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hlthe2b

(102,120 posts)
9. Really, read the Lawfare Blog's thorough review
Sun Jun 2, 2019, 06:02 PM
Jun 2019

Even Ken Starr did not agree with it.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/indicting-president-not-foreclosed-complex-history

5. The May 13, 1998, Memorandum to Independent Counsel Starr. This memorandum was written by professor Ronald Rotunda in response to an inquiry from Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr. Rotunda concluded that

In the circumstances of this case, President Clinton is subject to indictment and criminal prosecution, although it may be the case that he could not be imprisoned … until after he leaves that office.

The Rotunda memo is the least persuasive of the opinions in question. First, its status is unclear. It says that the question was posed by Starr, but it does not note whether Rotunda, who may have been a paid consultant, had any official governmental role. There is no indication that the opinion underwent any review by other officials.

The opinion seems to claim too much, in my view, by suggesting that a president could be not only indicted but actually put on trial while serving. (Rotunda does not even rule out imprisoning a president.) There is an informal and partisan flavor to the memo that makes it less serious than the other arguments put forth by the department.

Rotunda argues that the then-existing Independent Counsel Act contemplated that a president could be investigated and questioned, so therefore it must follow that he can be indicted. This is the obverse of the current argument made by some that since a president can’t be indicted, he can’t be questioned. Both positions are based on category mistake. No one has ever seriously suggested that a president can never be indicted. The only debate is whether any indictment of a president must be postponed until he is no longer in office. Since any president can indisputably be indicted when no longer in office, there is no permanent immunity that would obviate questioning of a president.

6. The 2000 OLC Memorandum. This opinion of the Office of Legal Counsel, signed by Assistant Attorney General Randolph Moss, is a thorough and thoughtful analysis of whether a president can be indicted and prosecuted while serving in office. It appears to have originally been drafted during the time of the Starr investigation of President Bill Clinton. The case against putting a president on trial is fully convincing to me. What is not so clear, however, is whether there is sound basis for withholding an indictment of a president even if any trial proceedings must await the end of his term. Like the Dixon memo, the 2000 opinion set out several obstacles to trying a president. None of those reasons, save one, applies to naming a president in an indictment.

The 2000 opinion gives so little thought to the possibility of indicting-and-postponing that it gives only one reason why such a course should be precluded: the idea that including the president in an indictment would cast a “cloud” over the presidency. The notion that reputational harm alone should preclude a normal part of the system of justice seems incompatible with the Supreme Court’s decision in Clinton v. Jones, in which the court set such a high bar for any presidential immunity from the normal process of litigation that not a single justice found that actually undergoing a civil trial was precluded.

Decided to look at the Constitution [View all] question everything Jun 2019 OP
Right, it is not in the Constitution 'as such,' and neither is the right to privacy. elleng Jun 2019 #1
Yeah. And if i were the subject of a DOJ investigation, Volaris Jun 2019 #14
Right, IF that life is mostly composed of criminal activitity. elleng Jun 2019 #15
Of course it doesn't. It relies on a 1973 rushed interpretation of "convenience" Read this hlthe2b Jun 2019 #2
Thanks, I will. question everything Jun 2019 #5
But the 1973 opinion was re-affirmed in 2000, at great length. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #7
Really, read the Lawfare Blog's thorough review hlthe2b Jun 2019 #9
I don't either, just saying that it's a good thing it hasn't gone to the Supreme Court The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #10
I added a link to lawfare blogs review. Worth a look. hlthe2b Jun 2019 #11
And more importantly, Igel Jun 2019 #13
That decision was made by the OLC I think MiniMe Jun 2019 #3
According to the OLC opinion, prosecuting a sitting president would violate The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #4
It is interesting that we, here, can dive into the issue question everything Jun 2019 #6
underpants Jun 2019 #8
Wanted to add that, of course, we know that the right to privacy and perhaps other issues question everything Jun 2019 #12
Like you, I was startled to hear Mueller say something so brazenly false. lagomorph777 Jun 2019 #17
You're good! StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #22
Thank you, and likewise! The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #23
Thanks! StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #24
Agreed. TwilightZone Jun 2019 #44
You are correct. The Constitution explicitly says you can indict any lawbreaker in the Government. lagomorph777 Jun 2019 #16
Maybe you can quote where it says: former9thward Jun 2019 #21
Neither does mine. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #25
Here you go: lagomorph777 Jun 2019 #28
That language is often cited as the basis for impeach first, indict second onenote Jun 2019 #40
Where does it say that? StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #26
Article 1 Section 3 Clause 7 lagomorph777 Jun 2019 #29
No - it doesn't say what you're claiming StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #32
No, the language is inclusive, not exclusive. lagomorph777 Jun 2019 #33
The entire paragraph refers to the aftermath of impeachment and conviction StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #34
The key words are "the party convicted...." TwilightZone Jun 2019 #45
President Clinton was forced to testify to a Grand Jury MasonDreams Jun 2019 #18
"...but the Party convicted...." ColesCountyDem Jun 2019 #19
Sequence of events is irrelevant; Article 1 Section 3 Clause 7 declares the two things independent. lagomorph777 Jun 2019 #30
The language is the very definition of "exclusive" StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #35
I meant exclusive/inclusive of liabilities. lagomorph777 Jun 2019 #39
Precisely. n/t ColesCountyDem Jun 2019 #42
It says no such thing. ColesCountyDem Jun 2019 #41
Exactly StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #43
I believe the view of the DOJ is that it would be unconstitutional for the department to indict Nitram Jun 2019 #20
The OLC opinions aren't stupid, despite the claims of some, but even so it seems to me The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2019 #27
The view of the DOJ is that it would be unconstitutional - because their boss Nixon said so in 1974. lagomorph777 Jun 2019 #31
The OLC letter was revised and updated by OLC at the very end of the Clinton Administration StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #36
Same situation, repeated. lagomorph777 Jun 2019 #37
He wasn't "in need" of protection two months before he left office StarfishSaver Jun 2019 #38
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