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struggle4progress

(118,281 posts)
8. OK. Here's my advice. Discussions of this sort typically polarize in predictable ways,
Tue Jul 30, 2013, 05:22 AM
Jul 2013

after which the battle-lines are drawn and no one is willing to shift position

So don't argue along the lines of standard dichotomies provided by the corporate media, because that's almost always a recipe for stale-mate discussion and a default win by the status quo

It's important, when thinking about this, to understand where the public actually is -- and they're actually in a state of confusion, needing clarity. Large numbers of people have no idea who Snowden is, few think he's a traitor, many think he's a whistle-blower, but large numbers believe he should be prosecuted. Similarly, most people think the NSA has inadequate oversight and has gone too far -- and yet most people support the program anyway!

To win, one needs to provide that clarity with an accurate fact-based analysis, that simultaneously informs people and forces them to think about the issues in new ways. By "accurate fact-based," I mean that the analysis is built on solid facts that can be proved and that it avoids comments that can easily be dismissed as pure opinion. Abandoning fact for opinion merely invites shouting -- and making claims, that one cannot prove, courts PR disaster and loss of credibility

So get your facts right: know the history, know what can be proved, and know what you can't prove. You can effectively use your concerns about possibilities that worry you, provided you raise such issues as precise unanswered QUESTIONS that you convince people MUST be answered

And it's necessary to keep your PoV short and clean and targeted: discussions can be derailed in a thousand ways; if you gaffe in front of the press, it won't matter if you otherwise gave a brilliant fifteen minute speech -- you should expect that your gaffe will be the evening news

But to win, there is another important component: you MUST know WHAT you want to happen -- and it needs to be SPECIFIC, it needs to be DOABLE, and it needs to be RELATED to your analysis. It's irresponsible just to get people angry, or just to make people feel uncomfortable and insecure, without giving them somewhere to go and something to do, because in the end that merely produces the despair and helplessness and burn-out and inaction -- in which case, nothing really happens and the status quo wins again

Here's a tiny example: "Did you know that under current law the government doesn't need a warrant to read your emails, if they're over six months old? Why should the government be able to do that? And what are they doing with it? We should change that law. Call Senator X! Call Congressman Y!"

Another important point is that you don't actually know what people on the street are thinking, unless you converse with them. You won't know what arguments convince them unless you pay attention to what they say and to how they react to what you say

There are actually multiple issues here, and it's difficult to put them all together in a single package. I see real potential in discussing the risks associated with privatization of "national security" but I wouldn't feel bad pointing to Snowden as part of the problem. YMMV. If (say) you want to go after the FISA warrants, and the possibility that NSA is mass-collecting phone data, then learn everything you can about the associated history, the current state of the law, and the real potential for abuse -- and come up with a very specific CHANGE you want

Here's another tiny example: "Did you know that under current law the government doesn't need a warrant to collect your phone records? Or that the secret FISA court seems to be authorizing the mass-collection of Americans' phone records? What will prevent future Presidents from abusing this such information to harass political opponents? Surely the Supreme Court in the 1960s didn't intend to allow mass-collection of phone records! The FISA Courts were originally intended to avoid the Executive over-reach of the Nixon era! How did we get here? Congress needs to limit the scope of FISA warrants! &c&c"

To win: know your stuff; break the issue into bite-size pieces; avoid philosophy and keep the discussion concrete and factual; and know what you're asking people to do


You need to get Congress to change the law. Obama has little to do with what the shadow kelliekat44 Jul 2013 #1
President Obama has one of the most powerful tools at his disposal; political capital. Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #2
look..over there....snowden hiding in the land of the gay bashers nt msongs Jul 2013 #3
"Condemning" does NOT change the law BumRushDaShow Jul 2013 #25
The NSA is in the Executive Branch, and the top of that is Obama. Waiting For Everyman Jul 2013 #47
First off, the president didn't collect the data. My bet is that the spooks collecting the data geckosfeet Jul 2013 #4
When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal Fire Walk With Me Jul 2013 #5
So sayeth the "Unindicted Co-Conspirator" who was pardoned for crimes before and after. Zen Democrat Jul 2013 #30
At this juncture the "deniers" are so emotionally locked in you'll never change them Fumesucker Jul 2013 #6
We have already received the data, look at your bill, same information. Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #12
LOL!! JoePhilly Jul 2013 #16
What part of "printed transcript" did you fail to understand? Fumesucker Jul 2013 #23
What part of phone call records in your bill do you not understand? Why should you get the Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #29
you have no clue how telecomunications work snooper2 Jul 2013 #31
Put yourself in Harriet Tubman's shoes. In trying to win over slaves who worked in the house, jtuck004 Jul 2013 #7
OK. Here's my advice. Discussions of this sort typically polarize in predictable ways, struggle4progress Jul 2013 #8
Great post. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #17
Good advice. GiaGiovanni Jul 2013 #44
Well said... this should be required reading on DU. DCBob Jul 2013 #45
Well stated flamingdem Jul 2013 #51
Obviously you didn't work hard enough since you called them "deniers". How ironic. n/t vaberella Jul 2013 #9
The word "denier" is accurate, is it not? marions ghost Jul 2013 #14
How does name-calling and faux labels help a discussion? BumRushDaShow Jul 2013 #26
name-calling? marions ghost Jul 2013 #46
Thank You For Sharing - Well Said cantbeserious Jul 2013 #10
B. Franklin: They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, on point Jul 2013 #11
So let's disband the police force. JoePhilly Jul 2013 #19
Essential is a term that could be debated all day treestar Jul 2013 #21
It's likely Ben Franklin was referring to the 'essential liberties' described here: ronnie624 Jul 2013 #50
we don't know if POTUS is capable of reeling this in nashville_brook Jul 2013 #13
I think you're right about that marions ghost Jul 2013 #15
Have you tried ROFL smilies? Capt. Obvious Jul 2013 #18
Call them authoritarians treestar Jul 2013 #20
One day. Sad , but inevitable, the GOP will have the White House again Vanje Jul 2013 #22
republicans will do it no matter how well we fix it. sigmasix Jul 2013 #38
....and I thought I was the most cynical person Vanje Jul 2013 #43
Sadly, many can not think past the "Here and Now". RC Jul 2013 #39
Some Of Us Do Multitask... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #24
First we need to get past the fact that Life Long Dem Jul 2013 #27
That may be true but why then when I sign up with a snappyturtle Jul 2013 #34
Because the law says your phone number is private but that Life Long Dem Jul 2013 #42
Then let the phone company store the data and if I become snappyturtle Jul 2013 #48
Metadata includes much more than a phone number. Ms. Toad Jul 2013 #37
The records the hospital keeps of our medical procedures may not be "our property" either... backscatter712 Jul 2013 #49
I'm attempting to find the perfect way to get people to stop conflating different programs jeff47 Jul 2013 #28
The only way would be for President Obama to agree that the current situation is bad n2doc Jul 2013 #32
My problem is that the data is being gathered by Generals, retired Generals, Admirals, etc. Zen Democrat Jul 2013 #33
K&R Bottom line: There'd be little/no defense of the president's NSA support if the prez were still MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #35
+10,000 RC Jul 2013 #41
it's not the wording, it's the timing alc Jul 2013 #36
Good luck with that. Safetykitten Jul 2013 #40
2 points grasswire Jul 2013 #52
Yes, 'deniers' require proof from those doing the accusing railsback Jul 2013 #53
I may trust Obama but that doesn't mean that future Presidents will not abuse ... spin Jul 2013 #54
"If this was not harmful to the American public, this guy would not have lied to Congress about it." AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2013 #55
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