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Gender: Male
Hometown: Eastern North Carolina
Home country: United States
Current location: Eastern NC
Member since: Wed Dec 1, 2004, 04:09 PM
Number of posts: 12,148

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My 15yo daughter shot a gun for the first time yesterday

at our local shooting range; she has prior experience with bows and airguns, but no firearms. I had her double up with good earplugs plus earmuffs, and started her on a .22LR revolver shooting CCI Quiets, then moved up to full power .22LR, then my .223 Rock River AR with a 2-6x scope. She had a good time and shot well, as did her friend and friend's mom who came along. The CCI Quiets wouldn't even knock down the steel plates on the rimfire range, so she switched to the regular .22LR after only a couple cylinders of the Quiet. Rifle targets were paper at 50 yards.

I am saving full-power rifles for later. She really likes the antique Mosin-Nagant in the safe (Finn M39), but that one is rather intimidating for a beginning shooter I think, so we're sticking with .22's only for now.

All civilian repeating firearms have the ability to kill a lot of people if misused.

Almost none of them actually are so used. Most gun deaths are single-shot incidents, and most gun homicides involve small, concealable, lowish-capacity handguns, almost always illegally possessed at the time of use.

In the state of Massachusetts (subject of the OP), there were over 1300 murders 2007-2014; all rifles combined accounted for only 7 of them, per the FBI Uniform Crime Reports.

Weight is a big issue now, but that was less of an criterion before body armor was general-issue.

The main reason the 5.56mm M16 displaced the 7.62x51mm M14 back in the day was the M14's inability to fire effectively in full auto; the M14 could do impressive full-auto mag dumps, but for practical purposes was semiauto-only.

In that particular venue, the Orlando shooter could have shot 103 people with a full-sized pistol,

a multitude of CA- and NY-legal non-"assault-weapon" carbines like the Mini-14, or a comp'd semiauto shotgun and speedloaders (UK legal, BTW), or a pump-action rifle like the Remington 7615. If all the above were banned, he could have used a detachable-magazine lever-action. And as a state-licensed armed security guard, he could have gotten a gun even if guns for "civilians" were completely banned and magically confiscated.

Banning modern-looking rifles does not, in any way, address mass murder. You are talking about outlawing guns in the USA that are considered suitable for civilian use in Canada and most of Europe, for pete's sake. It is about sticking it to people you despise, not saving lives.

I'll reiterate: 1300+ murders in Massachusetts in 8 years, and all rifles put together (including AR-15's) accounted for exactly seven of those. That is fewer than one murder year in the entire state, on average. Nationwide, rifles are involved in less than 300 murders annually out of 12,000+. Bans on civilian rifles are about sticking it to people you despise, not saving lives.

Because they were spec'ing it for use in automatic weapons.

They traded off per-round lethality to get usable select-fire capability, which was and is considered vital in CQB by the military; 3-round burst on the M4 is now acknowledged as a Fulda-Gap aberration that is now being rectified (the M4A1 is back to full auto, based on experience in Iraq and Afghanistan).

To my knowledge, the U.S. military, and all other militaries on this planet, have not procured a single .223/5.56mm semiauto for general issue, ever; all military semiautos ever issued were at least 7mm that I'm aware of (the Garand was originally prototyped as a 7x51mm). I believe some private security contractors have occasionally used a few 5.56mm DMR's as gap-filler precision rifles, and it's possible some of those have occasionally seen use with SOCOM for weight reasons as well, but nothing for general issue and especially CQB.

Would you prefer that all our rifles were rechambered in 6.8mm SPC, which was developed by/for SOCOM to offset the .223's lack of power? Or perhaps that we all switched to AR-10's in .243 Winchester? A 58gr varmint bullet at 3,925 ft/sec would be a pretty effective defensive round, would it not?

No, the MA AG didn't touch function at all.

"The AG in MA has foregone all the minutia about appearance and boiled it down to function. If it acts like an assault weapon it IS an assault weapon."

No, the MA AG didn't touch function at all. A Ruger Mini-14 functions just like an AR-15, but isn't banned.

What she did was redefine the phrase "copy or duplicate" to mean "somewhat similar to" or "sharing a couple of parts with", contrary to 18 years of legal precedent. It had nothing to do with function, and everything to do with stretching the original list of guns that were banned for their looks.

It also didn't have anything to do with misuse. Out of 1,301 murders in Massachusetts 2007-2014, all rifles combined accounted for 7 (yes, seven). This move was about sticking it to Massachusetts residents she---and you---hold in contempt, not about violence reduction.

"An assault weapon is a semi auto or burst fire weapon with a high cyclic rate of fire and removable magazine."

Pray tell, what is the "cyclic rate of fire" of a non-automatic Title I civilian AR-15, and how does it differ from the "cyclic rate of fire" of a Glock 17 or a Beretta 92 or a Ruger Mini-14 or a 10/22?

And nowhere, to my knowledge, has any legal definition of "assault weapon" ever encompassed Title II automatic weapons, just Title I civilian non-automatics. "Assault rifle," on the other hand, referred strictly to Title II select-fire rifles of intermediate caliber.

For short range, how about a Garand scaled down for a less powerful cartridge.

Not an "assault weapon", either, not even in Massachusetts or California.

"All the rest is rabid defense of a piece of equipment that is designed to kill as quickly and efficiently as possible and has very little other function than satisfying a sub primal urge to dominate."

This is exactly how gun control activists shot themselves in the foot in the 1990s. The fact that the guns you're talking about are both the most popular rifles in U.S. homes, and simultaneously among the least misused of *all* weapons (even less than shotguns), belies that argument. You're making lurid statements about guns that are considered suitable for civilian use in Canada and most of Europe.

Some actual numbers, that might mean something if the cognitive dissonance weren't so strong:

Yes, out of 1300 murders, all rifles put together accounted for only seven of them.

6mm Remington "worked OK" (in your words) at U Texas. 9mm "worked OK" (again your words) at VT.

.223 Remington is the least powerful of all common centerfire rifle cartridges, and is average as far as velocity goes. Making it out to be a mega-super-ultra-death-cartridge that causes more serious wounds than .243/.270/.30-06 with comparable bullets is ludicrous. And since you want to outlaw semiauto 9mm carbines too, and 7.62x39mm, and .243/7mm-08/.308, and even .22LR, if they have protruding handgrips, it's all obfuscation. I suspect that there are exactly zero rifle cartridges you are OK with if they are chambered in a modern-looking semiauto with a detachable magazine.

FWIW, H.R.1022 a few years ago would have also banned the M1 Garand, as I recall, and the Feinstein AWB banned the Beretta BM59 (M1 Garand in a modern stock) by name. There are also a few hundred thousand Garands sitting in warehouses overseas that gun prohibitionists have blocked the importation of for civilian sale. So the gun control lobby isn't OK with those, either.

155gr .30-06 is still trading velocity for long range and penetration. Try 110gr.

Most full-power rifle loads are optimized for range and deep penetration. But step down to even a 110-grain bullet, and .30-06 is pushing it at 3400-3500 ft/sec, if you want to compare apples to apples. Remington also used to make a 55gr .30-06 load above 4000 ft/sec (Remington Accelerator), but I think they've been discontinued.

.30-06, .270, or .243 with fragile loads will produce far more severe wounds than a .223 with varmint rounds at equivalent range, because the full-power rounds stomp the lowish-powered .223 in terms of both velocity and energy.

Dihydrogen monoxide hand-waving...

"re the term 'assault rifle': howsoever it evolved, somewhen it has become a political term used today to mainly define rifles with a high muzzle velocity which often have an automatic rifle equivalent in the military {AR15 to M16, AK47, 74}"

Ummm, no. The prohibitionists use the term "assault weapon" to include moderately-high-velocity rounds like .223 Remington, lowish-velocity rifle rounds like 7.62x39mm (civilian AK-47 lookalikes, SKS), and even carbines that fire very-low-velocity rounds like 9mm, .45 ACP, or even .22LR.

The definining characteristic of an "assault weapon" is looks (mainly the shape and styling of the stock), not muzzle velocity or mode of operation. A semiauto .30-06 or a semiauto 9mm with a protruding handgrip is an "assault weapon", whereas a Ruger Mini-14 (semiauto .223 Remington) or Mini Thirty (semiauto 7.62x39mm) are ostensibly not.

"which can often be converted back from civilian semi-auto to full automatic by use of a conversion kit or sometimes a simple tool such as a file (not that many assault rifle owners do this, it would be counter productive, just that the capability exists). "

Baloney. Title 1 civilian "assault weapons" are as hard to convert to full auto as Title 1 civilian non-"assault weapons" like the Mini-14, the 10/22, etc.; any gun that can be converted to full auto by filing the sear is already a machinegun under Federal law, even if not actually converted.

A skilled machinist well equipped with blueprints, machine tools, and time can manufacture parts to convert any smallish-caliber civilian repeating rifle to full auto, but such parts are themselves machineguns under Federal law, and even attempting to create such parts will land you 10 years in Federal prison.
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