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Emrys

(7,232 posts)
147. About the "Oxford comma" ...
Thu Feb 23, 2023, 05:35 PM
Feb 2023
I'll just dredge this up from my scintillating DU journal (I have a little time on my hands tonight if someone wants to get into an argument about it - no takers when it was originally posted).

I edit books. The Oxford comma is much misunderstood.

Nowadays, rather than having strict house styles, most book publishers are flexible about matters of style, like the Oxford comma, because they want to minimize costs resulting from changing what an author's submitted for publication. Generally, if what an author's done is consistent, or thereabouts, we'll standardize it throughout a chapter or whole book.

The Oxford comma means something different in book publishing than it does in everyday chatter.

It means the comma after the penultimate item in a list is obligatory in all cases.

It's nothing to do with making sense of a sentence by fiddling with the punctuation, that comma's just always there. The Oxford University Press explains why it adopted this practice:

Given that the final comma is sometimes necessary to prevent ambiguity, it is logical to impose it uniformly, so as to obviate the need to pause and gauge each enumeration on the likelihood of its being misunderstood – especially since that likelihood is often more obvious to the reader than the writer.

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/256035


Translated from the somewhat flowery English: to save time spent by copy-editors deciding in every case whether there should be a comma after the penultimate item in a serial list, it's easier to just always use it, so that's what OUP imposes. And that's what a publisher means when they instruct us to standardize on using the Oxford comma or not.

This cuts out nuance, as in the examples people often give when arguing in the Oxford comma's favour, because that comma is not optional. But it saves time, and time is money.

So there you go: all those arguing for the Oxford comma have been doing it wrong all along. According to the Oxford University Press, anyway.
I'm sure it is self-confessed, not self confessed. Ptah Feb 2023 #1
.... CatWoman Feb 2023 #2
Merriam-Webster disagrees Ptah Feb 2023 #3
lol! You are correct. Self-help is also hypenated according to Oxford. "Don't patricia92243 Feb 2023 #5
Agreed True Dough Feb 2023 #32
She may want to check merrimiam-webster multigraincracker Feb 2023 #86
why? CatWoman Feb 2023 #91
I don't think you really want to multigraincracker Feb 2023 #100
i don't want to send someone to the gas chamber period CatWoman Feb 2023 #140
I like to see proper capitalization and punctuation. I lost count of the errors in this two-line HeartachesNhangovers Feb 2023 #150
Their is know they're there. Spell check says it's ok. Ptah Feb 2023 #7
so, I'm hyphen challenged. I'll own up to that CatWoman Feb 2023 #21
I picked up the double-hyphen from Emily Dickens and dashed away with it -- Hekate Feb 2023 #159
I heard the guy who invented autocorrect died central scrutinizer Feb 2023 #149
We'll done, we'll done! Hekate Feb 2023 #158
👍 Duppers Feb 2023 #19
Haha Sanity Claws Feb 2023 #37
Yep. The hyphen is correct. BannonsLiver Feb 2023 #130
Laziness and ignorance are two entirely different things. If a person is ignorant, they patricia92243 Feb 2023 #4
My Linguistics professor taught, as long as the message is conveyed, then the language was effective TheBlackAdder Feb 2023 #104
I make those very mistakes sometimes. Haggard Celine Feb 2023 #6
I am surprised how often PatSeg Feb 2023 #80
LOL malaise Feb 2023 #8
Its all good! sprinkleeninow Feb 2023 #9
I think "I wish I wasn't" should be "I wish I weren't," Croney Feb 2023 #10
you're correct CatWoman Feb 2023 #12
You are a Grammar Nazi. Sanity Claws Feb 2023 #39
I'd rather we didn't use that word at all, but I didn't know that OP stands for Croney Feb 2023 #46
How about notsee instead? Sanity Claws Feb 2023 #65
Haha! 👍 Croney Feb 2023 #93
Moist people don't get offended by a simple typo. HA No-Respect-In-TN Feb 2023 #11
I'm a dry person myself 😂 NT Tickle Feb 2023 #13
I could care less what people think of my comport. sprinkleeninow Feb 2023 #22
"alot" is not a word but I see it a lot. mobeau69 Feb 2023 #14
I think you would enjoy this alot. 😜 ShazzieB Feb 2023 #26
That's funny! mobeau69 Feb 2023 #50
+1 2naSalit Feb 2023 #33
For me, I really hate... Behind the Aegis Feb 2023 #15
Some misspellings of "jews" on RW sites are attempts to hide crap from search engines Bernardo de La Paz Feb 2023 #31
I hate the made-up word "prolly." What the hell is that? betsuni Feb 2023 #16
Some wisenheimer prolly concocted this assuming it was so clever. sprinkleeninow Feb 2023 #25
I've sparingly used it just to save space and a bit of typing, not to appear cutesy. My gripe is allegorical oracle Feb 2023 #107
Prolly???? bdamomma Feb 2023 #170
HEY GIRL Skittles Feb 2023 #17
I find the younger generation does that a lot CatWoman Feb 2023 #20
Prolly cause language is always evolving IronLionZion Feb 2023 #74
CAUSE is a noun and a verb Skittles Feb 2023 #79
English is a ridiculous language. Ask anyone who has learned it as a second language IronLionZion Feb 2023 #82
my mum was English, I know how there can be language differences Skittles Feb 2023 #143
However will we get thru this? Hekate Feb 2023 #162
Your post reminds me of something. llmart Feb 2023 #87
Makes you wonder about the subtractions IronLionZion Feb 2023 #92
Or is it short for "addsvertising"? llmart Feb 2023 #97
Only if we add something to the vertising IronLionZion Feb 2023 #99
Thanks for posting bdamomma Feb 2023 #172
The Spelling Mistakes Song Goonch Feb 2023 #18
I'm with CatWoman. Mr. Evil Feb 2023 #23
LOL!!!! CatWoman Feb 2023 #24
And to think I hated English class way way back in high school. Mr. Evil Feb 2023 #27
Reins, reigns, rains....especially the first two. BlackSkimmer Feb 2023 #70
As a speaker I use "shudda, cudda, wudda," but as a writer I never would, so I could not. CTyankee Feb 2023 #120
Yup... Mr. Evil Feb 2023 #123
If I were to use "shudda, cudda, wudda" I would put quotes around it. I noticed that Hillary Clinton CTyankee Feb 2023 #126
"concupiscent" Mr. Evil Feb 2023 #128
You are welcome. Isn't it delicious? CTyankee Feb 2023 #129
Quite! Mr. Evil Feb 2023 #131
think of just the word "scent" which is delicious too. CTyankee Feb 2023 #132
That'll work! Mr. Evil Feb 2023 #136
I had to look bdamomma Feb 2023 #173
Poor Hillary. Some journo was ragging on her, questioning her denial of something by saying ... Hekate Feb 2023 #164
Cat Woman is 2 words lame54 Feb 2023 #138
Yes but, Mr. Evil Feb 2023 #141
I important to remember that language, spelling and word usage evolves with society... Layzeebeaver Feb 2023 #28
It always amazes me when people compare themselves to Nazis as a personality trait tbh. WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2023 #29
I don't think it's a personality trait CatWoman Feb 2023 #30
Just a label in the Soup Nazi's case True Dough Feb 2023 #34
'ladle' panader0 Feb 2023 #55
Right, you are! True Dough Feb 2023 #57
If you're not a Nazi, why compare yourself to one? WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2023 #42
My list includes everything mentioned above!! 2naSalit Feb 2023 #35
Several people very close to me have difficulty spelling correctly. democrank Feb 2023 #36
I hope they keep writing, too! WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2023 #40
For me it is not only spelling KarenS Feb 2023 #38
Lack of punctuation drives me mad! Sanity Claws Feb 2023 #41
i agree Aussie105 Feb 2023 #48
My college grandson just sent me a text with the word PEICE tavernier Feb 2023 #43
Lol! The first time he did that he must have actively ignored ecstatic Feb 2023 #90
are you sure he wasn't higher than a kite, tavernier? Skittles Feb 2023 #151
I'm sure. tavernier Feb 2023 #154
I never made the "their," "they're," "there" error or the "your" "you're" error when I was a kid... NNadir Feb 2023 #44
I've definitely noticed post-40 that I subsitute short words for each other all the time meadowlander Feb 2023 #137
Two men walked to the shops but they went too far and had to turn around. Aussie105 Feb 2023 #45
We are very fortunate to have Spell Check here, I use it all the time just to check Rhiannon12866 Feb 2023 #47
Spellcheck is limited. Aussie105 Feb 2023 #51
I use alternative spelling. multigraincracker Feb 2023 #49
I do not agree. Aussie105 Feb 2023 #52
So, it is ok to prejudge others for one trait? multigraincracker Feb 2023 #66
I'm a bit of one too because I was always a visual speller, rather than a "rules" speller. hlthe2b Feb 2023 #53
I can be a grammar nerd . . . AverageOldGuy Feb 2023 #54
Cute serial comma story... I'll bet you love correcting headlines. Commas do matter. hlthe2b Feb 2023 #63
About the "Oxford comma" ... Emrys Feb 2023 #147
Herr Oberst, see that you include priviledge vs. privilege bucolic_frolic Feb 2023 #56
Using colloquialisms is different than the common misused words the OP emphasizes. Prairie_Seagull Feb 2023 #58
Don't loose any sleep over it Martin Eden Feb 2023 #59
Lose and loose . . . Aussie105 Feb 2023 #62
Well, I'll try to be more mindful Montauk6 Feb 2023 #60
Ooo, I LIKE some of those! Maeve Feb 2023 #68
I think we all read through any misspelled words pretty easily? pwb Feb 2023 #61
Yepp, Prairie_Seagull Feb 2023 #127
I'll take misspelling over misinformation. A HOLE lot easier to correct. czarjak Feb 2023 #64
People writing "loose" instead of "lose" drive me crazy. Martin68 Feb 2023 #67
Language changes, but I agree with your basic point Maeve Feb 2023 #69
My mother was an English teacher multigraincracker Feb 2023 #115
There are people who can't spell correctly and people who won't Maeve Feb 2023 #122
My first husband was dyslexic. We went through college together, and as a friend I did some editing Hekate Feb 2023 #157
Thom Hartman wrote some great books on multigraincracker Feb 2023 #161
When I went back to grad school, Hartmann's book on ADHD subtitled "A Hunter in a Farmer's World" Hekate Feb 2023 #163
I'm ADD. multigraincracker Feb 2023 #167
I used to sit in the front row because of myopia. High school teachers taught us note-taking, so by Hekate Feb 2023 #168
CatWoman PCIntern Feb 2023 #71
that damn autocorrect is the devil's spawn CatWoman Feb 2023 #95
Someone that depends on autocorrect is the devil's pawn. Ptah Feb 2023 #101
Alt-Write IronLionZion Feb 2023 #72
Ooo, that's a good one. Also, really spooky. Hekate Feb 2023 #165
Well, For All Intensive Purposes, I'd Like To Nip Thoses Errors In The Butt... GGoss Feb 2023 #73
My hubby used to say intensive purposes. tavernier Feb 2023 #112
I have to confess that I BlueMTexpat Feb 2023 #75
Also interestingly, BlueMTexpat Feb 2023 #77
I grew up moving back and forth between America and England Skittles Feb 2023 #81
Is that related somehow to "set foot on"? CTyankee Feb 2023 #121
I was talking about Nov 5 celebrations Skittles Feb 2023 #142
I hope you make exceptions for the DU elders. I know I sometimes spew a thought and when I Vinca Feb 2023 #76
I relate. For me, it's more grammar. And though I don't correct people, when I read it Scrivener7 Feb 2023 #78
I hate that, too! ShazzieB Feb 2023 #113
"Does that car belong to your family? Is the car your guys's?" Scrivener7 Feb 2023 #117
If I started obsessing about my spelling or grammar I'd never get anything written. hunter Feb 2023 #83
Achtung baby! I can dig some spelling Naziism, punctuation, too. jaxexpat Feb 2023 #84
One that irks me a lot Cairycat Feb 2023 #85
Some mistakes are due to autocorrect or "speech to text" ecstatic Feb 2023 #88
Just wait until Otto Correct joins the spelling Nazis IronLionZion Feb 2023 #94
Lol! nt ecstatic Feb 2023 #98
Funny bdamomma Feb 2023 #174
Me too. Kingofalldems Feb 2023 #89
My favorite story about a student's misspelling... llmart Feb 2023 #96
You misspelled Cat Woman. It's two words. Emile Feb 2023 #102
I have problems because English is my second language. friend of a friend Feb 2023 #103
Oy, vey! thatcrowwoman Feb 2023 #105
I hope this post is just for fun and not actually hateful... Scrivener7 Feb 2023 #118
Not fun at all and not hate either thatcrowwoman Feb 2023 #135
Referring to someone as a "spelling nazi" or a "grammar nazi" is an on-line thing meaning... Hekate Feb 2023 #156
It surprised me, too, Hecate. thatcrowwoman Feb 2023 #177
I think you mean Santos, not Soros. Mosby Feb 2023 #160
Thank you, Mosby. Corrected now. nt thatcrowwoman Feb 2023 #171
Knot going to tow the line just because of what your saying!!!! hatrack Feb 2023 #106
Wut? LuckyCharms Feb 2023 #108
This message was self-deleted by its author Niagara Feb 2023 #109
writing is like painting or music bigtree Feb 2023 #110
U R who U R dweller Feb 2023 #111
Cute bdamomma Feb 2023 #175
I, too, fix them when I see them, but I've discovered that switching... LAS14 Feb 2023 #114
The only petty thing that really sticks in my craw is pronouncing T in the word 'often.' Torchlight Feb 2023 #116
Cute post Meowmee Feb 2023 #119
im the exact opposite moonshinegnomie Feb 2023 #124
This message was self-deleted by its author debm55 Feb 2023 #153
You would abuse me if you could. Chainfire Feb 2023 #125
There was a time on DU Lars39 Feb 2023 #133
I mostly ForgedCrank Feb 2023 #134
I swear to god, if I see one more person type "balling" instead of "bawling" Wingus Dingus Feb 2023 #139
I SEEN is another one Skittles Feb 2023 #144
I'm a terrible speller. I inherited it from my mother. littlemissmartypants Feb 2023 #145
Try doing it for a living. Emrys Feb 2023 #146
heavy comma usage Skittles Feb 2023 #152
What's with people who spell loose, lose? Emile Feb 2023 #148
I try not to be. I had to turn off the automated spell-check on my phone because it introduced... Hekate Feb 2023 #155
I worked as a proofreader and editor for years GenThePerservering Feb 2023 #166
If I'm typing on my cellphone I sometimes can't be bothered with apostrophes IcyPeas Feb 2023 #169
I think bdamomma Feb 2023 #176
loose when one means lose question everything Feb 2023 #178
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