Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Joel thakkar

(363 posts)
144. Depends upon how you define socialism
Sat Nov 16, 2013, 01:04 PM
Nov 2013

Last edited Sat Nov 16, 2013, 01:35 PM - Edit history (1)

According to me,

Socialism differs from communism. Socialism allows private business, private property, freedom of religion, free speech, a health-functional multi-party democracy, a rich class (although not uber rich like capitalist market) and few more liberties.

Socialism also includes free education, free healthcare and a good pension system for old people. Important sectors like Energy, defence, banks are often 100% state controlled or often state-private control exist with good amount of regulation. Socialist countries also have a tendency to spend less on defense and more on healthcare, infrastructure and education. Above to all, people trust in their govt and have an open minded view for any new govt program instead of cynicism (like in capitalist market).

There exist a rich class in socialist country but they have a very limited chance of growth. Thus, uber-rich people normally don't exist in socialist country. Poor class are often provided with lots of govt benefits to make uplift them.


Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, new-zealand etc pretty close according to my definition of socialism.

Problems with socialism :

1) Less future monetary rewards decrease the money/time spend on R & D , Innovation by private companies. This makes country less efficient and less innovative.

Solution : Govt needs to fill in the gap and spend more on R & D, Innovation and make pro R & D, Innovation policies to encourage private companies.

2) Youth can get away from STEM and other intensive College majors and spends more time in Liberal Arts and pursuits others aspirations in life. It is not a bad thing but a decrease in stem and other research is also not good for the overall economic competitiveness of the country.

Solution : Govt can make pro-immigration policies of allowing people having Masters/PHDs in specific areas to settle easily in the country. Some specific STEM subjects can be made compulsory in middle and high school. More grants/scholarships/contests etc can be given to specific STEM areas to increase youth interest.

3) Corrupted Politicians can come into power and ruin the whole system.

Solution : A very transparent govt system and bureaucratic system. An active participation of people in democracy. (For example : people in Switzerland vote directly for any new bill which gets 100k+ signatures). A clear boundary between politicians/political parties and private sector companies. A limit to amount of political donation from private companies and rich/influential people.

4)) People can get dis-satisfied due to not being more rich enough in comparison. Human nature sometimes love power, money and a dominance over other human. Maybe hard working people think that they are richer than other people but not rich enough which they should be in correspondence to their hard work.

Solution : A Societal change in attitude is needed. Hard work doesn't always need to be rewards in terms of monetary gains. Respect, Fame, Popularity, trust etc are also rewards of hard work. People should be given their due in all aspects, not only monetary forms.

so what is exactly wrong with socialism? [View all] Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 OP
Here's a great piece for a local historian PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #1
Great add, PeaceNikki. freshwest Nov 2013 #43
quaint idea--trust in authority BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2013 #68
sociialism doesn't mean authority Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #71
I paraphrased that from the article. BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2013 #76
Well see, that's where Marx and Engels come into play........ socialist_n_TN Nov 2013 #133
no argument there! BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2013 #138
Thanks PeaceNikki. Amazing the number of folks right here in Wisconsin who have no clue ... Scuba Nov 2013 #113
There's nothing wrong with socialism. Oakenshield Nov 2013 #2
The fear factor, public enemy, 'reds under the beds' etc. Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #3
They do equate socialism with communism, but even then I believe they are making a huge error... rwsanders Nov 2013 #53
exactly Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #60
We can lay blame on the Soviets for putting "Socialist" in their name gtar100 Nov 2013 #121
Not a thing unless Moliere Nov 2013 #4
+1 Wealthy parasites and wannabes are the only ones who should be hating it. idwiyo Nov 2013 #12
It depends on how socialism is defined. Laelth Nov 2013 #115
Is it necessarily state ownership? Or are there other types of socialism? eomer Nov 2013 #134
I actually went to wikipedia to bone up on this. Laelth Nov 2013 #135
Right, I was going off on a different tangent than your main point. eomer Nov 2013 #142
I think the term "State" in these definitions ..... oldhippie Nov 2013 #136
Yes, that makes sense. eomer Nov 2013 #143
The concern is equally low standards for everyone... Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #5
Well, socialism has high standards Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #6
In theory .. Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #22
yes some organizations are better than others Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #26
Well, we've already tried the lassez-faire thing for a few decades, and the result is ~20% nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #81
Unregulated capitalism stinks, indeed. Laelth Nov 2013 #124
Albert Einstein and Jesus Christ were both socialists. Pass it on. JEFF9K Nov 2013 #7
K & R Thinkingabout Nov 2013 #11
Einstein helped bring us nuclear weapons and energy FrodosPet Nov 2013 #13
Jesus Hates fags? PatrynXX Nov 2013 #25
Old man Phelps is a bad speller Thor_MN Nov 2013 #48
God is GREAT! FrodosPet Nov 2013 #49
Well said. JEFF9K Nov 2013 #179
It wasn't Einstein's fault! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #28
That is not accurate at all. zeemike Nov 2013 #29
You are correct FrodosPet Nov 2013 #45
^^^THIS^^^ alittlelark Nov 2013 #72
+1 uponit7771 Nov 2013 #166
Yes! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #18
Nothing. Everything is right about it. Every damn thing. idwiyo Nov 2013 #8
If by "socialism" you mean Social Democracy, or something like it, I'm inclined to agree. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #88
Soviet-style "communism" was not communism or socialism. idwiyo Nov 2013 #110
I have no argument with any of that, honestly. Sounds like paradise. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #111
The only thing wrong with state socialism is its propensity toward cronyism. joshcryer Nov 2013 #9
Financial industry among others dreamnightwind Nov 2013 #14
Well regulated, yes. joshcryer Nov 2013 #15
Black market economies are not what is destroying this planet - eom dreamnightwind Nov 2013 #17
It can be regulated Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #31
All you need is a government printing money and regulating interest rates. joshcryer Nov 2013 #105
socialism works well for all services free at the point of use Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #20
Historically, it's been just that tripping up attempts at socialism. bluestate10 Nov 2013 #23
Why does it have to be a choice between pure socialism and pure capitalism? MyNameGoesHere Nov 2013 #46
Capitalists do not have the ethos of prosperity and redistribution Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #55
Exactly. Things don't have to be the way they are now, but they don't have to be like the U.S.S.R. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #90
Think you are jumbling economic and political systems - TBF Nov 2013 #116
I think it's a choice between cronyism and fairness, myself. joshcryer Nov 2013 #106
IOW, public goods are GOOD, but not everything is a public good n/t eridani Nov 2013 #112
I make a point to defend socialism every chance I get. Curmudgeoness Nov 2013 #10
Probably because the Nazis had socialism in their name although Cleita Nov 2013 #16
Adolf Hitler purged the Marxists from the NSDAP DissidentVoice Nov 2013 #40
And the Soviets did it with communism. libdem4life Nov 2013 #54
I liked this post Rider3 Nov 2013 #19
Do you still? Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #21
Poster probably meant "rec'd" as they are listed under it. kentauros Nov 2013 #32
Thanks! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #35
I'm still working on that hippie art colony. Manifestor_of_Light Nov 2013 #98
Eventually I'll learn arc-welding. kentauros Nov 2013 #102
Nothing is wrong with it :) Marrah_G Nov 2013 #24
Yeah! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #27
Mostly the fact that we seem to lack it Scootaloo Nov 2013 #30
People don't really know what it is Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #33
My experience? Scootaloo Nov 2013 #37
It's like my knowledge of the NFL Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #39
You might be a socialist if: ErikJ Nov 2013 #34
I think that we need to educate people Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #36
Not a thing DissidentVoice Nov 2013 #38
When we think back to Romney and his USSR! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #41
If not genes, then propaganda DissidentVoice Nov 2013 #42
It's great for social needs, not so good for private needs seveneyes Nov 2013 #44
Depends on what private needs you have? Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #47
What are the "private needs" that are impinged upon by Socialism? Maedhros Nov 2013 #52
I believe seveneyes is speaking of systems like the Soviet Union. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #118
You are correct seveneyes Nov 2013 #126
Most of us on DU Enthusiast Nov 2013 #139
Acknowledged seveneyes Nov 2013 #140
yes Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #171
The Soviet Union was more "totalitarian" than it was "socialist." Maedhros Nov 2013 #156
We agree on that.....nt Enthusiast Nov 2013 #162
Here they come! RosettaStoned77 Nov 2013 #50
When I cam to this country I was shocked that republicans were actually RED!!! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #63
Same here. RosettaStoned77 Nov 2013 #92
The only thing wrong with socialism is the people who have run it Warpy Nov 2013 #51
Socialism only moves slowly because it is prevented from doing so by big bad US corporations/repubs Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #56
I always found it odd that SOCIAL Security and Medicare ... spin Nov 2013 #57
Republicans use socialist services Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #89
Our collective amygala has been trained to hate and fear it, but not define it. arcane1 Nov 2013 #58
So what's wrong with socialism? - "Nothing" say the people of Seattle who just elected a Socialist OutNow Nov 2013 #59
Great! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #62
If socialism is so great, there must be many thriving, prosperous, socialist countries, Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #61
Well if the corps weren't in control, yes! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #65
Right. Oakenshield Nov 2013 #66
LOL. If Sweden, Denmark and Norway are socialist countries, Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #74
Scandinavia is not exactly socialist Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #77
Scandinavia is plenty closer than we are anyway. Oakenshield Nov 2013 #100
These countries are a lot nicer to people in need Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #172
All of which have thriving free market economies that embrace capitalism. Nt hack89 Nov 2013 #83
What does that have to do with socialism? ZombieHorde Nov 2013 #108
True - capitalism is required to generate the wealth needed to make socialism work hack89 Nov 2013 #129
Sweden? Denmark? May not be "pure" socialism but no one said they had to be... nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #95
I'm just fine with Sweden and Denmark. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #96
It's the kind of "socialism" I would tend to favor, anyhow. Can't speak for anyone else. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #97
I'm with you..............nt Enthusiast Nov 2013 #119
Absolutely MyNameGoesHere Nov 2013 #114
Wrong. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #120
This country is pretty socialist when you get right down to it treestar Nov 2013 #141
Workers do not control the means of production, so not entirely Socialist. [n/a] Maedhros Nov 2013 #158
True, though tell that to a right winger treestar Nov 2013 #161
I'm routinely appalled by the widespread lack of knowledge Maedhros Nov 2013 #170
Right, because multinational corporations would ever allow that to happen. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #174
I use their buzzwords to make them think: freshwest Nov 2013 #64
Socialism is about people and ownership Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #69
Our water is supplied by the City and the reservoir and pipes are maintained by the city Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #173
anything that does not directly profit the already rich is anathema to the GOP and... yurbud Nov 2013 #67
Unfortunately we have some Democrats like that Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #70
I bought that until the health care debate and constituents in those red states... yurbud Nov 2013 #163
Pure Socialism assumes a better human nature than actually exists--at least in meaningful quantities Gore1FL Nov 2013 #73
No, governemnt should not get out of the way but.. Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #78
There are good points, and bad points to every political system. Savannahmann Nov 2013 #75
"Socialist Governments tend to be right on the verge of dictatorships" Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #82
Agreed without reservation. Savannahmann Nov 2013 #99
Socialism can suck for rich people, Jamaal510 Nov 2013 #79
How do you know that theywould have to have higher taxes? Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #91
Because that's Jamaal510 Nov 2013 #94
Nothing, per se. It's actually the best of the lot. DeSwiss Nov 2013 #80
There is noting wrong with any utopian system, even socialism Agnosticsherbet Nov 2013 #84
Can you explain to me how capitalism has NOT spun out of control? TBF Nov 2013 #117
I didn't post on that economic system called Capitalism as it wasn't in the OP Agnosticsherbet Nov 2013 #167
I think you are confusing communism with socialism or something else Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #178
In liberalism, economic rights are the right to work and to profit from it, whether with your hands Agnosticsherbet Nov 2013 #181
Capitalism is a sub sect of judaism Rain Mcloud Nov 2013 #85
who said the wealthy are handpicked by God? Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #87
It is a repeated theme in the Bible. Rain Mcloud Nov 2013 #101
What happened to the separation of state and religion ? Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #149
What's wrong with Socialism? ReRe Nov 2013 #86
Ahhhhh! Keep your hands off my medicare you socialists! RosettaStoned77 Nov 2013 #93
Good! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #103
Nothing. Starry Messenger Nov 2013 #104
We need socialist policies for basic human needs and protections... inelastic demands. HijackedLabel Nov 2013 #107
^^^^^^^^ questionseverything Nov 2013 #154
Nothing. ronnie624 Nov 2013 #109
Well, you're right. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #123
It's unAmerican. sibelian Nov 2013 #122
One day when 50%+ population wants socialism Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #148
It's unAmerican. LWolf Nov 2013 #125
Well, you know what they say... GladRagDahl Nov 2013 #127
Ah yes, Ms Thatcher....... socialist_n_TN Nov 2013 #165
No, that's not what she implied. GladRagDahl Nov 2013 #189
The only "Problem" is that the super rich lose all their power. Taitertots Nov 2013 #128
What do you mean? FreeJoe Nov 2013 #130
There is not a 100% capitalist country nor a 100% Socialist country Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #147
This is a great example of why I typically avoid Socialism discussions FreeJoe Nov 2013 #177
Not a damn thing. 99Forever Nov 2013 #131
+1 Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #146
Imagine that all fast food restaurants were run by the US Postal Service FarCenter Nov 2013 #132
That's a far fetched definition Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #145
Government is likely better able to own and operate restaurants than healthcare or banking FarCenter Nov 2013 #150
nothing is 100% pure Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #155
I'd love to see fast food chains disappear altogether 2banon Nov 2013 #152
Yes, have it your way for under .50 Starry Messenger Nov 2013 #187
So many people own their home or a business... fadedrose Nov 2013 #137
Depends upon how you define socialism Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #144
Rec for Excellent Discussion! 2banon Nov 2013 #151
conversation riverwalker Nov 2013 #153
They can still make it work without oil money Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #188
I think it would only work on a small scale. PlanetaryOrbit Nov 2013 #157
Well that's a silly question. It's NOT fascism of course. Lodestar Nov 2013 #159
welcome to DU gopiscrap Nov 2013 #169
Thanks for the welcome! n/t Lodestar Nov 2013 #190
you're welcome, hope we can learn from you and you us gopiscrap Nov 2013 #191
it follows jesus more closely. pansypoo53219 Nov 2013 #160
I don't think Jesus would have liked capitalism Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #175
It Sure Trumps Capitalism On Steroids - For About 99% Of Us colsohlibgal Nov 2013 #164
I'm not converted... brooklynite Nov 2013 #168
Worked for whom? YoungDemCA Nov 2013 #182
Name a country that has successfully implemented a socialist economic structure? brooklynite Nov 2013 #183
Define "success" YoungDemCA Nov 2013 #184
I've been more of a fan of anarchism. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #176
Great - send me your computer and TV set, will you? brooklynite Nov 2013 #185
Cute. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #186
Not a thing. PowerToThePeople Nov 2013 #180
The big secret no one wants to discuss is Blue_Tires Nov 2013 #192
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»so what is exactly wrong ...»Reply #144