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Member since: 2002
Number of posts: 4,062

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In the U.S. foxconn would be sunk under wrongful death lawsuits.

That's why our greedy corrupt companies like it over there. Lots of exploitative "cheap labor" who work because they're over a barrel. Of course, since we're talking Apple, it's ok.

In fact, may I propose the term IOKIYA -- "It's okay if you're Apple" so that we can conclude threads like this with less bandwidth. It can be used both seriously and ironically with the right inflection.

Sorry, your OP was corporate PR spin. It got shredded.

And as each thread of it was destroyed, you simply stopped discussing that part and pretended it was never said.

Even now -- what EXACTLY are you trying to say here?

Paragraph 1: Apple would pay money for your testimonial. Seems like an Ad.

Paragraph 2: Apple would also pay money for your testimonial. Seems like an Ad.

Paragraph 3: Why is everybody always picking on me?

Yeah, I think Apples are dumbed down trash. But then again, any restrictive use of technology -- especially one that depends so heavily on a model of vertical integration and closed access -- is not one for me. That's just individual choice and I'd playfully accept your accusations that I am a member of an anti-Apple cult in that regard. I tease my apple oriented co-workers endlessly and when they find an advantage over me they tease me back. That's just good techie fun.

But you have given me an education here by forcing me to pay attention. You've proven that what originally was merely a dislike for "hipster technology" is actually grounded in distrust for a large, wealthy multinational corporation whose actions are in conflict with their benevolent public face.

Your company is an UNDISPUTED financial leader. Every time you tried to say that "everybody does it" if you break it down by computing revenues it pretty much boils down to "Apple and a few smaller players" do it. Apple has a public image that is PART of their business model. If they cannot take responsibility for what they do, I have zero respect for anything associated with them becaise they are just more "cheap labor" liars like Nike and the other textile companies.

Contracting through a corp-funded group like FLA would not have been as impressive as, you know, actually doing something. The bit about your FLA representatives using IPADS for their surveys turned my stomach on the issue for good. I've been involved in enough activities where I had to sign CONFLICT OF INTEREST statements that I can easily recognize it's appearance. That's NOT how an independent group would behave, nor would it be relevant for a SERIOUS story about inspections of this sort. That was a sentence planted by a marketer to re-emphasize the utility of the product. In a way, just like the post I'm responding to now.

And then I found that article where Mr. Jobs explained why Apple jobs will not be returning jobs to this country. Well, then it gets more personal. I guess I have a bit of tribalism in me yet and I've been through Detroit enough times to understand what Shenzhen means for the lives of actual people I know.

Apple's publically stated position is that U.S. workers do not posess sufficient skills or motivation for them. I resent that and resent them for having such a high-handed arrogant egotistical opinion.

Based on just that SINGLE sentence, Apple is not a company I will EVER support financially or in any other way.

Sorry if you take that personally. At least we both do that much.

You make no sense. Why would ruining a perfectly functional TV make this better?

You certainly didn't read many of the previous posts in this thread. I forgive you partly. It's very repetitive because of refrain of "but everybody does it" whining that's supposed to serve as some kind of magic-cure-all-STFU line on the part of the Apple apologists.

Your attempt at a humorous barb was poorly chosen given your target. See post 90. If you've given THAT little thought about what would rile me, I can only presume that your understanding of the issue is similarly shallow.

Quite obviously you also didn't READ the article I referenced in my last post. Had you done so, you would have seen the esteemed late Mr. Jobs' excuse as to why the jobs will not come back. I thought about making you look it up out of spite, but I'll spoon feed it just this once because you obviously have a bit of a lazy bone.

See, we've sent SOOOOO many jobs to "cheap labor China" that the industrial concentration there now makes them far more flexible than left-behind America can ever be without massive investment that nobody is willing to make. Even with your American job saving Apple-brand i-robots, it would be a hassle to send them here because last minute production line changes (for example a last minute need for a million microscopic screws) can be easily effected by the other supplies whose factories in China are now blocks, not continents, away from the assembly line.

So, you really did fail at even a basic understanding of this issue. Even Apple's invincible overlord robots will not be coming back here. When we're out of money this time, it's pretty much for good.

Seriously, just read the durned article. I get the impression that you'd be prone to Apple hero-worship so you'll probably enjoy the touching little story about Mr. Jobs' demand for perfection on some glass displays and how the Chinese could fill this demand better than America ever could.

You won't really understand the implications, but basically it just says how in a hole we REALLY are because of our corporations' instatiable greed for "cheap labor." We HAVE crossed the rubicon when our ability to manufacture technology has been completely compromised and that probably will not change anytime soon. That, more than some perceived social slight on TV, brings tears to my eyes. Not that you have displayed any awareness as to why any of us should care.

Oh to heck with it. Why am I ever bothering to shake you out of your stupor. It's basically too late anyway. Just go back and play with your i-whatever for a while until you've been distracted enough that you can't remember what we were talking about. It makes you a better consumer anyway.

Apple says that you too hold a blacksmith's hammer in the brave new "global economy."


The article itself makes a single statement is too simple and direct to be taken out of context:

"Apple executives believe there simply aren’t enough U.S. workers with the skills the company needs or factories with sufficient speed and flexibility."

So by what insane leap of logic do you think these future robot jobs come back? Go on. TRY to argue this one...but you've already lost before you begin. The supply chain COMES here now, it DOESN'T go in the other direction with anything but food.

I started off thinking that this was merely a bad PR move on the part of Apple and a few people on DU with brand loyalty outweighing a sense of decency and fairness.

Then I read this article.

Flat out in black and white Apple DOES NOT SEE a future for itself in this country. Oh yes, they see customers all right but they have obviously detached themselves from any sort of a shared destiny or sense of shared responsibility.

Given foxconn I should have suspected as much, but I guess once again I find myself insufficiently cynical to deal with the actual reality on the ground.

At the end of the article, Jobs told the President that he isn't worried for this country and that while this country is "insanely great" we don't talk enough about solutions.

Mightly rich bullshit considering the President of the United States was minutes before fishing for a solution from him and got shot down in flames. And the statement about not being worried about the country can obviously can be read TWO ways with typical hipster irony.

Support your little logo all you wish, but keep in mind their own words agree with my conclusion that they are no longer an AMERICAN company and thus are unworthy of ANY of my sympathy.

That's true enough, but there are better reasons to SINGLE out Apple.


Hey, it's a simple economics question why SHOULD I support someone who so openly makes it plain that they do not support OUR future?

After the initial blunt statement that the jobs are not coming back there was one other telling quote:

Eventually, the orbits of the men overlapped. “I’m not worried about the country’s long-term future,” Jobs told Obama, according to one observer. “This country is insanely great. What I’m worried about is that we don’t talk enough about solutions.”

Cue the beavis and butthead laughter. We don't talk enough about solutions? This from the man who just flat out said his company's future is OUTSIDE this country.

Another person thought that way as well. I beleive she is quoted by history as saying: "Let them eat CAKE!"

"Would you would you in a box...would you would you with a fox."

Seriously, you're SOOOOO into thinking your moral equivalance card completely and magically excuses Apple that you're pushing this one to absurdist extremes. I just hope for a moment that you actually think about how strange it appears that you insistently push this single TALKING POINT, ignoring all else. In fact, I've continued this discussion long past it being actually interesting because I'm planning on using it as an example in the future.

So for the record, you win: I'm sure if you I gave you permission to loot through my life you'd manage to find something manufactured in China. I can see you now, triumphantly holding up some little shitbang of plastic you found in the bottom of a turned out drawer in my now looted closet and triumphantly exclaiming "See....I proved it! You're a hypocrite! NOW LEAVE POOR APPLE ALOOOOOOONE!!!!"

Enjoy your triumph! It's not like businessmen JUST LIKE STEVE JOBS haven't worked really hard to make sure the alternative is impossible. They saw that "cheap labor" in China and said to themselves "Damn I just gotta tap me some of that...." And not only did they pay LOADS of MONEY to get what they want we also give them tax breaks to do it while their apologists try to tell us it's completely our fault. Where have I seen that line of reasoning recently? Ohhhhhh yeah. The GOP on the safety net. That's a shitty situation that's our fault too. The serial numbers aren't even completely filed off....

So to summarize this for you the presence of some hypothetical piece of crap from China in my closet is NOT, REPEAT NOT, a get out of jail card for APPLE. If poor Apple is all upset thinking they're being singled out perhaps they shouldn't spend millions on advertising to create the impression that they're the "BESTEST COMPANY ON EARTH" cause that kind of raises expectations.

Your prying into my underwear isn't going to change this fundamental fact.

By the way, that particular sweatshop was in Pakistan. Not China.

I looked just now ESPECIALLY for you....

You're welcome and I hope this satisfies you.

Oh yes. People fight hard when desperate. Fundamental tenet of the "cheap labor" movement.

I'm amazed. I just had to explain this on DEMOCRATIC Underground for the THIRD TIME in a single thread.

People are lined up fighting for jobs in this country too. Doesn't mean it's cause the jobs are the greatest, it's just the best option they have. It's why EVERY tenet of the Republican party has the goal of making people desperate -- make the worker be happy for what they got and then pay them a fraction of what they are WORTH while lining your pockets with the difference.

Cheap labor is exactly why the jobs left in the 70's and exactly why APPLE just told President Obama they're not coming back here.

By the way, , that was APPLE EXECUTIVES saying that. Why SHOULDN'T I be singling out your poor darlings for special scorn? Why as a Democrat and a supporter of OUR middle class should I love Apple?

Yeah, the pay compares well but to get that pay they get WORKED LIKE DOGS. Apple is sitting on a mountain of cash and won't do a damned thing to improve that. Ohhhhhhh so ethical. The difference between me and you is that eventually it will be cheaper to go full-robotic in manufacturing. On that day, APPLE will drop their Chinese work force like a used hanky -- try to deny THAT with a straight face. I'll feel pretty bad about it and you'll be full-on talking about the wonderful lifestyle of the lucky few people who got jobs to maintain the robots and fondling your newest year's i-doo-dad.

In the end, though, there is no arguing with "cheap labor" conservatives -- regardless of which political party they ostensibly call their own.

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