HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Stop Telling Women How to... » Reply #45

Response to mythology (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:22 PM

45. Again, you're making the assumption

that rape is perpetrated by strangers. Some guy who goes around checking for unlocked doors or lurks around hiking trails.

What we're talking about here is a culture that (not so) subtly says, "Hey, guys, if she's in a bar, she's easy. Ask her if she needs a ride home, and if she does, that's a good as saying she's ready to climb in the back seat in the parking lot."

When people right here on DU say that well, maybe if women don't want to be raped, they shouldn't go in bars, should wear make-up, shouldn't have a social drink, those people are saying women who do these things are consenting ahead of time to sex and have no defense. It's their own fault. If they didn't want to have sex with anyone and everyone, they shouldn't have gone to the bar, because it's not the rapists' fault! It's the woman's! She could have prevented it by not going in the bar!! Duh!"

What the Ebony essay and some of the rest of are saying is, that's wrong. It's NOT the woman's fault. It's the rapist's fault, and what we need to do is a better job of teling men, who are overwhelmingly the rapists of women, that no means no. It means no now, it means no later. No means no.

What part of that don't you get?

Is it so much to expect that men learn to control themselves in bars and at parties? They're able to control themselves on public sidewalks and in grocery stores and offices when they see a woman in a short skirt. So it's not that they physically can't control themselves; it's that they believe they've been given the right to behave differently.

That's an education thing.

A guy I know believed for years and years and years and years that there was no such thing as rape, period. Women consented, all the time. There was no such thing, because his mother (!) had always told him, "A woman can run faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down." One day I said to him, "What if there's nowhere for her to run to? What if he has a knife to her throat? What if he threatens her children? Is it rape then?" He didn't like admitting his mother was wrong, but he did.


For those who would like to read about my experience in a classroom academic discussion of rape in which a law enforcment professional defended his own right to have sex with a date, whether she consented or not, please see http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002100430#top

For the rest of you, here's the text of the flyer I handed out in that class:



“ ‘No’ is a complete sentence.”

“What part of ‘No’ don’t you understand?”

“ ‘No’ means ‘No.’ Period.”

If you have problems with those three lines, you may be a potential date rapist.

Is that a harsh statement? I don’t think so.

When a woman says no, it is up to you to accept her no and stop. At that moment. Unequivocally. If you do not, if you exercise your “right” to pressure her into having sex with you, whether that pressure is verbal, physical, sexual, or any other kind of pressure, you are stating very clearly that her wishes are ignorable. You state that you don’t believe her or that you don’t care if she’s telling the truth. If you persist in your “seduction,” you are saying that your desires are more important than her integrity, her personhood, her wishes, and that you, for whatever reason, have more of a right to have sex with her than she has the right to say no.

You may say that “when she says no, she really means not now,” and that the key to your success is maintaining the pressure until she gives in. That’s force. That’s coercion. That’s rape.

It is also a denial of her integrity as a person. You are saying that her words don’t mean what she says they do. You are also saying that you know her mind better than she does. Would you allow her the same liberties? Would you allow her to persist long after you had lost interest in her?

Many women have been so thoroughly conditioned and socialized by our society to think that they can be held responsible for someone else’s actions that they have lost the ability to say no. They have been taught that saying no doesn’t mean anything. They have been taught that their integrity doesn’t mean anything, because it can be overridden by your desires and you are more important than they are. So they don’t speak, they live in fear, even if it is not a palpable fear. And they allow you, by their frightened silence, to do things to them that they don’t want.

Nothing a woman has done with you in the past, even if she has had sex with you on a regular basis, even if she is your wife, nothing justifies your overriding her simple no. Nothing. You have no more right to continue talking her into something she doesn’t want to do that you have the right to shout “fire!” in a crowded theater. When your “right” infringes upon someone else’s right, you lose that right.

Does this mean you are going to have to give up some of your male privilege, your “right” to seduce and/or rape the women you desire? Yes. That you are going to have to learn that you are not more important than the women you date? Yes. That you have no right to pressure her, to coerce her, to force her? Yes.

“Yes,” in this case, is a complete sentence.

What part of “yes” don’t you understand?

Yes means yes.





Reply to this post

Back to OP Alert abuse Link to post in-thread

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 246 replies Author Time Post
redqueen Jan 2012 OP
Quantess Jan 2012 #1
arcane1 Jan 2012 #2
Remember Me Jan 2012 #52
arcane1 Jan 2012 #119
Orsino Jan 2012 #163
Hugabear Jan 2012 #3
redqueen Jan 2012 #7
ret5hd Jan 2012 #28
redqueen Jan 2012 #29
ret5hd Jan 2012 #34
etherealtruth Jan 2012 #35
ret5hd Jan 2012 #40
etherealtruth Jan 2012 #42
ret5hd Jan 2012 #43
etherealtruth Jan 2012 #44
redqueen Jan 2012 #36
ret5hd Jan 2012 #41
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #168
Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #61
redqueen Jan 2012 #88
seabeyond Jan 2012 #92
laundry_queen Jan 2012 #120
Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #136
yellowcanine Jan 2012 #11
Scootaloo Jan 2012 #13
Hosnon Jan 2012 #170
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #4
Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #5
jberryhill Jan 2012 #6
redqueen Jan 2012 #8
jberryhill Jan 2012 #9
seabeyond Jan 2012 #94
quinnox Jan 2012 #10
redqueen Jan 2012 #14
quinnox Jan 2012 #16
Zalatix Jan 2012 #12
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #23
mythology Jan 2012 #31
redqueen Jan 2012 #33
Zalatix Jan 2012 #54
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #59
Zalatix Jan 2012 #64
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #68
seabeyond Jan 2012 #89
redqueen Jan 2012 #93
seabeyond Jan 2012 #96
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #98
seabeyond Jan 2012 #101
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #118
seabeyond Jan 2012 #122
Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #114
seabeyond Jan 2012 #115
arely staircase Jan 2012 #198
Zalatix Jan 2012 #133
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #159
Zalatix Jan 2012 #169
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #174
Zalatix Jan 2012 #175
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #185
seabeyond Jan 2012 #187
redqueen Jan 2012 #188
varelse Jan 2012 #197
redqueen Jan 2012 #210
uppityperson Jan 2012 #209
arely staircase Jan 2012 #199
seabeyond Jan 2012 #200
redqueen Jan 2012 #204
seabeyond Jan 2012 #206
redqueen Jan 2012 #207
seabeyond Jan 2012 #211
arely staircase Jan 2012 #216
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #218
arely staircase Jan 2012 #222
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #231
arely staircase Jan 2012 #233
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #238
arely staircase Jan 2012 #240
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #242
arely staircase Jan 2012 #243
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #244
arely staircase Jan 2012 #245
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #217
seabeyond Jan 2012 #219
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #220
seabeyond Jan 2012 #221
ronnie624 Jan 2012 #152
Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #82
redqueen Jan 2012 #84
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #102
LineLineLineLineReply Again, you're making the assumption
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #45
Remember Me Jan 2012 #55
mistertrickster Jan 2012 #67
seabeyond Jan 2012 #91
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #103
seabeyond Jan 2012 #105
Solly Mack Jan 2012 #15
Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #17
Remember Me Jan 2012 #56
Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #58
ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #18
Remember Me Jan 2012 #235
lapislzi Jan 2012 #19
Marrah_G Jan 2012 #20
mistertrickster Jan 2012 #21
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #24
redqueen Jan 2012 #25
mistertrickster Jan 2012 #65
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #79
lunatica Jan 2012 #86
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #104
Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #117
seabeyond Jan 2012 #124
greiner3 Jan 2012 #166
seabeyond Jan 2012 #167
Remember Me Jan 2012 #236
treestar Jan 2012 #22
Matariki Jan 2012 #26
PeaceNikki Jan 2012 #27
redqueen Jan 2012 #30
PeaceNikki Jan 2012 #32
mistertrickster Jan 2012 #69
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #80
seabeyond Jan 2012 #99
Remember Me Jan 2012 #241
fishwax Jan 2012 #37
redqueen Jan 2012 #38
etherealtruth Jan 2012 #46
Remember Me Jan 2012 #57
etherealtruth Jan 2012 #172
Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #47
Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #50
seabeyond Jan 2012 #97
stevenleser Jan 2012 #157
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #161
seabeyond Jan 2012 #164
riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #229
Lionessa Jan 2012 #39
redqueen Jan 2012 #138
seabeyond Jan 2012 #143
arely staircase Jan 2012 #48
Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #49
arely staircase Jan 2012 #192
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2012 #77
EOTE Jan 2012 #127
arely staircase Jan 2012 #186
Louisiana1976 Jan 2012 #51
randome Jan 2012 #53
redqueen Jan 2012 #81
chrisa Jan 2012 #112
Odin2005 Jan 2012 #60
mistertrickster Jan 2012 #75
Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #83
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #106
Odin2005 Jan 2012 #108
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #110
ProfessorGAC Jan 2012 #128
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #130
Occulus Jan 2012 #140
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #142
redqueen Jan 2012 #144
Occulus Jan 2012 #147
redqueen Jan 2012 #148
Occulus Jan 2012 #150
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #160
FrodosPet Jan 2012 #246
Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #134
Occulus Jan 2012 #135
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #137
redqueen Jan 2012 #139
Occulus Jan 2012 #145
redqueen Jan 2012 #146
Occulus Jan 2012 #149
redqueen Jan 2012 #151
Occulus Jan 2012 #154
redqueen Jan 2012 #156
Occulus Jan 2012 #158
redqueen Jan 2012 #153
Occulus Jan 2012 #155
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #162
arely staircase Jan 2012 #189
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #191
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #193
arely staircase Jan 2012 #196
cottonseed Jan 2012 #232
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #239
Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #121
seabeyond Jan 2012 #126
Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #129
seabeyond Jan 2012 #131
justiceischeap Jan 2012 #132
redqueen Jan 2012 #141
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #194
redqueen Jan 2012 #205
uppityperson Jan 2012 #62
Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #63
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #66
mistertrickster Jan 2012 #72
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #73
mistertrickster Jan 2012 #74
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #76
lunatica Jan 2012 #87
redqueen Jan 2012 #90
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #107
lunatica Jan 2012 #109
Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #123
justiceischeap Jan 2012 #100
Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #113
seabeyond Jan 2012 #116
Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #125
Post removed Jan 2012 #71
U4ikLefty Jan 2012 #70
niyad Jan 2012 #78
LineReply K
DeathToTheOil Jan 2012 #85
LynneSin Jan 2012 #95
chrisa Jan 2012 #111
riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #165
mzteris Jan 2012 #171
redqueen Jan 2012 #173
ddeclue Jan 2012 #176
redqueen Jan 2012 #177
ddeclue Jan 2012 #178
redqueen Jan 2012 #179
ddeclue Jan 2012 #180
seabeyond Jan 2012 #182
Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #190
redqueen Jan 2012 #183
ddeclue Jan 2012 #230
Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #202
redqueen Jan 2012 #203
Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #208
redqueen Jan 2012 #212
Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #214
redqueen Jan 2012 #215
ddeclue Jan 2012 #228
redqueen Jan 2012 #237
ddeclue Jan 2012 #223
seabeyond Jan 2012 #224
ddeclue Jan 2012 #226
seabeyond Jan 2012 #227
Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #234
Nikia Jan 2012 #184
ddeclue Jan 2012 #225
Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #213
JNelson6563 Jan 2012 #181
Iggo Jan 2012 #195
Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #201
Please login to view edit histories.