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Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
15. I think you are quite wrong
Mon Dec 31, 2012, 10:51 PM
Dec 2012

Under Section 8 of the Constitution:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#section8
"To borrow money on the credit of the United States" is one of the Congressional powers.

Only Congress has the power to borrow money, but it does so by means of the Treasury (Dept of Treasury executes the borrowing Congress has authorized).

Once the money has been borrowed, of course the "full faith and credit" clause comes in - but note Congress has disregarded it before when defaulting on the Liberty bonds.

Because it is Congress which has instituted the debt limit, borrowing money over the current debt limit is by definition outside the power of the Treasury Department. It is true that authorized spending may allow branches of the Executive to go to the Treasury for money raised by issuing debt, but the Treasury does not have the legal authority to raise the authorized debt limit.

Congress can appropriate revenues and spending, but when revenues fall short that doesn't mean that the Executive can borrow, given that Congress has explicitly set a limit (albeit often changing) on the debt limit. Congress doesn't have to set a debt limit, but it certainly has the constitutional power to do so, and when it has done so, no other branch of government has the right to ignore that debt limit.

By definition, if Treasury were to issue debt over the current debt limit it would be a debt NOT "authorized by law", which is what the 14th Amendment covers:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

In any case, as a practical matter, if Treasury were to issue bonds that had the effect of exceeding the legal debt limit, it is likely only the Fed would buy them, because it is probable that at a later date they would be first in line for default due to never having been legally authorized and therefore not subject to the 14th Amendment.

I agree the whole debt ceiling charade seems unconstitutional to me. grantcart Dec 2012 #1
Congress hasn't passed a budget in years Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #16
Well a lot of the nations' leading legal scholars disagree with you grantcart Dec 2012 #18
Youngstown Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #19
k&r... spanone Dec 2012 #2
So this is the law and the POTUS should just enforce it? Deep13 Dec 2012 #3
Thank you, louis Cha Dec 2012 #4
Damn good point! annabanana Dec 2012 #5
Ah, but I've been told today on DU that the constitution should be ignored n2doc Dec 2012 #6
It is a document that is subject to interpretation and change louis c Dec 2012 #7
i don't think that I'd note it works FreeJoe Dec 2012 #8
The debt ceiling increases are for all past spending. louis c Dec 2012 #9
That's precisely the point. Igel Dec 2012 #11
But I bet if the budget doesn't balance, you still have to eat louis c Dec 2012 #12
That is the weirdest reasoning I have ever seen Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #17
Come on louis c Jan 2013 #23
No, purchases on credit is debt. Igel Jan 2013 #35
Are you kidding me? louis c Dec 2012 #13
Yes, I probably will. Igel Jan 2013 #36
"National Debt" and "Public Debt" are all inclusive louis c Jan 2013 #37
I think it's a lot simpler than the 14th amendment jeff47 Dec 2012 #10
+1. nt bemildred Dec 2012 #14
I think you are quite wrong Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #15
Congress continues to make laws that the Government must pay louis c Jan 2013 #22
Why I disagree with your reasoning Jim Lane Jan 2013 #30
Congress passes laws that must be obeyed louis c Jan 2013 #31
That answers nothing. Jim Lane Jan 2013 #32
From article 9 of the Constitution... Redfairen Jan 2013 #20
The debt ceiling is about "appropriations (already) made by law" louis c Jan 2013 #21
Debt Ceiling buzzroller Jan 2013 #24
Welcome to DU, buzzroller louis c Jan 2013 #25
I am hoping to hear this from the Obama administration buzzroller Jan 2013 #26
Some questions exboyfil Jan 2013 #27
I think that he should just ignore the debt ceiling louis c Jan 2013 #28
Can you get a ruling without standing? exboyfil Jan 2013 #29
It's ripe for a challenge, the debt ceiling is. DevonRex Jan 2013 #33
The time is now. Faryn Balyncd Jan 2013 #34
Get on board, this discussion will be the all the rage in the coming weeks louis c Jan 2013 #38
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