Still missing the point... (Reply #33)

In the discussion thread: Stop Telling Women How to Not Get Raped [View all]

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:22 PM

redqueen (112,617 posts)

33. Still missing the point...

the insistence is that only horrible criminals who go into the situation intending to rape someone commit rapes.

When the truth is that partners of all kinds rape, either because they're socialized not to pay close attention to cues, to think of their wants as paramount, to think that 'no' means 'yes', etc.

The tired advice that's been directed at women is very old. We know it all. So stop repeating it, and let's start aiming our advice at boys and men, too.

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246 replies	Author	Time	Post
Stop Telling Women How to Not Get Raped [View all]	redqueen	Jan 2012	OP
But if men stopped raping then women wouldn't get so many lectures and blame-the-victim anymore.	Quantess	Jan 2012	#1
Indeed. I'm all for teaching basic safety and awareness, which are good things for everyone to learn	arcane1	Jan 2012	#2
How so? I see the OP as promoting a way to start addressing the cause --	Remember Me	Jan 2012	#52
I was generalizing, not speaking specifically to the OP n/t	arcane1	Jan 2012	#119
Yes. The subject line is simply misleading.	Orsino	Jan 2012	#163
Can we do both?	Hugabear	Jan 2012	#3
Yeah, when people don't even know what rape is,	redqueen	Jan 2012	#7
can you point me somewhere reputable and non-anectdotal where the existence of date-rape is...	ret5hd	Jan 2012	#28
Expounded as in explained?	redqueen	Jan 2012	#29
well, just point me towards your best source, the on most likely to make me say...	ret5hd	Jan 2012	#34
Perhaps you could start here ...	etherealtruth	Jan 2012	#35
1 & 2 are completely anecdotal...a crackpot ga rep and a govt justice employee do not constitute...	ret5hd	Jan 2012	#40
Susan Estrich is a respected law professor	etherealtruth	Jan 2012	#42
this article does not speak to denial of date rape, but to minimalizing the crime.	ret5hd	Jan 2012	#43
Excuse me ...?	etherealtruth	Jan 2012	#44
"real and prevalent" to you...	redqueen	Jan 2012	#36
oops, replied to #35 instead of you. please forgive.	ret5hd	Jan 2012	#41
Not that the FBI is particularly "reputable," but they didn't admit there was such a thing	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#168
I was almost raped in college, and didn't realize it	Sarah Ibarruri	Jan 2012	#61
That is very common.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#88
everything in our society directs, leads, conditions to this and we act like	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#92
That happened to me a few times	laundry_queen	Jan 2012	#120
It's so weird isn't it? For the longest time I felt that it was part of my role in life to	Sarah Ibarruri	Jan 2012	#136
I agree. There is always value to teaching people how to avoid being victimized.	yellowcanine	Jan 2012	#11
Unfortunately, the blame DOES get put on the women by these "guides"	Scootaloo	Jan 2012	#13
Agreed. We can approach the problem from more than one angle. nt.	Hosnon	Jan 2012	#170
A balance approach is requried	ProgressiveProfessor	Jan 2012	#4
Unfortunately people like the Dominique Strauss-Kahns of this world will never learn these lessons,	Nye Bevan	Jan 2012	#5
Is there a copy of the ad somewhere	jberryhill	Jan 2012	#6
This article has a picture.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#8
Oh, wow, that's worse than I thought	jberryhill	Jan 2012	#9
they sexualized the girl while addressing rape. ONE of the many examples fed to our	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#94
headline is not very pleasant	quinnox	Jan 2012	#10
I agree it shouldn't be tossed around lightly.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#14
yup	quinnox	Jan 2012	#16
How not to get raped	Zalatix	Jan 2012	#12
How not to get the point	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#23
Not to speak for the poster you're responding to,	mythology	Jan 2012	#31
Still missing the point...	redqueen	Jan 2012	#33
You might as well try to educate lions not to prey on gazelles or whatever.	Zalatix	Jan 2012	#54
In other words, you're saying that	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#59
No, I am saying that people who are deviant are deviant.	Zalatix	Jan 2012	#64
Nonsense	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#68
how about if we simple change our language for our younger boys. make sure girl is enthusiastic	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#89
And stop telling girls it's bad to be that way.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#93
exactly allow a girl ownership of her sexuality. which is exactly opposite what society does today	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#96
Enthusiasm shouldn't be confused with consenting.	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#98
i would say, when she says stop, there is no longer the enthusiasm. nt	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#101
And that goes right back to the original point	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#118
i agree with all of it until the end	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#122
Thank you.	Sera_Bellum	Jan 2012	#114
the point is, and must be clear. because a girl says yes	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#115
that's pretty smart. nt	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#198
I guess you didn't read what I said. Anyone who fails to obey "no"	Zalatix	Jan 2012	#133
I did read what you wrote	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#159
How do you suppose to educate someone who excuses spousal rape?	Zalatix	Jan 2012	#169
First of all, unless you've been there, don't presume to know what it's like	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#174
Excuse me? You're the one cursing and getting irrational. I don't need to know what it's like	Zalatix	Jan 2012	#175
I am far from irrational. Cursing does not equate to irrationality.	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#185
i read it. what a post. nt	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#187
That is the best post I've ever seen on DU.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#188
This post deserves to be an OP	varelse	Jan 2012	#197
+1	redqueen	Jan 2012	#210
THANK YOU! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++	uppityperson	Jan 2012	#209
rape most certainly is deviant	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#199
in their mind, they are not interpreting it as rape. i dont know why people dont get this.	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#200
Check out the seduction community..	redqueen	Jan 2012	#204
i do not know what you are talking. i saw a bit on a thread. seduction has never worked for me.	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#206
It means if a woman starts resisting your advances for sex	redqueen	Jan 2012	#207
ya. that. eeew. it was in all the movies. it always made me uncomfortable. nt	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#211
im sure all sorts of deviants, not only rapists,	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#216
"Rape" as in "real rape" is "deviant."	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#218
one is either a rapist or not rapist. and if one is a rapist one is deviant - regardless of	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#222
The problem with this kind of thinking	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#231
uh, you are the one asserting that there is a third category (outside of rapist or not rapist),	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#233
I think you've completely misunderstood	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#238
as i suspected nt	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#240
Actually, if you put everything I've posted together...	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#242
seriously, can't you whittle this down to a succinct statement? like, two to three	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#243
No. I'm not you. Thank the goddess. n/t	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#244
better luck next time. nt	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#245
I'm not a psychologist, but. . . .	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#217
this is the problem and the refusal to allow this concept to be realized. for whatever reason, this	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#219
I think in some cases -- maybe here, maybe not -- it's fear	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#220
i think this should be the conversation, the starting point, in the next thread. nt	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#221
Excellent post.	ronnie624	Jan 2012	#152
The problem is that boys and men know it all, too,	Lance_Boyle	Jan 2012	#82
I dont think they do.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#84
It's NOT a tiny tiny minority	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#102
Again, you're making the assumption	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#45
That is superb -- brilliant too.	Remember Me	Jan 2012	#55
Because "assholes who rape" will stop being assholes if only they knew better?	mistertrickster	Jan 2012	#67
you are more concerned about the rad fems than girls/women being raped. and a boys/mans life ruined	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#91
exactly	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#103
i have a couple sons. i have a couple of nieces. you can damn well bet have discussed ownership	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#105
K&R	Solly Mack	Jan 2012	#15
My sister has 4 daughters - all of them small in stature	Sarah Ibarruri	Jan 2012	#17
And all those various things, those "safety measures" prove	Remember Me	Jan 2012	#56
I know. It's a bit of a war zone for us. nt	Sarah Ibarruri	Jan 2012	#58
I plan on doing both with my children.	ZombieHorde	Jan 2012	#18
+1000	Remember Me	Jan 2012	#235
rec x eleventy billion	lapislzi	Jan 2012	#19
People don't understand how painful their words can be.	Marrah_G	Jan 2012	#20
I've never been in a bar-fight.	mistertrickster	Jan 2012	#21
Please read the essay	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#24
Thank you.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#25
Looks to me like you're both telling me what I think and attacking me for it at the same time.	mistertrickster	Jan 2012	#65
No, I most certainly did not tell you what you think.	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#79
You seem to be assuming that women don't do anything to prevent rape	lunatica	Jan 2012	#86
Excellent response. n/t	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#104
"I also don't know any women who go to bars alone."	Sera_Bellum	Jan 2012	#117
i lived in reno, a 24 hour town, late shift. i went into bars alone. i had no problem, nor felt	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#124
I too lived in Reno for a few years;	greiner3	Jan 2012	#166
i would be served the booze. a lot. for free. lol lol.	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#167
Not all men are rapists -- BUT	Remember Me	Jan 2012	#236
Good idea	treestar	Jan 2012	#22
BRAVO Ebony Magazine.	Matariki	Jan 2012	#26
Jackson Katz has been trying to change this paradigm for some time, too.	PeaceNikki	Jan 2012	#27
Oh yes, I love his work...	redqueen	Jan 2012	#30
Here's another I literally just found that I think you'll enjoy:	PeaceNikki	Jan 2012	#32
Evidence-free conclusion . . .	mistertrickster	Jan 2012	#69
It's called male privilege	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#80
get a girl drunk on a date, men pay for it one way or another, no doesnt mean no.... the simple	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#99
This bears repeating: "prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction,"	Remember Me	Jan 2012	#241
k/r	fishwax	Jan 2012	#37
I'd like to clear something up.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#38
I am incredulous	etherealtruth	Jan 2012	#46
Uh, they're into denying ANY	Remember Me	Jan 2012	#57
I know	etherealtruth	Jan 2012	#172
Part of the response may be the caption - which wasn't limited to advertisements.	Ms. Toad	Jan 2012	#47
My daughters do not need ad campaigns, as I can provide them with basic, common sense advice myself.	Nye Bevan	Jan 2012	#50
college campus's now have a team of jr and sr that goes to these parties to watch out for the	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#97
This terrifies me.	stevenleser	Jan 2012	#157
All of the above. n/t	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#161
so much is about her own empowerment and confidence and that is gained in time.	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#164
As part of every graduation gift for young women, I give them Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift of Fear"	riderinthestorm	Jan 2012	#229
I entirely agree with the concept, but seriously lack the faith in testosterone laden persons to	Lionessa	Jan 2012	#39
You do realize how offensive that is, right?	redqueen	Jan 2012	#138
agreed. nt	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#143
"anti-rape campaigns that target young men and boys" vs	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#48
Fully agree. While boys need to be taught that "no means no"	Nye Bevan	Jan 2012	#49
they are both very important things to teach - nevermind public service announcements	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#192
This. n/t	lumberjack_jeff	Jan 2012	#77
Why is this so hard to understand?	EOTE	Jan 2012	#127
very good points. i do believe education (of boys and men) can prevent rapes	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#186
K&R!	Louisiana1976	Jan 2012	#51
I suspect this has been asked before but...	randome	Jan 2012	#53
Because I find them worthy of discussion.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#81
It's a huge social problem	chrisa	Jan 2012	#112
Exactly, it's men that need to be told to not rape.	Odin2005	Jan 2012	#60
Great idea. Tell bankers not to foreclose on people's houses while you're at it. nt	mistertrickster	Jan 2012	#75
Correction: it's rapists that need to be told to not rape.	Lance_Boyle	Jan 2012	#83
Once again, like it or not, ALL MEN are potential rapists	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#106
Or ask my friend who was raped by her BFs friend.	Odin2005	Jan 2012	#108
I guess what I dislike is this attitude	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#110
Silly Analogy	ProfessorGAC	Jan 2012	#128
You're not a rapist, but you are a potential rapist	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#130
Tansy, I'm going to be blunt.	Occulus	Jan 2012	#140
I have merely stated facts	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#142
Interesting to see the insults thrown around...	redqueen	Jan 2012	#144
Well? What the hell do you expect?	Occulus	Jan 2012	#147
sigh	redqueen	Jan 2012	#148
See below.	Occulus	Jan 2012	#150
It doesn't make any difference.	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#160
Rape is about power, not sex	FrodosPet	Jan 2012	#246
That's just blatantly offensive	Lance_Boyle	Jan 2012	#134
Lance, if you go back to the sex/women's issue threads of the past several weeks,	Occulus	Jan 2012	#135
It's not offensive and it's not wrong -- ALL WOMEN are potential false rape accusers	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#137
Apparently your logic is highly offensive.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#139
You mean, the thread that just got locked?	Occulus	Jan 2012	#145
POTENTIAL. You want to go look that up, or keep waving the strawman around?	redqueen	Jan 2012	#146
Distinction without a difference.	Occulus	Jan 2012	#149
We're done.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#151
There you go again	Occulus	Jan 2012	#154
I would say it's hard to believe that you actually truly do think...	redqueen	Jan 2012	#156
Saying "all men are potential rapists" does the trick rather nicely.	Occulus	Jan 2012	#158
No, it's just as logical. And thanks for the nasty picture, too...	redqueen	Jan 2012	#153
That picture has fuck-all to do with the way a woman looks	Occulus	Jan 2012	#155
Let's see.	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#162
no they aren't, that is a hateful thing to say.	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#189
I never said women can't or don't coerce or pester partners into sex	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#191
Just to clarify -- You do understand the difference between "potential" and "future," don't you?	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#193
i think you are being a bit more clear, i think	arely staircase	Jan 2012	#196
All WOMEN can potentially falsely accuse men of rape.	cottonseed	Jan 2012	#232
Yeah, I know. I said that.	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#239
Correction:	Sera_Bellum	Jan 2012	#121
this is the newest study and i cannot find others i have seen on this. it matters with study,	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#126
Yes, I know	Sera_Bellum	Jan 2012	#129
ahhhhh. really? wow. it was all layed out. a number of different studies	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#131
Try using the Wayback Machine or Google Cache...	justiceischeap	Jan 2012	#132
Thanks for posting that link.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#141
If there is any one person who explodes the "scary monster" myth	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#194
Yeah, society doesn't want to go down that road yet apparently...	redqueen	Jan 2012	#205
k&r	uppityperson	Jan 2012	#62
This article baldly states that "it's not effective" - any reason to believe that?	Donald Ian Rankin	Jan 2012	#63
Um, maybe if it were effective, women wouldn't still be getting raped?	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#66
"Only about 20% of rapes are reported to law enforcement"	mistertrickster	Jan 2012	#72
Many rapes are reported to other agencies besides law enforcement	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#73
Then those agencies are covering up a crime that should be prosecuted. nt	mistertrickster	Jan 2012	#74
Many rapes aren't reported BECAUSE they can't be prosecuted	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#76
Tansy you've done a terrific job of making your point on this thread	lunatica	Jan 2012	#87
+1	redqueen	Jan 2012	#90
Thank you, Lunatica, and redqueen, too	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#107
I think you've obviously got the bona fides to show you know what you're talking about	lunatica	Jan 2012	#109
What are YOU	Sera_Bellum	Jan 2012	#123
I would imagine if a woman goes to the hospital after she's been raped	justiceischeap	Jan 2012	#100
That is not logical, captain.	Donald Ian Rankin	Jan 2012	#113
a very large group of boys/men you do not address are those that dont see rape, as rape.	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#116
Yes	Sera_Bellum	Jan 2012	#125
Post removed	Post removed	Jan 2012	#71
I heard a LOT of advice when Kobe, Tyson, and Roethlisberger were accused.	U4ikLefty	Jan 2012	#70
AG Holder announces new FBI definition of rape	niyad	Jan 2012	#78
K	DeathToTheOil	Jan 2012	#85
I am so sick and tired of the women being blamed for this	LynneSin	Jan 2012	#95
I think a "don't rape" campaign could be effective,	chrisa	Jan 2012	#111
I am way late to this party. Busy few days, but have to add my "voice" of support. nt	riderinthestorm	Jan 2012	#165
"is it rape?"	mzteris	Jan 2012	#171
Thank you for posting that here. (nt)	redqueen	Jan 2012	#173
I'm sorry but a lot of us men would never dream of forcing ourselves on a woman and find this	ddeclue	Jan 2012	#176
1. There is no broad brushing of "all men as rapists".	redqueen	Jan 2012	#177
can I call you a whaambulance for telling you the truth?	ddeclue	Jan 2012	#178
No but you can use one yourself for your excuses for rejection.	redqueen	Jan 2012	#179
reply	ddeclue	Jan 2012	#180
i married my friend. i have always liked nice guys, wont accept anything less in my life	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#182
I've always preferred being sober	Tansy_Gold	Jan 2012	#190
... it just gets worse, doesn't it?	redqueen	Jan 2012	#183
...	ddeclue	Jan 2012	#230
Men AND women get drunk as an excuse to have sex	Hippo_Tron	Jan 2012	#202
If you assume that a woman gets drunk in order to have sex with you,	redqueen	Jan 2012	#203
Again, I don't see why this is so difficult...	Hippo_Tron	Jan 2012	#208
" a lot of women INTENTIONALLY go out and get that drunk on purpose ...	redqueen	Jan 2012	#212
As I posted above, I think the poster is frustrated by some bad experiences	Hippo_Tron	Jan 2012	#214
"too drunk for her own good"	redqueen	Jan 2012	#215
no I'm not saying most I am saying some...	ddeclue	Jan 2012	#228
You said "most".	redqueen	Jan 2012	#237
My rule is that she must be 1) more sober than me. 2) not have had more than 3 glasses of wine in	ddeclue	Jan 2012	#223
i think those are pretty good ground rules	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#224
actually I am such an easy drunk (and I am a relatively big guy) that 2 or 3 glasses and I have a	ddeclue	Jan 2012	#226
bah haha, see. i drink like you do.	seabeyond	Jan 2012	#227
I think you have entirely too broad a definition of "taking advantage of"	Hippo_Tron	Jan 2012	#234
You should be honored that several women found you to be trustworthy friends	Nikia	Jan 2012	#184
that would be great if it wasn't ALWAYS the case. Women love to make friends with me.	ddeclue	Jan 2012	#225
I think you're broad brushing women based on some bad experiences	Hippo_Tron	Jan 2012	#213
Sexual Assault Prevention Tips	JNelson6563	Jan 2012	#181
Never.	Iggo	Jan 2012	#195
I agreed up until the part about consumption of alcohol	Hippo_Tron	Jan 2012	#201

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