Some on this very site...

and many on the religious right, calling criticism of religion bigotry, hate speech, even racism.

One atheist in particular, Sam Harris, was recently called Islamophobic by some left leaning media for his harsh criticism of Islam. Probably because many people on the right attack Islam not substantively or rationally but more on the basis of race, culture, etc, so any criticism is assumed to be irrational. But, it's not, and this is a nice reminder.

It's also a reminder that religion is a choice. Some will argue it's not, even on here.

Correction: religion fails women...

Especially the Abrahamic ones. It fails them from the get go. Just read the books.

You're allowed to do whatever you want...

In my experience, for most that means hemming and hawing and intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance and just downright terrible logic, or complaining about being offended, or both.

This is not "forcing" beliefs on anyone. It's in a religion forum on a discussion board that people voluntarily come to.

From what I've seen, on open discussion forums with a sizable atheist contingent, believers don't post their beliefs much because they are impossible to defend and easily called out.

I was indoctrinated, like the vast majority of people were, into my faith. I reacted to stuff like this with anger and frustration because I was insecure in my beliefs, and I couldn't defend my beliefs on substantive grounds. My fear of what it might mean to not believe kept me able to use a lot of cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty to dismiss or ignore any substantive criticism of my beliefs.

That's a wide definition...

Why, you could even apply it to perfectly true statements in relevant discussion forums. Seems like a stupid attempt to imply the OP is assholish with a non-sensible post.

For a real definition of an asshole, I recommend Assholes: A Theory. Turns out the Abrahamic God fits the definition pretty well.

It's easy to spot...

The attacks are generally ad hom instead of substantive, because most of the substantive criticism applies to the ad him user's own religion as well.

Spot on quote nt

From believing a delusion?

From intellectual dishonesty, cognitive dissonance? From having to lie to others day in and day out? All possibilities, and I can think of much more (like having to defend certain parts of the Bible with terrible logic to friends and family who are condemned by it).

Best part is, after that initial moment of fear overcoming years of indoctrination and delusion, realizing that you need none of it to be happy.

Your OP is bullshit trolling

Some atheists have formed political interest groups, like this one, that goes beyond mere atheism and promotes the separation of church and state. It is a simple distinction, unless you like to use well-worn conservative talking points to attack atheists.

Pope Francis is a misogyinst bigot

These are undisputed facts. He is the leader of an institution that actively works to take away the rights of many of our fellow DUers and does nothing to stand in the way of these actions, but instead supports these actions with his condemnation of others.

When posts are made on GD praising him, try to think how it comes across to those who the Pope condemns. The Pope being considered marginally better than the previous Pope by presenting himself more humbly doesn't make much of a difference to those who are condemned in the same ignorant manner as before. It's hard to consider someone humble who condemns others based on the supposed special knowledge they have of God, no matter their other beliefs or actions.

Try to remember this when praising what you see as a better Pope. You may want to qualify any compliments with the facts that the Pope supports and promotes misogyny and bigotry towards homosexuals as a matter of course, and that this support has had and continues to have very real world consequences in the lives of many DUers.

Also consider posting it in the Catholic group. Posting praise of the Pope in GD will lead to hurting a lot of DUers who have been and continue to be on the receiving end of Pope Francis' beliefs and cause a lot of strife. Understand that it will cause some venom towards the Pope, and understand that the source of this venom is completely justified. If you think such venom towards the Pope will hurt Catholic DUers and want to avoid this, again, I recommend posting it to the Catholic forum to avoid this.

Consider what other religious or political leaders with the same views of women and homosexuals would receive praise on DU. Try to understand that for much of DU, such leaders deserve nothing but criticism and contempt, no matter if they are liberal on every other issue. Many people have died and suffered under oppression and continue to do so because of the beliefs Pope Francis continues to espouse. Those beliefs cannot be ignored for many, but are a glaring character flaw of anyone who holds them not capable of redemption merely through beliefs in other issues. Please be sensitive to that when praising him on DU. If you at least acknowledge these very important and prescient issues when complimenting the Pope on some other point, it can go a long way.

Why the Snowden Story Frustrates Me

There are several parts to the story that are tough for me:

My own cynicism

I don't like the NSA being able to search through any American's information, all under a very secret (and apparently not very stringent) form of due process. But I already figured they were doing just that. Nothing Snowden revealed was surprsing to me. I get the feeling it's that way with many Americans. And, in all honesty, I don't think one thing will change as a result of Snowden's leak in regards to the NSA or other surveillance programs. The American people don't care enough, and even if they did, our political system is set up in such a way that they have limited to no recourse, given that both parties are behind it. I suppose people could elect more liberal Democrats, but I've seen some pretty liberal Democratic Reps defending the NSA, so I'm not sure that is really a solution either.

My understanding is that once the technology is there, the government will utilize it. There is no stopping that. The best that can be done is heavy open regulation of such tools, but even if regulations called for open due process on the NSA, I would think they would have a secret due process for "really dangerous" situations etc., and it would be hard or even impossible to ever know for sure the government is playing above board at all times. Am I too cynical about it? Maybe. But that cynicism made me sort of go "meh" to the whole situation. I see others very passionate about this story that share the same values I do, and it bothers me that I just don't feel it.

I think Edward Snowden should be prosecuted and dislike the guy's tactics

I know that Snowden isn't really the story, but I'd think I would at least admire the guy who had exposed a spying program because of his love of privacy and think he shouldn't be prosecuted, but I don't.

Here is a supposed whistleblower, one that revealed important details to the US spying on its own citizens, and yet I actually think he should be prosecuted. The only thing I'd change is his possible jail sentance from decades to something like 5 years. It's because of the political cover and usefulness he has now played for repressive regimes. He says it was an act of conscious, but if that was the case he would've stayed in the US and accepted the consequences. If he did that, it would've focused the story on the NSA and any punishment would look very heavy handed.

Can I really blame a guy for not wanting to risk spending the rest of his life in jail for the right to privacy, something I hold dear? Well, it just seems that by running away, to Hong Kong of all places, he's undermined it being just about his conscious or even about his love of the right of privacy, but that's it's also about him and he doesn't mind giving other repressive regimes political cover and pwer. Hong Kong is no liberty paradise, and Moscow, where he is now... well it's a downgrade in a couple ways. I just don't see the point of relying on other repressive regimes, who will use you for their own purposes, to defend a right to privacy. It seems utterly stupid and hypocritical, not to mention harmful to the population of those regimes. It undermines the message, even though I know it's not about Snowden. So here I am, a supposed progressive, thinking Snowden should be prosectued and finding him utterly unhelpful to any fight for the right to privacy. A weird place to be I suppose.

Libertarian hypocrisy and naivete

Snowden seemed to have libertarian leanings, and a lot of the support for Snowden is from libertarians. I can't stand libertarianism. It is a terrible and naive ideology that indirectly supports the status quo and the powers that be. In some ways, Snowden is doing just this by giving political power and cover to repressive regimes as part of his flight.

A reminder of how conservative the Democratic Party is

I already know the Democrats are a moderately conservative party, relative to the world, but these sorts of episodes make it painfully clear, especially the support of the more conservative Republicans of the President and of this program. Which adds to my cynicism. Maybe it's just a feedback loop.