors at the table” to discuss how the federal government could help the Biotech industry with “insurance against risk,” she said.

Apparently she is not a great "cheerleader."

Dissecting Hillary Clinton's Neocon Talking Points - Atlantic Interview

Dead link in the DU post. I'm thinking people should check that before including it in a gish gallop. You never know when someone will check it. I'm going to guess this is the same link that is repeated at least 3 times in this list. The Gish Gallop needs a volume of posts, even if you have to repeat them to get the volume.

NYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.

This is an op-ed that wonders if the neo-cons will try to ally with HRC. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.

Hillary Clinton, the unrepentant hawk

This is an op-ed in the Chi Tribune by a guy who also writes for the right wing nut job site, Townhall. More republican talking points.

More from Hillary Clinton's State Department: The fascistic TISA (Trade in Services Agreement)

HRC doesn't own the State Department. There is not a single solitary word about HRC in the linked article.

How Hillary Clinton's State Department sold fracking to the world

"Under her leadership, the State Department worked closely with energy companies to spread fracking around the globe—part of a broader push to fight climate change, boost global energy supply, and undercut the power of adversaries such as Russia that use their energy resources as a cudgel."

Wow, how nefarious of her.

Hillary Clinton Sides with NSA over Snowden Disclosures

This one is true. Wow, 1 out of 12 ain't bad?

On the NSA, Hillary Clinton Is Either a Fool or a Liar

The op-ed offers no support of the accusation that HRC is either "a fool or a liar" - it is basically the same as the above. Pissed off because she supports the NSA over Snowden. I disagree with her on that just like the gish galloper, apparently. 2 out of 13!

Corporate Warfare: Hillary Clinton admits role in Honduran coup aftermath

From the linked article - “In the subsequent days [after the coup] I spoke with my counterparts around the hemisphere, including Secretary [Patricia] Espinosa in Mexico,” Clinton writes. “We strategized on a plan to restore order in Honduras and ensure that free and fair elections could be held quickly and legitimately, which would render the question of Zelaya moot.” Again, how nefarious of her! Not sure how the Corporate Warfare link comes in. But throwing in stuff like that is what gish gallopers do.

The Bill and Hillary Clinton Money Machine Taps Corporate Cash

So apparently the gish galloper wants Democrats to simply roll over and die instead of try to match the republican presidential Koch brothers money machine?

Hillary's Privatization Plan: TISA kept more secret than the TPP

Again, not “Hillary’s plan” and the linked article does not even mention her.

Hillary Clinton criticizes Obama's foreign policy 'failure'; strongly defends Israel

From our right wing friends at Yahoo corporate news. In any case, this was about a conflict initiated by Hamas. I personally think both Hamas and BiBi are terrorists. In other instances she has said critical things about Israel too. So this is a slanted distortion of her overall views, which almost exactly mirror those of Sanders. (The Gish Galloper is a strong Sanders supporter).

Some of Hillary Clinton's statements on Social Security.

This one actually links to her voting record and statements on the issue of SS. Good! Nothing damming there, but then it devolves into Bill’s thoughts on the issue, as if HRC is incapable of having her own thoughts and opinions on issues.


This one seems to take issue with the fact that the Clinton Foundation used a donated auditorium space owned by Goldman for a meeting. Classic Gish Gallop bullshit.

Ring of Fire: Hillary Clinton - The Perfect Republican Candidate

This is a video by someone you never heard of that agrees with the Gish Galloper. The basic premise is someone who used to work for HRC got a job with some company in Canada that supports the Keystone Pipeline. And that’s all you got here.

How Americans Need Answers From Hillary Clinton On TPP, KXL, Wall St & More

This one is a video of someone you never heard of and their own Gish Gallop screed. The takeaway I got is the this guy isn’t any more familiar with her actual statements and voting record than most of the HRC bashers.

Hillary Clinton Left Out By Liberal Donor Club

Ah, Politico – another excellent right wing media source. The article is actually about liberal donors meeting with Warren and Biden. Here is what the organizer said about the canard Politico was pushing: “He dismissed any effort to read into the appearances by Warren and Biden but not Clinton. “None of this has to do with presidential politics, and none of the people you asked about are declared presidential candidates,” he said Wednesday. “Once we have an actual contest, if we do have one, the DA will have to thread carefully through it, since we are scrupulously neutral, and people like you are always looking for signs.”

Ah, Politico again. Another OP-ed piece. The author quotes Clinton saying: ““Don’t let anyone tell you that it’s corporations and businesses that create jobs,” Clinton said, erroneously echoing a meme Warren made famous during an August 2011 speech at a home in Andover, Massachusetts. “You know that old theory, trickle-down economics? That has been tried, that has failed. It has failed rather spectacularly.”

And then spends the rest of the piece trying to convince us she didn’t mean it.

Another OP-Ed. No quotes by Hillary, just lots of opinion and innuendo – most featuring the word “apparently” – which translates to “I have nothing to back this up, but I am going to say it anyway”. Also wrong about various Iraq war funding votes HRC took as a senator. At this point, I have to ask…. Why do gish gallopers think OP-Eds prove anything? They aren’t facts – they are opinions.

Interactive graphic of Hillary Clinton's connections to the Forbes top 400 (Follow link in post)

OMG – I never would have thought someone who has worked in the highest level of government for DECADES would know powerful people. Seriously? This may be the most ridiculous link in the list.

The Warmongering Record of Hillary Clinton "I urged him to bomb..."

Okay, we will put the Gish Galloper down for being in favor of the genocide that was occurring in Yugoslavia. Apparently we should not have stopped that. Also, Bill was president then, not Hillary.

Hillary Clinton criticizes Obama's foreign policy 'failure'; strongly defends Israel

This is a repeat. See above. I guess it reappears for effect.

Hillary defends Israel on Gaza carpet bombing

Ah, Politico again. Same story as above - repeated 3 times in this list (so far). But remember, Gish Gallop is about VOLUME!

Hillary tacks right of Obama on foreign policy.

This one comes from the right wing WSJ. Can’t read the story because I do not have a subscription. I don’t subscribe to right wing news sites. Apparently Gish gallopers do.

Dissecting Hillary Clinton's Neocon Talking Points - Atlantic Interview

This is another video by someone you never heard of (same guy you never heard of above) going on his own gish gallop screed. It’s not actually about the Atlantic Interview as suggested above, unless you mean someone you never heard of videoing himself as he comments on the interview and lots of other stuff.

NYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.

This is a repeat of the OP Ed above wondering if the “neocons are getting ready to ally with Clinton.” Again, the gish gallop is about the sheer number of things you can throw into the kitchen sink. And there is no real expectation anyone will actually read it, or click through on the links. So repeating them even in the same post is a tried and true gish gallop technique

Hillary Clinton, the unrepentant hawk

Another dupe from above. This is the guy who writes for the right wing nutjob site, Townhall.com (as noted above)

Hillary Clinton Praises George W. Bush and the Art of Compromise

She’s talking about how she got $20 billion in funding from Bush to address the 9/11 disaster in NYC. How horrible, huh?

Hillary Clinton's role in right-wing Honduran coup and aftermath

Another exact dupe from above. This person is an expert Gish Galloper!

Hillary Clinton's Horrifying Iraq War Vote Still Matters.

An OP-Ed about how HRC’s Iraq war vote matters. Yes, of course it does. She has addressed it many times over the past 7-8 years.

Secret recordings show US military and a Democratic congressman distrusted Hillary Clinton on Libya (lying, manipulating intelligence)

Fox News video. LOL! More right wing talking points.

Hillary Clinton Blasts ‘Unfair’ World Reaction Over Gaza, Cites Anti-Semitism As Factor

Another article about the Hamas rocket attacks in 2014 and HRC condemning them. I am losing count on how many times this EXACT same issue has been added to this list.

Obama didn't go as far as Hillary now says she wanted to go in smashing Syria

This one links to an Op-Ed at a vanity blog about Paul Wolfowitz and then devolves into a screed about Syria, and then BENGHAZI!!!! It’s quite the rant. Doesn’t make much sense, but it’s an amazing rant.

Hand in Hand With Kissinger: A Review of Hillary Clinton’s Review

This pertains to a book review on Kissinger’s book that HRC did for the Washington Post. The gist seems to be we are facing the same or similar problems in the world today as Kissinger writes about. I don’t know what the “Hand in Hand” comment means in the Gish Gallopers description. She points out that the Obama administration and Nixon administrations did have policy differences. Here is a representative sample of the book review text: “In his new book, “World Order,” Henry Kissinger explains the historic scope of this challenge. His analysis, despite some differences over specific policies, largely fits with the broad strategy behind the Obama administration’s effort over the past six years to build a global architecture of security and cooperation for the 21st century.”

Hillary Clinton Serves Us KISSINGER KOOL-AID

As above. Different Op-Ed but same story as above – her book review of the Kissinger book. Which can be read here, by the way: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/hillary-clinton-reviews-henry-kissingers-world-order/2014/09/04/b280c654-31ea-11e4-8f02-03c644b2d7d0_story.html

MJ - Hillary Clinton Praises a Guy With Lots of Blood on His Hands

As above. Third article on the nerve of HRC to write a book review on Kissinger’s book. Gotta wear that one out, apparently.

And that, my friends, is today's lesson on the "Gish Gallop" and why you should not fall for it. Happy Friday!

Real Democrats brought you....

Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIPS, ACA, marriage equality, environmental and consumer protections, worker protection and rights, constant pressure on the minimum wage, unemployment benefits, Civil rights, voting rights, a shit ton of awesome federal and USSC justices, among other things.

Now what has the far left accomplished that even comes close to that?

Is that what you call these links?

Because here is what you got:

1. HRC's role in the TPP was the same as every SoS in a potential U.S. trade pact. No more, no less. It's an international negotiation.

2. It's not ""Hillary's" TPP, and a post by someone else who claims that doesn't make that so.

3. Yeah, that's what she has said is wrong with it - it will hurt US workers. I think that is exactly the same reason she voted against CAFTA in 2005.

To me they are those that....

.... that believe their PERFECT political candidate exists, and that every other candidate is awful and corrupt. (and they insult and disdain anyone who doesn't share their reverence for their chosen one).

Then they project that image of perfection on to the chosen demigod they have created in their head. Naturally, in time, they realize their demigod is not really a demigod after all. Reality eventually sets in. Their perfect candidate (who never actually existed) becomes the awful corrupt one, and a new demigod is anointed.

For a recent example see Obama 2007 and Obama 2015.

I don't have a side

As I have repeated about 100 times now, I welcome ALL Democrats in the race. I don't believe in bashing any Democrat. I know you do, but I do not share your view.

I will donate to every Dem in the primary (with the exception of Chafee if he runs). I believe in a robust primary process. The nomination is decided by the time my state holds one. I wil vote for the Democratic nominee in the general.

And now I will journal this so I can cut and paste it when "you folks" snarl at me because I won't pledge my fealty to your preferred candidate.
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