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Gender: Male
Hometown: Eastern North Carolina
Home country: United States
Current location: Eastern NC
Member since: Wed Dec 1, 2004, 04:09 PM
Number of posts: 12,148

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The military doesn't use civilian non-automatics like those, except in very specialized roles.

Those aren't automatic weapons in those pics, they are non-automatic civilian guns.

I'll also point out that rifles are the least misused of all weapons in the United States. Only 3% of all murders involve any kind of rifle whatsoever; 97% of murders are carried out with handguns, knives, clubs/hammers/bricks, fists/boots, or shotguns, in that order. Rifles rank last, behind all of those.

Most AR-15's are .22's, hence are underpowered for hunting anything but small game.

AR-10's are good hunting rifles (.308 Winchester, .243 Winchester, 7mm-08, etc.) but are pricey compared to a bolt-action. AR-15's are chambered for low-powered rounds based on the .223 Remington case length, and typically deliver only ~2 kJ or so of energy compared to ~4 kJ for a deer rifle. An AR-15 can kill a deer with careful bullet choice and very careful shot placement, but there isn't as much margin for error, so they are more often used for hunting prairie dogs and other smallish animals, up to coyote-sized.

The vast majority of gun owners are nonhunters, though, and AR-15's absolutely dominate centerfire target shooting in the United States, both competitive and recreational, and are the most popular rifles in U.S. homes. Gun ownership is mostly not about hunting.

And some people wonder why Dem and indie gun owners feel alienated from the party?

I have a B.A. and some graduate work in English and literary criticism (had to drop out of grad school when my son was born with 22q11.2 deletion syndrome), and I work as a technical writer in the aviation industry. I am also a casual competitive shooter (USPSA pistol and carbine), e.g. one of the uneducated morons you decry. My sister is an engineer and has a carry license, though she doesn't shoot competitively. Believe what you want, but it takes income to be a gun enthusiast, and a disproportionate number of us work in STEM fields.

I'd be interested in what data you think supports your generalization. Most polls don't show much difference between postgrads and "some college", and both groups are more likely to own guns than people who only have high school diplomas.

Sheer ignorance, or intentional deception. AR-15-type rifles weren't banned 1994-2004.

After the expiration of the non-ban, rifle crime homicide continued its long decrease, eventually reaching its lowest point in many decades a couple years ago. Rifles are consistently the least misused of all weapons in the United States.

This shows Everytown/Bloomberg's true colors, though. For a couple of years, they've been pretending they don't really want to ban popular guns, just make sure bad people are screened before purchase, etc. Now the mask comes back off.

Actually, hollowpoints are legal in NJ. THe rest of your post stands, though.

NJ certainly has a penchant for letting moralistic busybodies run other people's lives for them.

That isn't limited to NJ; when I was in Boston years ago for my son's second and third heart surgeries, I was shocked to find out that by law, most stores were required to close on Sunday.

Hollowpoints aren't banned in NJ (or to my knowledge, anywhere else).

NJ bans many of the most popular civilian guns in the nation and largely restricts carry licenses to the rich and politically connected or their staff, but even NJ doesn't ban hollowpoint or softpoint ammunition. Some jurisdictions may give you extra hassle if you stop for lunch or to go to the bathroom on the way to/from a shooting range if you have hollowpoint ammunition in the trunk of your car, and accidentally leaving some in the trunk after your trip could land you in prison, but it's completely legal to purchase, shoot at a range, hunt with, or load your home-defense gun with.

NJ law is fixated on the term "sportsmen" like it's 1950, but if you can get past that, here's the law:


Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
1. A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
2. A person going directly to a target range, and;
3. A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."

As with other ammunition and firearms, a sportsman would have to comply with the provisions of N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f and g when transporting hollow nose ammunition to a target range. The ammunition should be stored in a closed and fastened container or locked in the trunk of the motor vehicle in which it is being transported. The course of travel should be as direct as possible when going to and leaving from the target range with "only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." N.J.S.A 2C:39-6g.

If the sportsman's club member plans to hunt with a rifle and use hollow nose ammunition in a state where this is permitted, he must comply with the provisions of U.S.C.A. 926A and N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f) and (6)(g), which is consistent with the federal law, in transporting the firearm and ammunition. The firearm should be unloaded and neither the firearm nor the ammunition should be readily accessible from the passenger compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the firearm and the ammunition should be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or the console. 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.

In addition, the sportsman should have a valid hunting license in his possession from the state in which he plans to hunt and should be familiar with that state's gun laws. N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f)(2) requires a person hunting in this State to have a valid hunting license in his possession while traveling to or from the hunting area. Hunting with hollow nose ammunition is permitted in New Jersey. In the case of a New Jersey resident traveling to another state to hunt, it logically would follow that the hunting license would be from the state where the hunter is going. Although the federal statute does not require possession of a hunting license, it does require that the person transporting the firearm be going to a state where possession of that object is lawful. A valid hunting license from that state effectively supplies the proof.

These conditions for use and transport of hollow nose ammunition are consistent with the legislative intent to restrict the use of such ammunition to a limited number of people. It is well established that in construing a statute exceptions are to be "strictly but reasonably construed, consistent with the manifest reason and purpose of the law." Service Armament Co. v. Hyland, 70 N.J. 550, 558-559 (1976). The State Supreme Court has "characterized the Gun Control Law as 'highly purposed and conscientiously designed toward preventing criminal and other unfit elements from acquiring firearms while enabling the fit elements of society to obtain them with minimal burdens.'" Id. at 559.

iGun says they won't introduce it until mandates are off the table.

The New Jersey and California legislatures pretty much carpet-bombed the "smart-gun" industry into oblivion even before it got off the ground. We'll see if the startups can recover from that, and from the bad rap they got from shady pro-mandate, pro-remote-disabling companies that have previously gotten the headlines.

Uh, yes. I just checked. Jonathan Mossberg runs a small startup (iGun), not O.F. Mossberg.


The two companies are not affiliated in any way.

Jonathan Mossberg did indeed work for O.F. Mossberg & Sons from 1988 to 2000, and before that he was a VP for Uzi America, but iGun is a small startup unaffiliated with O.F. Mossberg. According to O.F. Mossberg & Sons, "Mr. Jonathan Mossberg is not an employee, representative, or affiliate of O. F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc., nor is iGun Technology Corp. an affiliate of O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc. The opinions and comments expressed by Jonathan Mossberg are his own, and do not reflect those of O. F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc."

I imagine they could market their product as a drop-in modification for existing shotguns, including Mossbergs, if they so chose (say as a drop-in trigger pack and buttstock); from the pics on the iGun website, it looks like their prototype trigger module is installed in an O.F. Mossberg semiautomatic. It would conceptually be an easy drop-in for an AR-15 as well, due to its modularity.

"Cop-killer bullets" and "hollowpoints" are opposite concepts.

So-called "cop-killer bullets" were very hard nonexpanding, pointed-tip handgun bullets designed for police, to penetrate sheet metal and glass without deforming; they were restricted out of fear that they might allow a handgun to penetrate soft body armor that would otherwise be rated to stop that caliber of handgun.

Hollowpoints are relatively soft, fragile bullets designed to open up like a parachute to make them penetrate *less*, thereby transferring more energy to the target and reducing the risk of overpenetration/ricochet. This coincidentally reduces their ability to penetrate soft body armor somewhat.
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