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why the hell are we letting Rethuglican disdain for Pelosi determine OUR leadership? hlthe2b Mar 2018 #1
Absolutely correct. And yet it is there. Stinky The Clown Mar 2018 #3
So many don't even bother to educate themselves as to what she HAS accomplished AND hlthe2b Mar 2018 #7
And they have no clue what a Speaker/Leader actually does EffieBlack Mar 2018 #17
I supported Nancy P. right up until she said: "The Impeachment of George W. Bush is OFF THE TABLE." vkkv Mar 2018 #84
"You" don't vote for the Speaker. There's a reason for that. ehrnst Mar 2018 #107
Your argument just keeps getting further and further from the subject and I'm guessing that is vkkv Mar 2018 #122
No, I'm reiterating the topic when you try to change what you said. ehrnst Mar 2018 #140
Maybe those of us that are Dems that would like to see someone new Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #4
Wow. You win this thread. Ageism AND sexism. Stinky The Clown Mar 2018 #6
Oh, blah Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #10
And since when has the Minority Leader had the responsibility to ehrnst Mar 2018 #81
Never said her job was to get out the vote. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #95
Actually you said this: ehrnst Mar 2018 #100
Yup. Notice nowhere in there do I say she is responsible for GOTV campaigns Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #104
Moving the goalposts again ehrnst Mar 2018 #135
Good grief. Atman Mar 2018 #270
No. ehrnst Mar 2018 #273
Geeeezzzuzzz.. vkkv Mar 2018 #125
Gawwwwwwwwdddd.... ehrnst Mar 2018 #136
If being turned on is a requirement then we get more Trump empty suits. Not good. bettyellen Mar 2018 #239
Or just wealthier Taylor Swifts. Can't force caring Hortensis Mar 2018 #250
What evidence do you have that she turns off the largest voting block EffieBlack Mar 2018 #248
:) Repubs, Russia and...these all bashing Pelosi after PA. Hortensis Mar 2018 #251
Thank you n/t emulatorloo Mar 2018 #296
Funny not funny how Pelosi needs to go because Republicans hate her for being too liberal EffieBlack Mar 2018 #299
Yeah I notice that too ... emulatorloo Mar 2018 #300
Okie dokey. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2018 #170
"Partly" Being the operative term EffieBlack Mar 2018 #177
True this. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #179
Funny how that works, isn't it? mcar Mar 2018 #184
Incorrect and irrelevant. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2018 #201
The Minority Leader is part of the team, but the responsibility for winning races EffieBlack Mar 2018 #206
Are you complaining about this stuff to me because you think that's what I think? Act_of_Reparation Mar 2018 #209
I'm not "complaining" to you about anything. I'm responding to your comments EffieBlack Mar 2018 #210
That's quite an accomplishment, as I didn't say anything about Pelosi, Lamb, or Ossof. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2018 #227
Where is that in the job description? ehrnst Mar 2018 #178
Do the words "formal and informal" confuse you? Act_of_Reparation Mar 2018 #193
Does the job of the DCCC confuse you? ehrnst Mar 2018 #202
No, I'm pretty well-educated. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2018 #207
Being well-educated myself ehrnst Mar 2018 #213
Sure you do. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2018 #230
Reality isn't always fun ehrnst Mar 2018 #244
Pelosi raised $47,600,000 for the DCCC 2017. lapucelle Mar 2018 #258
Money did not win the Lamb/ Saccone election. True Blue American Mar 2018 #262
No one Lamb won the PA special election because of money. N/T lapucelle Mar 2018 #266
In Spite Of True Blue American Mar 2018 #267
That's a difference without a distinction. N/T lapucelle Mar 2018 #269
Matter of choice of words! True Blue American Mar 2018 #274
Not in spite of. ehrnst Mar 2018 #315
I am aware of that. True Blue American Mar 2018 #317
Money does indeed help. If you don't have it, you can't win. ehrnst Mar 2018 #314
Who mentioned Pelosi True Blue American Mar 2018 #318
The person you retorted to with your claim "Money did not win the Lamb/ Saccone election." ehrnst Mar 2018 #321
Rant? True Blue American Mar 2018 #322
Yes, rant. ehrnst Mar 2018 #324
Sorry to disagree, but pazzyanne Mar 2018 #118
Well said! mcar Mar 2018 #183
All of this! EffieBlack Mar 2018 #203
The largest voting block in 2016 was those over 65, second highest was 45-64. George II Mar 2018 #199
That's the percentage of the age group that voted. Not the population of the age group in total. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #204
You're right, I missed that. But from your link and mine, older are roughly equal to younger.... George II Mar 2018 #208
Yeah, the number breakdowns are hard in both, agreed. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #211
I think its wrong that you double down on the ageism BoneyardDem Mar 2018 #246
"There is NO ONE in the Senate I trust more right now, than Pelosi..." Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #247
Is that how you read it? Figures BoneyardDem Mar 2018 #260
Pelosi isn't in the Senate. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #272
+1000 (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #77
I voted Leave... SidDithers Mar 2018 #94
Good to know that you support Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #96
That's very offensive. Should be removed or self-deleted. vkkv Mar 2018 #102
Life is kind of ageist. We do slow down as we become older. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #127
Only some of us never became any wiser, though. Hortensis Mar 2018 #252
Yep. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #316
case in point. hlthe2b Mar 2018 #8
Hard to retort to that stellar argumentation. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author MrsCoffee Mar 2018 #11
Please explain what specific value youth brings to the Speakers job EffieBlack Mar 2018 #18
First, I'm not saying put in an unqualified youth. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #23
The job of the speaker is not about getting votes out. drray23 Mar 2018 #32
I didn't say it was about getting votes out. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #34
you demonstrate azureblue Mar 2018 #86
+1 EffieBlack Mar 2018 #89
It is a party leadership role, yes? Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #92
"The face of the Party" ehrnst Mar 2018 #103
You don't think Paul Ryan is a face of the Republican Party? Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #108
I didn't say anything about Ryan. ehrnst Mar 2018 #126
Is Paul Ryan a face of the Republican Party? Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #131
A face. Not THE face EffieBlack Mar 2018 #142
Yes A face. DT and Pence more so. ehrnst Mar 2018 #146
Again with the strawmen... ehrnst Mar 2018 #155
Oh, WRONG argument, Cuth. :) Hortensis Mar 2018 #253
BINGO! EffieBlack Mar 2018 #255
Facts fall on deaf ears here. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #281
Indeed. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #105
Oh so it's now the job of the Minority Leader to be "the face of the party." ehrnst Mar 2018 #101
Since forever Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #111
Third actually. ehrnst Mar 2018 #129
2nd actually. Vice President and then Speaker of the House. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #132
Ah yes. The counting starts at number two. ehrnst Mar 2018 #156
Oh, so when you tried to correct me it wasn't about victories, right? Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #164
I did, didn't I? ehrnst Mar 2018 #167
Pelosi is not Speaker True Blue American Mar 2018 #319
We are talking generically about the role of Speaker Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #320
I know you do. True Blue American Mar 2018 #325
The Speaker is a party leadership role EffieBlack Mar 2018 #44
SUPERB post RandomAccess Mar 2018 #46
Thank you. No one seemed to be ragging on Gephart or O'Neill for not "appealing to the young'uns" ehrnst Mar 2018 #76
The speaker is SECOND in line for the Presidency Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #113
Don't misstate what I wrote. I said "primarily" not "just" EffieBlack Mar 2018 #138
This clarifies the issue so well mcar Mar 2018 #188
Yes, you did say "primarily." Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #191
Again with the strawmen... ehrnst Mar 2018 #157
That's not the job of Minority Leader ehrnst Mar 2018 #75
Before I start True Blue American Mar 2018 #139
You didn't answer my question EffieBlack Mar 2018 #153
Did I say that? True Blue American Mar 2018 #172
Question EffieBlack Mar 2018 #192
How could I possibly answer that question? True Blue American Mar 2018 #216
If you dont know enough about the Speakers job to explain why younger person EffieBlack Mar 2018 #218
I thought I explained in several posts True Blue American Mar 2018 #221
If the Speakers primary job was to come up with new ideas, I might agree with you. EffieBlack Mar 2018 #224
Pelosi has not been Speaker True Blue American Mar 2018 #263
My point applies to the Leader as well EffieBlack Mar 2018 #278
Pelosi is not the Speaker. Paul Ryan is. lapucelle Mar 2018 #259
Yeah, fuck experience and sheer raw talent RandomAccess Mar 2018 #45
Well, those are two different things. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #49
They may have talent, but they dont have experience they need to be a Speaker EffieBlack Mar 2018 #58
So who does have the experience, then? Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #205
You're right - I should have been more specific EffieBlack Mar 2018 #214
I can understand that, then. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #215
Bookers great, but he doesnt have the temperament or interest in being Senate Leader EffieBlack Mar 2018 #219
So Far True Blue American Mar 2018 #261
Yes, I know - you keep saying that we need someone else because new ideas EffieBlack Mar 2018 #277
Why don't you ask the colleagues that keep selecting her for the job? ehrnst Mar 2018 #66
+1 uponit7771 Mar 2018 #57
"New" isn't a rational reason for replacing effective, that's good for curtains not for people uponit7771 Mar 2018 #56
What is the precise and relevant definition of "new blood?" LanternWaste Mar 2018 #70
People with new ideas True Blue American Mar 2018 #147
Who is "doing nothing" in congress? ehrnst Mar 2018 #173
Good luck. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #185
Or "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" ehrnst Mar 2018 #187
Yep, I'm with you. Pelosi already had a go-around at Speaker. vkkv Mar 2018 #74
Then you need to convince those colleagues that keep voting her in ehrnst Mar 2018 #90
We aren't discussing her colleagues though, are we.. vkkv Mar 2018 #99
Um... they're the ones who voted her as Minority Leader, and Speaker ehrnst Mar 2018 #109
Um, we're talking about Pelosi as leader - not who elected for the position. vkkv Mar 2018 #115
Again... you keep changing the topic in order to be able to contradict ehrnst Mar 2018 #121
The 190 or so Democratic members of the House are the people who elected her their leader. George II Mar 2018 #194
Thank you! True Blue American Mar 2018 #151
Most people love their Grandmas pandr32 Mar 2018 #114
Except for straight white men under 30.... ehrnst Mar 2018 #168
I loved my Grandma True Blue American Mar 2018 #265
New is not necessarily better peggysue2 Mar 2018 #186
THANK you! EffieBlack Mar 2018 #14
Well, isn't the reverse true? zipplewrath Mar 2018 #21
So you're saying that Nancy Pelosi is the reason that ehrnst Mar 2018 #133
Actually that's why zipplewrath Mar 2018 #144
But we didn't lose Obama in 2012. ehrnst Mar 2018 #165
Don't know where to start zipplewrath Mar 2018 #180
No, she doesn't run the DCCC. Ray Ben Lujan does. He is the chairman. Not Nancy. ehrnst Mar 2018 #182
The speaker runs everything zipplewrath Mar 2018 #286
No, she doesn't run the DCCC. Ray Ben Lujan does. ehrnst Mar 2018 #288
She's the chairman of the board zipplewrath Mar 2018 #290
No, she's not on a "board" ehrnst Mar 2018 #291
Yes, she "over sees" zipplewrath Mar 2018 #301
Semantics is confusing "overseeing" with "running the day to day operations of" ehrnst Mar 2018 #306
Upon that we can agree zipplewrath Mar 2018 #309
I'm with you on that. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #310
Nancy Pelosi was Speaker of the House when Obama was elected President EffieBlack Mar 2018 #294
I know. All of the blame, and none of the credit. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #298
The Speaker of the House is not responsible for party building EffieBlack Mar 2018 #293
Yes, she is zipplewrath Mar 2018 #302
You seem to be having trouble grasping the difference between supporting an effort EffieBlack Mar 2018 #304
But she is not devoid of responsibility zipplewrath Mar 2018 #308
So, youve gone from She runs everything to shes not devoid of responsibility EffieBlack Mar 2018 #311
She does "run" the DCCC zipplewrath Mar 2018 #312
Ok. Whatever. EffieBlack Mar 2018 #313
Bingo. We didn't let them stop us from nominating Barack Obama. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #54
Obama was young and new.. Your point ? vkkv Mar 2018 #78
I supported Nancy P. right up until she said: "The Impeachment of George W. Bush is OFF THE TABLE." vkkv Mar 2018 #82
He was villified by the GOP. ehrnst Mar 2018 #83
Obama was young and new. A fresh face with NEW IDEAS vkkv Mar 2018 #85
Oh, so now it's her age. ehrnst Mar 2018 #91
What specifically about being young makes someone a more effective Speaker EffieBlack Mar 2018 #93
Then let's pretend, for your sake, that Nancy P. was only 49 but had already been Speaker while vkkv Mar 2018 #149
Since it's not the Speaker's job to win elections, probably yes EffieBlack Mar 2018 #169
Post removed Post removed Mar 2018 #175
Um... Obama got re-elected in 2012 not 2014 ehrnst Mar 2018 #181
I remember at the time many considered him way cooler (largely because he was younger) deurbano Mar 2018 #134
Obama came with less baggage and therefore a smaller, more difficult target for the opposition. vkkv Mar 2018 #141
Oh, so if it's a bad outcome, it's Nancy's fault for being at the helm, if it's a good outcome ehrnst Mar 2018 #161
Yeah - thats pretty much it in a nutshell EffieBlack Mar 2018 #295
I get whiplash sometimes in this topic ehrnst Mar 2018 #297
But I still think Clinton would have won that general election. deurbano Mar 2018 #196
The GOP vilification doesn't mean what you think it does. Obama would have likely gotten re-elected vkkv Mar 2018 #130
Nancy was "at the helm" in 2008 and 2012 when Obama won. ehrnst Mar 2018 #158
Obama won in 2008 & 2012. In 2012 Dems lost House. Nancy lost as Speaker in 2012 and Dems lost vkkv Mar 2018 #166
Most of the time the party that came into the WH loses greatly the following mid term. ehrnst Mar 2018 #190
Ive said this before, but I guess I can repeat it; GWC58 Mar 2018 #254
Sorry, but we have candidates who are winning because they disagree with you BeyondGeography Mar 2018 #2
Why do you think they are running against her? el_bryanto Mar 2018 #5
Because she is a recognizable brand with very high negatives BeyondGeography Mar 2018 #16
I'm not sure it's besides the point el_bryanto Mar 2018 #19
The argument is a number of our candidates pay a steep price when they're associated with her BeyondGeography Mar 2018 #22
Why do they pay that price though? el_bryanto Mar 2018 #27
What exactly is the "status quo" that offends you that she "defends?" ehrnst Mar 2018 #60
Not hard; our House members are blocked by seniority rules in a way that Republicans are not BeyondGeography Mar 2018 #88
If a talented person wanted that position, then they would be ehrnst Mar 2018 #116
Chairs should be term limited True Blue American Mar 2018 #264
It's not a "lifetime job" - it's a two year term. ehrnst Mar 2018 #282
The argument from Dems that would like a new leader is absolutely NOT that she is too liberal. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #31
Well I guess maybe i'm missing the thread here el_bryanto Mar 2018 #41
I may be reading too much into the OP, but I don't think so. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #42
So, trashing Pelosi will "gets us the House?" ehrnst Mar 2018 #59
We are not trashing Pelosi. True Blue American Mar 2018 #275
So, if Pelosi is "one of the worst" ehrnst Mar 2018 #279
Of course cannabis_flower Mar 2018 #62
This BannonsLiver Mar 2018 #64
One candidate. And Congressional Democrats choose their leader by majority vote. ehrnst Mar 2018 #55
The writing is on the wall BeyondGeography Mar 2018 #65
Yes, there are some wishful thinkers out there. ehrnst Mar 2018 #160
And running away from her would be malpractice in other places EffieBlack Mar 2018 #97
WHERE is this anti-Pelosi stuff coming from, Hortensis Mar 2018 #245
I have no idea, but it pops up in force every few weeks. EffieBlack Mar 2018 #256
Lol. I heard a couple wishful lies like that today also. Hortensis Mar 2018 #257
A-fricken-men! Proud Liberal Dem Mar 2018 #9
Bravo! EffieBlack Mar 2018 #13
Another question aside from villification Zambero Mar 2018 #15
Yours is a different argument - and not without some merit. Stinky The Clown Mar 2018 #20
Yes, voting for representatives is a form of term limits Zambero Mar 2018 #28
I am of the belief that "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #67
Nancy Pelosi has been under attack as long as I can remember. Greybnk48 Mar 2018 #24
K&R betsuni Mar 2018 #25
Let's leave Pelosi alone and let her do her job. PatrickforO Mar 2018 #26
I beg to differ but Pelosi is a lightening rod because is she far far far away from the beachbum bob Mar 2018 #29
Yup. Completely agree. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2018 #33
The RepubliCONS hate her, and I LOVE it! Greybnk48 Mar 2018 #38
So why do her colleagues keep voting her to the position? ehrnst Mar 2018 #71
Not true shenmue Mar 2018 #73
We do True Blue American Mar 2018 #162
A few years ago jes06c Mar 2018 #30
+1 leftstreet Mar 2018 #232
Well the russian bots & their US counter parts aka republicans, sure want to get rid of her. kydo Mar 2018 #35
republicans absolutely do not want to get rid of pelosi, ever...its there only way to nationalize beachbum bob Mar 2018 #37
Oh don't worry, they still pull George Soros out of storage to beat up all the time. kydo Mar 2018 #39
The HATE her because she makes them look stupid! Greybnk48 Mar 2018 #40
Small point.. trump villifies himself.. Cha Mar 2018 #36
Happy Birthday Notorious RGB! NCTraveler Mar 2018 #50
lol.. Happy Birthday to you, dear Cha Mar 2018 #52
Ironic how they attack women Captain_New_York Mar 2018 #43
Tell that to Al Franken. BannonsLiver Mar 2018 #61
They had something on Franken that could be deployed at this particular time. ehrnst Mar 2018 #198
K&R Big Time. Nt NCTraveler Mar 2018 #47
Well, we'll just keep replacing people until we find one to their liking and approval dalton99a Mar 2018 #48
Apparently the qualifications have changed from Dick Gephart and Steny Hoyer. ehrnst Mar 2018 #72
Excellent point debsy Mar 2018 #51
PSA: A lightning rod is a valuable protective feature. eppur_se_muova Mar 2018 #53
I agree. But... SpankMe Mar 2018 #63
A seasoned professional who is excellent at her job. Yeah, she's got to go. flibbitygiblets Mar 2018 #68
You, GO ON with your bad self EffieBlack Mar 2018 #225
The Rs will still attack Pelosi if she steps aside in her leadership role. stopbush Mar 2018 #69
Excellent point. dalton99a Mar 2018 #98
How about this instead, lets win the House in 2018, and then worry about who will be still_one Mar 2018 #79
Bingo! n/t billh58 Mar 2018 #117
Would that we could. Instead we get silly calls for Pelosi to . . . . step down? Resign? Hard Kari? Stinky The Clown Mar 2018 #148
Amen to that! True Blue American Mar 2018 #223
+1 ffr Mar 2018 #80
No! Remember Harry Reid? He was enemy number 1 before pelosi..... getagrip_already Mar 2018 #87
And Harry cost us the Senate. True Blue American Mar 2018 #174
no, democratic voters cost us the senate.... getagrip_already Mar 2018 #189
Why are you blaming Obama for ACA not being as strong as you wanted? EffieBlack Mar 2018 #220
100% Correct on that. True Blue American Mar 2018 #222
because obama was so feckless.... getagrip_already Mar 2018 #236
Well, I guess you would know how it SHOULD have been done... EffieBlack Mar 2018 #238
Harry cost us the Senate? mcar Mar 2018 #195
By being a weak Leader. True Blue American Mar 2018 #217
Because if Reid hadnt changed the rules to stop the GOP obstruction and get Obamas nominees thru EffieBlack Mar 2018 #229
Not the DCCC? ehrnst Mar 2018 #197
No, its Pelosis Job EffieBlack Mar 2018 #231
OOOOOhhhhhh. Now I see. ehrnst Mar 2018 #243
Amen to that. "It is what is done." pandr32 Mar 2018 #106
Trolls and bots billh58 Mar 2018 #110
+10000 Stinky The Clown Mar 2018 #152
Thank you! BadgerMom Mar 2018 #112
Yes I do Dorn Mar 2018 #119
For better or worse, she has a brand among Rethugs hueymahl Mar 2018 #120
So did Obama. ehrnst Mar 2018 #171
Pelosi isn't the problem. Democrats attacking her - Snap out of it and face towards the enemy! (n/t) FreepFryer Mar 2018 #123
Let people disagree on the matter. Sophia4 Mar 2018 #124
The GOP vilification doesn't mean what you think it does. Obama would have likely gotten re-elected vkkv Mar 2018 #128
So why do you think Obama got elected and re-elected with Nancy at the helm? (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #143
GWB zipplewrath Mar 2018 #150
GWB "got elected because he ran to the left of Hillary?" ehrnst Mar 2018 #284
Yeah, pronoun abuse zipplewrath Mar 2018 #285
So he talked goals while she talked strategy to get there. ehrnst Mar 2018 #287
Yes zipplewrath Mar 2018 #289
I also worried that his relative lack of experience with DC hardball ehrnst Mar 2018 #303
We tend to blame the nominee zipplewrath Mar 2018 #305
Wrong, just SO wrong. Nancy was not Speaker in 2012 (sorry). duh.. vkkv Mar 2018 #154
Um... I didn't say she was speaker in 2012. ehrnst Mar 2018 #283
By a male without baggage...absolutely Awsi Dooger Mar 2018 #137
Yes, and they despise people of color. Yet, Obama. (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #145
I honestly do not True Blue American Mar 2018 #159
Of course not! mcar Mar 2018 #163
It's Always Been the Misogyny dlk Mar 2018 #176
Quite a discussion here Stinky The Clown Mar 2018 #200
I guess it's not break time yet dalton99a Mar 2018 #212
Is someone the Democratic House Leader for life??? maxrandb Mar 2018 #226
No. Just as long as a majority of the Members continue to want her as their leader nt EffieBlack Mar 2018 #233
That would be my choice,too. True Blue American Mar 2018 #237
John Boner left when he was tired of dealing with party morons. He would still be there if . . . . Stinky The Clown Mar 2018 #240
Well, Nancy is older than Boehner True Blue American Mar 2018 #241
Oh, so she's a "loser" now. Stinky The Clown Mar 2018 #242
Republicans have always and will always disparage Democrats. Lint Head Mar 2018 #228
Remember FDR? He WELCOMED the hate of the MFing republicans!!!! workinclasszero Mar 2018 #234
But but then we might offend their base! EffieBlack Mar 2018 #235
IKR? Yes we can't have that now, can we? grrrrrr workinclasszero Mar 2018 #249
You miss the point. The point is that the party needs FRESH LEADERSHIP. LBM20 Mar 2018 #268
We need FRESH LETTUCE. betsuni Mar 2018 #271
Perfect response EffieBlack Mar 2018 #280
+++ brer cat Mar 2018 #292
YES!!! (nt) ehrnst Mar 2018 #307
The GOP obviously fears Pelosi, bigly. dchill Mar 2018 #276
Nancy Pelosi doesn't care if you hate her Gothmog Mar 2018 #323
She's effective. nocalflea Mar 2018 #326
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