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wnylib

(25,258 posts)
16. No, I did not miss any part of your post.
Sun Jun 23, 2024, 12:18 AM
Jun 2024

That suggestion sounds good on the surface, but misses a few things about how most churches operate. It assumes that they are a profit making enterprise that should be taxed on their income, with an exception for charitable work which would operate separately from the religious services. But, aside from the obvious grifters who use religion for themselves, churches are not profit making businesses. What would a tax be based on? The donations of parishioners? Also, the facilities used for religion and those used for charity overlap to a point that it would be exorbitantly expensive and not feasible to separate them. More on that later.

Churches already have budgets with separate categories for maintenance, salaries of employees, electricity, gas, water, miscellaneous expenses, and charities. The charities are further subdivided according to external programs that they support, i.e. food banks and homeless shelters, and internal programs like tutoring children, preparing meals for homeless and needy people. The prepared food is donated and prepared by volunteers. It's not a profit making restaurant or catering service.

Salaried empoyees are the pastor, organist, secretary, and maintenance person in many churches. But in small ones some of those positions are often voluntary.
Some churches run day care programs for infants and toddlers, so there are teachers/caretakers to pay. Money for salaries and equipment for the day cares comes from parents who can afford to pay. Some parents can't afford it so church donations and fundraisers make up the difference. Church day care centers have to meet all government regulations and inspections, of course.

Here's the problem with trying to separate religious activities from charity. Most churches have a kitchen and an attached fellowship hall. The kitchens usually have a large oven with stovetop burners, a refrigerator and freezer, pots, pans, a large set (or multiple sets) of dishes and flatware, various cooking utensils, and a dishwasher. Depending on the size of the congregation, it might be a restaurant type industrial dishwasher.

The fellowship hall might be used on Sunday morning for adult Bible study, with coffee and snacks from the kitchen. But during the week, the fellowship hall is used as a cooling shelter during heat waves, or a heated shelter during blizzards and deep freezes. It can be used on a Sunday morning or weekday evening for a dinner or reception (with coffee and snacks from the kitchen) to welcome a new pastor, or for a social event for the church's youth group. But on other occasions, it is used for a fundraising dinner, open to both the congregation and general public, with a fee for the dinner. But the funds are being raised to donate to a domestic violence shelter, or to a rehab facility for addictions, or to provide local police with equipment and training to use Naloxone for opioid victims.

So the kitchen and fellowship room are used for religious activities AND charities. The food for meals and snacks is either donated by church members or bought from the appropriate budget category. Meal preparation, servibg, and cleanup are done by volunteers for religious and for charity functions. Surely you would not suggest that there be two separate, fully equipped kitchens and fellowship halls.

Sometimes a church member will bequeath a specified amount to the church for a specific purchase, like a new refrigerator to replace an old run down one. Should that be taxed since the new fridge will be used for religious AND charity functions?

Except for salaried employees, all work done in the church for running the Sunday School, singing in the choir, ushering people to seats, providing flowers for the altar, taking the youth group on outings, is done by church member volunteers. Raising charity donations, preparing and distributing donated food, delivering clothing and toiletries to various shelters, etc. is also done by volunteer church members or non members who just want to support worthy causes.

Should the volunteer work be counted as taxable income based on the value of the work done ? Should the donated food, clothing, and toiletries be taxed for their money value as "income?"


Recommendations

1 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Your church is not one of them. [View all] onecaliberal Jun 2024 OP
What rationale is there not to tax the churches? Stardust Mirror Jun 2024 #1
They are also interfering in the operation of our gov't. Irish_Dem Jun 2024 #4
Nazi MAGA shithead Jack Hibbs admitted he was instrumental in flipping the Chino Hills school board. Initech Jun 2024 #23
They are no longer churches, they are political operatives. Irish_Dem Jun 2024 #25
For sure! Initech Jun 2024 #26
People don't want to follow church dogma, so the church leaders make it the law Irish_Dem Jun 2024 #29
no true Scotsman nt Stardust Mirror Jun 2024 #39
When were they not? dchill Jun 2024 #28
Back in the day, I don't remember priests and nuns lecturing people Irish_Dem Jun 2024 #41
They still don't. demosincebirth Jun 2024 #44
That is absolutely true, and it is why the rationale - and there was one - no loger holds. soldierant Jun 2024 #40
They said screw that, let's go for money and power. Irish_Dem Jun 2024 #42
The belief is (was?) they did more good through their charity than would be generated in tax revenue OnlinePoker Jun 2024 #6
The rationale is that they are nonprofit organizations. wnylib Jun 2024 #7
thanks . i was going to post something on this line , but the last time i did it i got yelled at. AllaN01Bear Jun 2024 #8
I've noticed that the harshest criticism of churches wnylib Jun 2024 #9
did you miss this part? Stardust Mirror Jun 2024 #10
my church split our two major charities into separate 503C non profits yellowdogintexas Jun 2024 #12
cool Stardust Mirror Jun 2024 #13
The finances of the churches that I know are not secret. wnylib Jun 2024 #36
Here is a link that describes the IRS criteria for wnylib Jun 2024 #37
from your link: Stardust Mirror Jun 2024 #38
Thank you for describing the work that your church does. wnylib Jun 2024 #24
No, I did not miss any part of your post. wnylib Jun 2024 #16
how about churches being required to have open books? Stardust Mirror Jun 2024 #17
I don't know what churches you are thinking about, wnylib Jun 2024 #18
if your church's books are so open then no problem if all others would be too Stardust Mirror Jun 2024 #21
You don't need a church to do charitable work. Sky Jewels Jun 2024 #11
Of course you don't need a church to do charitable work. wnylib Jun 2024 #22
So what if some churches ordain women and have female clergy? Sky Jewels Jun 2024 #34
yeah show me where that was said in this thread Stardust Mirror Jun 2024 #14
I believe that religion in this world has been at the center most conflicts..... usaf-vet Jun 2024 #15
It may not happen where you volunteer.... usedtobedemgurl Jun 2024 #20
It's all about the Benjamins. dchill Jun 2024 #30
Effin' great points! Doc Sportello Jun 2024 #27
Spot on! anciano Jun 2024 #2
As Jesus said, Gruenemann Jun 2024 #3
Remind me Cherokee100 Jun 2024 #5
Agree republianmushroom Jun 2024 #19
I hope this ages well 0rganism Jun 2024 #31
Because of the FOUNDING FATHERS underpants Jun 2024 #32
Not every church is one of them bernieb Jun 2024 #33
No church anywhere is a branch of the government . onecaliberal Jun 2024 #35
I 💯 percent agree BlueKota Jun 2024 #43
The separation of Church and State is a fundamental part of our goverment LetMyPeopleVote Jun 2024 #45
Tax the Church lindalou65 Jun 2024 #46
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