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In reply to the discussion: Justice for JFK [View all]stopbush
(24,396 posts)462. Blah, blah, blah. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
What happened to the Presidential Limousine that carried President Kennedy on the day he was assassinated?
The limousine that carried the President was searched for evidence after the assassination. It was then cleaned and continued to be used for certain functions. The windshield of the limousine was removed as evidence by the FBI and the Secret Service since it had been hit by the third bullet. The windshield was designated Commission Exhibit (CE) 350 of the Warren Commission and as a Warren Commission Exhibit will remain in the custody of the National Archives and Records Administration. The limousine is currently at the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn Michigan. - from the National Archive FAQ page, "JFK Assassination Record"
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/faqs.html
Robert Frazier (a firearms identification expert working for the FBI who examined much of the ballistics and firearms evidence connected with the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Dallas policeman J.D. Tippit.) examined the limo after the shooting and testified before the Warren Commission. He described his search of the limousine for bullet fragments late on the night of the shooting. Two bullet fragments had already been retrieved from the front seat by the Secret Service. Per Frazier:
When asked if he felt his search was indeed a thorough examination of all aspects of the interior of the automobile, Frazier said:
Frazier's extensive testimony as given before the WC may be found here:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/html/WC_Vol5_0038b.htm
In David Fisher's book Hard Evidence, Frazier expanded on the WC testimony, providing this rather gross account:
How about that...and all easily discovered in the WCR.
You wrote: Cmdr. James Humes, JFK's lead autopsy doctor. Humes signed an affidavit that he had burned "certain preliminary draft notes" from the autopsy, and later admitted that this included the first draft of the autopsy report.
But as Humes explained to Jeremy Gunn of the Assassination Records Review Board:
.
Them's the FACTS, and they don't seem to comport with the fantasies you're peddling.
The limousine that carried the President was searched for evidence after the assassination. It was then cleaned and continued to be used for certain functions. The windshield of the limousine was removed as evidence by the FBI and the Secret Service since it had been hit by the third bullet. The windshield was designated Commission Exhibit (CE) 350 of the Warren Commission and as a Warren Commission Exhibit will remain in the custody of the National Archives and Records Administration. The limousine is currently at the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn Michigan. - from the National Archive FAQ page, "JFK Assassination Record"
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/faqs.html
Robert Frazier (a firearms identification expert working for the FBI who examined much of the ballistics and firearms evidence connected with the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Dallas policeman J.D. Tippit.) examined the limo after the shooting and testified before the Warren Commission. He described his search of the limousine for bullet fragments late on the night of the shooting. Two bullet fragments had already been retrieved from the front seat by the Secret Service. Per Frazier:
"There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car. I examined the car to determine whether or not there were any bullet fragments present in it, embedded in the upholstery of the back of the front seat, or whether there were any impact areas which indicated that bullets or bullet fragments struck the inside of the car."
When asked if he felt his search was indeed a thorough examination of all aspects of the interior of the automobile, Frazier said:
"Yes, sir; for our purpose. However, we did not tear out all of the rugs on the floor, for instance. We examined the rugs carefully for holes, for bullet furrows, for fragments. We examined the nap of the rug, in the actual nap of the rug, for fragments and bullet holes. We pulled the rug back as far as we could turn it back and even tore the glue or adhesive material loose around the cracks at the edges of the rug so we could observe the cracks to see whether they had been enlarged, and we examined all of the upholstery covering, on the back of the front seat, on the doors, and in the rear seat compartment, the jump seats, the actual rear seat, the back of the rear seat, and we examined the front seat in a similar manner, and we found no bullet holes or other bullet impact areas, other than the one on the inside of the windshield and the dent inside the windshield chrome."
Frazier's extensive testimony as given before the WC may be found here:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/html/WC_Vol5_0038b.htm
In David Fisher's book Hard Evidence, Frazier expanded on the WC testimony, providing this rather gross account:
"The President's limousine arrived back in Washington about six o'clock. Around one o'clock the next morning, Cort (Cortland Cunningham) and I started sifting through the blood looking for lead fragments. It was tough; it was very tough...We'd just reach down into the clots of blood and scoop it up in our hands and let it dribble through. Whenever we felt something gritty, we'd clean it up and if it was lead, we'd save it in a pillbox. We didn't really recover a lot of lead."
How about that...and all easily discovered in the WCR.
You wrote: Cmdr. James Humes, JFK's lead autopsy doctor. Humes signed an affidavit that he had burned "certain preliminary draft notes" from the autopsy, and later admitted that this included the first draft of the autopsy report.
But as Humes explained to Jeremy Gunn of the Assassination Records Review Board:
.
In Greenfield Village, there is an old Illinois courthouse where Lincoln used to preside when he was circuit-riding judge. And in that courthouse was a chair that was alleged to be the chair in which Lincoln sat when he was assassinated in Ford's Theater. And the docent, in describing this chair, proudly spoke that here on the back of the chair is the stain of the President's blood. The bullet went through his head. I thought this was the most macabre thing I ever saw in my life. It just made a terrible impression on me.
And when I noticed that these bloodstains were on this document that I had prepared, I said nobody's going to ever get these documents. I'm not going to keep them, and nobody else is ever going to get them.
So I copied them -- and you probably have a copy in my longhand of what I wrote. It's made from the original. And I then burned the original notes in the fireplace of my family room to prevent them from ever falling into the hands of what I consider inappropriate people. And there's been a lot of flak about this, that they're all part of a big conspiracy that I did this because I was involved in I don't know what I was involved [sic]. Ludicrous. That is what I did.
Them's the FACTS, and they don't seem to comport with the fantasies you're peddling.
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'Breach of Trust' by Gerald D. McKnight spells out how the Warren Commission failed the nation.
Octafish
Nov 2012
#243
The history of the US is a history of conspiracy, as history in general is. "Conspiracy
HiPointDem
Nov 2012
#165
Some wit I saw or read long ago said, "You can call me a 'conspiracy theorist' if I
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#181
He had good reason to feel that way, Oswald was already shouting to anyone who would listen that he
arthritisR_US
Nov 2012
#55
I have that book and so far I think it is one of the best I have read on the assassination.
arthritisR_US
Nov 2012
#497
history is full of heads of state & other political actors who were killed by conspirators,
HiPointDem
Nov 2012
#168
Oswald called himself a 'patsy'. What do you think Oswald meant by that term? To me,
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#45
Pair that with the suspicious tracks they laid down of Oswald's "supposed" trip to Mexico prior to
arthritisR_US
Nov 2012
#58
I count myself agnostic on this issue. I know that Vincent Bugliosi, of
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#134
My beef with Bugliosi is that he repeated his Helter-Skelter schtick with JFK
Democracyinkind
Nov 2012
#163
I've written about "convergence of evidence" in other posts in this thread.
Democracyinkind
Nov 2012
#203
I am aware of this but also am (dimly) aware that the supposed Dictabelt evidence
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#279
That's an interesting interpretation for sure. I think for me it's the
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#281
Read up on Jack Ruby. It might give you more perspective on his killing Oswald.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#375
Thanks again for your pretty awesome analysis and interpretation. Definitely gives
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#396
One very interesting thing about Oswald that never gets mentioned: he was a fan of JFK.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#417
because congressment are unimpeachable, right? they never lie. not taking a
HiPointDem
Nov 2012
#173
I'm disappointed in this post from you, as most of your posts have some logic to them.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#263
One of the tragic facts of the JFK shooting is that for all intents and purposes
stopbush
Nov 2012
#374
Why do you continue to dispute the FACT that attaining the rank of Sharpshooter means something?
stopbush
Nov 2012
#383
You talk as if there are no facts in this case. As if there is no evidence, only speculation.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#418
So, your deciding what is true can be influenced by whether the messenger plays nice with you.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#427
Most people believe there was more than just one gunman. Oswald may have been part of it.
Michigan Alum
Nov 2012
#378
The philosopher of science Karl Popper argued that for a hypothesis to be valid, there
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#140
Luckily, Popper didn't speak the last word as far as the Philosophy of Science is concerned.
Democracyinkind
Nov 2012
#167
I can see I still need some self-education and I definitely appreciate your
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#175
To me, it all comes back to one sentence Oswald uttered while in custody. "I'm a
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#194
On the surface, I agree with that (I think), but it still bugs the shit
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#206
In addition to the 1979 House Committee, the 1972 House Majority Leader expressed an interest
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#311
And have you been to Dealey Plaza to examine the evidence for your own evaluation?
lonestarnot
Nov 2012
#274
Have my doubts that any info will ever be released from official sources
Cirque du So-What
Nov 2012
#2
Deathbed confession? He was interviewed by the press and denied any involvement.
edbermac
Nov 2012
#21
Yes. Because murderers ALWAYS confess to their crimes as soon as they're apprehended.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#27
Wrong. Jack Ruby died on January 3, 1967, 3 years and 3 months after killing Oswald.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#382
And all of those assassins walked up to their victim and killed him in front of
stopbush
Nov 2012
#204
The poster didn't accuse anyone. I'd like to ask Poppy Bush what he was doing in Dallas on Nov. 22?
Octafish
Nov 2012
#259
Don't you love how the CTists toss out these "facts" like they're actually, er, facts?
stopbush
Nov 2012
#125
i believe there's been a couple of deathbed confessions but they have the same
HiPointDem
Nov 2012
#202
I'm still in the fight, I've got your back Sir. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. I'm in GB
bobthedrummer
Nov 2012
#5
Thank you MrMickeysMom-we're waiting for the pies to finish and then we're off, this thread is an
bobthedrummer
Nov 2012
#89
There are many people still unaccountable, and the blowback between the FBI and CIA continues.
bobthedrummer
Nov 2012
#10
Who said it can't happen here? It happened with Lincoln, whose assassination WAS the
stopbush
Nov 2012
#17
A Sinclair Lewis reference, by the way I hang out with molecular epidemiologists and other PhDs-have
bobthedrummer
Nov 2012
#18
If you keep repeating those letters 'CTists' it might actually stick to people
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#83
"Someone has to speak up for reason and sanity". Are you series? So you self-appointed yourself
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#357
I have the gift of Faith in Jesus Christ as do many others-you don't "own" my perception space about
bobthedrummer
Nov 2012
#32
Really? Please tell me how the single bullet theory (ie: magic bullet) defies science.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#41
So cleaning the limo doesn't constitute "certainty" that evidence was destroyed?
tonybgood
Nov 2012
#291
Yes, the answer is "no"!!! No evidence of any kind was taken from the limo before it was cleaned.
tonybgood
Nov 2012
#439
"It would not be a very difficult job to shoot the president of the United States."
stopbush
Nov 2012
#11
Milteer has everything to do with it. FBI recorded him outline the plot with a high-powered rifle...
Octafish
Nov 2012
#52
Amanda was asserting the bubble top was bullet proof. It wasn't. That much is a fact.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#59
Thank you for this! I have always heard that the WC was window-dressing, but have not seen an
patrice
Nov 2012
#401
Kryten's amphibious tank assault on the V.R. Jane Austen novel lake-side garden party
Mc Mike
Nov 2012
#405
Most people polled have never even read the WCR. 90% of Americans believed Saddam had WMDs.
stopbush
Nov 2012
#102
Did you read the report or not? You asked where I got it. Since I actually did
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#152
You are talking about logic. Let's review. You questioned if I had read the WCR.
sabrina 1
Nov 2012
#159
'You claimed everything in that report was accurate and should be taken at face value. "
zappaman
Nov 2012
#162
Technical note\correcton: many thought that Nixon conspired with the South Veitnamese to
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#442
Are you asking that this thread be locked? I dont think threads are moved in DU3.
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#328
I dig what you're saying. To me, the assassination of JFK functions
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#60
You certainly woke up the conspiracy deniers. You should be more sensitive.
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#54
No I dont. But I do believe that we shouldnt try to run DU members off with ridicule. nm
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#295
In 2011, a Californian company, Ntrepid, was awarded a $2.76 million contract under the auspices of
Dark n Stormy Knight
Nov 2012
#494
I really dont mind them having doubts about any theories. Doubting isnt bad.
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#138
Octafish, there's no reasoning with the crowd who continues to believe Oswald was....
OldDem2012
Nov 2012
#68
Best JFK Assassination conspiracy theory I've ever read (and it is in
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#88
You wrote that the magic bullet didn't go through bone, yet now claim it did?
Octafish
Nov 2012
#438
Your own words, stopbush: ''The bullet did not pass through bone. Tissue, yes. Bone, no.''
Octafish
Nov 2012
#445
Are you dense? Honestly, you don't see the difference between a bullet passing through bone
stopbush
Nov 2012
#449
That's awesome! That makes the bullet even more magic than I thought previously!
hootinholler
Nov 2012
#395
I was a little boy of 4 when JFK was assassinated, so my understanding such as it is comes from my
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#458
Who decides what the "proper room" is? You? Besides the thread will get locked. Is that your goal?
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#302
I fully understand why "forums" are created. But I dont understand your fervor in making sure
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#320
I dont believe in DU3, threads can be moved. If a host thinks it is off subject they can only lock.
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#324
Your response does, obviously. I was hoping you would write about Justice for JFK.
Octafish
Nov 2012
#333
Remember what he said about secret societies, and esoteric conversations
orpupilofnature57
Nov 2012
#155
When you subtract out the occasional vitriol, this has to be one of the best
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#179
Yes...amazing that this still remains up on Youtube.....CIA slacking on this one.
RagAss
Nov 2012
#487
Highly recommended: "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters,"
Peace Patriot
Nov 2012
#239
"Links to Chomsky"? - I've been following this thread closely since its inception (and
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#394
Hey there. Welcome to DU. This thread has become something of a Hydra-headed
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#432
That is fascinating, seriously. Especially his views on Castro at that time. Very surprising.
sabrina 1
Dec 2012
#507
The drive for a 'First Strike Capability' has been a theme for the MIC throughout the Cold War
LongTomH
Nov 2012
#351
Because StopBush kept asking us to read the Warren Commission Report, I decided
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#240
I think the salient worss in you post are "I've only read the Forward and Chapter One."
stopbush
Nov 2012
#267
Fair enough. Another thought that occurred to me after I posted is that the WCR was
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#277
Count me logo-centric :) I just placed a hold on the print edition of the book
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#289
Thanks for the comment at first I thought that was for real but after reading the article,
craigmatic
Nov 2012
#304
So, you're yet another poster trying to tell everyone who has questions about the.....
OldDem2012
Nov 2012
#325
I think it is dirty pool for you to attack stopbush's bona fides. He didn't order
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#293
The WCR is a massive work of fiction. Try reading the documentation on which it is....
OldDem2012
Nov 2012
#322
Once again Sabrina, you put it very well. One would expect that "politically liberal people" wouldnt
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#327
Maybe my skin is thicker than I give myself credit for, but I don't feel like he was attacking me
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#341
Many thanks for the links on McCloy and Warren. I hope to review them shortly. I took a look
coalition_unwilling
Nov 2012
#412
Agreed. And, of course, there's no need to name the "post-er who keeps insisting that people stop
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#315
To protect the 'innocent', I could type it in without vowels, but too fatigued. Nt.
Mc Mike
Nov 2012
#407
I agree about the demand of satisfying the only reference we should read...
MrMickeysMom
Nov 2012
#455
We'll never know. The lone gunman theory is just as likely as any other when you look at other
craigmatic
Nov 2012
#300
We all have our set levels of reality that we accept (our reality bubbles) .
rhett o rick
Nov 2012
#329
Thank you for sharing results of your hard work on this. We all have benefited so greatly. n/t
Judi Lynn
Nov 2012
#423
The President of the United States had his head blown apart in public
DisgustipatedinCA
Nov 2012
#437
Where in this long thread is there any evidence presented that contradicts Oswald as the assassin?
cpwm17
Nov 2012
#467
The conclusions from the House Select Committee's report from 1979 appear to be invalid
cpwm17
Nov 2012
#488
Excellent point: CIA sent their man from when Oswald was in New Orleans to help steer things right.
Octafish
Nov 2012
#496